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(LA Times)   If online poker were legal in the US, Al-Qaeda would employ dozens of card sharks to win millions of dollars, and finance several 9/11s all over again   (latimes.com ) divider line
    More: Dumbass, al-Qaeda, United States, Poker Players Alliance, indigenous land rights, Las Vegas Sands Corp., MGM Resorts International, Michael Hiltzik, online gaming  
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3400 clicks; posted to Main » on 17 Feb 2014 at 6:50 AM (2 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-02-17 01:24:19 AM  
How many is that in Marihuana's?
 
2014-02-17 01:29:22 AM  
It's still legal in dozens of other countries, and if they were going to do that, they would have done it already.

Oh, wait.
I forgot.
The United States is the center of the universe.
 
2014-02-17 02:44:41 AM  

TommyymmoT: It's still legal in dozens of other countries, and if they were going to do that, they would have done it already.

Oh, wait.
I forgot.
The United States is the center of the universe.


Yeah -a lot of this.  Also, online gambling was very popular in the US already -before it was made impossible due to hastily created banking laws outlawing the wire transfers.

I miss it a lot.
 
2014-02-17 02:55:08 AM  
What stops someone from making some kind of bot that rationally plays the odds, and raking in money from all the irrational players?

anyone know a good programmer?
 
2014-02-17 03:13:07 AM  

Klaumbaz: What stops someone from making some kind of bot that rationally plays the odds, and raking in money from all the irrational players?

anyone know a good programmer?


Nothing.  It happens.
 
2014-02-17 06:57:23 AM  

Klaumbaz: What stops someone from making some kind of bot that rationally plays the odds, and raking in money from all the irrational players?

anyone know a good programmer?


Better than that, it's easy enough to have 2 or more bots at the same table colluding with each other.  Online poker is a bad idea.
 
2014-02-17 06:57:33 AM  
So no one has learnt the lesson from Prohibition? That banning something people want drives it underground and creates huge and powerful organised crime empires?
 
2014-02-17 07:01:21 AM  

Klaumbaz: What stops someone from making some kind of bot that rationally plays the odds, and raking in money from all the irrational players?


I always assumed on line gambling sites cheat.  While you're counting cards and playing the odds the gambling site is reshuffling the deck so it draws the 2 aces and the queen to give it a full house.
 
2014-02-17 07:01:47 AM  
Wasn't that the plot of Casino Royale?
 
2014-02-17 07:03:20 AM  
"911 times a hundred? Jesus, that's--"

"Yes. 91,100."
 
2014-02-17 07:03:25 AM  
Nah, they'd lose their entire wad on a series of highly improbable river cards to people who knew they were coming.
 
2014-02-17 07:05:38 AM  

Klaumbaz: What stops someone from making some kind of bot that rationally plays the odds, and raking in money from all the irrational players?
anyone know a good programmer?


Bots exist. HUDs exist. Odds assistants exist. They can be detected and your account will be banned, however.

Sharkscope is probably the most popular HUD and it is forbidden to use it on Pokerstars. The client can even detect you just visiting the site while sitting at a table, so watch where you surf when you play poker.

No doubt fraud and cheating do exist, but it's not that easy to get away with it. The most devious schemes are all detected when the fraud analysts are paying attention. The biggest problems have never been bots, however, but rather collusion and stolen credit cards.

Besides, there are no irrational players anymore. The sun set on the golden age of donkeys and fishes years ago. Now there are just hardcore multi-tablers and addicts, and they all play the same way so it's impossible to make any substantial profit anymore. Even the best players hustling 8-tables all day every day don't get much more than 2-3% ROI. It is a grind and it takes forever to make any decent money. You're looking at an income that rivals minimum wage at best.
 
2014-02-17 07:06:13 AM  
Yes, please make online gambling legal again. Suckers need a way to lose money other than the lottery again.
 
2014-02-17 07:07:03 AM  

Frederick: Klaumbaz: What stops someone from making some kind of bot that rationally plays the odds, and raking in money from all the irrational players?

anyone know a good programmer?

Nothing.  It happens.



I have a cousin who has been working on an MORPG where you play casino games, build a casino, etc. (I won't add the first M.  It's not quite massive yet, but they're doing well for a small shop.)
He told me that they had to implement a bit of basic bot detection in their game to try to stop the most obvious forms of bot farming.  They also have the "walking around a city" and playing missions stuff to work with, and not just the table games.  But I can imagine it could get hairy where you're playing for real money and not just changing values in a casino's memory.
 
2014-02-17 07:12:46 AM  
My Al-Qaeda sports bookie is Dr. Fumbles!

It was always Fumbles.
 
2014-02-17 07:14:59 AM  

Klaumbaz: What stops someone from making some kind of bot that rationally plays the odds, and raking in money from all the irrational players?

anyone know a good programmer?


I definitely know one.
 
2014-02-17 07:15:03 AM  

adm_crunch: "911 times a hundred? Jesus, that's--"

"Yes. 91,100."


Does that mean that over nine thousand planes will fly into the WTC?

blog.focalprice.com
 
2014-02-17 07:16:50 AM  
"The Coalition to Stop Internet Gambling was formed by Sheldon Adelson, the chairman and chief executive of Las Vegas Sands, which owns the Venetian on the Las Vegas Strip and has a huge gambling business in Macau."
 
2014-02-17 07:20:29 AM  
Wait, wait, wait. Wait. Wait.Online gambling is illegal?
 
2014-02-17 07:21:44 AM  
There are several US-facing online casinos that aren't particularly difficult to find or deposit real money on to. Withdrawing funds, however, takes a matter of weeks thanks to the current legislation. But they find a way to get your money to you eventually.

I play poker on Bovada and Carbon right now. I don't bet on their sportsbook or play their casino games, but I certainly could if I wanted to. I never keep any more funds than I could easily lose, as any of these sites could be shut down tomorrow by the DOJ.
 
2014-02-17 07:21:53 AM  

rolladuck: He told me that they had to implement a bit of basic bot detection in their game to try to stop the most obvious forms of bot farming.


Forget the bots, your biggest problems with casino software are multiple accounts, player money transfers, collusion and credit card fraud. Especially from foreign countries where corruption and fraud are common (ie: Russia, China, any former Soviet bloc country). Don't worry about actual gameplay so much because that money stays in the system. Pay close attention to deposits (money coming from outside into the game world), but MOST IMPORTANTLY: Pay super close attention to cashouts (money leaving the game world). TRACK THEM LIKE A farkING HAWK. Individually approve each one after an investigation

Money that leaves the gameworld doesn't come back, and if it was procured fraudulently, you need to source the paper trail: Where the money came from, how it was obtained, who the player interacted with to get it, and so on. If the money was earned legitimately, approve the cashout. Any suspicions, deny their request. Don't seize the funds or ban their account, just prevent the money from leaving the gameworld. Their next actions will usually give you more clues on the source of the money (they will either try again or attempt to send the money to someone else). Send them an email explaining your actions. Their response will tell you more. Evaluate, then either approve or ban. Then move onto the next cashout request.

You need a HUGE support department for this, at least 100 people working 24 hours a day monitoring various aspects of the online casino. It is not an easy task to run an online gaming/casino with real money. Rest assured, whatever rule set you employ to prevent cheating and dishonest play, they will find ways around it. You won't catch all the fraud, but you can make it prohibitively cumbersome for the vast majority of gamers to attempt it.
 
2014-02-17 07:24:53 AM  
Sounds like an idea a Neocon would come up with....

*clicks link*

Yep.
 
2014-02-17 07:25:55 AM  

Muta: Klaumbaz: What stops someone from making some kind of bot that rationally plays the odds, and raking in money from all the irrational players?

I always assumed on line gambling sites cheat.  While you're counting cards and playing the odds the gambling site is reshuffling the deck so it draws the 2 aces and the queen to give it a full house.


Not for poker. Poker is played at a table vs other players, not the house. The house simply takes a 1-2% cut of all bets. It's therefore much better for them to become respected and trustworthy - they'll make way, way, more taking that 1-2% from millions of players happily paying it, than they ever would scamming a few hundred players with a bot and an unwinnable table.
 
2014-02-17 07:29:18 AM  
Actually, traditionally gambling has been one of the big standard businesses for money-laundering for a couple centuries since organized crime has been a thing.  That's one of the reasons that the feds are so willing to help crack down on it on a regular basis, and why this is even a question where for other forms of internet shopping the states have very limited power to regulate.

It probably  would be used to move cash around by large criminal organizations.  Probably not al Quaeda, but the Cartels would be on that shiat in milliseconds.

// The states don't like it for different reasons, ranging from religion in places like Utah to the state having a monopoly on gambling and fearing more efficient/convenient private competition in places like Texas to strong lobbies by the tribes in New Mexico and Oklahoma.
 
2014-02-17 07:30:39 AM  

Klaumbaz: What stops someone from making some kind of bot that rationally plays the odds, and raking in money from all the irrational players?

anyone know a good programmer?


No Limit and Bluffing.

From what I've heard, bots are fine for low to mid stakes limit games, in fact, that's probably where they are best.  No Limit and Bluffing, however, fark them all sorts of ways.

The people seeking to ban it (though it's already legal in 3 states and DC) are just making this shiat up as they go so they can avoid the competition with their casinos.  Hell, some of the people tryng to kill it further, are the same people who were against banning it before.
 
2014-02-17 07:46:33 AM  

Flint Ironstag: So no one has learnt the lesson from Prohibition? That banning something people want drives it underground and creates huge and powerful organised crime empires?


Shirley you are not arguing against more, bigger government involvement in our lives and are advocating a some sort of Somalian Utopia.  People cannot be trusted to look after their own interests and need government to protect them from themselves as well as each other. Let us nto forget the need to regulate everything from shower head water flows to the size of your fountain drink.


On a less sarcastic note it does not take making something illegal for organized crime to get involved.  High taxes on cigarettes, booze and gambling winnings (where  legal)  have lead organized crime offering  cheaper alternatives.
 
2014-02-17 07:55:09 AM  
Certain Republicans (probably casino business owners) will oppose online gambling because it will cut into their brick and mortar casinos.

Certain Democrats will oppose it on the grounds that, like regular gambling, it is very regressive in terms of a tax on the poor.  Online gambling means less monitoring and the ease of doing it from home.

Most Libertarians will probably NOT oppose it on the grounds of "state's rights" and "let people do whatever the hell they want".

Who knows how it will turn out.
 
2014-02-17 08:07:25 AM  

DerAppie: adm_crunch: "911 times a hundred? Jesus, that's--"

"Yes. 91,100."

Does that mean that over nine thousand planes will fly into the WTC?


no, it means we better start building more wtc

/seriously though, stop likening shiat like this to 9/11, it's bullshiat and not even on the same plane
//just realized that pun
///I'm terrible for thinking it... more so for leaving it... where's my hand basket?
 
2014-02-17 08:13:25 AM  
Bet all you motherfarkers who mock New Jersey wish you were here where I can play poker any damn time I want.

/unfortunately the geo-location software is a little wonky
//and the player pool is limited to other people in New Jersey
 
2014-02-17 08:18:25 AM  

wildcardjack: Wasn't that the plot of Casino Royale?


Casino Royale had a plot?
 
2014-02-17 08:29:22 AM  

kronicfeld: wildcardjack: Wasn't that the plot of Casino Royale?

Casino Royale had a plot?



Well, you could call it that.....
 
2014-02-17 08:29:45 AM  

brobdiggy: Certain Republicans (probably casino business owners) will oppose online gambling because it will cut into their brick and mortar casinos.

Certain Democrats will oppose it on the grounds that, like regular gambling, it is very regressive in terms of a tax on the poor.  Online gambling means less monitoring and the ease of doing it from home.

Most Libertarians will probably NOT oppose it on the grounds of "state's rights" and "let people do whatever the hell they want".

Who knows how it will turn out.


Hate that phrase and the corresponding mentality. It just seems so condescending, as if those certain Democrats you refer to believe poor people aren't capable of making decisions about their money in the same way as everyone else and need to have the choice taken out of their hands. I've been poor, and I never felt obligated to gamble - it isn't a 'tax' and shouldn't be referred to as such.
 
2014-02-17 08:31:43 AM  

brobdiggy: Certain Republicans (probably casino business owners) will oppose online gambling because it will cut into their brick and mortar casinos.

Certain Democrats will oppose it on the grounds that, like regular gambling, it is very regressive in terms of a tax on the poor.  Online gambling means less monitoring and the ease of doing it from home.

Most Libertarians will probably NOT oppose it on the grounds of "state's rights" and "let people do whatever the hell they want".

Who knows how it will turn out.


Your Party line analogies don't play out right.  Some Democrats like Harry Reid favor on line gambling only in a way that protects the casinos:



"Mr. Reid's office is considering language that would allow only existing casinos, horse tracks and slot-machine makers to operate online poker websites for the first two years after the bill passes, which could limit the ability of other companies to enter the market"Link
 
2014-02-17 08:32:20 AM  

Didn't like that old image.....here's another take:


movieposters.2038.net

 
2014-02-17 08:33:05 AM  
The government is not getting its taxes, fees, and kickbacks from online poker. They are getting those from casinos. Any competitors get raided.
 
2014-02-17 08:39:26 AM  

brobdiggy: Certain Republicans (probably casino business owners) will oppose online gambling because it will cut into their brick and mortar casinos.

Certain Democrats will oppose it on the grounds that, like regular gambling, it is very regressive in terms of a tax on the poor.  Online gambling means less monitoring and the ease of doing it from home.

Most Libertarians will probably NOT oppose it on the grounds of "state's rights" and "let people do whatever the hell they want".

Who knows how it will turn out.


Ron Paul and Barney Frank proposed legislation together to make it legal. It failed.
 
2014-02-17 08:52:05 AM  
How many Truthers you think this just gave birth to?
 
2014-02-17 09:03:36 AM  

ApeShaft: "The Coalition to Stop Internet Gambling was formed by Sheldon Adelson, the chairman and chief executive of Las Vegas Sands, which owns the Venetian on the Las Vegas Strip and has a huge gambling business in Macau."


Ha! Because as we all know, off-line gambling can never be used to launder money.
 
2014-02-17 09:11:17 AM  
Sheldon Adelson should stick to what he knows best: sending Mormon missionaries to Israel, sewing tzitzis on their garmies, and paying them a little to deliver his newspapers.
 
2014-02-17 09:35:19 AM  
Still more worried about the gambling on Wall St and employing of shady "rating agencies" then any terrorism or online poker.
 
2014-02-17 09:55:47 AM  
Card sharps?
 
2014-02-17 09:57:31 AM  

Muta: Klaumbaz: What stops someone from making some kind of bot that rationally plays the odds, and raking in money from all the irrational players?

I always assumed on line gambling sites cheat.  While you're counting cards and playing the odds the gambling site is reshuffling the deck so it draws the 2 aces and the queen to give it a full house.


Go Fish.
 
2014-02-17 09:58:55 AM  
Read the headline fully expecting this was going to involve that Republican nutter Peter King from New York.
 
2014-02-17 10:22:43 AM  

Ishkur: Klaumbaz: What stops someone from making some kind of bot that rationally plays the odds, and raking in money from all the irrational players?
anyone know a good programmer?

Bots exist. HUDs exist. Odds assistants exist. They can be detected and your account will be banned, however.

Sharkscope is probably the most popular HUD and it is forbidden to use it on Pokerstars. The client can even detect you just visiting the site while sitting at a table, so watch where you surf when you play poker.

No doubt fraud and cheating do exist, but it's not that easy to get away with it. The most devious schemes are all detected when the fraud analysts are paying attention. The biggest problems have never been bots, however, but rather collusion and stolen credit cards.

Besides, there are no irrational players anymore. The sun set on the golden age of donkeys and fishes years ago. Now there are just hardcore multi-tablers and addicts, and they all play the same way so it's impossible to make any substantial profit anymore. Even the best players hustling 8-tables all day every day don't get much more than 2-3% ROI. It is a grind and it takes forever to make any decent money. You're looking at an income that rivals minimum wage at best.


Was going to post similar. Easier to make more money with less stress through a normal job.
Have at times had player authentication prompts pop up while on Pokerstars when I was playing well. Their software is always watching. When I complained their admin said to take it as a compliment.
 
2014-02-17 12:51:50 PM  

Klaumbaz: What stops someone from making some kind of bot that rationally plays the odds, and raking in money from all the irrational players?

anyone know a good programmer?


If you write a bot that rationally plays the cards based on EV, pot odds and true odds, that bot would get absoultely crushed.  To put it more bluntly, any player (real or virtual) that acts in a consistent and predictable way will always lose when playing against observant players.  Or to put it another way, in the vocabulary of game theory, any exploitive strategy is also inherently exploitable.

Strong-tight is a good primary style for a lot of tables, but it will get utterly crushed if it is your only style.
 
2014-02-17 01:03:04 PM  

Ishkur: Klaumbaz: What stops someone from making some kind of bot that rationally plays the odds, and raking in money from all the irrational players?
anyone know a good programmer?

Bots exist. HUDs exist. Odds assistants exist. They can be detected and your account will be banned, however.

Sharkscope is probably the most popular HUD and it is forbidden to use it on Pokerstars. The client can even detect you just visiting the site while sitting at a table, so watch where you surf when you play poker.

No doubt fraud and cheating do exist, but it's not that easy to get away with it. The most devious schemes are all detected when the fraud analysts are paying attention. The biggest problems have never been bots, however, but rather collusion and stolen credit cards.

Besides, there are no irrational players anymore. The sun set on the golden age of donkeys and fishes years ago. Now there are just hardcore multi-tablers and addicts, and they all play the same way so it's impossible to make any substantial profit anymore. Even the best players hustling 8-tables all day every day don't get much more than 2-3% ROI. It is a grind and it takes forever to make any decent money. You're looking at an income that rivals minimum wage at best.


I play live tournament poker at the local indian casino two or three times a week (buy-ins ranging from $60 rebuys to $230, usually about 70 to 150 players)).  I read about the game, examine my own play, analyze the situations I am in, run simulations (with poker stove and some home grown scripts I wrote).  And the conclusion I reached is that there are about 10% of the players that are better than me, about 50%% that are as good as me, and then the remaining 40% of the players that have noticeably exploitable habits.   I about break even in my play.  It is really hard to make money playing poker anymore.

I am hoping that legalized online gambling leads to another surge of hyper-aggressive, poker player wannabes to loosen up the game.  I am not talking about the young guys who are hyper-aggressive and good, but the guys who watch those guys and try to emulate them without the deeper understanding of the game.  Those guys are great to play with.
 
2014-02-17 01:07:14 PM  
Good luck getting your money out of them Al-Qaeda.
 
m00
2014-02-17 02:11:41 PM  
You know what? As long as we have freedoms such as privacy and speech, the terrorists will have something to take away. Anyone who believes in freedom is pro-terrorist.
 
2014-02-17 03:09:13 PM  

m00: You know what? As long as we have freedoms such as privacy and speech, the terrorists will have something to take away. Anyone who believes in freedom is pro-terrorist.


I don't know if this is meant to be a little snarky, but this is the truth.  No free society will ever be able to prevent terrorism.  Security comes only at the price of individual freedom.  All the people clamoring for the government to doe something about terrorism\injuries due to improper use of products\food related health issues\exposure to indecent material on TV\blah blah blah create an environment conducive to losing our individual freedom.  Sadly, I do not thijnk the genie can be put back in the bottle, as the culture of no personal responsibility is too firmly entrenched
 
2014-02-17 04:03:31 PM  

RminusQ: Bet all you motherfarkers who mock New Jersey wish you were here where I can play poker any damn time I want.

/unfortunately the geo-location software is a little wonky
//and the player pool is limited to other people in New Jersey


I intentionally take flight layovers through LAS so I can play on wsop.com in vegas.  I hear the player pool in NJ is larger, but they dont' fly from Detroit -> New Jersey -> California.
 
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