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(NPR)   One in four Americans think the sun goes around the Earth. No word how many think the Earth is actually flat and located atop four elephants which themselves are balanced upon a giant turtle   (npr.org ) divider line
    More: Fail, Americans, turtles  
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6993 clicks; posted to Main » on 15 Feb 2014 at 5:45 AM (2 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-02-15 10:41:14 AM  
A view of Venus, black dot at top center, passing in front of the sun

As far as dots go that is one huge motherflucking dot
 
2014-02-15 10:48:56 AM  

GrizzlyPouch: gameshowhost: Well, how many people voted for a Tea Party candidate?  Say that represents ~20% of the number who believe in the elephant thing.  Then add in Kansas.  About 60% of the South... 

Jesus Christ, something like 60m Americans believe that.

When I think too dumb to know the earth revolves around the sun I generally think hipster guy with tats and gauges and dumb girl that's like totally not worried about like that smart people stuff (and I associate those people with being liberal voters), and honey boo boo's mom (definitely conservative voting but that's cause Jesus told me too). I definitely don't associate the honey boo boo mouth breather type with being interested in concepts like taxation being an inhibitor to job growth

Where does this perception come from that Tea Partiers are these cold calculating evil people who think the poors should be more bootstrappy and the government redistributes too much of our money, yet at the same time they can't understand basic concepts like gravity?

When have you ever come across that person in real life?

Or were you just being snarky because you don't like them? (Not very progressive of you by the way. Do you think they should be more bootstrappy about their ignorance?)


Living in the south, I see them everywhere and interact with them on a regular basis.

The Tea Party folks are still holding meetings around here (I see the dated signs advertising meetings).
 
2014-02-15 10:50:40 AM  

HindiDiscoMonster: Fubini: In the same survey, just 39 percent answered correctly (true) that "The universe began with a huge explosion"

Uh, but that's wrong. The most accurate model of the universe's early life starts out with the universe being physically small, and then rapidly expanding. There is no explosion involved, it's more as though you had a very high pressure gas contained inside a room, and then that room suddenly grew 1000 times in size. The gas would undergo significant cooling, and the volume that the gas occupies is much larger than previously, but there was no magic explosion of gas that brought the gas into being... the gas was already there to begin with. Likewise, all the matter and energy in the universe was there at the start, but it rapidly cooled and expanded in response to the expansion of the early universe.

so, what you are trying to say is someone farted...


Ah, the Divine Flatulance theory...

capt.hollister: To all those who defend the ignorant by claiming that not knowing that the Earth rotates around the sun comes from being distracted on that one day when it was taught in class, I say BS.

IMO, it actually comes out of a complete lack of intellectual curiosity. It comes from not reading.  It comes from never watching documentaries. It comes from hanging around with people who are just as intellectually deprived as they are. It comes, in short, from being willfully ignorant about the world.

And IMO there is no valid excuse for this.


I agree completely... I can't understand the "useless trivia" quips... We're not talking about highly technical esoterica here, but basic information about how the universe works... I can understand someone not knowing the finer details of special relativity or quantum mechanics or whatever, but not knowing the Earth goes around the Sun? I can't even fathom how it's possible to not know that... Maybe if you were raised by wolves or something...
 
2014-02-15 10:56:01 AM  

pxlboy: The Tea Party folks are still holding meetings around here (I see the dated signs advertising meetings).


Our core group meets *daily* at a local diner.
 
2014-02-15 10:57:58 AM  

Lenny_da_Hog: GrizzlyPouch: gameshowhost: Well, how many people voted for a Tea Party candidate?  Say that represents ~20% of the number who believe in the elephant thing.  Then add in Kansas.  About 60% of the South... 

Jesus Christ, something like 60m Americans believe that.

When I think too dumb to know the earth revolves around the sun I generally think hipster guy with tats and gauges and dumb girl that's like totally not worried about like that smart people stuff (and I associate those people with being liberal voters), and honey boo boo's mom (definitely conservative voting but that's cause Jesus told me too). I definitely don't associate the honey boo boo mouth breather type with being interested in concepts like taxation being an inhibitor to job growth

Where does this perception come from that Tea Partiers are these cold calculating evil people who think the poors should be more bootstrappy and the government redistributes too much of our money, yet at the same time they can't understand basic concepts like gravity?

When have you ever come across that person in real life?

Or were you just being snarky because you don't like them? (Not very progressive of you by the way. Do you think they should be more bootstrappy about their ignorance?)

I live in a rural area of Oregon, less than an hour away from Portland. I see both types regularly.

Out here in the sticks, there are the Tea Party rubes. The problem with them is they will fight and fight to keep other people from learning. They want enemies. Enemies make them powerful. They will refuse to admit they're wrong about anything and will just threaten you and call you stupid. As long as they have a friend to back them up, that is. They depend on denial and anger to maintain their beliefs.

The dumber hipster types you describe more or less believe in extra-reality -- they know extra things about the universe, like auras and fluoride and TM and contrails and urban farming being able to provide for everyone. If they get a petty fact like the earth's rotation and orbit wrong, they're not going to fight with you about it. They'll deflect -- "But dude!" They'll get mad and call you names if you deny their extra-real theories, but they'll either cave, deflect, or rationalize, rather than outright deny, well-explained concepts.


I live in South Mississippi (see more of the Honey Boo Boos than the extra reality types understandably). The people that associate themselves with the tea party here are your typical middle class average joe. They go to church, have jobs and still know the moon isn't held up with a bungee cord. And they're as annoyed by the mouth breathing, Jeebus loving, living on disability at thirty people as they are by the thirty yr old with five kids by five different dads. They aren't racist (like I see claimed on FARK a lot) and they don't have a fark you get more bootstrappy attitude like I also see claimed on fark. But they do work hard and they don't like seeing the benefits of their labor given to people too lazy or ignorant to help themselves with no questions asked. I don't think that's a crazy attitude, you probably feel the same way yourself.

For some reason FARK has a misperception of the average Southerner (probly because we ran the crazies off and sent them y'all's way. Sorry. We get some of your crazies to)
 
2014-02-15 11:00:39 AM  

offmymeds: A quarter of Americans surveyed could not correctly answer that the Earth revolves around the sun and not the other way around, according to a report out Friday from the National Science Foundation.

WE'RE NUMBER 1!!! WE'RE NUMBER 1!!! USA!!! USA111!!!

[i.chzbgr.com image 500x301]


FSU's No. 1!
Moran
 
2014-02-15 11:01:17 AM  
Correction:  1 in 4 Americans don't think.  Period.
 
2014-02-15 11:01:57 AM  
Behold the Turtle of enormous girth
Upon his shell he holds the Earth
Roland approves
 
2014-02-15 11:04:57 AM  

memebot_of_doom: Mr. Right: One book that stands out in my mind to this day was a book titled Time.  Don't remember the author or publisher but it was a relatively small book with a fair number of pictures aimed at elementary readers.

Out of curiosity I did a quick search, but there are a lot of juvenile books called Time.

[img.fark.net image 400x430]


I have no doubt.  And the one I had would have been published right around or prior to 1960 - you know, back in the day when sundials and hourglasses were still used.  I'd bet that it has long since been rotated out of the library.  But back in the day, it certainly made an impression on me.

One of the things that has struck me in the intervening years, is the number of youngsters I know - and most of them are above average intelligence and go to the "better" public schools - who have no idea why the polar circles are drawn on the globe where they are, or, for that matter, why the Tropics are placed at the latitude they are.  They claim that is not taught anymore.  I don't know if that's true or they just didn't pay attention or read that chapter.  It's probably not a big deal in terms of world knowledge or the advancement of science and industry around the globe but I find it curious nonetheless.
 
2014-02-15 11:08:43 AM  
Great.  We're getting more stupid.  Just a few years ago, it was 1 in 5 people that thought the sun revolved around the earth.
 
2014-02-15 11:11:34 AM  

GrizzlyPouch: I live in South Mississippi (see more of the Honey Boo Boos than the extra reality types understandably). The people that associate themselves with the tea party here are your typical middle class average joe. They go to church, have jobs and still know the moon isn't held up with a bungee cord. And they're as annoyed by the mouth breathing, Jeebus loving, living on disability at thirty people as they are by the thirty yr old with five kids by five different dads. They aren't racist (like I see claimed on FARK a lot) and they don't have a fark you get more bootstrappy attitude like I also see claimed on fark. But they do work hard and they don't like seeing the benefits of their labor given to people too lazy or ignorant to help themselves with no questions asked. I don't think that's a crazy attitude, you probably feel the same way yourself.

For some reason FARK has a misperception of the average Southerner (probly because we ran the crazies off and sent them y'all's way. Sorry. We get some of your crazies to)


As I said, they rely on denial and anger.

The Tea Party welcomes racists. It's filled with dog whistling. Our local group used to openly and loudly use racial epithets to describe the president until it became too much for the diner to explain to its other customers. They toned it down by referring to all blacks as "J-B" -- "That J-B Obama is just catering to all those J-B muslims and their J-B supremacy white-hating asses..."

You can figure out what J-B stands for.

The anger is stupid traditionalism from the Southern church-village mentality. I've spent a *lot* of time throughout the South, including several passes through Mississippi, and yes, Mississippi harbors a great deal of racism and anti-intellectualism within its borders. That "average Joe" you speak of is too uninformed to realize he's handing his entire life away to people that want to diminish his quality of life, simply because someone told him that someone out there might not be working as hard as he is for the same money and has told him he should be angry about it.

That's not a calculated economic position. It's anger and just-world fallacy.

You realize Mississippi has the worst education system in the US, right? That's quantifiable data, not some stereotype.
 
2014-02-15 11:17:50 AM  
Still waiting for Fark's geocentrist to make an appearance ITT.
 
2014-02-15 11:21:08 AM  

theorellior: Fark_Guy_Rob: // For the record, I'm one of those who was told the Earth goes around the Sun. So I memorized it. It has proved to be completely useless information for me. Never once was I like, 'No wait! The Earth goes around the Sun, so I need to turn Left here and not Right'. Outside of some specific career paths, it's just useless trivia.

Fortunately there have been people throughout history that didn't have such a pragmatic outlook, which is why you're posting this on the Internet instead of scratching in the dirt with a stick for some grubs.


Not, not at all.

What I'm saying is, if you want to be a football player, you should be good at football.  You should care about football.  You should know about football.  But if you *aren't* a football player, why should you know what a wide receiver is verse a tight-end?  Maybe you do know it, maybe you don't; but it's neither good, nor bad.

I'm all for people who enjoy intellectual pursuits and yes, society benefits from it (and so do the individuals bringing those benefits, so it's mutually beneficial.  Everyone wins).  I just don't see a problem with a society where 25% of the population doesn't know some particular fact.

I don't consider myself particularly smart or well educated, but I do have both a bachelor's degree and a master's degree (both in computer science).  As it happened, I've *never* taken any class covered anatomy.  Yes, I'm glad my doctor has and I'm glad my surgeon has....but beyond the song 'Head, shoulder, knees and toes' I don't know much of anything.  So what?  Enough knowledge to answer some very basic questions wouldn't help me in any practical situation.  But that doesn't mean doctors shouldn't learn it.  It means we shouldn't care that everyone doesn't know it.  Even if everyone did know basic anatomy, we wouldn't be any better off.  Basic knowledge of anatomy is a building block to useful stuff, same as basic physics.  The 'Earth goes around the Sun' tidbit has no intrinsic value without an awfully large amount of other information.  Even if you took someone who knows the Earth goes around the Sun now, and sent them back to a time/culture where they thought it was the other way around, they couldn't do anything or provide any real evidence beyond 'No trust me, Mrs Jones told me so).  Unless you happen to get someone who has a true passion for astronomy or physics.

There are lots and lots and lots of areas to study.  I got through college without taking chemistry, biology, art, photography, any physical education stuff, geology, business, political science, elementary ed, fire science, rotc, and an endless list of other topics.  And going to college isn't a requirement to being an intelligent, happy, productive member of society.

Again, I just don't see why anyone would be concerned about 25% of the population not knowing a particular trivia question on a topic they clearly either haven't studied or aren't interested in.
 
2014-02-15 11:22:52 AM  
Not a single mention of how and where the sample group was chosen. Junk science meets yellow journalism.

Trying to attach the survey answers to any one demographic or political group is just assinine. This is Fark, though.
 
2014-02-15 11:28:17 AM  

socodog: Not a single mention of how and where the sample group was chosen. Junk science meets yellow journalism.

Trying to attach the survey answers to any one demographic or political group is just assinine. This is Fark, though.


Agreed, it's not even just the sample that's the concern.  It could have been poor phrasing of the question.
 
2014-02-15 11:29:57 AM  

The_Philosopher_King: Teach the Controversy

[img.fark.net image 850x637]


Awesome!!!
+1 internets
 
2014-02-15 11:33:08 AM  

Lenny_da_Hog: GrizzlyPouch: I live in South Mississippi (see more of the Honey Boo Boos than the extra reality types understandably). The people that associate themselves with the tea party here are your typical middle class average joe. They go to church, have jobs and still know the moon isn't held up with a bungee cord. And they're as annoyed by the mouth breathing, Jeebus loving, living on disability at thirty people as they are by the thirty yr old with five kids by five different dads. They aren't racist (like I see claimed on FARK a lot) and they don't have a fark you get more bootstrappy attitude like I also see claimed on fark. But they do work hard and they don't like seeing the benefits of their labor given to people too lazy or ignorant to help themselves with no questions asked. I don't think that's a crazy attitude, you probably feel the same way yourself.

For some reason FARK has a misperception of the average Southerner (probly because we ran the crazies off and sent them y'all's way. Sorry. We get some of your crazies to)

As I said, they rely on denial and anger.

The Tea Party welcomes racists. It's filled with dog whistling. Our local group used to openly and loudly use racial epithets to describe the president until it became too much for the diner to explain to its other customers. They toned it down by referring to all blacks as "J-B" -- "That J-B Obama is just catering to all those J-B muslims and their J-B supremacy white-hating asses..."

You can figure out what J-B stands for.

The anger is stupid traditionalism from the Southern church-village mentality. I've spent a *lot* of time throughout the South, including several passes through Mississippi, and yes, Mississippi harbors a great deal of racism and anti-intellectualism within its borders. That "average Joe" you speak of is too uninformed to realize he's handing his entire life away to people that want to diminish his quality of life, simply because someone told him that someone out there might not be working as hard as he is for the same money and has told him he should be angry about it.

That's not a calculated economic position. It's anger and just-world fallacy.

You realize Mississippi has the worst education system in the US, right? That's quantifiable data, not some stereotype.


Yes I do, and that's a shame. But my point was the Tea Party (as the name implies ...it is a reference to the Boston Tea party after all) is disillusioned with big government and taxes...they arent the racist people you're describing. Racism getting associated with actual people who have Tea Party ideals is a misconception.
 
2014-02-15 11:33:11 AM  

capt.hollister: To all those who defend the ignorant by claiming that not knowing that the Earth rotates around the sun comes from being distracted on that one day when it was taught in class, I say BS.

IMO, it actually comes out of a complete lack of intellectual curiosity. It comes from not reading.  It comes from never watching documentaries. It comes from hanging around with people who are just as intellectually deprived as they are. It comes, in short, from being willfully ignorant about the world.

And IMO there is no valid excuse for this.


I'm not defending them by suggesting they might have been absent from class one day.  I'm agreeing with you.  But I'm questioning why there needs to be an excuse at all?  Why is one better than the other?

I spent my entire life living in typical US houses and apartments.  I was 25 when I bought a run-down condo in Chicago.  I'd never been exposed to things like electrical work (even though the basics of circuits were covered in school), plumbing, carpentry, any of that.  I didn't have any tools either.  Entire industries are based around this stuff, it's HUGE, and I spent my whole life not caring at all.  Until I had a reason.  And while I did manage to renovate my place, and later a house, in both cases, it was just the tip of the ice-berg.  I just managed to learn how much I still don't know.  You could spend a lifetime learning this stuff.

I guess I get a pass there, because I did start to learn it.  But if I'd never bought a condo (or if I had money to afford one that was in good condition) I never would have questioned the magic that makes my lights turn on or my toilet work or even how a door is hung and manages to work.  I certainly never would have thought different techniques for joining pieces of wood and making furniture.

But, at the same time, I've never touched anything on my car.  Again, an entire industry worth of information to be learned.  And I haven't bothered.  So yeah, I lack the intellectual curiosity to learn how my brakes work and how to replace my break pads.  But so what?  I pay some guy to do it.

I have friends who spent their whole life working on cars, one eventually moved on to airplane engines.  And he's exactly the kind of guy who wouldn't be able to tell you what makes a rainbow (beyond rain and sun) and he might even get the sun/earth question wrong.  Still, he's restored a few classic cars and keeps 747s up in the air - things I both haven't bothered to learn anything about.

There are lots of things to be interested in.  I'm not going to hold it against someone for them not knowing something because I decide they should.  Particularly when it doesn't impact them on a daily basis.
 
2014-02-15 11:34:07 AM  

sbchamp: offmymeds: A quarter of Americans surveyed could not correctly answer that the Earth revolves around the sun and not the other way around, according to a report out Friday from the National Science Foundation.

WE'RE NUMBER 1!!! WE'RE NUMBER 1!!! USA!!! USA111!!!

[i.chzbgr.com image 500x301]

FSU's No. 1!
Moran


HA!!!
 
2014-02-15 11:35:38 AM  

Ker_Thwap: socodog: Not a single mention of how and where the sample group was chosen. Junk science meets yellow journalism.

Trying to attach the survey answers to any one demographic or political group is just assinine. This is Fark, though.

Agreed, it's not even just the sample that's the concern.  It could have been poor phrasing of the question.


Well, except for the fact that they linked directly to the detailed National Science Foundation report itself right there in the article. (PDF)
 
2014-02-15 11:41:44 AM  

GrizzlyPouch: Yes I do, and that's a shame. But my point was the Tea Party (as the name implies ...it is a reference to the Boston Tea party after all) is disillusioned with big government and taxes...they arent the racist people you're describing. Racism getting associated with actual people who have Tea Party ideals is a misconception.


Tea Party ideals are what the GOP has told the Tea Party to hold as ideals.

The Tea Party isn't for anything. They're just against things. That's why racists are more than welcome. As long as you're going to be an enemy of the Democrats, you can be a Teabagger.

Does it really make sense to sacrifice national subsidies to your own child's education based on a "principle" that Peter might get a dollar less subsidy than Paul? Hell, let's just throw the entire Department of Education away -- that's the Tea Party way!

Astoundingly, that also corresponds with what corporate overlords want for us to do. They want us to be ignorant and indebted to them in order to keep us all from getting uppity, but that's just a coincidence -- just as big of a coincidence as the Teabaggers magically appearing after the GOP screwed up so bad that nobody could stand upright and call themselves "Republicans" for a couple of years.

In the South, your values are held together by little community and church hierarchies. There's constant peck-peck-pecking to put everyone into a social order. "Tea Party Values" is just an extension of that same hierarchy.

"GOP said it, I believe it, that settles it."
 
2014-02-15 11:49:09 AM  
In the beginning the Universe was created.
This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move
 
2014-02-15 11:50:16 AM  

Lenny_da_Hog: GrizzlyPouch: Yes I do, and that's a shame. But my point was the Tea Party (as the name implies ...it is a reference to the Boston Tea party after all) is disillusioned with big government and taxes...they arent the racist people you're describing. Racism getting associated with actual people who have Tea Party ideals is a misconception.

Tea Party ideals are what the GOP has told the Tea Party to hold as ideals.

The Tea Party isn't for anything. They're just against things. That's why racists are more than welcome. As long as you're going to be an enemy of the Democrats, you can be a Teabagger.

Does it really make sense to sacrifice national subsidies to your own child's education based on a "principle" that Peter might get a dollar less subsidy than Paul? Hell, let's just throw the entire Department of Education away -- that's the Tea Party way!

Astoundingly, that also corresponds with what corporate overlords want for us to do. They want us to be ignorant and indebted to them in order to keep us all from getting uppity, but that's just a coincidence -- just as big of a coincidence as the Teabaggers magically appearing after the GOP screwed up so bad that nobody could stand upright and call themselves "Republicans" for a couple of years.

In the South, your values are held together by little community and church hierarchies. There's constant peck-peck-pecking to put everyone into a social order. "Tea Party Values" is just an extension of that same hierarchy.

"GOP said it, I believe it, that settles it."


Well I'm from the south and I associate myself with the tea party. Do you get that impression from me?

You're as bad as any bigot if you take a small sampling of people and assume the whole group is the same. Is one bigot better than another?
 
2014-02-15 11:57:42 AM  

Lenny_da_Hog: GrizzlyPouch: Yes I do, and that's a shame. But my point was the Tea Party (as the name implies ...it is a reference to the Boston Tea party after all) is disillusioned with big government and taxes...they arent the racist people you're describing. Racism getting associated with actual people who have Tea Party ideals is a misconception.

Tea Party ideals are what the GOP has told the Tea Party to hold as ideals.

The Tea Party isn't for anything. They're just against things. That's why racists are more than welcome. As long as you're going to be an enemy of the Democrats, you can be a Teabagger.

Does it really make sense to sacrifice national subsidies to your own child's education based on a "principle" that Peter might get a dollar less subsidy than Paul? Hell, let's just throw the entire Department of Education away -- that's the Tea Party way!

Astoundingly, that also corresponds with what corporate overlords want for us to do. They want us to be ignorant and indebted to them in order to keep us all from getting uppity, but that's just a coincidence -- just as big of a coincidence as the Teabaggers magically appearing after the GOP screwed up so bad that nobody could stand upright and call themselves "Republicans" for a couple of years.

In the South, your values are held together by little community and church hierarchies. There's constant peck-peck-pecking to put everyone into a social order. "Tea Party Values" is just an extension of that same hierarchy.

"GOP said it, I believe it, that settles it."


I know you think you're educated and you probably fervently believe everything you write about the Tea Party.  But everything you've written about them is exactly what the Democrat Party and other rabidly leftist partisans have published.  You may or may not have noticed, but liberal Democrats, and especially the more rabid amongst them, have only the most tenuous of relationships with the truth, most apparent when talking abut their political opponents.  Being a parrot/shill/useful idiot is neither a noble career path nor indicative of any native intelligence or intellectual honesty.
 
2014-02-15 11:58:31 AM  
In other news, a substabtial number of people don't take random surveys seriously and are likely to give bullshiat answers.
 
2014-02-15 12:13:03 PM  

GrizzlyPouch: Well I'm from the south and I associate myself with the tea party. Do you get that impression from me?

You're as bad as any bigot if you take a small sampling of people and assume the whole group is the same. Is one bigot better than another?


There are always exceptions, but demographics work for advertisers and campaigners for a reason.

It's much easier to control a milion people than to control one.
 
2014-02-15 12:22:22 PM  

Mr. Right: I know you think you're educated and you probably fervently believe everything you write about the Tea Party.  But everything you've written about them is exactly what the Democrat Party and other rabidly leftist partisans have published.  You may or may not have noticed, but liberal Democrats, and especially the more rabid amongst them, have only the most tenuous of relationships with the truth, most apparent when talking abut their political opponents.  Being a parrot/shill/useful idiot is neither a noble career path nor indicative of any native intelligence or intellectual honesty.


Peck-peck-peck, defend-defend-defend, anti-intellectual swipe, blah, blah, blah.

I already talked about left-wing crazies above.
 
2014-02-15 12:23:03 PM  
i.chzbgr.com

Intelligence is a myth, competence is real.
 
2014-02-15 12:28:45 PM  
A hole 2,200 people surveyed. Think that says everything I need to know about this.
 
2014-02-15 12:37:41 PM  

Fubini: In the same survey, just 39 percent answered correctly (true) that "The universe began with a huge explosion"

Uh, but that's wrong. The most accurate model of the universe's early life starts out with the universe being physically small, and then rapidly expanding. There is no explosion involved, it's more as though you had a very high pressure gas contained inside a room, and then that room suddenly grew 1000 times in size. The gas would undergo significant cooling, and the volume that the gas occupies is much larger than previously, but there was no magic explosion of gas that brought the gas into being... the gas was already there to begin with. Likewise, all the matter and energy in the universe was there at the start, but it rapidly cooled and expanded in response to the expansion of the early universe.


Came here for this. If you asked me that question, I would say false.
 
2014-02-15 12:38:40 PM  

Theeng: Honestly, I find it more baffling that people equate intelligence with political affiliation.


You never hear a Democratic congressperson refer to the Earth being 8,000 years old.
 
2014-02-15 12:44:10 PM  

Fark_Guy_Rob: As it happened, I've *never* taken any class covered anatomy. Yes, I'm glad my doctor has and I'm glad my surgeon has....but beyond the song 'Head, shoulder, knees and toes' I don't know much of anything. So what? Enough knowledge to answer some very basic questions wouldn't help me in any practical situation. But that doesn't mean doctors shouldn't learn it. It means we shouldn't care that everyone doesn't know it. Even if everyone did know basic anatomy, we wouldn't be any better off. Basic knowledge of anatomy is a building block to useful stuff, same as basic physics. The 'Earth goes around the Sun' tidbit has no intrinsic value without an awfully large amount of other information. Even if you took someone who knows the Earth goes around the Sun now, and sent them back to a time/culture where they thought it was the other way around, they couldn't do anything or provide any real evidence beyond 'No trust me, Mrs Jones told me so). Unless you happen to get someone who has a true passion for astronomy or physics.


I think knowing the Earth goes around the Sun is on the same level as knowing that the heart is the organ that pumps blood through your body or that lungs are what lets you breathe... A very, very simplistic and basic fact that you would almost have to go out of your way to avoid having learned long, long ago... It's not so much that they need to know it, but just that I don't see how the hell they could not! How can you live on this planet and take part in society without having learned such a simple and obvious thing just by hearing others talk about it? And, it's not like they answered the question, "I don't know", which would be somewhat more excusable; instead, they answered completely incorrectly... So, it's not that they simply lacked knowledge, but they actually believed something that was completely and totally wrong... To use your anatomy example, it would be like you claiming to believe that the liver is responsibile for pumping blood, and you breathe via your kidneys...
 
2014-02-15 12:57:28 PM  

Prey4reign: The average IQ in the US is 98.  With a low score of 55 and a high score of 145, that puts the lowest 25% ranging between 55 and 78 which means that one in four Americans are either idiots or are channeling the spirits of 17th century Inquisitors.  That should adequately answer the question.


You might be right.

The median is set at 100 (most people use the word "average" for median so these will say you are wrong). IQ scores have been rising for many valid and possibly some invalidating reasons, so the average this year is much higher than when you took your test. Back in the 1950s a score of 100 was probably equal to something in the low nineties or even eighties possibly. And IQs should come with a range of about 2.5 or 5 points on either side. There is no point gloating over a 5 degree difference. It could be error.

The average should in principle be slightly higher because you can not go below 0. But in reality, people may well be stupider than the median, with more low IQ people than IQ people. 98 could be the correct average but it seems more likely the real average is 101 or so because the geniuses drag the average up and a genius can, in principle, be a lot smarter than the last genius was. IQ is pretty much off the charts at 200, so the number of people with higher IQs is impossible to measure accurately, as are their "real" IQ. A bad day could distort their test results by many points. A bit of luck could drive up their scores by quite a few points.

I'm safe. You could kill 98% of the population based on IQ and I would still be normal or above average. If all people were as smart as I am, nobody would be screwing up my work by sending me emails. There would be almost zero emails without subject lines, there would be few files filed with stupid uninformative names. And of course, nobody would be wasting my time denying evolution or anthropic climate change because the smart people would bully the Sub Geniuses into silence.

People would still push on pull doors, however.
 
2014-02-15 12:57:38 PM  

Son of Thunder: If we find, for example, that there are such things as certain biologically-based psychological gender differences, this does not justify excluding people from careers (women tend to outperform men on verbal tasks, therefore men shouldn't be writers), but on the other hand I will not throw all that research away just because a Gender Studies major yelled "patriarchy" in my face. If someone wants me to deny climate change, show me data, don't just tell me that the theory of anthropogenic climate change is "anti-capitalism".

Your position also assumes that truth is on the side of the chanting horde. In some cases, maybe, but history shows us far too many chanting hordes on the wrong sides of issues to support that assumption.


Data, on its own does not provide theories. Sure, women are better on verbal tasks, but why? The evolutionary psychologist will call it an adaptation ("the cave-women stayed in the cave and gossiped, the cave-men went out hunting and had to STFU so as to not spook the prey"), the gender theorist will call it socialisation. If she shouts at you, it's probably because the recognises that the former view is going to be used argue for limits on what half of humanity should do, whether or not that was the original intent of the researchers.

Of course, we're indulging in a caricature of political criticisms of science, I assume we both have in mind the story that Wilson related (with considerable pride) about being that target of protesters in the 1970s, after the release of Sociobiology, but that's actually a pretty rare occurrence. The chanting horde is actually sitting down and writing papers like every other respectable boring academic. Their opposition is not knee-jerk or irrational (most of the time), but it comes from an understanding of intellectual history and a more nuanced understanding of the interaction between science and society than most scientists seem to possess. And I mostly agree with that (though I used to be a whole lot more positivist). So, take social/environmental factors to always be the default explanation, and I great with extreme scepticism, even more than usual, any claims of biological determinism. I don't think that pointing out the "excesses" of the far left is applicable in this case because I'm not supporting any positive vision on what future society should look like, which you kind of need to justify extreme illiberal measures.

And you know, climate change is anti-capitalist, at least in the sense that averting catastrophic climate change is probably incompatible with an economic system that requires exponential growth. Those conservatives aren't all stupid, quite often they can see the issue a lot more clearly than many middle-of-the-road liberals. The political question is then, what do you prefer? The end of capitalism or... well nobody knows what the consequences of massive global warming will be.
 
2014-02-15 01:05:36 PM  

GrizzlyPouch: But my point was the Tea Party (as the name implies ...it is a reference to the Boston Tea party after all) is disillusioned with big government and taxes...they arent the racist people you're describing. Racism getting associated with actual people who have Tea Party ideals is a misconception.


Bullshiat. Not a peep from these ignorant hillbillies when Bush was spending money like a drunken sailor on the Iraq war, Medicare D, the bank bailout etc., then suddenly they're out in force with their imbecilic misspelled protest signs within a week of Obama's inauguration. There's obviously a Dark motive here; Kenya see what I'm getting at?
 
2014-02-15 01:06:53 PM  
The Great Conspiracy is Stupidity.

I read a SF short story in which a scientist discovers a conspiracy to keep smart people busy and thus prevent progress. The tools of oppression were meetings, conferences, publishing and other wastes of smart people's time.

Anybody who realized that this was being done was made to join the conspiracy. Or they had a mysterious accident.

The aliens behind the conspiracy realized that our giant brains made us our own worst enemies and thus put spanners into the works to keep our knowledge and power from getting ahead of common sense and wisdom.

THIS IS HOW THE WORLD REALLY WORKS.

Now, go back to sleep, Sheeple. Forget this post. Delete emails. Avoid time-wasters and useless meetings, but remember:  it is better to be a live dog in a meeting about the colour of the binder the new data will be thrown away in than it is to be a dead lion with a clear agenda.

Be not over wise, for why shouldst thou perish?

I'm in an Ecclesiaste kind of mood today. Maybe I should go buy some discounted chocolate and binge.
 
2014-02-15 01:09:28 PM  

Lenny_da_Hog: Peck-peck-peck, defend-defend-defend, anti-intellectual swipe, blah, blah, blah.

I already talked about left-wing crazies above.


None of which lends any credence to what you wrote about the Tea Party.  Understand, I don't belong to the Tea Party, nor do I belong to any political party.  But you blather on about them being racist.  That is a charge coming from the more radical Democrats.  But none of those making that charge has been able to point to more than a few very isolated incidents of what may be considered racism and there is no evidence of any widespread racism.

You go on about how the Tea Party is controlled by the GOP.  Nothing could be further from the truth - the establishment Republicans intensely dislike the Tea Party and everything they stand for.  Establishment GOPers do more to undermine the candidacy of Tea Party candidates than Democrats.  Of course, the Democrats are more than wiling to stand  by and hold the coat of the person attacking their opponent.

The fact that you don't know even a few facts but still hew to the party line informs me that you are only parroting.
 
2014-02-15 01:16:50 PM  

Copper Spork: You can do the maths with the Moon taken as the origin, or any other point. It's just much more complicated, and has no benefits.


There are no benefits to land surveying?  Really?  How about the house you live in, the sewer systems that serve it, the roads you use to get to work, and the building you work in?  All of these are built and maintained using an Earth-centered coordinate system, in which the Sun moves around the Earth.  I suppose we could do your lot survey using Sun-centered coordinates or Galaxy-centered coordinates but it would be much more complicated and have no benefits.
 
2014-02-15 01:24:47 PM  

Theeng: I can believe that 25% of Americans were either ignorant or simply didn't care enough to properly answer a question.  Surveys should always be taken with a grain of salt, especially when it's a sample size of just 2,200 people.

Honestly, I find it more baffling that people equate intelligence with political affiliation.


Just the idiots here.
 
2014-02-15 01:29:50 PM  

Bungles: kidgenius: Theeng: I can believe that 25% of Americans were either ignorant or simply didn't care enough to properly answer a question.  Surveys should always be taken with a grain of salt, especially when it's a sample size of just 2,200 people.

Honestly, I find it more baffling that people equate intelligence with political affiliation.

It's not so much that there is a correlation between intelligence and political affiliation, but that people with certain political leanings appear to be actively hostile toward education in general, not to mention science.
 
Well, there is, in a sense. People who score high on fear/disgust reaction tests and low on empathy tests are many, many more times likely to be on the right of the spectrum. It's the best indicator for political affiliation there is outside of asking specifically political questions.High fear/disgust and low empathy also correlates with: preference for the familiar over the new, lack of intellectual curiosity, lack of humour, higher religiosity, higher tribalism (dislike of different races/religions/income demographics).


Lefties are more empathetic. You've proved it with soft science. Let the roundup begin.
 
2014-02-15 01:32:04 PM  

albatros183: MaudlinMutantMollusk: seventypercent: we already did this thread

Over, and over, and over again

/until we actually lower someone over the side this argument will never be settled

I'm pretty sure the turtle is female, that was resolved when we didn't crash into that star



You may mock, but you'll sing a different tune when The Great White Handkerchief Comes.

/brb, gotta run out and buy more underarm deodorant.
 
2014-02-15 01:54:35 PM  
i58.tinypic.com
i62.tinypic.com
 
2014-02-15 02:06:44 PM  

Prey4reign: The average IQ in the US is 98.  With a low score of 55 and a high score of 145, that puts the lowest 25% ranging between 55 and 78 which means that one in four Americans are either idiots or are channeling the spirits of 17th century Inquisitors.  That should adequately answer the question.


I don't think you understand how IQs work. They're specifically designed so 100 would be the average, and to use a bell curve. So 68% fall between 85 and 115, 14% each between 70-85 and 115-130, and around 2% are between 55 and 70. Also they're full of crap, but they're not linear.


Anyway, I'm calling bullshiat on this whole study. When your results run that contrary to common knowledge, it's usually a sign that your study was flawed, not that common knowledge is wrong.
 
2014-02-15 02:14:16 PM  
The survey of 2,200 people in the United States was conducted by the NSF in 2012 and released on Friday

54% of scienticians can't compile survey results in less than 14 months.
 
2014-02-15 02:15:25 PM  
The Sun actually DOES go around the Earth, if the Earth is your point of reference. The mathematics are just simpler when you use the Sun as the point of reference.
 
2014-02-15 02:19:32 PM  
lh6.googleusercontent.com
Princess Celestia laughs at your heliocentric fantasies.
 
2014-02-15 02:25:35 PM  

TOSViolation: The Sun actually DOES go around the Earth, if the Earth is your point of reference. The mathematics are just simpler when you use the Sun as the point of reference.


Both revolve around a common center of mass, which is inside the diameter of the sun.
 
gad
2014-02-15 02:35:28 PM  

Mr. Right: Lenny_da_Hog: GrizzlyPouch: Yes I do, and that's a shame. But my point was the Tea Party (as the name implies ...it is a reference to the Boston Tea party after all) is disillusioned with big government and taxes...they arent the racist people you're describing. Racism getting associated with actual people who have Tea Party ideals is a misconception.

Tea Party ideals are what the GOP has told the Tea Party to hold as ideals.

The Tea Party isn't for anything. They're just against things. That's why racists are more than welcome. As long as you're going to be an enemy of the Democrats, you can be a Teabagger.

Does it really make sense to sacrifice national subsidies to your own child's education based on a "principle" that Peter might get a dollar less subsidy than Paul? Hell, let's just throw the entire Department of Education away -- that's the Tea Party way!

Astoundingly, that also corresponds with what corporate overlords want for us to do. They want us to be ignorant and indebted to them in order to keep us all from getting uppity, but that's just a coincidence -- just as big of a coincidence as the Teabaggers magically appearing after the GOP screwed up so bad that nobody could stand upright and call themselves "Republicans" for a couple of years.

In the South, your values are held together by little community and church hierarchies. There's constant peck-peck-pecking to put everyone into a social order. "Tea Party Values" is just an extension of that same hierarchy.

"GOP said it, I believe it, that settles it."

I know you think you're educated and you probably fervently believe everything you write about the Tea Party.  But everything you've written about them is exactly what the Democrat Party and other rabidly leftist partisans have published.  You may or may not have noticed, but liberal Democrats, and especially the more rabid amongst them, have only the most tenuous of relationships with the truth, most apparent when talking abut their political op ...


Do you think you are educated? Because your statement doesn't seem to back up that claim nor refute anything the guy you're replying to has said.  Rabid left, tenuous relationships with the truth - nice words not related to any facts. A racist and ignorant Tea Party is something that you can see without anyone from a rabid left or racist right pointing out to you.
 
2014-02-15 02:53:26 PM  

Mr. Right: Lenny_da_Hog: Peck-peck-peck, defend-defend-defend, anti-intellectual swipe, blah, blah, blah.

I already talked about left-wing crazies above.

None of which lends any credence to what you wrote about the Tea Party.  Understand, I don't belong to the Tea Party, nor do I belong to any political party.  But you blather on about them being racist.  That is a charge coming from the more radical Democrats.  But none of those making that charge has been able to point to more than a few very isolated incidents of what may be considered racism and there is no evidence of any widespread racism.

You go on about how the Tea Party is controlled by the GOP.  Nothing could be further from the truth - the establishment Republicans intensely dislike the Tea Party and everything they stand for.  Establishment GOPers do more to undermine the candidacy of Tea Party candidates than Democrats.  Of course, the Democrats are more than wiling to stand  by and hold the coat of the person attacking their opponent.

The fact that you don't know even a few facts but still hew to the party line informs me that you are only parroting.


Yes. And the fact that every "Tea Party" candidate has run on the GOP ticket has escaped you.

The Tea Party was a marketing ploy, and it worked. They had to get that same church-village demographic to continue to vote for the GOP even after the GOP had screwed them over on so many levels at the end of the Bush administration. It was a way to get people who hated Bush to continue to be Republicans, without actually having to say they were Republicans.

Any "infighting" you see is just the GOP corralling those same sheep back into the main fold for the next election cycle. The Tea Party is going to go the same way as the Moral Majority, the Christian Coalition, and the Contract with America. New Coke.
 
2014-02-15 03:02:40 PM  

You know who did not know or care one way or the other:



www.extendededition.net
nerdreactor.com
 
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