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(Forbes)   $2.6 million dollars of Bitcoin stolen, or in real life $0   (forbes.com ) divider line
    More: Fail, Silk Road, bitcoins, multiple users  
•       •       •

2000 clicks; posted to Business » on 14 Feb 2014 at 1:06 AM (2 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-02-13 08:23:39 PM  
Tell us again how safe and secure virtual currency is.
 
2014-02-13 08:26:16 PM  
It was the credit card companies.  They have their systems ready to go online, now they just need instability in the current markets to create the "need".

/That's my paranoid delusion, and I'm sticking to it.
 
2014-02-13 08:31:51 PM  
Oh, wait. Now it's at $5,683,277,959,071.

Wait. Now it's -$47.

Wait. Now it's $756.
 
2014-02-13 08:36:43 PM  
Dumb but serious question: isn't establishing your own or using a non-dollar currency a federal crime by itself? I seem to remember the secret service shutting down people minting their own currency.
 
2014-02-13 08:37:22 PM  
dumbasses.....

they are getting too greedy. they took this from a pryamid scheme to a pyramid scheme layed with fraud and deception. they are going to kill their own golden goose.

either these people are farking stupid enough to let someone pulls out millions without anyone flagging their account to have a real person figure out wtf is going on (and this shiat happened over multiple exchanges I believe, so its more than one group of people), they are stealing, or they are covering up a bank run situation.
 
2014-02-13 08:41:25 PM  

b2theory: Dumb but serious question: isn't establishing your own or using a non-dollar currency a federal crime by itself? I seem to remember the secret service shutting down people minting their own currency.


i am talking out my ass, so I could be wrong, but I think that comes into play when you try to pay people wages in a private currency. back in the day, large companies would pay people in 'company bucks' which you'd pay rent to the company with and buy good at the company store with. it basically made it impossible to ever quit your job without losing everything and starting over. as far as just making b2theory bucks and exchanging them for usd's and watching as some stores agree to take them and commerce happens, I don't think thats illegal. I'm sure there is some regulations you'd be expected to follow though.
 
2014-02-13 08:44:01 PM  

NickelP: dumbasses.....

they are getting too greedy. they took this from a pryamid scheme to a pyramid scheme layed with fraud and deception. they are going to kill their own golden goose.

either these people are farking stupid enough to let someone pulls out millions without anyone flagging their account to have a real person figure out wtf is going on (and this shiat happened over multiple exchanges I believe, so its more than one group of people), they are stealing, or they are covering up a bank run situation.


also my money is on a combo. I think someone is going after bitcoin and causing drama, so people started pulling coins out, causing a run which made a serious issue because all these exchanges/marketplaces have been skimming off the float and just got caught.
 
2014-02-13 08:45:30 PM  

b2theory: Dumb but serious question: isn't establishing your own or using a non-dollar currency a federal crime by itself? I seem to remember the secret service shutting down people minting their own currency.


You can't make US currency. But you can make your own pseudo-currncy. Look at casinos with their chips and arcades with their tokens. It's not against the law to make something someone can exchange for goods and services.
 
2014-02-13 08:50:38 PM  

NickelP: b2theory: Dumb but serious question: isn't establishing your own or using a non-dollar currency a federal crime by itself? I seem to remember the secret service shutting down people minting their own currency.

i am talking out my ass, so I could be wrong, but I think that comes into play when you try to pay people wages in a private currency. back in the day, large companies would pay people in 'company bucks' which you'd pay rent to the company with and buy good at the company store with. it basically made it impossible to ever quit your job without losing everything and starting over. as far as just making b2theory bucks and exchanging them for usd's and watching as some stores agree to take them and commerce happens, I don't think thats illegal. I'm sure there is some regulations you'd be expected to follow though.


I found an interesting recent example:

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberty_Dollar

I want to say that the US Federal Government is the only entity which can supply money of any kind as a means of exchange. Other systems of quasi-currency (stocks, bonds, gold deposits, foriegn currency) are all allowed insofar as their exchange is regulated by the Federal Government.

I would not be surprised if bit coin by itself is illegal. Then again what do I know.
 
2014-02-13 08:55:55 PM  
Anybody that believe in some fake currency more than the almighty dollar deserves to get scammed.
 
2014-02-13 09:03:41 PM  

b2theory: NickelP: b2theory: Dumb but serious question: isn't establishing your own or using a non-dollar currency a federal crime by itself? I seem to remember the secret service shutting down people minting their own currency.

i am talking out my ass, so I could be wrong, but I think that comes into play when you try to pay people wages in a private currency. back in the day, large companies would pay people in 'company bucks' which you'd pay rent to the company with and buy good at the company store with. it basically made it impossible to ever quit your job without losing everything and starting over. as far as just making b2theory bucks and exchanging them for usd's and watching as some stores agree to take them and commerce happens, I don't think thats illegal. I'm sure there is some regulations you'd be expected to follow though.

I found an interesting recent example:

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberty_Dollar

I want to say that the US Federal Government is the only entity which can supply money of any kind as a means of exchange. Other systems of quasi-currency (stocks, bonds, gold deposits, foriegn currency) are all allowed insofar as their exchange is regulated by the Federal Government.

I would not be surprised if bit coin by itself is illegal. Then again what do I know.


interesting. dudes been waiting to be sentenced for almost 3 years. they seem to be mostly pissed that his coins were passed off to resemble and be similar to usd. I see your point though and am not sure that even matters. anyhow imo opinion the point you raise is reason like 5093 to stay away from bitcoins.
 
2014-02-13 09:08:47 PM  

NickelP: b2theory: NickelP: b2theory: Dumb but serious question: isn't establishing your own or using a non-dollar currency a federal crime by itself? I seem to remember the secret service shutting down people minting their own currency.

i am talking out my ass, so I could be wrong, but I think that comes into play when you try to pay people wages in a private currency. back in the day, large companies would pay people in 'company bucks' which you'd pay rent to the company with and buy good at the company store with. it basically made it impossible to ever quit your job without losing everything and starting over. as far as just making b2theory bucks and exchanging them for usd's and watching as some stores agree to take them and commerce happens, I don't think thats illegal. I'm sure there is some regulations you'd be expected to follow though.

I found an interesting recent example:

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberty_Dollar

I want to say that the US Federal Government is the only entity which can supply money of any kind as a means of exchange. Other systems of quasi-currency (stocks, bonds, gold deposits, foriegn currency) are all allowed insofar as their exchange is regulated by the Federal Government.

I would not be surprised if bit coin by itself is illegal. Then again what do I know.

interesting. dudes been waiting to be sentenced for almost 3 years. they seem to be mostly pissed that his coins were passed off to resemble and be similar to usd. I see your point though and am not sure that even matters. anyhow imo opinion the point you raise is reason like 5093 to stay away from bitcoins.


i meant I see what you are saying about it just being generally illegal so passing it off as usd may not matter. didnt want you to think I was saying your point doesn't matter. tldr I expressed that poorly but agree with you
 
2014-02-13 09:25:01 PM  

NickelP: NickelP: b2theory: NickelP: b2theory: Dumb but serious question: isn't establishing your own or using a non-dollar currency a federal crime by itself? I seem to remember the secret service shutting down people minting their own currency.

i am talking out my ass, so I could be wrong, but I think that comes into play when you try to pay people wages in a private currency. back in the day, large companies would pay people in 'company bucks' which you'd pay rent to the company with and buy good at the company store with. it basically made it impossible to ever quit your job without losing everything and starting over. as far as just making b2theory bucks and exchanging them for usd's and watching as some stores agree to take them and commerce happens, I don't think thats illegal. I'm sure there is some regulations you'd be expected to follow though.

I found an interesting recent example:

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberty_Dollar

I want to say that the US Federal Government is the only entity which can supply money of any kind as a means of exchange. Other systems of quasi-currency (stocks, bonds, gold deposits, foriegn currency) are all allowed insofar as their exchange is regulated by the Federal Government.

I would not be surprised if bit coin by itself is illegal. Then again what do I know.

interesting. dudes been waiting to be sentenced for almost 3 years. they seem to be mostly pissed that his coins were passed off to resemble and be similar to usd. I see your point though and am not sure that even matters. anyhow imo opinion the point you raise is reason like 5093 to stay away from bitcoins.

i meant I see what you are saying about it just being generally illegal so passing it off as usd may not matter. didnt want you to think I was saying your point doesn't matter. tldr I expressed that poorly but agree with you


Yeah, I wouldn't invest or use something where your speculative wager or legitimate purchase is primarily being used to facilitate money laundering.
 
2014-02-13 09:25:11 PM  
Any idea what that $ in front of the 2 means, subby?
 
2014-02-13 09:30:02 PM  

b2theory: Dumb but serious question: isn't establishing your own or using a non-dollar currency a federal crime by itself?


Doesn't every other country in the world mint their own currency?  Why aren't we at war with all of them?!?!?

/snerk
 
2014-02-13 09:31:58 PM  

doyner: b2theory: Dumb but serious question: isn't establishing your own or using a non-dollar currency a federal crime by itself?

Doesn't every other country in the world mint their own currency?  Why aren't we at war with all of them?!?!?

/snerk


Foriegn exchanges are reported and regulated.
 
2014-02-13 09:33:03 PM  
Planet Money had a good criticism of Bitcoin recently:

One of the biggest problems Felix cites with bitcoin is somewhat counterintuitive: The fact that bitcoins have become so valuable so fast means no one is going to want to spend them to buy stuff. Instead, people will just buy them and hold onto them.

Felix: I'm skeptical about bitcoin in particular partly because it is a store of speculative value. It's a place where speculators like the Winkelvoss twins will come in and buy up lots of bitoins for no reason other than they think they can find a greater fool to sell the bitcoins to tomorrow.

In fact, Felix points out, the way the bitcoin system was designed - the way the computer the code was written - only a finite number of bitcoins can ever exist. And that fact alone means they're likely to get more and more valuable over time. In other words, deflation is built into the system.

Felix: And because bitcoin offers the potential for so much profit just by sitting on it - the longer you don't spend it, the more you benefit - then everyone has an incentive to not spend their bitcoins. And you can't have an have effective payments mechanism if you're not spending the currency.


So it's a speculative bubble.
 
2014-02-13 09:33:55 PM  

b2theory: doyner: b2theory: Dumb but serious question: isn't establishing your own or using a non-dollar currency a federal crime by itself?

Doesn't every other country in the world mint their own currency?  Why aren't we at war with all of them?!?!?

/snerk

Foriegn exchanges are reported and regulated.


We need to create FarKoin.
 
2014-02-13 09:34:59 PM  
The way that he says that the bitcoins were stolen doesn't make any sense. It's pretty likely that it was in fact Defcon or someone he works with that has stolen it, no outside parties involved.
 
2014-02-13 09:36:03 PM  

b2theory: NickelP: NickelP: b2theory: NickelP: b2theory: Dumb but serious question: isn't establishing your own or using a non-dollar currency a federal crime by itself? I seem to remember the secret service shutting down people minting their own currency.

i am talking out my ass, so I could be wrong, but I think that comes into play when you try to pay people wages in a private currency. back in the day, large companies would pay people in 'company bucks' which you'd pay rent to the company with and buy good at the company store with. it basically made it impossible to ever quit your job without losing everything and starting over. as far as just making b2theory bucks and exchanging them for usd's and watching as some stores agree to take them and commerce happens, I don't think thats illegal. I'm sure there is some regulations you'd be expected to follow though.

I found an interesting recent example:

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberty_Dollar

I want to say that the US Federal Government is the only entity which can supply money of any kind as a means of exchange. Other systems of quasi-currency (stocks, bonds, gold deposits, foriegn currency) are all allowed insofar as their exchange is regulated by the Federal Government.

I would not be surprised if bit coin by itself is illegal. Then again what do I know.

interesting. dudes been waiting to be sentenced for almost 3 years. they seem to be mostly pissed that his coins were passed off to resemble and be similar to usd. I see your point though and am not sure that even matters. anyhow imo opinion the point you raise is reason like 5093 to stay away from bitcoins.

i meant I see what you are saying about it just being generally illegal so passing it off as usd may not matter. didnt want you to think I was saying your point doesn't matter. tldr I expressed that poorly but agree with you

Yeah, I wouldn't invest or use something where your speculative wager or legitimate purchase is primarily being used to facilitate money laundering.


whats interesting is you could realize nearly all the (legal) benefits and illeminate almost all of the problems of crypto currencies by a real government backing one and regulating an exchange.
 
2014-02-13 09:43:13 PM  

b2theory: Dumb but serious question: isn't establishing your own or using a non-dollar currency a federal crime by itself? I seem to remember the secret service shutting down people minting their own currency.


Nope. You can make your purchases in sheep if you want to. The only requirement is that the transaction is agreeable to all parties. The only difference between Bitcoin and US Dollars is that US Dollars have a known, fairly stable value, whereas Bitcoins have a very unstable value which, in the end, must still be exchanged into US Dollars. In that way Bitcoins are like stocks: very volatile and worth only as much as someone is willing to exchange for them.
 
2014-02-13 09:48:11 PM  

thisispete: Planet Money had a good criticism of Bitcoin recently:

One of the biggest problems Felix cites with bitcoin is somewhat counterintuitive: The fact that bitcoins have become so valuable so fast means no one is going to want to spend them to buy stuff. Instead, people will just buy them and hold onto them.

Felix: I'm skeptical about bitcoin in particular partly because it is a store of speculative value. It's a place where speculators like the Winkelvoss twins will come in and buy up lots of bitoins for no reason other than they think they can find a greater fool to sell the bitcoins to tomorrow.

In fact, Felix points out, the way the bitcoin system was designed - the way the computer the code was written - only a finite number of bitcoins can ever exist. And that fact alone means they're likely to get more and more valuable over time. In other words, deflation is built into the system.

Felix: And because bitcoin offers the potential for so much profit just by sitting on it - the longer you don't spend it, the more you benefit - then everyone has an incentive to not spend their bitcoins. And you can't have an have effective payments mechanism if you're not spending the currency.

So it's a speculative bubble.


that really farks with debt and lending too, which is a rather important component of real economic systems. think of three situation. 1 I lend someone 1 bitcoin to buy a house and there is no inflation or deflation. i get whatever market interest is but if shiat goes south I can foreclose and recoup my capital. now say there is inflation. I get market real interest plus the expected inflation to normalize it, and if I have to foreclose I likelly will get at least my capital back, and may profit. now say there is deflation. the entire thing basically goes to shiat because now the house is worth .5 bit coins and people start saying 'ah fark paying him back, let him foreclose'. so now the interest goes insane because I need to compensate for the loss in the actual collateral.
 
2014-02-13 09:55:40 PM  

thisispete: Planet Money had a good criticism of Bitcoin recently:

One of the biggest problems Felix cites with bitcoin is somewhat counterintuitive: The fact that bitcoins have become so valuable so fast means no one is going to want to spend them to buy stuff. Instead, people will just buy them and hold onto them.

Felix: I'm skeptical about bitcoin in particular partly because it is a store of speculative value. It's a place where speculators like the Winkelvoss twins will come in and buy up lots of bitoins for no reason other than they think they can find a greater fool to sell the bitcoins to tomorrow.

In fact, Felix points out, the way the bitcoin system was designed - the way the computer the code was written - only a finite number of bitcoins can ever exist. And that fact alone means they're likely to get more and more valuable over time. In other words, deflation is built into the system.

Felix: And because bitcoin offers the potential for so much profit just by sitting on it - the longer you don't spend it, the more you benefit - then everyone has an incentive to not spend their bitcoins. And you can't have an have effective payments mechanism if you're not spending the currency.

So it's a speculative bubble.


also this is a great example of where a real government being involved could fix a major problem. annual issues of different crypto currencies could be controlled for size to encourage or discourage inflation in the same way we print more or less money and fark with shiat by setting the fed funds rate now.
 
2014-02-13 10:02:02 PM  

Adolf Oliver Nipples: b2theory: Dumb but serious question: isn't establishing your own or using a non-dollar currency a federal crime by itself? I seem to remember the secret service shutting down people minting their own currency.

Nope. You can make your purchases in sheep if you want to. The only requirement is that the transaction is agreeable to all parties. The only difference between Bitcoin and US Dollars is that US Dollars have a known, fairly stable value, whereas Bitcoins have a very unstable value which, in the end, must still be exchanged into US Dollars. In that way Bitcoins are like stocks: very volatile and worth only as much as someone is willing to exchange for them.


I have now read up on the subject. It is 100% illegal to mint your own money and use it for any form of exchange.
 
2014-02-13 10:09:52 PM  

b2theory: Adolf Oliver Nipples: b2theory: Dumb but serious question: isn't establishing your own or using a non-dollar currency a federal crime by itself? I seem to remember the secret service shutting down people minting their own currency.

Nope. You can make your purchases in sheep if you want to. The only requirement is that the transaction is agreeable to all parties. The only difference between Bitcoin and US Dollars is that US Dollars have a known, fairly stable value, whereas Bitcoins have a very unstable value which, in the end, must still be exchanged into US Dollars. In that way Bitcoins are like stocks: very volatile and worth only as much as someone is willing to exchange for them.

I have now read up on the subject. It is 100% illegal to mint your own money and use it for any form of exchange.


It's NOT money. It does not purport to be a US Dollar, it does not make any claims regarding being legal tender satisfying public or private debts. It is a means of exchange that others agree to part with and accept to satisfy a debt. If one party is not amenable to Bitcoins they cannot be compelled to accept them. You could call them Pigcoins if it made you feel better, with each representing a pig or fraction thereof.

This will remain true until such time as the Treasury Department agrees with you, which they have not done. In fact, the IRS's only problem with them right now is figuring out how to tax the gains.
 
2014-02-13 10:17:49 PM  

b2theory: Adolf Oliver Nipples: b2theory: Dumb but serious question: isn't establishing your own or using a non-dollar currency a federal crime by itself? I seem to remember the secret service shutting down people minting their own currency.

Nope. You can make your purchases in sheep if you want to. The only requirement is that the transaction is agreeable to all parties. The only difference between Bitcoin and US Dollars is that US Dollars have a known, fairly stable value, whereas Bitcoins have a very unstable value which, in the end, must still be exchanged into US Dollars. In that way Bitcoins are like stocks: very volatile and worth only as much as someone is willing to exchange for them.

I have now read up on the subject. It is 100% illegal to mint your own money and use it for any form of exchange.


Except for the payment of wages and salaries. Laws against the use of company scrip specify these must be paid in legal tender.
 
2014-02-13 10:19:42 PM  

b2theory: Dumb but serious question: isn't establishing your own or using a non-dollar currency a federal crime by itself? I seem to remember the secret service shutting down people minting their own currency.


Not per se. It's totally legal to mint your own coins and bills. Look at Monopoly or any LARP.

It's when you try to use them in public that it gets tricky. Near as I can tell, Athens Hours are legal as long as you pay sales and income tax on them like dollars.
 
2014-02-13 10:20:20 PM  

Adolf Oliver Nipples: b2theory: Adolf Oliver Nipples: b2theory: Dumb but serious question: isn't establishing your own or using a non-dollar currency a federal crime by itself? I seem to remember the secret service shutting down people minting their own currency.

Nope. You can make your purchases in sheep if you want to. The only requirement is that the transaction is agreeable to all parties. The only difference between Bitcoin and US Dollars is that US Dollars have a known, fairly stable value, whereas Bitcoins have a very unstable value which, in the end, must still be exchanged into US Dollars. In that way Bitcoins are like stocks: very volatile and worth only as much as someone is willing to exchange for them.

I have now read up on the subject. It is 100% illegal to mint your own money and use it for any form of exchange.

It's NOT money. It does not purport to be a US Dollar, it does not make any claims regarding being legal tender satisfying public or private debts. It is a means of exchange that others agree to part with and accept to satisfy a debt. If one party is not amenable to Bitcoins they cannot be compelled to accept them. You could call them Pigcoins if it made you feel better, with each representing a pig or fraction thereof.

This will remain true until such time as the Treasury Department agrees with you, which they have not done. In fact, the IRS's only problem with them right now is figuring out how to tax the gains.


I half agree. I was responding to your statement about exchanging what ever you want. I cannot begin to understand whether bitcoin is legal or not.

To your original statement, it is illegal to mint your own currency, even if both parties agree on it. It doesn't matter if it looks like a dollar ot not. This is above and beyond counterfeiting.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/486
 
2014-02-13 10:24:40 PM  

b2theory: Dumb but serious question: isn't establishing your own or using a non-dollar currency a federal crime by itself? I seem to remember the secret service shutting down people minting their own currency.


Technically, one might argue this isn't currency but a container for currency. Frankly, all of this is quite revealing in how bullshiat concerns over fiat currency were.
 
2014-02-13 10:27:40 PM  
Kudos to whomever figured out a eat to grift geeks.
 
2014-02-13 10:30:44 PM  
I really don't get why people need bitcoin.

I mean, yeah its kinda cool and all, but its pretty useless unless if you are someone who likes to launder money or buy illegal items.

These days a Debit card is all one needs for a digital currency.
 
2014-02-13 10:32:02 PM  

b2theory: Adolf Oliver Nipples: b2theory: Adolf Oliver Nipples: b2theory: Dumb but serious question: isn't establishing your own or using a non-dollar currency a federal crime by itself? I seem to remember the secret service shutting down people minting their own currency.

Nope. You can make your purchases in sheep if you want to. The only requirement is that the transaction is agreeable to all parties. The only difference between Bitcoin and US Dollars is that US Dollars have a known, fairly stable value, whereas Bitcoins have a very unstable value which, in the end, must still be exchanged into US Dollars. In that way Bitcoins are like stocks: very volatile and worth only as much as someone is willing to exchange for them.

I have now read up on the subject. It is 100% illegal to mint your own money and use it for any form of exchange.

It's NOT money. It does not purport to be a US Dollar, it does not make any claims regarding being legal tender satisfying public or private debts. It is a means of exchange that others agree to part with and accept to satisfy a debt. If one party is not amenable to Bitcoins they cannot be compelled to accept them. You could call them Pigcoins if it made you feel better, with each representing a pig or fraction thereof.

This will remain true until such time as the Treasury Department agrees with you, which they have not done. In fact, the IRS's only problem with them right now is figuring out how to tax the gains.

I half agree. I was responding to your statement about exchanging what ever you want. I cannot begin to understand whether bitcoin is legal or not.

To your original statement, it is illegal to mint your own currency, even if both parties agree on it. It doesn't matter if it looks like a dollar ot not. This is above and beyond counterfeiting.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/486


Again, it is NOT "current money". It is something with a fluctuating value, is exchanged for goods and services based on the current traded value, which could go to zero tomorrow. It is quite literally worth nothing until someone exchanges it for US Dollars.

Are stocks illegal? How about grocery store coupons? They're analogs. That's why Bitcoins are referred to as "cryptocurrency", not actual currency. Want proof? Go down to the bank and try to deposit your Bitcoins. They'll tell you that they have no value, even the coins that have been minted. And they don't, until they're traded in for real money, just like stocks.
 
2014-02-13 10:39:25 PM  

cman: I really don't get why people need bitcoin.

I mean, yeah its kinda cool and all, but its pretty useless unless if you are someone who likes to launder money or buy illegal items.

These days a Debit card is all one needs for a digital currency.


They don't need Bitcoin, and to the layman it's not money laundering, it's a way to make some money by loaning out some time on their computer. People have given time to SETI@Home and the like for a long time, this isn't any different in import, but for this you might actually get paid. That is, until it costs more in juice than you can mine, which will happen sooner or later. That people use it for money laundering doesn't mean that it was designed for that purpose.
 
2014-02-13 10:41:24 PM  

Ambivalence: b2theory: Dumb but serious question: isn't establishing your own or using a non-dollar currency a federal crime by itself? I seem to remember the secret service shutting down people minting their own currency.

You can't make US currency. But you can make your own pseudo-currncy. Look at casinos with their chips and arcades with their tokens. It's not against the law to make something someone can exchange for goods and services.


www.heavenswildliferescue.org
 
2014-02-13 10:41:30 PM  

cman: I really don't get why people need bitcoin.

I mean, yeah its kinda cool and all, but its pretty useless unless if you are someone who likes to launder money or buy illegal items.

These days a Debit card is all one needs for a digital currency.


there are certainly a lot of problems that overshadow the shiat out of this, but I think there is some value in being able to make payments to someone electronically, who you have never met, and for them to be able to verify these instantly without paying a bunch of fees to the credit card companies. they essentially duplicate what western union and money orders do too but there are basically no transaction costs.
 
2014-02-13 10:42:34 PM  

Adolf Oliver Nipples: cman: I really don't get why people need bitcoin.

I mean, yeah its kinda cool and all, but its pretty useless unless if you are someone who likes to launder money or buy illegal items.

These days a Debit card is all one needs for a digital currency.

They don't need Bitcoin, and to the layman it's not money laundering, it's a way to make some money by loaning out some time on their computer. People have given time to SETI@Home and the like for a long time, this isn't any different in import, but for this you might actually get paid. That is, until it costs more in juice than you can mine, which will happen sooner or later. That people use it for money laundering doesn't mean that it was designed for that purpose.


What are you talking about? Loaning out computer time. What does that have to do with BitCoin?
 
2014-02-13 10:44:31 PM  

cman: Adolf Oliver Nipples: cman: I really don't get why people need bitcoin.

I mean, yeah its kinda cool and all, but its pretty useless unless if you are someone who likes to launder money or buy illegal items.

These days a Debit card is all one needs for a digital currency.

They don't need Bitcoin, and to the layman it's not money laundering, it's a way to make some money by loaning out some time on their computer. People have given time to SETI@Home and the like for a long time, this isn't any different in import, but for this you might actually get paid. That is, until it costs more in juice than you can mine, which will happen sooner or later. That people use it for money laundering doesn't mean that it was designed for that purpose.

What are you talking about? Loaning out computer time. What does that have to do with BitCoin?


Never mind

I have heard of BitCoin before and got a general idea what it was. I did not know about the "mining" until I looked it up on Wikipedia.
 
2014-02-13 10:45:04 PM  

Adolf Oliver Nipples: cman: I really don't get why people need bitcoin.

I mean, yeah its kinda cool and all, but its pretty useless unless if you are someone who likes to launder money or buy illegal items.

These days a Debit card is all one needs for a digital currency.

They don't need Bitcoin, and to the layman it's not money laundering, it's a way to make some money by loaning out some time on their computer. People have given time to SETI@Home and the like for a long time, this isn't any different in import, but for this you might actually get paid. That is, until it costs more in juice than you can mine, which will happen sooner or later. That people use it for money laundering doesn't mean that it was designed for that purpose.


from what I understand (which may be off) unless you want to make a big investment in specialized equipment we are long past the point of mining on your computer being realistic or profitable.
 
2014-02-13 10:46:04 PM  

Adolf Oliver Nipples: b2theory: Adolf Oliver Nipples: b2theory: Adolf Oliver Nipples: b2theory: Dumb but serious question: isn't establishing your own or using a non-dollar currency a federal crime by itself? I seem to remember the secret service shutting down people minting their own currency.

Nope. You can make your purchases in sheep if you want to. The only requirement is that the transaction is agreeable to all parties. The only difference between Bitcoin and US Dollars is that US Dollars have a known, fairly stable value, whereas Bitcoins have a very unstable value which, in the end, must still be exchanged into US Dollars. In that way Bitcoins are like stocks: very volatile and worth only as much as someone is willing to exchange for them.

I have now read up on the subject. It is 100% illegal to mint your own money and use it for any form of exchange.

It's NOT money. It does not purport to be a US Dollar, it does not make any claims regarding being legal tender satisfying public or private debts. It is a means of exchange that others agree to part with and accept to satisfy a debt. If one party is not amenable to Bitcoins they cannot be compelled to accept them. You could call them Pigcoins if it made you feel better, with each representing a pig or fraction thereof.

This will remain true until such time as the Treasury Department agrees with you, which they have not done. In fact, the IRS's only problem with them right now is figuring out how to tax the gains.

I half agree. I was responding to your statement about exchanging what ever you want. I cannot begin to understand whether bitcoin is legal or not.

To your original statement, it is illegal to mint your own currency, even if both parties agree on it. It doesn't matter if it looks like a dollar ot not. This is above and beyond counterfeiting.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/486

Again, it is NOT "current money". It is something with a fluctuating value, is exchanged for goods and services based on the current traded value, which could go to zero tomorrow. It is quite literally worth nothing until someone exchanges it for US Dollars.

Are stocks illegal? How about grocery store coupons? They're analogs. That's why Bitcoins are referred to as "cryptocurrency", not actual currency. Want proof? Go down to the bank and try to deposit your Bitcoins. They'll tell you that they have no value, even the coins that have been minted. And they don't, until they're traded in for real money, just like stocks.


If you minted a bunch of coins with your face on them and were trying to convince people to use them as a form of currency, you are committing a felony (which is why game tokens....etc say "not legal tender").

You make some good points. However, nearly all of the examples you mentioned are heavily regulated and do not market themselves as currency.

Please note: I am not saying bitcoin is illegal. I don't know that it is but do know that it is a felony to create your own currency for use in the US. Hence my question. If it is illegal to create your own currency, and bit coin is a currency (of sorts, clearly it isn't cut and dry) is bitcoin illegal?
 
2014-02-13 10:46:39 PM  

cman: Adolf Oliver Nipples: cman: I really don't get why people need bitcoin.

I mean, yeah its kinda cool and all, but its pretty useless unless if you are someone who likes to launder money or buy illegal items.

These days a Debit card is all one needs for a digital currency.

They don't need Bitcoin, and to the layman it's not money laundering, it's a way to make some money by loaning out some time on their computer. People have given time to SETI@Home and the like for a long time, this isn't any different in import, but for this you might actually get paid. That is, until it costs more in juice than you can mine, which will happen sooner or later. That people use it for money laundering doesn't mean that it was designed for that purpose.

What are you talking about? Loaning out computer time. What does that have to do with BitCoin?


That's what Bitcoin mining is. They don't just materialize out of nowhere. You download a client, run a script, and for your trouble you receive some small amount of Bitcoin.
 
2014-02-13 10:53:39 PM  

vygramul: b2theory: Dumb but serious question: isn't establishing your own or using a non-dollar currency a federal crime by itself? I seem to remember the secret service shutting down people minting their own currency.

Technically, one might argue this isn't currency but a container for currency. Frankly, all of this is quite revealing in how bullshiat concerns over fiat currency were.


why do you say its just a container? I don't follow can you expand on that
 
2014-02-13 11:23:06 PM  

b2theory: Dumb but serious question: isn't establishing your own or using a non-dollar currency a federal crime by itself? I seem to remember the secret service shutting down people minting their own currency.


http://www.irs.gov/irm/part9/irm_09-005-005.html

Probably
Esp since people would be using that currency as a method to avoid local, state and federal laws.

You are required to pay taxes on barter, including labor.
Printing your own currency or digital currency would allow you to avoid taxation, which is illegal.

Cracks me up when people try to argue other reasons for using bitcoins.

Taxes are the Dues that you pay to live in a civil society.
pay them or get out
 
2014-02-13 11:24:20 PM  
also its really nice to see how they green this with a 4.5 gap between when it goes live and the last public thread. wtf admins.
 
2014-02-13 11:35:00 PM  

Ambivalence: b2theory: Dumb but serious question: isn't establishing your own or using a non-dollar currency a federal crime by itself? I seem to remember the secret service shutting down people minting their own currency.

You can't make US currency. But you can make your own pseudo-currncy. Look at casinos with their chips and arcades with their tokens. It's not against the law to make something someone can exchange for goods and services.


yes no sort of ...
chips and tokens are used at places like casinos and fairs for a number of reasons.
tax collection later.
preventing employees other than cashiers from being able to touch real money.
(yes, I know that tables take cash. but the cash QUICKLY gets taken off table and replaced with chips)

In general those tokens are only good on the premises and not circulated in genpop.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scrip
tons of interesting information here if you have never read or heard about scrip.
The military example is quite interesting.

In the end, exchange of value between two groups is of interest to the government for two reasons:
taxes and black markets.
If we legalized the consensual crimes, the black market would be tiny enough to almost ignore, leaving only taxes.
 
2014-02-13 11:36:39 PM  
Allegedly I have 10 Dogecoin somewhere out there in the cosmos. They were randomly given to me. That's what Reddit tells me, at least. I don't have a virtual wallet, I don't really care to get one, and I doubt my 10 Dogecoin will be anything but some random data on a server somewhere.

And that's my entire venture into cryptocurrency.
 
2014-02-13 11:36:41 PM  

NickelP: vygramul: b2theory: Dumb but serious question: isn't establishing your own or using a non-dollar currency a federal crime by itself? I seem to remember the secret service shutting down people minting their own currency.

Technically, one might argue this isn't currency but a container for currency. Frankly, all of this is quite revealing in how bullshiat concerns over fiat currency were.

why do you say its just a container? I don't follow can you expand on that


I can't find the article that does a good job explaining it. I 'll have to get back to you if I'm going to give you an error-free answer.
 
2014-02-13 11:38:43 PM  

vygramul: NickelP: vygramul: b2theory: Dumb but serious question: isn't establishing your own or using a non-dollar currency a federal crime by itself? I seem to remember the secret service shutting down people minting their own currency.

Technically, one might argue this isn't currency but a container for currency. Frankly, all of this is quite revealing in how bullshiat concerns over fiat currency were.

why do you say its just a container? I don't follow can you expand on that

I can't find the article that does a good job explaining it. I 'll have to get back to you if I'm going to give you an error-free answer.


i don't mind a few errors, I make plenty myself. just hoping to learn something :)
 
2014-02-13 11:42:48 PM  

namatad: Ambivalence: b2theory: Dumb but serious question: isn't establishing your own or using a non-dollar currency a federal crime by itself? I seem to remember the secret service shutting down people minting their own currency.

You can't make US currency. But you can make your own pseudo-currncy. Look at casinos with their chips and arcades with their tokens. It's not against the law to make something someone can exchange for goods and services.

yes no sort of ...
chips and tokens are used at places like casinos and fairs for a number of reasons.
tax collection later.
preventing employees other than cashiers from being able to touch real money.
(yes, I know that tables take cash. but the cash QUICKLY gets taken off table and replaced with chips)

In general those tokens are only good on the premises and not circulated in genpop.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scrip
tons of interesting information here if you have never read or heard about scrip.
The military example is quite interesting.

In the end, exchange of value between two groups is of interest to the government for two reasons:
taxes and black markets.
If we legalized the consensual crimes, the black market would be tiny enough to almost ignore, leaving only taxes.


its worth noting casino coins are heavily regulated too. there are cash requirements the issuer must keep on hand to prevent not being able to redeem them. when you cash in a big enough chunk they also issue a 1099, sometimes immedietly withold, and report that stuff to the irs. if you have a legit reason to issue something similar to currency and are willing to work with the gov so they get there cut and consumers don't get farked you wind up in a much safer area than when the entire point of your 'semi currency' to avoid these things you are putting a bullseye on yourself.
 
2014-02-13 11:44:22 PM  
I met a dude in the woods during a camping trip. He had a roll of toilet paper. He called it mountain money.
 
2014-02-13 11:52:10 PM  

jaylectricity: I met a dude in the woods during a camping trip. He had a roll of toilet paper. He called it mountain money.


I'm not sure I want the 'interest' it accumulates.
 
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