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(SFGate)   Looks like California is going to get a lot more polite. Or something   (sfgate.com) divider line 404
    More: Interesting, California law, San Francisco County Superior Court, concealed weapons  
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10360 clicks; posted to Main » on 13 Feb 2014 at 6:15 PM (41 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-02-13 07:20:13 PM  

lostcat: So I've read a couple of different articles about this, and what I get from it is that nothing really changed except in San Diego county, where, in addition to a waiting period and mandatory safety training, you were required to prove that you had immediate need to defend yourself with a carried gun.

It seems like this ruling, even if it is not appealed, doesn't directly affect more than a handful of counties, and at most removes the requirement for the applicant to indicate their immediate need, in favor of a more general explanation of need. The waiting period and mandatory safety training are still in place and weren't even challenged. And the local government gets to decide what type of carry permit you receive.


The way California does it (or did it I guess) makes it essentially impossible to ever get a carry permit unless you have a job that requires it or you knew someone in the sheriffs dept.. The laws say that it's allowed but the number of approved applications was close to zero. As I understand it the sheriffs departments from all of the counties had an informal agreement to not issue the permits using the explanation that the person applying hadn't shown a need for it, wanting it wasn't good enough even if you met all of the "Official" state law requirements. This ruling means that it's up to the sheriffs departments to show cause for not issuing and not just saying no with no reason given other than "Not needing" it.

I think that if someone can pass the background checks, has been trained in gun safety (including passing a written test on the related laws including what states they would get in trouble in if they carried in them) and has shown at least a good familiarity with the weapon that they will be carrying on a range (using the USNs scoring system should work) then there should be no reason to deny them the right to carry. After that if they are caught by the police brandishing or otherwise being provably unsafe then their permit gets pulled until they can show that it won't happen again (so probably for life for most people).
 
2014-02-13 07:21:09 PM  

fusillade762: State law requires applicants to demonstrate good cause, as well as good moral character, to carry concealed handguns


In the county of my old boss, this meant letting the police chief feel up your wife. But damned if he didn't get one of only a dozen allowed CC permits.

/serious
//no names
 
2014-02-13 07:21:16 PM  
Guns are for pussies.
 
2014-02-13 07:22:00 PM  
I can't decide if this makes the police more likely to shoot you dead or less.

Gonna go with "more".
 
2014-02-13 07:22:43 PM  
Bout time fer chrisakes.
 
2014-02-13 07:23:11 PM  
FTFA: "In this file photo, San Francisco Superior Court Judge Richard Kramer points to a shooting target in his office that was used during his firearm training for a concealed weapon permit he obtained because of death threats he received following his 2005 same-sex marriage ruling in San Francisco."

I looked at the photo in the article of the judge pointing to the target from his CCW test and my first thought was, "Holy crap dude, they gave you a CCW with grouping like that?"
 
2014-02-13 07:23:28 PM  
cdn.styleforum.net
 
2014-02-13 07:23:29 PM  
guns are for pussies
 
2014-02-13 07:25:58 PM  
One day, in a glorious, shining future, everyone will carry at least three guns, all the time, everywhere, and peace and happiness and serenity will reign forever.

/also we need to get rid of 0bummercare and require picture IDs for voters and control lady parts and drive all 11 million illegal immigrants out of the country and also BENGHAZI
 
2014-02-13 07:26:09 PM  

Raging Whore Moans: guns are for pussies


Sorry, you don't medal in the Troll Olympics.
The Russian judge gave you a two, but all the others gave you the finger. Better luck in four years.
 
2014-02-13 07:30:12 PM  
LoneWolf343

AntiGravitas: James!: AntiGravitas: When the NINTH circuit sides with gun advocates, the debate is over. Seriously.

I think there's at least one more place for the debate to go after the ninth.

But if the ninth is in agreement with the more conservative circuits, then... good grief... you think the SC is going to rule otherwise?

The ninth is only agreeing on how the Constitution should be read, not that the Constitution is above scrutiny. Conservatives tend to treat the Constitution like it is the immutable Word of God*, despite the fact that it has been changed multiple times, and changed back once.

*Except when it comes to gay marriage, separation of church and state,
I'll give you 50 bucks if you can provide that quote "separation of church and state" from the US Constitution.

separation of powers
You mean like zero re-writing obama care? I would have sworn the USC said Congress not the exec. branch writes law.,
or when the president is near.
WTF are you talking about?
 
2014-02-13 07:32:36 PM  
Holy crap!  Awesome!  Now I can finally get a CCW here!

If I wanted to...probably won't.  Nah, definitely won't.  But, sweet!
 
2014-02-13 07:32:48 PM  

tylerdurden217: Guns are for pussies.


Raging Whore Moans: guns are for pussies


This is for fighting, this is for fun!
 
2014-02-13 07:32:49 PM  

Raging Whore Moans: guns are for pussies




Whatever floats your boat I guess? I use my penis for those...
 
2014-02-13 07:32:58 PM  

OnlyM3: LoneWolf343

AntiGravitas: James!: AntiGravitas: When the NINTH circuit sides with gun advocates, the debate is over. Seriously.

I think there's at least one more place for the debate to go after the ninth.

But if the ninth is in agreement with the more conservative circuits, then... good grief... you think the SC is going to rule otherwise?

The ninth is only agreeing on how the Constitution should be read, not that the Constitution is above scrutiny. Conservatives tend to treat the Constitution like it is the immutable Word of God*, despite the fact that it has been changed multiple times, and changed back once.

*Except when it comes to gay marriage, separation of church and state,I'll give you 50 bucks if you can provide that quote "separation of church and state" from the US Constitution.

separation of powersYou mean like zero re-writing obama care? I would have sworn the USC said Congress not the exec. branch writes law.,
or when the president is near.WTF are you talking about?


You missed 'gay marriage.' It doesn't mention that, either.
 
2014-02-13 07:35:51 PM  

moike: FTFA: "In this file photo, San Francisco Superior Court Judge Richard Kramer points to a shooting target in his office that was used during his firearm training for a concealed weapon permit he obtained because of death threats he received following his 2005 same-sex marriage ruling in San Francisco."

I looked at the photo in the article of the judge pointing to the target from his CCW test and my first thought was, "Holy crap dude, they gave you a CCW with grouping like that?"


Well since most states don't even require live fire (or often training/testing of any sort), it seems like a minor point.
 
2014-02-13 07:37:37 PM  

ElLoco: OnlyM3: LoneWolf343

AntiGravitas: James!: AntiGravitas: When the NINTH circuit sides with gun advocates, the debate is over. Seriously.

I think there's at least one more place for the debate to go after the ninth.

But if the ninth is in agreement with the more conservative circuits, then... good grief... you think the SC is going to rule otherwise?

The ninth is only agreeing on how the Constitution should be read, not that the Constitution is above scrutiny. Conservatives tend to treat the Constitution like it is the immutable Word of God*, despite the fact that it has been changed multiple times, and changed back once.

*Except when it comes to gay marriage, separation of church and state,I'll give you 50 bucks if you can provide that quote "separation of church and state" from the US Constitution.

separation of powersYou mean like zero re-writing obama care? I would have sworn the USC said Congress not the exec. branch writes law.,
or when the president is near.WTF are you talking about?

You missed 'gay marriage.' It doesn't mention that, either.


I think the 14th amendment covers it.
 
2014-02-13 07:38:07 PM  
As a California resident, I can say that I am happy with this news. I cannot count the times I've had an officer ask me if I was concealing a large-caliber gun in my crotch area.
 
2014-02-13 07:40:26 PM  

moike: FTFA: "In this file photo, San Francisco Superior Court Judge Richard Kramer points to a shooting target in his office that was used during his firearm training for a concealed weapon permit he obtained because of death threats he received following his 2005 same-sex marriage ruling in San Francisco."

I looked at the photo in the article of the judge pointing to the target from his CCW test and my first thought was, "Holy crap dude, they gave you a CCW with grouping like that?"


you don't even need to take a shooting test to get a CCW in my state. I took a test on the internet.

at the range of most defensive shootings, marksmanship isn't a huge concern.
see Zimmerman, George vs Martin, Trayvon.
 
2014-02-13 07:40:33 PM  
About time, but I'll believe it when I see it.

/Californian.
 
2014-02-13 07:40:58 PM  

Finger51: My question to our collection of farklawyerguys: Can I apply for a CCW if I don't own a weapon? Planning on getting my Boobiesol some time this year ... I guess I'll need it before applying?
/live in Oakland


Yes, you can apply without owning a handgun (unless your area requires a CCW tied to each handgun you own), but to complete the safety course you will need access to one.  Most classes have a few 9mm or .22 pistols for rent during the class.
 
2014-02-13 07:43:09 PM  

moike: I looked at the photo in the article of the judge pointing to the target from his CCW test and my first thought was, "Holy crap dude, they gave you a CCW with grouping like that?"


Hey, if 20 out of 30 anywhere on a human sized silhouette at 15 yards is good enough for the military then it should be good enough for everyone else. It's not like the police have a great record of hitting a target based upon past news reports of shootouts where ~60 bullets are fired and the bad guys getting hit once or twice if at all. Remember those woman in a truck during the recent manhunt for that deranged ex-cop? A hail of gunfire and not one of them got hit.

The average person who doesn't shoot a lot is usually a lousy shot. I was an RSO in the navy and if I had to keep training people on the range until everyone was a good shot I'd have blown through my yearly ammo budget really quickly and not had enough qualified watch standers to perform our mission.
 
2014-02-13 07:45:33 PM  
Well, that debate is over.

Last one out turn out the lights.

Besides, we have a lot of important debates to have. We can focus some energy on those now.
 
2014-02-13 07:45:48 PM  

ChaosStar: Raging Whore Moans: guns are for pussies

Sorry, you don't medal in the Troll Olympics.
The Russian judge gave you a two, but all the others gave you the finger. Better luck in four years.


Oh I get it. That's clever because the Winter Olympics are underway in Sochi.
 
2014-02-13 07:46:11 PM  

Finger51: My question to our collection of farklawyerguys: Can I apply for a CCW if I don't own a weapon? Planning on getting my Boobiesol some time this year ... I guess I'll need it before applying?
/live in Oakland


Don't waste your time.  Regardless of this court decision, neither Sheriff Ahern nor Oakland's Chief of the Month are going to approve your application.
 
2014-02-13 07:46:14 PM  

the money is in the banana stand: I don't feel safer or less safe with people here being able to concealed carry. There are times however I feel safer when I carry than not. I haven't had to ever draw thankfully, but I would rather have that ability should I need it than not. I have known far too many people who have suffered from not being armed than I know people who have been the victim of an accident (none) or the victim of someone who carries legally (none).


I don't feel safer when carrying.. I have a spare tire and jack in my car, and a fire extinguisher in my kitchen. Neither one of them protects me from flats or fires, so neither make me feel safer.

They all, however, make me more prepared in case something does go wrong.
 
2014-02-13 07:47:59 PM  
lostcat:
It seems like this ruling, even if it is not appealed, doesn't directly affect more than a handful of counties, and at most removes the requirement for the applicant to indicate their immediate need, in favor of a more general explanation of need. The waiting period and mandatory safety training are still in place and weren't even challenged. And the local government gets to decide what type of carry permit you receive.

Slightly wrong on that. 

The AWESOME decision by the 9th basically says that a county saying that you needed justifiable "good cause" (IE: restraining order by the courts, proof that you've been threatened requiring a signed statement by the person doing the threatening, politician, judge, celebrity, someone that donated a fark-ton of money to the county Sheriff...) can no longer deny you your application based upon just listing "self defense" on the good cause part of the application.

Pretty much if you can legally own a gun in CA, and you wish to carry concealed, then the counties can no longer deny you the issuance of the CCW if your reason is self-defense.  In other words, you can now get one in LA county provided you aren't a prohibited person, which is HUGE.
 
2014-02-13 07:54:23 PM  

shda5582: Pretty much if you can legally own a gun in CA, and you wish to carry concealed, then the counties can no longer deny you the issuance of the CCW if your reason is self-defense

.

I believe that's what the ruling says.

I'd be willing to place a significant wager that Alameda, Contra Costa, and San Francisco counties still refuse to issue permits to anyone who isn't "connected."
 
2014-02-13 07:54:50 PM  
Well, at least we'll get some interesting data to add to this chart over the next two decades.

img.fark.net
 
2014-02-13 07:55:49 PM  

fnordfocus: Don't waste your time. Regardless of this court decision, neither Sheriff Ahern nor Oakland's Chief of the Month are going to approve your application.


Probably not at first but this decision opens them up to civil lawsuits if they can't show cause for denying the application. This case was all about how the sheriffs were enacting their own de facto gun bans that the law didn't allow for. At the very least they will have to do a lot more in documenting why they denied it other than a well used red rubber stamp that says rejected and nothing else.
 
2014-02-13 07:56:40 PM  

fnordfocus: shda5582: Pretty much if you can legally own a gun in CA, and you wish to carry concealed, then the counties can no longer deny you the issuance of the CCW if your reason is self-defense.

I believe that's what the ruling says.

I'd be willing to place a significant wager that Alameda, Contra Costa, and San Francisco counties still refuse to issue permits to anyone who isn't "connected."


Oh, I have no doubt.  I'm saving my popcorn for the "try to deny when people file using "self-defense"" lawsuits  :)
 
2014-02-13 07:57:15 PM  
KInda makes you wonder how people in countries like Canada survive. Why are we not all dead from raging armed maniacs on the street?

Or maybe we just are not collective cowards.
 
2014-02-13 07:58:27 PM  

fnordfocus: I'd be willing to place a significant wager that Alameda, Contra Costa, and San Francisco counties still refuse to issue permits to anyone who isn't "connected."


And I'm willing to bet that they will get sued over it (and lose based upon this decision).
 
2014-02-13 07:59:22 PM  

lostcat: It seems like this ruling, even if it is not appealed, doesn't directly affect more than a handful of counties, and at most removes the requirement for the applicant to indicate their immediate need, in favor of a more general explanation of need. The waiting period and mandatory safety training are still in place and weren't even challenged. And the local government gets to decide what type of carry permit you receive.


What it does do is remove the idea  that in order to get a CCW, you have to show "need" - a nebulous concept that can be interpreted in many arbitrary ways.
 
2014-02-13 07:59:50 PM  

lewismarktwo: Finger51: My question to our collection of farklawyerguys: Can I apply for a CCW if I don't own a weapon? Planning on getting my Boobiesol some time this year ... I guess I'll need it before applying?
/live in Oakland

Yes, you can apply without owning a handgun (unless your area requires a CCW tied to each handgun you own), but to complete the safety course you will need access to one.  Most classes have a few 9mm or .22 pistols for rent during the class.


When I got my original CCW (20+ years ago now.  Yeesh ) they required you to qualify with a .45 ACP and a .44 revolver.  There were some small boned people sweating that when they heard the news.

Fortunately we were also qualifying with "Range Ammo" which apparently had just enough grunt to get the ACP to cycle.
 
2014-02-13 08:00:12 PM  
This is a serious problem. I do not understand why the judges did not take into account the substantially high rate of violent crime committed by concealed weapons permit holders when issuing their ruling.
 
2014-02-13 08:00:53 PM  
Since CA is usually a festival of anti-gun legislation, this is a really amazing development and I really hope this stands.  We really needed a win in contrast to all the usual setbacks crafted by our legislators who are busy quaking in fear of "ghost guns", Bullet Buttons, and repair kits for our magazines.  Since the last attempt to make this a Shall Issue state died quickly in committee last year, I fully expect them to fight this.

I just wish they understood that carrying does not turn us into the roving thugs they think it does.
 
2014-02-13 08:01:54 PM  

Pointy Tail of Satan: KInda makes you wonder how people in countries like Canada survive. Why are we not all dead from raging armed maniacs on the street?

Or maybe we just are not collective cowards.


Population density?

Ever wonder why there's more crime committed in cities than in rural areas? It's because there are more people per unit area.
 
2014-02-13 08:02:03 PM  

OnlyM3: You mean like zero re-writing obama care? I would have sworn the USC said Congress not the exec. branch writes law.,


Except that didn't happen.
 
2014-02-13 08:03:45 PM  
When was the last time someone was murdered with a concealed carry weapon?
 
2014-02-13 08:04:17 PM  

Skyd1v: Fortunately we were also qualifying with "Range Ammo" which apparently had just enough grunt to get the ACP to cycle.


Probably because it saves on wear and tear on  weapons that get fired thousands of times and not so much to make it easier on the shooter.
 
2014-02-13 08:08:22 PM  
Feinstein, Pelosi, and Boxer must be spinning in their graves at this news.
 
2014-02-13 08:09:06 PM  

fluffy2097: When was the last time someone was murdered with a concealed carry weapon?


Found this:

Currently, Concealed Carry Killers documents 465 incidents in 33 states and the District of Columbia resulting in 622 deaths. In 84 percent of the incidents (390) the concealed carry killer committed suicide (189), has already been convicted (151), perpetrated a murder-suicide (38), or was killed in the incident (12). Of the 60 cases still pending, the vast majority (50) of concealed carry killers have been charged with criminal homicide, four were deemed incompetent to stand trial, and six incidents are still under investigation. An additional 15 incidents were fatal unintentional shootings involving the gun of the concealed handgun permit holder. At least 14 of the victims were law enforcement officers. Twenty-seven of the incidents were mass shootings, resulting in the deaths of 128 victims.
(
http://www.vpc.org/ccwkillers.htm)
 
2014-02-13 08:09:34 PM  
*reads thresd*

I love this sh*t.
 
2014-02-13 08:10:31 PM  

the money is in the banana stand: I have known far too many people who have suffered from not being armed than I know people who have been the victim


Your conclusion that their being armed would have always ended in a better outcome for your victims is, at best, debatable.
 
2014-02-13 08:13:41 PM  

Radioactive Ass: And I'm willing to bet that they will get sued over it (and lose based upon this decision).


Considering that OPD has taken essentially no action on the the terms of the Riders settlement over a decade ago, I'm confident that no permits will get issued even if the City and County do lose.

By the way, does anyone have an idea if this ruling affects whether cities must issue permits?  In at least some counties, the Sheriff has a stated policy of only considering permits for residents of unincorporated areas.
 
2014-02-13 08:14:17 PM  

ElLoco: LoneWolf343: The ninth is only agreeing on how the Constitution should be read, not that the Constitution is above scrutiny. Conservatives tend to treat the Constitution like it is the immutable Word of God*, despite the fact that it has been changed multiple times, and changed back once.

Yea, see... that's the deal. If people want it changed, they need to change it. It specifically allows for a process to do just that. If people don't like the Second Amendment... draft legislation, have all those votes


The problem being, our legislature is bought out by the gun lobby. Despite overwhelming public outcry for gun legislation, from more rules to a reworking of the amendment, neither house of Congress is capable of passing that legislation. Because money.

Personally, I'd like to put a little rework on that 1st Amendment, but just grandly announcing that "Everything is ok. It's changed now because we're going to do it like this instead." doesn't get the job done.

I'd like to hear what your issues with the 1st Amendment are.
 
2014-02-13 08:16:44 PM  

lostcat: fluffy2097: When was the last time someone was murdered with a concealed carry weapon?

Found this:

Currently, Concealed Carry Killers documents 465 incidents in 33 states and the District of Columbia resulting in 622 deaths. In 84 percent of the incidents (390) the concealed carry killer committed suicide (189), has already been convicted (151), perpetrated a murder-suicide (38), or was killed in the incident (12). Of the 60 cases still pending, the vast majority (50) of concealed carry killers have been charged with criminal homicide, four were deemed incompetent to stand trial, and six incidents are still under investigation. An additional 15 incidents were fatal unintentional shootings involving the gun of the concealed handgun permit holder. At least 14 of the victims were law enforcement officers. Twenty-seven of the incidents were mass shootings, resulting in the deaths of 128 victims.
(http://www.vpc.org/ccwkillers.htm)


Wow. They count suicides?

Also, they count people who live in states that don't require a CCW permit to carry a firearm. I guess they need to pump up their numbers.

So, by that logic, every suicide in Arizona would be counted as a 'murder committed by a CCW permit holder.'

Unbelievable.

"Concealed Handgun Permit Holder: Carey H. Dyess
Suicide
Date: June 2, 2011
People Killed: 6 (including shooter)
Circumstances: On June 2, 2011, Carey H. Dyess, 73, went on an hours-long shooting
rampage in two communities, killing five before taking his own life. In Arizona legal gun
owners can carry concealed handguns without a permit."

As Arizona does not issue CCW permits, how could this guy be a "Concealed Handgun Permit Holder"?
 
2014-02-13 08:17:44 PM  

fnordfocus: Radioactive Ass: And I'm willing to bet that they will get sued over it (and lose based upon this decision).

Considering that OPD has taken essentially no action on the the terms of the Riders settlement over a decade ago, I'm confident that no permits will get issued even if the City and County do lose.

By the way, does anyone have an idea if this ruling affects whether cities must issue permits?  In at least some counties, the Sheriff has a stated policy of only considering permits for residents of unincorporated areas.


Decision sounds pretty definitive.  They'll appeal to SCOTUS and get smacked down like DC did with Heller.  The Supreme Court doesn't like to reverse itself.  Then they'll have to be reasonable about it.

Same old story everywhere.  Wonder how many law abiding citizens will have to suffer before the municipalities get their heads out of their asses.

Oh and I'm sure there's a presidential "I'm very disappointed in this decision" coming too
 
2014-02-13 08:19:28 PM  

sugar_fetus: the money is in the banana stand: I don't feel safer or less safe with people here being able to concealed carry. There are times however I feel safer when I carry than not. I haven't had to ever draw thankfully, but I would rather have that ability should I need it than not. I have known far too many people who have suffered from not being armed than I know people who have been the victim of an accident (none) or the victim of someone who carries legally (none).

I don't feel safer when carrying.. I have a spare tire and jack in my car, and a fire extinguisher in my kitchen. Neither one of them protects me from flats or fires, so neither make me feel safer.

They all, however, make me more prepared in case something does go wrong.


I've been assured time and again on Fark that preparation for unlikely events indicates paranoia.  That's why I stopped wearing a seat belt and threw away my smoke detectors.
 
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