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(Washington Post)   The good thing about cutting off federal unemployment benefits is that economists can collect more data on the "Kramer Effect": How people with no clear means of income live   (washingtonpost.com) divider line 215
    More: Misc, unemployment benefits, economists, Capitol Heights, NELP, Alan Krueger, William McKinley, incomes, Cosmo Kramer  
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6368 clicks; posted to Main » on 12 Feb 2014 at 2:11 PM (23 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-02-12 05:41:37 PM

wildcardjack: Yeah, I have a BS in mechanical engineering and I wouldn't be fit to work in the average burger joint. The griddles are built to 39" and I'm 6'5", I'd have to bend over to flip burgers. That's not a long term option.


If only there were someone with the skill set and credentials to craft, to devise, to design, to, er, what's the technical term, figger out a solution to that physical griddle height issue.   :)
 
2014-02-12 05:43:47 PM

payattention: tlars699 - Want? Nobody really. Has to be? Someone who has to support two small children?

I knew you were going to say this. I will point out again.... I said 'want'... not 'had to'...

And the previous statement is against the law, I think. Harrassment/retaliation? IANAL, so if you are, please help me out.I mean if you can prove the trumped up reasons are in fact trumped up?

I am aware it is against the law, which is why I said that these people were in fact fired for silly/petty/ no reason... after all, it is a RTW state (well, there's your problem... :/)and they can fire you for NO reason and not have to explain it to anyone. Unless you can prove malice, which is almost impossible for anyone without the resources of amajor corporation. Which, if you have beenkeeping up on current economic affairs, is about 1% of the US population. Indeed, I have, and I'm well aware of such.

Also, if you're looking for an alternate job you
1. Don't list references from anyone in your current employment situation. You keep in contact with outside references, and use those.

If your career path is in a career that is rather specific and small.. like, say being a post-cardiological examiner as an example (I am not one) how are you going to keep it quiet? Such businesses have seminars, they have people who work throughout the profession... how are you going to get another job in such a field when they all know each other, not just in your area, but nation-wide?
Very good point. You can still attempt for find an alternate medical position, but I can see where this would get tricky (such as having to start out at the bottom rung again/get certified prior, etc).
However, if you're this highly specialized, surely you can address such and negotiate for a better rate or pay for your work, right?

2. Don't tell anyone about looking for alternate employment, aside from your spousal unit who doesn't work for the company.

As stated above, it is not a question of talking about it... in some situations it is impossible for your search NOT to get out...
In some, but in engineering/ other more generic jobs, not so much. This was also partly in response to someone who was an engineer, became a telemarketer, and then  found a new job as an engineer.

3. DON"T LOOK FOR OTHER JOBS ONLINE WHILE AT YOUR CURRENT JOB.

They were not.In one of the instances I mentioned, they had told no one. But, the HR person of Company B knew the HR person in company A and mentioned getting a resume from my friend because his name came up in normal conversation. Illegal? Maybe... but again, see above reference to ab ...
This person should be reported to their company. They violated at least the policy therein, if not the law.
missed in quote:
There is also something called 'bad luck', which is something that, if never experienced, can easily be ignored. However, it is very real and can destroy a person in every way in a very short space of time, regardless of 'intelligent decisions' and an economically sound lifestyle.


Yes, indeed, and agreed. I'm not saying there isn't.
But when you intentionally delay getting a job in the off-chance that you may find a new one of approximate equal value, my point was that this is not a viable way to live, and expect to have come true.
That isn't bad luck, but more of purposeful ignorance, which I abhor and do my upmost to counteract.

As I've said before, we shouldn't cut off unemployment benefits whole hog, but perhaps come up with an alternate plan so that they may be better used, such as a relocation payment available prior to tax season.

Also, people on said benefits should do all that they can feasibly do to try and find some sort of bootstrap to get out of that situation. Not saying that most don't; they do. Just saying Everyone Should.
 
2014-02-12 05:43:57 PM

Cerebral Ballsy: That's all it is.. Figure out what you want, and how much you're willing to give up to get it.


A lot of what you said is true, however when you have a family to provide for - that all changes. You are going to want to put them in a good school and not live in the ghetto. You are going to want to make sure they eat healthy. You are going to want to buy them a car probably and put them through college. You are going to have to pay for a wedding assuming they get married. You might have your wife stay home to take care of the kids, thus creating another dependent. You are going to want to have a reliable and safe vehicle for your family. You are going to want to have nice toys etc. It gets expensive real fast. When it is just you, sure life is really easy and if that is forever satisfying to you - great, but some of us want or have families.
 
2014-02-12 05:44:05 PM
If you think living on unemployment benefits is so good, go ahead and quit your job and live on it. Seriously. Oh, you'd rather keep your job and have a good income and all that goes with it? Funny that.
 
2014-02-12 05:49:33 PM

the money is in the banana stand: Cerebral Ballsy: That's all it is.. Figure out what you want, and how much you're willing to give up to get it.

A lot of what you said is true, however when you have a family to provide for - that all changes. You are going to want to put them in a good school and not live in the ghetto. You are going to want to make sure they eat healthy. You are going to want to buy them a car probably and put them through college. You are going to have to pay for a wedding assuming they get married. You might have your wife stay home to take care of the kids, thus creating another dependent. You are going to want to have a reliable and safe vehicle for your family. You are going to want to have nice toys etc. It gets expensive real fast. When it is just you, sure life is really easy and if that is forever satisfying to you - great, but some of us want or have families.


I guess that still falls under the find out what you want bit. If you want the family and all the associated stuff then you have decided it's worth having to work to pay for it all. Unless you are one of those in the top 1%, who just work so much harder, obviously.
 
2014-02-12 05:55:12 PM
Funny thing.  I can't work because my employer fired me under very false allegations, partially damaging my clearance, in a way that makes me around $15k-$20k more expensive than the next guy for any future employers to hire.  I can't not work with the federal extensions turned off.

All of the competing companies seem to actively want to hire me, but are unwilling to roll the dice on a $15k-$20k bet.  Stuck in the middle I am.

Due to my (now former) employers' other goings-on, I was interviewed by the House Oversight Committee in December.  Surprisingly enough, I had mostly (other than being fired) good things to say about the company.

It's strange- I don't want to win (or lose, natch) a fight (legal, public, etc.) with the company.  I don't want to be in the fight to begin with.  Unless I can step back into my old job or move forward into a new job, I'm stuck in the middle in a situation where I appear to be forced into that fight.  I just want to go back to work, either with my former employer or a competitor.  Got a kid to feed, mortgage to pay, etc..
 
2014-02-12 05:55:43 PM

Nidiot: the money is in the banana stand: Cerebral Ballsy: That's all it is.. Figure out what you want, and how much you're willing to give up to get it.

A lot of what you said is true, however when you have a family to provide for - that all changes. You are going to want to put them in a good school and not live in the ghetto. You are going to want to make sure they eat healthy. You are going to want to buy them a car probably and put them through college. You are going to have to pay for a wedding assuming they get married. You might have your wife stay home to take care of the kids, thus creating another dependent. You are going to want to have a reliable and safe vehicle for your family. You are going to want to have nice toys etc. It gets expensive real fast. When it is just you, sure life is really easy and if that is forever satisfying to you - great, but some of us want or have families.

I guess that still falls under the find out what you want bit. If you want the family and all the associated stuff then you have decided it's worth having to work to pay for it all. Unless you are one of those in the top 1%, who just work so much harder, obviously.


Hey, my sarcasm meter is working!! lolz
 
2014-02-12 05:57:24 PM
meh.  I was out of work for 1 year, living with the parents, and sending out resumes all over the place.  I have a degree in a computer-related field, but no one was hiring.  I started my own business doing design work, but after finding some work, I called that off and gave most of my clients over to a girl who did better work, though she charged much more for it.  I worked at the job for 3 years, always being promised better hours and more pay, though they never materialized.  I did my job, learned the best practices, and kicked ass at the position.  I came in whenever they called me, covering for the run of drunks and idiots who were hired for grunt labor.  I did my job, learned the duties of those above my station, and started doing their jobs at the same pay.  I was the perfect employee because I got shiate done and the customer/client was happy at the end of the day.  I didn't complain about the overtime, the lack of breaks, working though lunches, long hours, and the crappy commute to work after I was transferred when my original location was shut down for remodeling.

Then I started thinking about getting a different job, one that didn't suck as much.  I was hired on the spot of my first interview due to shining reviews from co-workers and my boss, who then tried to keep me on with the promise of more money and a management position.  Same promises they'd been making for 2 years, so I kept my bridges intact and tactfully declined before moving my employment to the new job.  The new position paid less than the previous one, but the hours are better and I don't have to take my work home with me when I leave the building.

After the [paid] training, I set about to make myself a shining employee to the new employer.  I've done so, and I am working on getting into management, with the glowing reviews of all my supervisors backing me up.  In 6 months, I've gotten 2 promotions, which is unheard of in the region.  I've been the employee they call when someone calls in sick.  I am given tasks and I carry them out without complaint, and do my best to complete them.  I am on track to be a rising star in the company, and my future potential is without limits.  I see those around me slacking off and generally taking every shortcut they can in order to just get the day over.  The vast majority of people will take the easy way out of their duties, in order to get their shift over.  When they are scheduled to leave, they leave.  I am on the short list of people who are worth the overtime to keep me at work, because I complete work.  I get shiat done.

I see everyone complaining about the positions they have to take in order to make ends meet.  What most people don't get is that while many of the jobs which are available today are entry-level, they are stepping stones to the next level.  That position at McD's flipping burgers is a 6 month gig which familiarizes the new employee with the business and gives the business time to evaluate the employee for their potential.  If you come in, do the work, and go home, you are written off as a menial employee, and you have only yourself to blame when someone else comes in and shines at the position, and gets the promotion ahead of you.

Yes, the minimum wage sucks, and the "living wage" needs to be re-evaluated ... upwards, but the point of the starting shiat job is to make the person want to move up in the company.  If you make the company want to keep you, then the company will be beholden to make you want to stay with the company, be it with raises or promotions or both.  Sitting at home and moaning and groaning on the computer will solve nothing, and it wastes the time you have to make the company want you to succeed, which makes the company succeed.

/off your collective butts and get working
//and put your cell phone away!
 
2014-02-12 06:04:00 PM
coeyagi

Ooh, a social experiment! A social Science experiment! Well, there goes GOP support.... right?

GOP hasn't supported your 7 year experiment in killing minority employment:
Black Unemployment Returns to Double White Rate Under Obama


Black Labor Force Participation Rate Under Obama Hits Rock Bottom - Lowest Level Ever Recorded


NAACP president: Black people worse off under Obama


Minorities Disproportionately Worse Off Under Obama
 
2014-02-12 06:08:01 PM
Wendy's Chili

What a compelling anecdote. I'm voting for Reagan!

From the same derp-ers who complain about Teleprompter jokes comes derp about a president that hasn't been in office (or even alive) for over 15 years
 
2014-02-12 06:10:50 PM
Wendy's Chili

What a compelling anecdote. I'm voting for Reagan!

The unemployment and economic indicators showing minorities being crushed by the obama recession won't change your vote, we sure as fark don't expect any logic in your decision making.

Though... hating minorities has been a long standing Democrat tradition
Trail of tears ... democrat president
Japanese Internment ... democrat president
KKK Formation ... democrats
Senator Robert Byrd KKK Recruiter/Leader ... Democrat.
 
2014-02-12 06:12:45 PM
How about starting your own soap company. Buy fat from mortuaries, or free lance it on the street, get some oak ashes an run water through them=lye. Fat and lye make soap, put in cheap perfume, wrap it in fancy but cheap foil and get people to sell it on commission. Water and alcohol with some blue dye in it makes a great window cleaner, the spray bottles are about 21cents each in bulk. Now you have a two product line.
I've started 3 companies since  "retired".
I have another idea that is VERY marketable, if obummer hadn't gotten back in office it would be going great guns by now...I didn't set up a production facility because politics.
Funny part is, I don't need the money. I'm set, but damn, travel gets boring, high class hookers are not up to the standard pickups I can make (I only ask beautiful women out) I have the big house, the well tended grounds, the mexican maid, and I still start companies and sell them once they are in the black or give them to people I like (Cyber-Coop was gifted to a guy who just hated bosses).
I've never really understood poors because I was never one myself, but I'm not smarter than anybody, and I just see needs and fill them, and that turns into money(which I already had) so I always paid well, people who screw their employees should be drawn and quartered.
There are more opportunities out there than folks realize, don't look for a job, make one, that makes 12, then 24 and so on.
I did this as an experiment in Dallas Texas in 87.
I picked an off ramp, put up a deck chair with a beach umbrella over it, with my boom box booming, and a 5 gallon bucket that said DONATIONS HERE. I put up signs people read coming down the exit. They said "I'm not hungry", "I'm not homeless", "I have a job", "BUT", "I would enjoy a tropical vacation" people threw money in the bucket like crazy I got a lot of thumbs up as I sat in my beach chair wearing a sombrero, in my best Hawaiian shirt, sipping a pina colada. Made over 1,200 in 3 days "only worked" from 3;30 till 6.
Try it, hey if ya ain't doin anything else, people will pay for a good laugh. Especially when they'd like a trip to Tahiti too.
Good luck and keep on smiling!
 
2014-02-12 06:13:35 PM

Smeggy Smurf: If you don't have the government enabling you to sit on the couch you'll do what your grandparents did and move to where the work is.  I hear the Dakotas and Texas are hiring.


So you're telling me that collecting unemployment for the 2 weeks I was unemployed while the HR department did its thing and the place I interviewed at the day after I was laid off is "the government enabling me to sit on the couch?"

Go fark yourself.
 
2014-02-12 06:14:34 PM

bikerific: Because obviously unemployed people drinking on the stoop are a big voting demographic.


I assumed she meant congress.
 
2014-02-12 06:16:47 PM

iq_in_binary: Smeggy Smurf: If you don't have the government enabling you to sit on the couch you'll do what your grandparents did and move to where the work is.  I hear the Dakotas and Texas are hiring.

So you're telling me that collecting unemployment for the 2 weeks I was unemployed while the HR department did its thing and the place I interviewed at the day after I was laid off is "the government enabling me to sit on the couch?"

Go fark yourself.


No. This doesn't count, even by conservative standards.
 
2014-02-12 06:18:27 PM

Thunderpipes: Bet it doesn't cost taxpayers as much.


You're gonna lose that one. People working jobs that don't support them still get government aid, and now have extra expenses like transportation, child care, lack of access to education, reduced access to health care, etc. It's often a net loss compared to just giving them enough money to eat and stay indoors.
 
2014-02-12 06:20:09 PM

Thai_Mai_Xhu: How about starting your own soap company. Buy fat from mortuaries, or free lance it on the street, get some oak ashes an run water through them=lye. Fat and lye make soap, put in cheap perfume, wrap it in fancy but cheap foil and get people to sell it on commission. Water and alcohol with some blue dye in it makes a great window cleaner, the spray bottles are about 21cents each in bulk. Now you have a two product line.
I've started 3 companies since  "retired".
I have another idea that is VERY marketable, if obummer hadn't gotten back in office it would be going great guns by now...I didn't set up a production facility because politics.
Funny part is, I don't need the money. I'm set, but damn, travel gets boring, high class hookers are not up to the standard pickups I can make (I only ask beautiful women out) I have the big house, the well tended grounds, the mexican maid, and I still start companies and sell them once they are in the black or give them to people I like (Cyber-Coop was gifted to a guy who just hated bosses).
I've never really understood poors because I was never one myself, but I'm not smarter than anybody, and I just see needs and fill them, and that turns into money(which I already had) so I always paid well, people who screw their employees should be drawn and quartered.
There are more opportunities out there than folks realize, don't look for a job, make one, that makes 12, then 24 and so on.
I did this as an experiment in Dallas Texas in 87.
I picked an off ramp, put up a deck chair with a beach umbrella over it, with my boom box booming, and a 5 gallon bucket that said DONATIONS HERE. I put up signs people read coming down the exit. They said "I'm not hungry", "I'm not homeless", "I have a job", "BUT", "I would enjoy a tropical vacation" people threw money in the bucket like crazy I got a lot of thumbs up as I sat in my beach chair wearing a sombrero, in my best Hawaiian shirt, sipping a pina colada. Made over 1,200 in 3 days "only worked" fro ...


Sheep Farm in Detriot mid-lands. Need about $1600 to start up, including what it would take to Buy the land.
Once you have enough sheep you can start selling off lambs for meat, and shearing the adults for wool, and sell the wool online.

Sheep are DUMB, but aside from that... who knows?
 
2014-02-12 06:24:46 PM

Trance354: That position at McD's flipping burgers is a 6 month gig which familiarizes the new employee with the business and gives the business time to evaluate the employee for their potential.  If you come in, do the work, and go home, you are written off as a menial employee, and you have only yourself to blame when someone else comes in and shines at the position, and gets the promotion ahead of you.


That's a nice story, but it's not what actual studies show. Decade-long studies of adults working at fast food restaurants show that only about 22% of them make it out of poverty, and that's when the economy is good. Even if we accept your story as reality -- which would require us to believe that nearly 80% of adult fast-food workers are too unmotivated to really want work their way out of poverty -- it's still a problem with the system because keeping people forever in poverty is bad not just for them but for society as a whole, regardless of their motivation.
 
2014-02-12 06:27:35 PM

profplump: Thunderpipes: Bet it doesn't cost taxpayers as much.

You're gonna lose that one. People working jobs that don't support them still get government aid, and now have extra expenses like transportation, child care, lack of access to education, reduced access to health care, etc. It's often a net loss compared to just giving them enough money to eat and stay indoors.


This.

If they're *THAT* aggressively non-functional and non-contributing, I will pay for them to not starve*.  Because it's cheaper.  And then we have less crime and real upward labor pressures.

*In places like Tulsa, because Tulsa rich is cheaper than NYC poor.  You want to be useless in NYC, fark you.  I'll pay for Tulsa.
 
2014-02-12 06:29:13 PM
Oh ffs, wah wah wah, it's costing taxpayers money therefore I have less money, so therefore the poors are getting my money, my money damn it, mine, I want it, wah wah wah.

The money you pay in taxes isn't going to be given back to you once the government has it, the only issue is about where it goes once the government has it, so get over it. Has anyone even worked out what a minuscule amount it would be if the money currently going to pay the unemployed were to be "given back"?
 
2014-02-12 06:39:35 PM

Nidiot: Oh ffs, wah wah wah, it's costing taxpayers money therefore I have less money, so therefore the poors are getting my money, my money damn it, mine, I want it, wah wah wah.

The money you pay in taxes isn't going to be given back to you once the government has it, the only issue is about where it goes once the government has it, so get over it. Has anyone even worked out what a minuscule amount it would be if the money currently going to pay the unemployed were to be "given back"?


??? What are you on about? Aside from thunDERPipes and other politicians, who has said anything about taxes in this thread?

We should all be taxed a bit more, and have ACTUAL representation in our governing bodies.
 
2014-02-12 06:44:23 PM

profplump: Trance354: That position at McD's flipping burgers is a 6 month gig which familiarizes the new employee with the business and gives the business time to evaluate the employee for their potential.  If you come in, do the work, and go home, you are written off as a menial employee, and you have only yourself to blame when someone else comes in and shines at the position, and gets the promotion ahead of you.

That's a nice story, but it's not what actual studies show. Decade-long studies of adults working at fast food restaurants show that only about 22% of them make it out of poverty, and that's when the economy is good. Even if we accept your story as reality -- which would require us to believe that nearly 80% of adult fast-food workers are too unmotivated to really want work their way out of poverty -- it's still a problem with the system because keeping people forever in poverty is bad not just for them but for society as a whole, regardless of their motivation.


ok, first off, one does not necessarily have to stay at McD's.  One can kick ass and work well with others and find a higher paying job elsewhere with the references gained by kicking ass at McD's.  Then start the process over again, kicking butt and being a shining example of an employee.  I worked at the one job for 3 years without a promotion and shiate wages.  I did get the biggest pay raises in the region, but we're talking about an increase of 20-25 cents.  Per hour.  Those types of business practices are out there, and they stifle your ability to grow.  The boss also didn't want to lose me, so he gave me as many hours as I wanted.  Mind you, this was during the worst of the economic downturn, so having a job was a minor miracle to most people.  The economy improved and my butt was looking for a new employer.  Not on the job, and it didn't change how well I worked for the company.  I just wanted out.

Working your way up also means finding the right position and company in which to move up into management.  Sticking with a losing company in order to climb the ladder isn't the point.  Finding the company which will allow you to rise to the top is.

/farking around on your cell phone at work is not the way to do it.
//most of my co-workers don't seem to want to rise in the ranks
 
2014-02-12 06:49:18 PM
end EIC, its federal subsidy of minimum wage.
 
2014-02-12 06:50:00 PM

What_do_you_want_now: Pangea: Of course it's not the job you wish for. I was out of work for 13 weeks in 2002 after losing my job making $72,000 a year and unable to find a job that was "up to my standards."

Do you know what I did when benefits ran out? I took a job paying $49,000 a year that I would have called "beneath me" a few weeks earlier.

Holy smokes?! BENEATH YOU?!

I'd do some pretty unspeakable things to get to $49k/yr, so remember your "beneath me" is someone else's "couple of rungs up".

BTW, not a burger flipper. I'm an IT Manager, and I took this job because the person who had it before me got fired.


HOLY shiat YOU MUST SUCK AT YOUR JOB.

49K for an IT Manager???
 
2014-02-12 06:50:52 PM

tlars699: We should all be taxed a bit more, and have ACTUAL representation in our governing bodies.


Except that a pretty large portion of the country doesn't think we should all get taxed more.  (Even the Libs are "1%", not "you personally").  If you make any money at all on the coasts (Read: Might be able to afford own apartment with roommates), you're running about 40-45% marginal taxes, and losing 30-40% to taxes (That's 40-67% of takehome).

So we can have more taxes OR actual representation.  Pick one.
 
2014-02-12 06:54:21 PM

fat_free: 49K for an IT Manager???


Depends where you are.

$49K in a blue state?  What are you, stupid?  Frigging janitors make more than you, because wages are so high because of the damn rent taking it all.
$49K in a red state?  Damn, that's like a house and a yard + 2 kids + dog before we add in the wife's matching salary.  What are you doing right?

/Overgeneralization (It's more Coastal cities vs. Everyone else), but.
 
2014-02-12 06:56:20 PM

meyerkev: fat_free: 49K for an IT Manager???

Depends where you are.

$49K in a blue state?  What are you, stupid?  Frigging janitors make more than you, because wages are so high because of the damn rent taking it all.
$49K in a red state?  Damn, that's like a house and a yard + 2 kids + dog before we add in the wife's matching salary.  What are you doing right?

/Overgeneralization (It's more Coastal cities vs. Everyone else), but.


Not to mention it was a decade ago.
 
2014-02-12 06:59:41 PM
Those who do not work shall not eat, comrades.
 
2014-02-12 07:00:30 PM

new_york_monty: meyerkev: fat_free: 49K for an IT Manager???

Depends where you are.

$49K in a blue state?  What are you, stupid?  Frigging janitors make more than you, because wages are so high because of the damn rent taking it all.
$49K in a red state?  Damn, that's like a house and a yard + 2 kids + dog before we add in the wife's matching salary.  What are you doing right?

/Overgeneralization (It's more Coastal cities vs. Everyone else), but.

Not to mention it was a decade ago.


If you take a job as an IT Manager for less than 25 bucks an hour, you are either a bad hire who can't find anything else or a tard. Or both.
 
2014-02-12 07:03:39 PM

Clemkadidlefark: No one has ever explained why you .. yes you .. are entitled to other people's money ..


And you have never explained why you think of your entire gross salary as "your money".

In some more enlightened places, salaries are quoted net of all taxes and other deductions.

Your money is your NET pay, not your gross.
 
2014-02-12 07:06:12 PM

fat_free: new_york_monty: meyerkev: fat_free: 49K for an IT Manager???

Depends where you are.

$49K in a blue state?  What are you, stupid?  Frigging janitors make more than you, because wages are so high because of the damn rent taking it all.
$49K in a red state?  Damn, that's like a house and a yard + 2 kids + dog before we add in the wife's matching salary.  What are you doing right?

/Overgeneralization (It's more Coastal cities vs. Everyone else), but.

Not to mention it was a decade ago.

If you take a job as an IT Manager for less than 25 bucks an hour, you are either a bad hire who can't find anything else or a tard. Or both.


Not my field, so I have no real idea about that. Maybe it's true where you are. But like the guy above me said, money spends a lot different in the country, and pay scales tend to be commensurate. Frankly, you come across as someone who's never traveled toward the middle of the country, but still thinks he knows what life is like there.
 
2014-02-12 07:06:39 PM

tlars699: Lawnchair: tlars699: A reference is the people you worked with while there. Such as your previous manager, or co-workers you may have had, to see what you're like as an employee.New employers call these people at home, so the references are not under pressure from work to give a short review, and to see what you are like as a person.

And, again, the formal policy from my employer to my direct supervisor (and to me regarding co-workers) is, "If you get a call like this at work or at home, refer them to the HR number. Anything else has the risk of a libel suit.".   I think my supervisor would bend that (and hopefully many would), but that's very much the policy.


It's not libel if you tell the truth, and can prove what was said was true.
Also, they don't tell you which reference gave you a bad review that prevented your hiring, so these policies are stupid.


Libel is decided by a judge and by that time you've already been sued and lost money to a lawyer.
 
2014-02-12 07:08:53 PM

What_do_you_want_now: Pangea: Of course it's not the job you wish for. I was out of work for 13 weeks in 2002 after losing my job making $72,000 a year and unable to find a job that was "up to my standards."

Do you know what I did when benefits ran out? I took a job paying $49,000 a year that I would have called "beneath me" a few weeks earlier.

Holy smokes?! BENEATH YOU?!

I'd do some pretty unspeakable things to get to $49k/yr, so remember your "beneath me" is someone else's "couple of rungs up".

BTW, not a burger flipper. I'm an IT Manager, and I took this job because the person who had it before me got fired.


I wasn't trying to be dismissive. I fully realize how self-centered and entitled I was.

That was just where my head was when my situation forced me to get some much needed perspective.

I was willing to hold out for what I thought I deserved when I had other options. Once reality set in, I was grateful just to have an offer.
 
GBB
2014-02-12 07:11:12 PM

Dr Dreidel: GBB: [www.washingtonpost.com image 296x586]
Much like global warming, the trend is obvious, so surely it will be refuted.

1. Just saying "BLS data" doesn't say much. Is it using the same BLS data throughout, or is that one of those charts that goes from U3 to U6 without telling us when or why?
2. You mean the most recent recession - the worst since The Great Depression - is worse than the postwar boom period (the largest expansion of wealth and access to it in US history)?! Get the fark out of town.
3. So what you're saying is: there are more unemployed people than there have been in 70 years, so we should spend EVEN LESS money than we spend now making sure they can pay rent and gas bills to avoid further descent into poverty. Great plan; I'm sure everyone will just decide to be employed tomorrow.


So are you saying you can't read, or you don't understand what you're reading?
 
2014-02-12 07:13:40 PM

mcreadyblue: Lawnchair: tlars699: A reference is the people you worked with while there. Such as your previous manager, or co-workers you may have had, to see what you're like as an employee.New employers call these people at home, so the references are not under pressure from work to give a short review, and to see what you are like as a person.

And, again, the formal policy from my employer to my direct supervisor (and to me regarding co-workers) is, "If you get a call like this at work or at home, refer them to the HR number. Anything else has the risk of a libel suit.".   I think my supervisor would bend that (and hopefully many would), but that's very much the policy.

I always say

"you'll be lucky to get this guy to work for you" or

"I am pleased to say that this candidate is a former colleague of mine" or

"I most enthusiastically recommend this candidate with no qualifications whatsoever"


So, the first one means that he was a lazy so-and-so who never did any work?
And the second one means you were really glad to see the last of him because he was a backstabbing sob?
And the third one means he lies on his resume?
 
2014-02-12 07:16:44 PM

meyerkev: tlars699: We should all be taxed a bit more, and have ACTUAL representation in our governing bodies.

Except that a pretty large portion of the country doesn't think we should all get taxed more.  (Even the Libs are "1%", not "you personally").  If you make any money at all on the coasts (Read: Might be able to afford own apartment with roommates), you're running about 40-45% marginal taxes, and losing 30-40% to taxes (That's 40-67% of takehome).

So we can have more taxes OR actual representation.  Pick one.


You just explained one half of that choice.
 Why can't we have "actual representation", aka politicians who aren't necessarily lawyers that make over 150,000 a year at their "day-jobs"?
No taxation without it, remember?

And seems to me that you guys on the coast must not have the Homestead credits in your state, where you get a certain portion of your paid rent back, or you have too many roommates, or are not living within your means, or are not making enough at your job...

 Are you sure you're getting a good tax rep for yourself?
So many people file on their onesie, and wonder why they pay in so much. :\
It wouldn't be so bad to pay in if you can get that money back. Hope you do. :(

I think even the libs would  say fair is fair if they raised it .05% for the poorest level, and 10% for the highest level of incomes, as I consider myself a liberal. It basically means that while you pay in a little more, as a lower income person, you would get all of it back at the end of the tax season.
 
2014-02-12 07:19:52 PM

pdieten: Clemkadidlefark: No one has ever explained why you .. yes you .. are entitled to other people's money ..

And you have never explained why you think of your entire gross salary as "your money".

In some more enlightened places, salaries are quoted net of all taxes and other deductions.

Your money is your NET pay, not your gross.


Techinically, "YOUR MONEY" isn't even "yours" at all. You did not "make" it, you "earned" it.  It was someone else's money that they gave to you, because they thought that the work you do was worth it.

Eventually you end up giving it back to them by investing, or buying their products, etc.

So, it's never "your money".
 
2014-02-12 07:27:04 PM
tlars699 - But when you intentionally delay getting a job in the off-chance that you may find a new one of approximate equal value, my point was that this is not a viable way to live, and expect to have come true.

I agree. In my case, this does not apply. I injured myself, pretty much permanently, at my work. I was denied workers comp because A) no insurance company is going to pay a cent unless they are forced to and even then they are going to fight it as long as they can. I am not a 1% corporation, therefore, I cannot fight them on this, and B), the medical profession, thanks to ridiculous lawsuits, refuses to take a stand on anything unless it is also un-fightable. Since my injury is not visible, they decide I am either not injured (the old 'If he is not bleeding from the ears, then he must be okay), or I am lying. I was fired a year after this. (In fact, today is my one year anniversary of being fired). Some days I cannot even move more than a few feet and have to sit here in constant pain on the heating pad. My former doctor refused me anything for this after my last visit, (the second in a year... let me repeat this, TWO visits in one YEAR!) on the grounds that I might be one of those people who shop around to different doctors for prescriptions. I have only gone to this lady and a chiropractor (which I now cannot afford). Being, a life-long manic depressive and anxiety sufferer, this has served to pretty much destroy me in every way. I am 50. I have no illusions about finding any work because no one has offered anything... even an illusion. So, again, I agree with your statement, but it does not include me although it kind of does seem to. To say my butt is sore from all the screwing is an understatement. Yet, they are cutting what tiny help I am getting. And, as I posted after the one you replied to, I can't even attempt an honorable departure, because the cops will show up, probably kill both my dogs if they happen to be in the area (what else is the dog supposed to do? You run up to someone with a dog and start screaming at him and grabbing him and see what the dog does. They won't allow you to remove or contain them either, they just shoot), destroy my house in their efforts to 'save me'. HA, what a joke.

Bottom line, I appreciate what you are saying, but the facts are that we cannot apply a blanket response to government assistance, because there are just too many people who do not fall under the 'too lazy and egotistical to get a job'., despite what whiny, rich people want you to believe. And, to address your idea of assisted relocation, why should I end my entire life in one area to move to a place where I have no fallback position, do not know anyone, and still fall into the statistic of 'too old/under skilled/over skilled/too much of a flight risk' to even be considered as a viable candidate for anything? You know, one thing I wish some people would do is admit 'The American Dream' is just empty propaganda. Because too many people, myself included, are proof that it is nothing more than that.

/BTW, thanks for debating this stuff with me. It is rare that you get real discussion and debate on the net anymore. For the most part, it just becomes an insult-fest full of people who prefer to sound like teenage d**ks rather than actually discuss anything.
 
2014-02-12 07:40:12 PM

tlars699: Are you sure you're getting a good tax rep for yourself?


Single male in suburban CA in apartment underpaid (but there's stock, and I'll get a nice bonus even if we explode.  Seriously, I was getting offered a near-six-figure signing bonus at one place and that only goes UP if we get acquired).  Getting a few hundred off because I moved across country.

There's not a whole lot you can do when you're single in an apartment.

NIMBY's + tech boom => high rents.  High rents => High incomes + roommates + Higher prices (which in turn lead to a vicious cycle of higher incomes => higher rents => higher incomes, until everyone NOT in the tech industry gets priced out, the NIMBY's burn in hell while they build high-rises, or the techies split their $5K/month apartment and laugh while pocketing an extra $30K every year).  High Incomes => High taxes.

Much as I biatch, if I'm NOT paying taxes, we have a problem.  Because I'm in the 92nd percentile of single households (Note: This does not account for COL.  If 92% of the population lived worse than I do, we'd have riots.  Lots of riots).  Sure, I'd like to pay less (~30% plus another 8% in payroll plus assorted other stuff), but if I'm at 5-10%*, we have issues or MUCH smaller safety nets.

*Like I was for the last few years.  Seriously, I got PAID on $20K of income.  Even with state taxes, I think I only paid like $400.  Making Work pay credit and Form 8863 for the win.
 
2014-02-12 07:44:58 PM

tlars699: Nidiot: Oh ffs, wah wah wah, it's costing taxpayers money therefore I have less money, so therefore the poors are getting my money, my money damn it, mine, I want it, wah wah wah.

The money you pay in taxes isn't going to be given back to you once the government has it, the only issue is about where it goes once the government has it, so get over it. Has anyone even worked out what a minuscule amount it would be if the money currently going to pay the unemployed were to be "given back"?

??? What are you on about? Aside from thunDERPipes and other politicians, who has said anything about taxes in this thread?

We should all be taxed a bit more, and have ACTUAL representation in our governing bodies.


There is plenty of whining in the thread that people are being paid to supposedly sit around and be lazy, if they are being paid by the government, then that is from your taxes, and I can vaguely see why there is the resentment, even though I don't agree with it. If people just like to biatch about people who are being paid to sit around and be lazy per se, I don't really see why they care. Also, there are plenty of better targets than the unemployed for that.

Not to mention  Clemkadidlefark: No one has ever explained why you .. yes you .. are entitled to other people's money ..  but he has been suitably addressed.
 
2014-02-12 08:00:24 PM

meyerkev: tlars699: Are you sure you're getting a good tax rep for yourself?

Single male in suburban CA in apartment underpaid (but there's stock, and I'll get a nice bonus even if we explode.  Seriously, I was getting offered a near-six-figure signing bonus at one place and that only goes UP if we get acquired).  Getting a few hundred off because I moved across country.

There's not a whole lot you can do when you're single in an apartment.

NIMBY's + tech boom => high rents.  High rents => High incomes + roommates + Higher prices (which in turn lead to a vicious cycle of higher incomes => higher rents => higher incomes, until everyone NOT in the tech industry gets priced out, the NIMBY's burn in hell while they build high-rises, or the techies split their $5K/month apartment and laugh while pocketing an extra $30K every year).  High Incomes => High taxes.

Much as I biatch, if I'm NOT paying taxes, we have a problem.  Because I'm in the 92nd percentile of single households (Note: This does not account for COL.  If 92% of the population lived worse than I do, we'd have riots.  Lots of riots).  Sure, I'd like to pay less (~30% plus another 8% in payroll plus assorted other stuff), but if I'm at 5-10%*, we have issues or MUCH smaller safety nets.

*Like I was for the last few years.  Seriously, I got PAID on $20K of income.  Even with state taxes, I think I only paid like $400.  Making Work pay credit and Form 8863 for the win.


True, and true- All of this is ringing true... Damn. Still sucks that your effective tax rate is higher than the other 1%.

You would think that cost of living would be associated with your taxes, somehow. But then again you're in CA, where everything is more expensive. :\
Ah well. Good luck to you.
 
2014-02-12 08:06:05 PM

Nidiot: tlars699: Nidiot: Oh ffs, wah wah wah, it's costing taxpayers money therefore I have less money, so therefore the poors are getting my money, my money damn it, mine, I want it, wah wah wah.

The money you pay in taxes isn't going to be given back to you once the government has it, the only issue is about where it goes once the government has it, so get over it. Has anyone even worked out what a minuscule amount it would be if the money currently going to pay the unemployed were to be "given back"?

??? What are you on about? Aside from thunDERPipes and other politicians, who has said anything about taxes in this thread?

We should all be taxed a bit more, and have ACTUAL representation in our governing bodies.

There is plenty of whining in the thread that people are being paid to supposedly sit around and be lazy, if they are being paid by the government, then that is from your taxes, and I can vaguely see why there is the resentment, even though I don't agree with it. If people just like to biatch about people who are being paid to sit around and be lazy per se, I don't really see why they care. Also, there are plenty of better targets than the unemployed for that.

Not to mention  Clemkadidlefark: No one has ever explained why you .. yes you .. are entitled to other people's money ..  but he has been suitably addressed.


Oh- okay. I get it.
LOL at the people who think that this benefit doesn't apply to them in the least. Hey, Buddy! Yeah, YOU! Guess what?!? These social safety nets are there for EVERYBODY to use, Just In Case.

Just like your roads, and your fire dept.'s, policey occifers, etc. EVERYONE needs this around, as insurance that nobody Has to go hungry or not get medical care, etc.

Just as payattention said: Bad Luck can string you out to dry, and it can happen to anybody.


That being said, I don't agree with the idea of " Well, I'm not going to apply to THAT job! It's beneath me!!" Um, no. You want help? Fine, but you gotta take what you can get. Everyone has to do it that way, no exceptions.
 
2014-02-12 09:00:39 PM

tlars699: True, and true- All of this is ringing true... Damn. Still sucks that your effective tax rate is higher than the other 1%.

You would think that cost of living would be associated with your taxes, somehow. But then again you're in CA, where everything is more expensive. :\
Ah well. Good luck to you.


Yeah, and there's stock.  Which is ALL capital gains (If it works).  And that only gets taxed at a marginal rate of 38% in CA (And uh, if you're getting capital gains income on an acquisition, you ONLY care about that $1 Million marginal rate.  No real point otherwise).

And like every other first-world country (Belgium's at 0%), we tax capital gains rates LOWER than regular income because trickle-down sort of, kind of, works.  Rich dudes want to get richer.  It's all about how they do it.  Creating risky, potentially globe-spanning corporations that promote American dominance across several fast-growing industries, providing cool new toys*, and employing thousands of people who can then be taxed is not the worst way.  In fact, it's a pretty good way.  And because of the inherent risk, you don't want to tax it like you tax income.  Hell, even FDR wasn't THAT stupid (He taxed investment like we tax income, and even then, you always have to count the loopholes).

The advantage of Henry Ford is not paying $5/day.  It's providing cheap transportation,  which then let you do all sorts of interesting other things (Among other things, replacing horses with tractors, which drives farming productivity up and food prices down), and created entire new industries which raised incomes.

The Youtube guys are RICH, but they gave you Youtube.  Steve Jobs was rich, but I'd run out of fingers counting the cool things that came from Jobs (and Apple basically collapsed without him), and the cool things that were developed on the Mac are legion (Among other things, OSX + 'nix VM is basically de riguer among tech companies, so Steve gets .01% of all the credit for everything coming out of the Valley).  Heck, even Larry Ellison gave us Oracle, which was basically *THE* database for a while, which let people do big data.  VC's are assholes, but if some guy can take $341 Million in funding and convert it into a $5 Billion company, and without the VC's that company wouldn't exist, they're necessary assholes.

It's all about the value-add.  At some point, somebody's going to get crazy, stupid rich off of 3d-printed clothing.  And it will be awesome because all of my clothing will finally fit.  That's the trickle-down.  They become a multi-multi-billionaire, and I get cheap bespoke clothing.  And maybe I work for them and get a percent or two.

/I admire the elegance of Canada's system.  $1 of capital gains counts as 50c of regular income.
//Though seriously, a company used to be Founders + Money + Engineers + Factory workers + hangers-on, with most workers being factory workers.  There were some exceptions, but if you were producing a shipped product, that was your model.  Today, it's Founders + Money + Engineers + hangers-on.  And everyone in that pile is getting really rich (albeit to different degrees), and factory workers got screwed, and America has a LOT of factory workers (who are slowly converting to hangers-on or engineers, but).  But at least they're getting screwed by internet companies based out of America, employing lots of highly-paid American Engineers and designers.  Could you imagine a world where that wasn't the case?
 
2014-02-12 09:03:57 PM

the money is in the banana stand: Cerebral Ballsy: That's all it is.. Figure out what you want, and how much you're willing to give up to get it.

A lot of what you said is true, however when you have a family to provide for - that all changes. You are going to want to put them in a good school and not live in the ghetto. You are going to want to make sure they eat healthy. You are going to want to buy them a car probably and put them through college. You are going to have to pay for a wedding assuming they get married. You might have your wife stay home to take care of the kids, thus creating another dependent. You are going to want to have a reliable and safe vehicle for your family. You are going to want to have nice toys etc. It gets expensive real fast. When it is just you, sure life is really easy and if that is forever satisfying to you - great, but some of us want or have families.


So you have a family.  And you want your wife to stay home.  Those are choices you made, and so you work more to support those choices.   I don't live in the ghetto, by the way, I live in a small apartment near downtown in a wealthy neighborhood.

I'm female.. if I were to fit into that stereotypical family arrangement, I'd be the one staying at home.  That's my personal nightmare.
 
kth
2014-02-12 09:39:59 PM

tlars699: madgonad: tlars699: Thunderpipes:
Yay! Jobs! Now, question, these fictional acquaintances of yours, did they find a job so fast in pay comparable or better than their old job or did they get a job so low in pay that it won't even cover basic needs?

Bet it pays better than unemployment. Bet it keeps them active. Bet it doesn't cost taxpayers as much. Bet it makes them better people.

Unemployment pays 2/3 of your previous wages. At 20$/hour, that's a little over 13$/hour.
Minimum wage pays what, 8$/hour?

Keeps them active? How? By going onto a computer and putting in job applications online all day? Sounds like the opposite of active.

And how in the world would it make them better people? By learning to live with less, by starving, by having to give up on the American Dream?
How do you know that will work in that way? Is it because you have so few brain cells?

No it doesn't. You have no idea what you are talking about. I spent 4 months on unemployment and it paid $250/wk minus taxes. That is the maximum that anyone could be paid. The position I got downsized out of paid $48k, so unemployment paid me a bit over 1/4 of my working salary. Maybe it is 2/3 for people already making bupkis, but the discussion here was about skilled people that can perform much higher paying jobs that need time to find another one.

Do you live in WI?
Maybe my knowledge doesn't apply to you. OR MAYBE it is up to 2/3 of what you were previously making OR 250$, whichever is lower.
I thought the discussion was about how good or bad it will be for the people who have their unemployment benefits cut, regardless of position, but related to how long they are on unemployment.

Also, if you only are making 250/wk on unemployment, methinks you can get better pay than that if you just let your ego deflate a little bit.


I think it must depend on state, I got the max, which was more than $250, but less than 40% of my prior salary. I started looking before I was actually off the payroll, because I knew what was coming given my experience running a business of my own.

Also, if I made less than some amount the balance to that amount was made up, which allowed me to feel more comfortable about taking a lower paying job. Fortunately, it was for a seasonal position for which I was way overqualified, and which had a possibility of becoming permanent for one or two of us. I went in every damn day, was positive, helpful and awesome. A couple of weeks later, I was wooed away by another department for a permanent job (traded for a six-pack of boulevard beer and a Timothy Geithner rookie card). If there's a company that is up your alley in your area, anything to get in the door and then move to your level.

I was lucky in that I had a second income (i got laid off ten days after moving in with my now-husband). More than unemployment going away, I was running out of COBRA insurance and was going to have to get married earlier than planned because his insurance didn't cover domestic partners.
 
2014-02-12 10:04:12 PM
We die.
 
2014-02-12 10:31:11 PM

new_york_monty: fat_free: new_york_monty: meyerkev: fat_free: 49K for an IT Manager???

Depends where you are.

$49K in a blue state?  What are you, stupid?  Frigging janitors make more than you, because wages are so high because of the damn rent taking it all.
$49K in a red state?  Damn, that's like a house and a yard + 2 kids + dog before we add in the wife's matching salary.  What are you doing right?

/Overgeneralization (It's more Coastal cities vs. Everyone else), but.

Not to mention it was a decade ago.

If you take a job as an IT Manager for less than 25 bucks an hour, you are either a bad hire who can't find anything else or a tard. Or both.

Not my field, so I have no real idea about that. Maybe it's true where you are. But like the guy above me said, money spends a lot different in the country, and pay scales tend to be commensurate. Frankly, you come across as someone who's never traveled toward the middle of the country, but still thinks he knows what life is like there.


Not my farking prob if u wanna stay in BumblefarkIntheDuck Missourah and make min wage, come to Texas and make ya some money, stupid!
 
2014-02-12 11:11:09 PM

Smeggy Smurf: If you don't have the government enabling you to sit on the couch you'll do what your grandparents did and move to where the work is.  I hear the Dakotas and Texas are hiring.


My grandparents were born in, grew up in, and worked nearly their entire lives in a country where they didn't have to compete against minorities, women, gays, or even Catholics. So excuse me if I don't feel all that impressed by their legendary work ethic. If you eliminated more than half the potential workforce out there by blatantly discriminating against them, I'm sure I'd be getting paid more too.
 
2014-02-12 11:32:25 PM

The Dog Ate My Homework: My grandparents were born in, grew up in, and worked nearly their entire lives in a country where they didn't have to compete against minorities, women, gays, or even Catholics


Russia? China? Iran?
 
2014-02-12 11:35:37 PM
by dipping into their trust funds?
 
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