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(Townhall)   Five virtues that liberals take to the extreme   (townhall.com) divider line 119
    More: Amusing, liberals, Occupy protests  
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1855 clicks; posted to Politics » on 11 Feb 2014 at 8:26 AM (41 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-02-11 08:02:26 AM  
1) Destroying the very fabric of America
2) Destroying the very fabric of America
3) Destroying the very fabric of America
4) Destroying the very fabric of America
5) Trolling
 
2014-02-11 08:04:12 AM  
Caring about their fellow man?
 
2014-02-11 08:10:33 AM  
1) Tolerance
2) Compassion
3) Being nicer
4) Self esteem
5) Diversity

Yeah, these are destroying EVERYTHING...
 
2014-02-11 08:11:37 AM  
5 things that conservatives appear to consider virtues

Greed
Selfishness
religious intolerance
self pity
ignorance
 
2014-02-11 08:18:33 AM  

somedude210: Caring about their fellow man?


Pretty much, yeah.

The older I get, the more I realize that, to be a capital-C Conservative in 2014, you need to be some combination of mean, angry, ignorant, and scared. And that's got to be a horrible way to live every day. It really makes me feel sorry for them, in a way. Which, I guess, is a very liberal thing to say.
 
2014-02-11 08:23:06 AM  
Being nice? Whatever other "virtues" they may have, "nice" isn't one I'd choose.

J 🐟
 
2014-02-11 08:26:15 AM  
6) Rocking a mic like a vandal.
 
2014-02-11 08:28:39 AM  

Gonz: The older I get, the more I realize that, to be a capital-C Conservative in 2014, you need to be some combination of mean, angry, ignorant, and scared. And that's got to be a horrible way to live every day. It really makes me feel sorry for them, in a way. Which, I guess, is a very liberal thing to say.


As much as my father's turn to the right since retiring has been gut-wrentching, he hasn't gotten to be a capital-C Conservative. He actually admitted at my birthday dinner the other week that he was "impressed at how well Warren is doing in the Senate". It was a birthday miracle.

He still despises Markey but I can't really fault him for that. Markey is very much a liberal Kerry in more than just being a cure for insomnia.
 
2014-02-11 08:28:42 AM  
Written by a man who appears to have never taken self-moderation to the extreme by the looks of things.
 
2014-02-11 08:29:55 AM  
X things that.... Headline?
Townhall link?

I'm going to assume that sweaty fat guy sharted out another blog post.
 
2014-02-11 08:30:13 AM  
I agree with number 4 wholeheartedly.

The others not so much.
 
2014-02-11 08:34:35 AM  
Compassion and being nice are taken to the extreme by liberals?

It would take a truly heinous person to point out someone else is being too compassionate.
 
2014-02-11 08:35:38 AM  
1) The way they eat those crackers.
2) They're near.
3) Well?! Just  look at them! You know they're up to no good!
4) Is it past 6:30? I need to go to bed.
5) I soiled myself again.
 
2014-02-11 08:37:00 AM  
Is this another one of those moronic "lists" written by that overweight lying shiatstain John Hawkins?

*hovers mouse*

YUP.
 
2014-02-11 08:37:03 AM  
Yes, the Bible does say, "Judge not, that ye be not judged." However, it doesn't say there's no difference between the Bible and the Koran,....
It doesn't say that there is a difference either. I think if you look through the Bible, you won't see a single reference to the Koran. There's a reason...the bible kinda predates the Koran by a millenia or so. But, if you look through a Koran and the Old Testament, you're going to see references to a lot of the same characters. And, the Koran also has lots of moral guidance that is in alignment with the moral guidance of the bible. There's also some stuff in there that probably shouldn't be taken literally, and some stuff that seems patently absurd. But the Bible has the same issues too.

America is packed with angry, spiteful, nasty people who never give a dime to charity or personally help a soul; yet they consider themselves to be deeply compassionate for supporting harmful government programs with pleasant-sounding names
What's the "harmful government program with the pleasant-sounding name"?

If all you bring to the table is "nice," you don't have much to offer.
Sounds like you're one of those guys that when someone asks you to describe an unattractive person, you'll say, "Yeah, they're nice".

Tell that to Afghanistan or Iraq. Both nations are so diverse they want to murder each other.
I'd actually argue that Aghanistan and Iraq are definitely NOT diverse. They have just a few small sects of the population. They end up being HIGHLY divided as a result. Here in America we have people from all colors, classes, creeds. We are FAR more diverse than either of those two nations.
 
2014-02-11 08:37:39 AM  
Ah, it's pajama guy.
 
2014-02-11 08:39:06 AM  

MayoSlather: Compassion and being nice are taken to the extreme by liberals?

It would take a truly heinous person to point out someone else is being too compassionate.


Conservatives are very stringent in their religion:

24.media.tumblr.com
 
2014-02-11 08:41:29 AM  

kidgenius: Yes, the Bible does say, "Judge not, that ye be not judged." However, it doesn't say there's no difference between the Bible and the Koran,....
It doesn't say that there is a difference either. I think if you look through the Bible, you won't see a single reference to the Koran. There's a reason...the bible kinda predates the Koran by a millenia or so. But, if you look through a Koran and the Old Testament, you're going to see references to a lot of the same characters. And, the Koran also has lots of moral guidance that is in alignment with the moral guidance of the bible. There's also some stuff in there that probably shouldn't be taken literally, and some stuff that seems patently absurd. But the Bible has the same issues too.

America is packed with angry, spiteful, nasty people who never give a dime to charity or personally help a soul; yet they consider themselves to be deeply compassionate for supporting harmful government programs with pleasant-sounding names
What's the "harmful government program with the pleasant-sounding name"?

If all you bring to the table is "nice," you don't have much to offer.
Sounds like you're one of those guys that when someone asks you to describe an unattractive person, you'll say, "Yeah, they're nice".

Tell that to Afghanistan or Iraq. Both nations are so diverse they want to murder each other.
I'd actually argue that Aghanistan and Iraq are definitely NOT diverse. They have just a few small sects of the population. They end up being HIGHLY divided as a result. Here in America we have people from all colors, classes, creeds. We are FAR more diverse than either of those two nations.


You're going to need more than words to argue with the estimable wit and wisdom of John Hawkins, my friend.
 
2014-02-11 08:41:33 AM  
What a sad little article. Those are virtues that liberals may carry to excess, but conservatives barely indulge in at all. Who after all was it that said "extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice"?Once again, the underlying complaint is that white people are on the verge of ceasing to be the majority in this country. Cry some more.
 
2014-02-11 08:43:38 AM  
Holy crap, Shirley Temple died yesterday?  May she rest in peace.
 
2014-02-11 08:44:31 AM  
Townhall links...
static2.wikia.nocookie.net
 
2014-02-11 08:45:13 AM  
 I would remind you that extremism in the defense of * is no vice!
 
MFK
2014-02-11 08:45:21 AM  
lemme guess... this guy?
wonkette.com
 
2014-02-11 08:45:22 AM  

clambam: Once again, the underlying complaint is that white people are on the verge of ceasing to be the majority in this country. Cry some more.


They left out virtue 6, the hope for the extermination of a whole race of people.
 
2014-02-11 08:45:56 AM  
4 nouns conservatives can't define, and the phrase "being nice"
 
2014-02-11 08:48:31 AM  
images.sodahead.com
 
2014-02-11 08:49:20 AM  
None of the things on that list make rich people richer or poor people poorer, so obviously they are a problem.
 
2014-02-11 08:52:14 AM  

gnosis301: Ah, it's pajama guy.


Our fartblogging friend has already farted out something dumber than his "misquote" of Scott Walker? Impressive(ly pathetic)
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2014-02-11 08:52:47 AM  

1derful: clambam: Once again, the underlying complaint is that white people are on the verge of ceasing to be the majority in this country. Cry some more.

They left out virtue 6, the hope for the extermination of a whole race of people.


I have met a lot of people who literally think we should wipe out the "Arabs" with nuclear weapons.  It's not an uncommon sentiment.
 
2014-02-11 08:58:34 AM  
A website with an instant "Anti-Amnesty" pop-up?  No thanks.

vpb: I have met a lot of people who literally think we should wipe out the "Arabs" with nuclear weapons.  It's not an uncommon sentiment among Arabs.


FTFY.
 
2014-02-11 08:59:00 AM  

hubiestubert: 1) Tolerance
2) Compassion
3) Being nicer
4) Self esteem
5) Diversity

Yeah, these are destroying EVERYTHING...


Well, to some extent American liberals doing those things (trying to be helpful, fair and inclusive) has helped create create the modern American conservative movement.

/Every time I see a Conservative demanding that religion be treated as science in schools, all I can think is "Well, there's the "multculturalism run rampant we were warned about!"
 
2014-02-11 08:59:17 AM  

MFK: lemme guess... this guy?
[wonkette.com image 527x203]


yep.
 
2014-02-11 08:59:43 AM  

1derful: clambam: Once again, the underlying complaint is that white people are on the verge of ceasing to be the majority in this country. Cry some more.

They left out virtue 6, the hope for the extermination of a whole race of people.


Really?  This is what you're going with?  "Liberals want to kill all white people?"
 
2014-02-11 09:02:29 AM  
Lemme guess; TFA is one big strawman, right?

/did not RTFA
 
2014-02-11 09:02:38 AM  
Be sure to return next week for  5 Virtues That Conservatives Drag Through The Sewage
 
2014-02-11 09:03:53 AM  

HeartBurnKid: 1derful: clambam: Once again, the underlying complaint is that white people are on the verge of ceasing to be the majority in this country. Cry some more.

They left out virtue 6, the hope for the extermination of a whole race of people.

Really?  This is what you're going with?  "Liberals want to kill all white people?"


Sure he is.  I'm a White guy doing my part by marrying an Asian women and having FOUR MIXED RACE BABIES!  Wha Ha Ha! The extermination by interbreeding has begun!

Someone else post the Wonka pic, please
 
2014-02-11 09:04:39 AM  

HeartBurnKid: 1derful: clambam: Once again, the underlying complaint is that white people are on the verge of ceasing to be the majority in this country. Cry some more.

They left out virtue 6, the hope for the extermination of a whole race of people.

Really?  This is what you're going with?  "Liberals want to kill all white people?"


You'll be laughing out the other side of your face when The M00ch's "Kill Whitey" tape gets released.  It'll happen Any Day Now, I swear it!
 
2014-02-11 09:05:38 AM  

vpb: 1derful: clambam: Once again, the underlying complaint is that white people are on the verge of ceasing to be the majority in this country. Cry some more.

They left out virtue 6, the hope for the extermination of a whole race of people.

I have met a lot of people who literally think we should wipe out the "Arabs" with nuclear weapons.  It's not an uncommon sentiment.


Let me guess, they say that it's due to terrorism? Because nothing else quite tells me that someone really hates terrorism than when they advocate blowing up innocent civilians in their target country.
 
2014-02-11 09:06:23 AM  
Diversity is a strength? Tell that to Afghanistan or Iraq.

Holy crap, The US is about a million times more diverse. Dumbass doesn't realize that the only "diversity" in places like Iraq and Afghanistan is the specific flavor of the same farking religion that they ALL follow. It would be like if the US was only Protestants and Methodists, or something.
 
2014-02-11 09:11:45 AM  
Wow. Life in the echo chamber, where narrative replaced reality a long time ago.
 
2014-02-11 09:13:36 AM  
Five Pastries I Haven't Yet Ingested Rectally by John Hawkins
 
2014-02-11 09:14:31 AM  

Mikey1969: Diversity is a strength? Tell that to Afghanistan or Iraq.

Holy crap, The US is about a million times more diverse. Dumbass doesn't realize that the only "diversity" in places like Iraq and Afghanistan is the specific flavor of the same farking religion that they ALL follow. It would be like if the US was only Protestants and Methodists, or something.


That's the point. If things are so terrible over there in Iraq. with two major ethnic groups, imagine how horrible they must be here, with dozens if not hundreds of them! Solution: get rid of all nonconforming ethnic groups. Or at least make sure they know their place.
 
2014-02-11 09:14:49 AM  

Dinki: 5 things that conservatives appear to consider virtues

Greed
Selfishness
religious intolerance
self pity
ignorance


Actually it turns out that people with strong right wing identification are actually less fair and compassionate. They score more highly on measures of loyalty and sanctity.

Of course these latter two are made up values because you can be loyal to anything but, you know, balance.
 
2014-02-11 09:18:41 AM  
Conservative Jesus says that being nice is for f#gs and p#ssies.
 
2014-02-11 09:20:40 AM  
This really comes off as a senile old fart ranting about how everything is so terrible and kids these days are a bunch of lazy assholes who troll righteous conservative websites and want jobs and it's all because we outlawed segregation.
 
2014-02-11 09:22:46 AM  

MFK: lemme guess... this guy?
[wonkette.com image 527x203]


This time, I'm sure you're right!

/no clicky
 
2014-02-11 09:25:44 AM  
5 THINGS YOU NEED TO KNOW ABOUT DERP PLEASE CLIK LISTICLE NUZ

/DIAF
 
2014-02-11 09:28:55 AM  

Mikey1969: Diversity is a strength? Tell that to Afghanistan or Iraq.

Holy crap, The US is about a million times more diverse. Dumbass doesn't realize that the only "diversity" in places like Iraq and Afghanistan is the specific flavor of the same farking religion that they ALL follow. It would be like if the US was only Protestants and Methodists, or something.


The problem is that conservatives truly believe there really ARE only two factions in the US: "Us" and "Them".  Thus you get the bizarre assertions that feminists want to implement Sharia law, or Richard Dawkins is sympathetic to Islam, or that poor people want government-subsidized health insurance to cover their gayness.  They can't comprehend the current diversity of America because they believe that everyone who is "Not Us" falls into a single homogeneous mass with the same beliefs and goals.  And likewise why they regularly have their "conservative purity litmus tests" to ensure their side is homogeneous as well.
 
2014-02-11 09:31:34 AM  

Fast Moon: Mikey1969: Diversity is a strength? Tell that to Afghanistan or Iraq.

Holy crap, The US is about a million times more diverse. Dumbass doesn't realize that the only "diversity" in places like Iraq and Afghanistan is the specific flavor of the same farking religion that they ALL follow. It would be like if the US was only Protestants and Methodists, or something.

The problem is that conservatives truly believe there really ARE only two factions in the US: "Us" and "Them".  Thus you get the bizarre assertions that feminists want to implement Sharia law, or Richard Dawkins is sympathetic to Islam, or that poor people want government-subsidized health insurance to cover their gayness.  They can't comprehend the current diversity of America because they believe that everyone who is "Not Us" falls into a single homogeneous mass with the same beliefs and goals.  And likewise why they regularly have their "conservative purity litmus tests" to ensure their side is homogeneous as well.


I once had a Catholic tell me he didn't want to his tax dollars going towards prolapsed anuses
 
2014-02-11 09:34:14 AM  

Mjeck: Fast Moon: Mikey1969: Diversity is a strength? Tell that to Afghanistan or Iraq.

Holy crap, The US is about a million times more diverse. Dumbass doesn't realize that the only "diversity" in places like Iraq and Afghanistan is the specific flavor of the same farking religion that they ALL follow. It would be like if the US was only Protestants and Methodists, or something.

The problem is that conservatives truly believe there really ARE only two factions in the US: "Us" and "Them".  Thus you get the bizarre assertions that feminists want to implement Sharia law, or Richard Dawkins is sympathetic to Islam, or that poor people want government-subsidized health insurance to cover their gayness.  They can't comprehend the current diversity of America because they believe that everyone who is "Not Us" falls into a single homogeneous mass with the same beliefs and goals.  And likewise why they regularly have their "conservative purity litmus tests" to ensure their side is homogeneous as well.

I once had a Catholic tell me he didn't want to his tax dollars going towards prolapsed anuses


We will just knock it off the 'not paying taxes' tab his church has run up.
 
2014-02-11 09:36:55 AM  

goorange: fark Obama

Garbage president, where the fark is my god damn dole


willrabbe.com
 
2014-02-11 09:37:06 AM  
I was told there would be anal sex.
 
2014-02-11 09:37:35 AM  
Stupid libs and their virtues.
 
2014-02-11 09:37:56 AM  

kidgenius: What's the "harmful government program with the pleasant-sounding name"?


Social Security, Medicare, Medicade, Food Stamps, Unemployment Insurance, the EPA, the ACA, and basically anything not connected with the military. Because helping the needy and protecting the environment don't give you as good a hard-on as blowing stuff up.
 
2014-02-11 09:38:34 AM  

Gonz: somedude210: Caring about their fellow man?

Pretty much, yeah.

The older I get, the more I realize that, to be a capital-C Conservative in 2014, you need to be some combination of mean, angry, ignorant, and scared. And that's got to be a horrible way to live every day. It really makes me feel sorry for them, in a way. Which, I guess, is a very liberal thing to say.


Mostly scared.  Questioning anything scares the piss out of them.  Not to mention reality.  Reality is the most frightening thing of all.
 
2014-02-11 09:41:34 AM  

MFK: lemme guess... this guy?
[wonkette.com image 527x203]


Are you posting that in every thread?
 
2014-02-11 09:41:50 AM  

hubiestubert: 1) Tolerance
2) Compassion
3) Being nicer
4) Self esteem
5) Diversity

Yeah, these are destroying EVERYTHING...


Really? That's the list? How are any of those things even remotely bad to exhibit?
 
2014-02-11 09:42:08 AM  

Marcus Aurelius: Gonz: somedude210: Caring about their fellow man?

Pretty much, yeah.

The older I get, the more I realize that, to be a capital-C Conservative in 2014, you need to be some combination of mean, angry, ignorant, and scared. And that's got to be a horrible way to live every day. It really makes me feel sorry for them, in a way. Which, I guess, is a very liberal thing to say.

Mostly scared.  Questioning anything scares the piss out of them.  Not to mention reality.  Reality is the most frightening thing of all.


One of the single best predictors of right wing authoritarian views is how someone scores on something called The Dangerous World test. They have been shown repeatedly and empirically to just be cowards.
 
2014-02-11 09:47:40 AM  

Mjeck: I once had a Catholic tell me he didn't want to his tax dollars going towards prolapsed anuses


Then maybe his church should stop raping choir boys in the rectory.
 
2014-02-11 09:48:12 AM  

kronicfeld: Five Pastries I Haven't Yet Ingested Rectally by John Hawkins


Well, he IS shiatting out of his mouth/keyboard...
 
2014-02-11 09:49:12 AM  
Oh, goodie, another 'liberal vs conservative' thread.

Look, philosophically, reality is somewhere in between the two extremes.  At the moment, it's closer to the liberal view of the world, but that's not to say that the conservative philosophy is completely without merit.  (Their current implementation of that philosophy is another matter)

Basic virtues That both parties agree are valid and good for society in general: (In varying degrees)
- Generosity
- Hard work
- Responsibility
- Creativity
- Courage
- Freedom
- Integrity
- Honor
- Honesty
- Respect
- Kindness

Now, where things get really messy is when you start rating those virtues. While the GOP values generosity, conservatives don't value generosity as highly as they value freedom or responsibility.  Liberals tend to value kindness and generosity more highly than blunt force 'honesty'.

From what I've seen of the GOP, their top virtues that are valued above all others are Freedom, Honor, and Hard work.  All other virtues are relegated to a 'if we have time for them'.  From what I've seen of the liberals, their top three are:  Kindness, generosity, and Creativity.  Most others appear to be an 'if we have time for them'.

Like I said earlier, however, I think the 'perfect balance' of these virtues is much closer to the liberal view than the conservative one.
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2014-02-11 09:55:54 AM  
Gordon Bennett:

Let me guess, they say that it's due to terrorism? Because nothing else quite tells me that someone really hates terrorism than when they advocate blowing up innocent civilians in their target country.

It can be, but I remember a lot of that from the first gulf war.  They just see them as the enemy.
That's how Bush managed to sell the invasion of Iraq.  It's not that people believe that Hussein was behind 9/11, it's just that he was one of "them" and they "they' were the ones that did it.
 
2014-02-11 09:57:23 AM  
A Cave Geek:

http://people.stern.nyu.edu/jhaidt/

Read this guy for actual data on the topic. He's pretty decent. For a social psychologist.
 
2014-02-11 09:57:59 AM  
Not gonna click ... but how can you overdo a "virtue"?

Or ... Maybe they are saying The Seven Sins aren't all bad either?

Maybe:
"Everything in moderation, including moderation." --Oscar Wilde
 
2014-02-11 10:07:50 AM  
I literally don't understand how its possible to overdo compassion.
 
2014-02-11 10:10:07 AM  

A Cave Geek: Oh, goodie, another 'liberal vs conservative' thread.

Look, philosophically, reality is somewhere in between the two extremes.  At the moment, it's closer to the liberal view of the world, but that's not to say that the conservative philosophy is completely without merit.  (Their current implementation of that philosophy is another matter)

Basic virtues That both parties agree are valid and good for society in general: (In varying degrees)
- Generosity
- Hard work
- Responsibility
- Creativity
- Courage
- Freedom
- Integrity
- Honor
- Honesty
- Respect
- Kindness

Now, where things get really messy is when you start rating those virtues. While the GOP values generosity, conservatives don't value generosity as highly as they value freedom or responsibility.  Liberals tend to value kindness and generosity more highly than blunt force 'honesty'.

From what I've seen of the GOP, their top virtues that are valued above all others are Freedom, Honor, and Hard work.  All other virtues are relegated to a 'if we have time for them'.  From what I've seen of the liberals, their top three are:  Kindness, generosity, and Creativity.  Most others appear to be an 'if we have time for them'.

Like I said earlier, however, I think the 'perfect balance' of these virtues is much closer to the liberal view than the conservative one.


I think the problem starts well before you rate those virtues. I think it starts just by defining what those virtues are. Take freedom. The most common conception of freedom to people on the more conservative end of the spectrum is the ability to do things unimpeded by the government. But that definition means little to me. What good does the government allowing me to do things do if other people are squelching my ability to do those things? I conceive of liberty as autonomy and self-determination, or the ability to do things unimpeded by all other groups.
 
2014-02-11 10:10:53 AM  

Serious Black: hubiestubert: 1) Tolerance
2) Compassion
3) Being nicer
4) Self esteem
5) Diversity

Yeah, these are destroying EVERYTHING...

Really? That's the list? How are any of those things even remotely bad to exhibit?


Now, I can see how in principle, while none of these things are bad, they could be less good in massive doses. For instance, self-esteem is one thing, egotism is taking it too far.

The fact that a suggestion of "tone down the egotism" is coming from a party whose attitude towards America itself is "AMERICA FIRST, FARK THE REST", well that's what you expect from fartbloggers.
 
2014-02-11 10:12:37 AM  
tolerance
compassion
feeding the hungry
clothing the needy
sheltering the homeless
 
2014-02-11 10:13:01 AM  

RminusQ: Serious Black: hubiestubert: 1) Tolerance
2) Compassion
3) Being nicer
4) Self esteem
5) Diversity

Yeah, these are destroying EVERYTHING...

Really? That's the list? How are any of those things even remotely bad to exhibit?

Now, I can see how in principle, while none of these things are bad, they could be less good in massive doses. For instance, self-esteem is one thing, egotism is taking it too far.

The fact that a suggestion of "tone down the egotism" is coming from a party whose attitude towards America itself is "AMERICA FIRST, FARK THE REST", well that's what you expect from fartbloggers.


count me out too please. I really wish this trend in porn would stop.
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2014-02-11 10:13:34 AM  

DamnYankees: I literally don't understand how its possible to overdo compassion.


If you let people take advantage of you then you are weak and it is much more important to be strong than to be compassionate.
 
2014-02-11 10:14:32 AM  
A list of times that I did not fart, by John Hawkins

1.) That one time
2.) jk, never
 
2014-02-11 10:18:17 AM  

Dwight_Yeast: hubiestubert: 1) Tolerance
2) Compassion
3) Being nicer
4) Self esteem
5) Diversity

Yeah, these are destroying EVERYTHING...

Well, to some extent American liberals doing those things (trying to be helpful, fair and inclusive) has helped create create the modern American conservative movement.

/Every time I see a Conservative demanding that religion be treated as science in schools, all I can think is "Well, there's the "multculturalism run rampant we were warned about!"


Therein lies the rub. I DO blame Bill Clinton a bit for the state of affairs within the GOP. When he moved towards the center during his Presidency, the NeoCons then were push-pulled towards more extremist stances, in order to distance themselves from the Democrats. That was the Rove influence, and it became even more prevalent when GW took to the office, but the contrarian element took off, to oppose EVERYTHING in order to be different, and then fill in the blanks for reasoning by handing off the logic behind those moves and statements to a unified team, in media, in academia, in print, on the air, and in that sense, the "modern" Conservative press and media were born.

Before that, it was a lot of disparate voices, some of whom weren't all that far removed from their counterparts across the aisle. Their reasoning might have been slightly different, but they could agree on some issues. Now, the brand is such, and the narrative is so important, the will to create reality through entirely subjective means--and yes, I'm looking at the NeoCons and their thinktanks for this willful misunderstanding of the concept of "subjective reality" that their Ivory Tower academicians for advancing--is choking off the strengths that the Conservatives to nothing but virulently contrarian stances.

"If'n he's a fer it, I'hm ag'in it!" is a cohesive message, but when you need to then turn to a Justification Machine to give yourselves a unified front, as to why something is  terrible, horrible, no good, very bad and the worstestest idea EVAR in the history of ideas and policies, it becomes nothing. It's Vapor Policy. And folks are breathing this stuff in, and they like the taste, because they're "sticking it to the Libs" without every understanding why.

There are things that I disagree with Obama about, and in fact many positions within the Democrats as well, but likewise, there are things that we need to work towards, and simply casting EVERYTHING as the worstest drains any real credence from criticism, because it's not based on opposition to the policy, but rather opposition to the man and the party in general. It simply is just being contrary, and seeking to oppose the man, without thought. There are things that I disagreed with GW certainly, but there are a few things that I think he got right. Not many, but a few--on some of his immigration issues--and you have to look at the policies themselves, not just lump in everything because you have personal distaste. GW had a LOT of issues within his Presidency that I think we could have avoided if the party hadn't shafted McCain's bid, but that personal distaste for the man, and his record, doesn't cloud that he did get some things on immigration right, at least with guest workers in particular. The reckless and feckless certainly tend to cast a deep shadow over the rest of his Presidency, and likewise, his behavior within the office, and the spectacular amount of time he spent away from Washington--that is on a more personal note, as every time he went to the ranch, Fort Hood had to shut down, and that devastated the local economy around the base, and that did a number on my father's business. His choices for advisers and policies I can disagree with, but I'd rather put it into specifics, as opposed to just generalized "He was an asshat!"

While I say, I blame Clinton for this, that is more the causative factor. His move towards the center was I think calculated, but folks chose to make their run from those positions. They made their own damn decisions, and while we can pinpoint the moments that our politics grew more divisive and polarized, it has to be remembered that the Far Right built an infrastructure to create and disseminate these views, and use academicians to provide the justifications. That took a lot of forethought, and belief that they could just manufacture reasoning and it would just be swallowed whole. And if you look at Fox News, you can see that there are a LOT of folks who've bet a ton of their living on exactly that, and one should never underestimate the relative stupidity of humanity for that. The party made its choice, and they reward folks for keeping to the vision, that if a Democrat speaks, it is a race to see HOW wrong they are. It's a sh*tty way to run a party, and it saddens me, because it drove me from the party, and it's driving good folks out of politics in general, because it is so virulent and contrary to thought and consideration. And it just sucks away sincerity and integrity from a great many who want to call themselves Conservatives*.

*I use the phrase "call themselves Conservatives" because what we see are radicals leaping to take the title, without understanding its underpinnings. It's a team to them, and that team is "Family Values" and a lot of buzzwords that have little to do with historical perspective, and folks have worked long and hard to turn perception from those roots, and rebrand their radicalized visions as being "Conservative" and it has worked to a startling degree. But it has nothing to do with thoughtful and careful and considered policy, and damn the folks who put amoral and rabidly anti-intellectual asshats in the hot seats, because they are easily manipulated. That investiture of the party into the hands of radicals, who desperately need to distance themselves from anyone questioning their policy has led us to this pass. Because handing over the party to these radicals has drained a great deal from the party, and the nation.
 
2014-02-11 10:24:13 AM  

RminusQ: Serious Black: hubiestubert: 1) Tolerance
2) Compassion
3) Being nicer
4) Self esteem
5) Diversity

Yeah, these are destroying EVERYTHING...

Really? That's the list? How are any of those things even remotely bad to exhibit?

Now, I can see how in principle, while none of these things are bad, they could be less good in massive doses. For instance, self-esteem is one thing, egotism is taking it too far.

The fact that a suggestion of "tone down the egotism" is coming from a party whose attitude towards America itself is "AMERICA FIRST, FARK THE REST", well that's what you expect from fartbloggers.


Yeah, it's pretty haughty to suggest that more liberal-minded Americans have more excesses in self-esteem than conservative-minded Americans.
 
2014-02-11 10:29:34 AM  
vir·tue
[ vúrchoo ]
  1. goodness: the quality of being morally good or righteous
  2. good quality: a quality that is morally good
  3. admirable quality: a quality that is good or admirable, but not necessarily in terms of morality

How can you take a virtue "to an extreme?" By definition, a virtue is something to which we should aspire, and something that everyone should practice. In theory, taking a virtue "to an extreme" should be cause for praise and emulation. That's the whole friggin' point of a virtue.

Oh, wait - this is the GOP. Their motto is "don't lengthen your own line - shorten your opponent's line."
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2014-02-11 10:29:48 AM  

hubiestubert: While I say, I blame Clinton for this, that is more the causative factor. His move towards the center was I think calculated, but folks chose to make their run from those positions. They made their own damn decisions, and while we can pinpoint the moments that our politics grew more divisive and polarized, it has to be remembered that the Far Right built an infrastructure to create and disseminate these views, and use academicians to provide the justifications. That took a lot of forethought, and belief that they could just manufacture reasoning and it would just be swallowed whole. And if you look at Fox News, you can see that there are a LOT of folks who've bet a ton of their living on exactly that, and one should never underestimate the relative stupidity of humanity for that. The party made its choice, and they reward folks for keeping to the vision, that if a Democrat speaks, it is a race to see HOW wrong they are. It's a sh*tty way to run a party, and it saddens me, because it drove me from the party, and it's driving good folks out of politics in general, because it is so virulent and contrary to thought and consideration. And it just sucks away sincerity and integrity from a great many who want to call themselves Conservatives*.


I think it was an inevitable result of the "Southern strategy".  The Republicans party is composed by several factions, some of which have absolutely nothing in common.  Basically, the Southern Strategy republicans had little strength in the Republican Party in Regan's time because they were newcomers to the party and the senior positions were held by the business/wealthy faction of the Republican party who were the base of the party.  The former Southern Democrats who are the biggest faction have been gaining power over time as the old guard die off.  Not they are fighting the other factions of the party for dominance.

It was always going to happen.
 
2014-02-11 10:34:58 AM  

Serious Black: A Cave Geek: Oh, goodie, another 'liberal vs conservative' thread.

Look, philosophically, reality is somewhere in between the two extremes.  At the moment, it's closer to the liberal view of the world, but that's not to say that the conservative philosophy is completely without merit.  (Their current implementation of that philosophy is another matter)

Basic virtues That both parties agree are valid and good for society in general: (In varying degrees)
- Generosity
- Hard work
- Responsibility
- Creativity
- Courage
- Freedom
- Integrity
- Honor
- Honesty
- Respect
- Kindness

Now, where things get really messy is when you start rating those virtues. While the GOP values generosity, conservatives don't value generosity as highly as they value freedom or responsibility.  Liberals tend to value kindness and generosity more highly than blunt force 'honesty'.

From what I've seen of the GOP, their top virtues that are valued above all others are Freedom, Honor, and Hard work.  All other virtues are relegated to a 'if we have time for them'.  From what I've seen of the liberals, their top three are:  Kindness, generosity, and Creativity.  Most others appear to be an 'if we have time for them'.

Like I said earlier, however, I think the 'perfect balance' of these virtues is much closer to the liberal view than the conservative one.

I think the problem starts well before you rate those virtues. I think it starts just by defining what those virtues are. Take freedom. The most common conception of freedom to people on the more conservative end of the spectrum is the ability to do things unimpeded by the government. But that definition means little to me. What good does the government allowing me to do things do if other people are squelching my ability to do those things? I conceive of liberty as autonomy and self-determination, or the ability to do things unimpeded by all other groups.


A fair enough point.  What good is the 'freedom to work' when there is no work?  What good is the freedom to choose your own vocation if you can only realistically live on a few of them?  I like your definition of liberty.  Yes, that's a very good description. So let's take another look then, just the top 3 for both:
Conservatives
- Freedom:  Ability to do whatever they want with no government ever telling them no, even if that means causing harm to others.
- Hard work:  Doing what you're told, without ever questioning.  Any time you ask for improved conditions/raise/vacation/promotion,/etc, you're a sissy, so stop complaining and get back to work.
- Honor:  From the GOP perspective, I think they mean 'doing all things the same way they've always been done', or rather 'honoring tradition'.  Never question tradition.

Liberals:
- Generosity:  Helping others.  This could be in the form of volunteer hours, donations, or advocating for increased taxes.  Advocacy for those who cannot advocate for themselves, lifting up of the weak, etc. (gawd, that's starting to sound...biblical, isn't it?)
- Kindness:  Liberals tend to like using tact and diplomacy to avoid offending anyone, using violence only as an absolute last resort.  While this often gets them in trouble, they would prefer it if the whole world could be our friend, as opposed to our enemy. Conservatives, by contrast view violence as a perfectly valid 'negotiating' tactic.
- Creativity:  I would define this as valuing solutions over traditions.
 
2014-02-11 10:42:58 AM  

Gonz: somedude210: Caring about their fellow man?

Pretty much, yeah.

The older I get, the more I realize that, to be a capital-C Conservative in 2014, you need to be some combination of mean, angry, ignorant, and scared. And that's got to be a horrible way to live every day. It really makes me feel sorry for them, in a way. Which, I guess, is a very liberal thing to say.


Those are the effect of listening to (watching) right-wing rhetoric. To be a Conservative, you just have to be selfish.
 
2014-02-11 10:43:14 AM  
Blogfat.
 
2014-02-11 10:43:28 AM  

hubiestubert: 1) Tolerance
2) Compassion
3) Being nicer
4) Self esteem
5) Diversity

Yeah, these are destroying EVERYTHING...


Wait - that's the list? Honestly?

Who in the hell thinks it's somehow "bad" to celebrate tolerance, compassion, niceness, self-esteem, and diversity? Who in the hell thinks that those should be somehow "balanced" by a moderate amount of intolerance, ruthlessness, nastiness, self-loathing, and bigotry?

Is this the message of the conservatives? Really? I know there are a lot of question marks here, but that's because I'm frankly surprised and appalled - here I was, thinking, "wow, those qualities are part of what enlighten us", but then this article comes along and implies that, well, we shouldn't be too enlightened, because that would mean you wouldn't be conservatives.

I mean, this schumck, while preaching against tolerance, actually said "Yes, the Bible does say, "Judge not, that ye be not judged." However..." - this asshole thinks he can gainsay Jesus, for Christ's sake. I wonder, when this schmuck goes to church, if he thinks, "Sure, I'm Christian - but, I'm not too Christian, if you know what I mean, because that whole 'turning the other cheek' thing is for suckers." Oh, holy shiat, I underestimated this asshole - according to his own quote, he probably walks into a church that prominently features a man who allowed himself to be nailed to a cross in return for his teachings and thinks, "At best, compassion doesn't mean much and at worst it has become an act of destructive self-congratulation." Yeah, Jesus would clap to celebrate his own bon mot, except for those friggin' nails piercing his friggin' palms, you complete and utter waste of protoplasm.

Who farking read this article and went, "Huh. That John Hawkins fella, he's got the right idea..."? If this is what drives conservative philosophy, well, fark you.
 
2014-02-11 10:46:57 AM  

A Cave Geek: Liberals tend to like using tact and diplomacy to avoid offending anyone, using violence only as an absolute last resort. While this often gets them in trouble, they would prefer it if the whole world could be our friend, as opposed to our enemy. Conservatives, by contrast view violence as a perfectly valid 'negotiating' tactic.


And yet, one of the refrains I hear from the more objectivist Republicans is that the government has a monopoly on state violence, and that this is a bad thing.

I don't know if This Means Something, but the focus on violence as the "prime mover" of economy, diplomacy, etc, is kind of revealing.
 
2014-02-11 10:50:10 AM  

Dr Dreidel: A Cave Geek: Liberals tend to like using tact and diplomacy to avoid offending anyone, using violence only as an absolute last resort. While this often gets them in trouble, they would prefer it if the whole world could be our friend, as opposed to our enemy. Conservatives, by contrast view violence as a perfectly valid 'negotiating' tactic.

And yet, one of the refrains I hear from the more objectivist Republicans is that the government has a monopoly on state violence, and that this is a bad thing.

I don't know if This Means Something, but the focus on violence as the "prime mover" of economy, diplomacy, etc, is kind of revealing.


This may be grossly generalizing, but here we go.

Liberal idiom on violence: measure twice, cut once.
Conservative idiom on violence: shoot first, ask questions later.
 
2014-02-11 10:53:34 AM  

Serious Black: Conservative idiom on violence: shoot first, ask questions later.


Ready, fire, aim.
 
2014-02-11 10:55:46 AM  

A Cave Geek: Oh, goodie, another 'liberal vs conservative' thread.

Look, philosophically, reality is somewhere in between the two extremes.


Yes, that eternal struggle between "right-wing capitalist imperialism" and "right-wing capitalist imperialism with rape wands". The truth must be somewhere between those two.
 
2014-02-11 10:55:58 AM  

Dr Dreidel: A Cave Geek: Liberals tend to like using tact and diplomacy to avoid offending anyone, using violence only as an absolute last resort. While this often gets them in trouble, they would prefer it if the whole world could be our friend, as opposed to our enemy. Conservatives, by contrast view violence as a perfectly valid 'negotiating' tactic.

And yet, one of the refrains I hear from the more objectivist Republicans is that the government has a monopoly on state violence, and that this is a bad thing.

I don't know if This Means Something, but the focus on violence as the "prime mover" of economy, diplomacy, etc, is kind of revealing.


Definitely.  I guess from what I see, and I'd be interested on your take on this too, is that conservatives value those 'hero' types who fight epic battles, and prevail against all odds over those who work 'behind the scenes' to change things in slower, more subtle ways, without 'tearing the whole thing down'.  Liberals tend to favor those who work behind the scenes over the 'guts and glory' hero types.
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2014-02-11 10:59:54 AM  
Except for the Those are really the things that define the redneck mentality.  The lack of them I mean.

That's why I think that this culture war thing isn't going to go away any time soon.  That mentality is simply not compatible with the idea of coexisting with people who aren't like you.

I think that "real Americans" comment that people laughed at Sarah Palin was a perfectly reasonable comment to the Southern/rural conservatives.  I live in the South and grew up here and many people really do believe that the USA was originally composed of people like them for people like them.

Non-whites and liberals are people who slipped in while immigration laws were lax and managed to somehow become technically US citizens, but they aren't real Americans, they just snuck in.

I don't think the tradition of country over party will ever come back.
 
2014-02-11 11:01:48 AM  

vpb: Gordon Bennett:

Let me guess, they say that it's due to terrorism? Because nothing else quite tells me that someone really hates terrorism than when they advocate blowing up innocent civilians in their target country.

It can be, but I remember a lot of that from the first gulf war.  They just see them as the enemy.
That's how Bush managed to sell the invasion of Iraq.  It's not that people believe that Hussein was behind 9/11, it's just that he was one of "them" and they "they' were the ones that did it.


Oh, there was also the "freedom" of "liberating" Kuwait, so the Emir could go back to sitting on his golden throne and propping his feet up on the foreign national he pays ten cents a day to be his foot-stool.
 
2014-02-11 11:07:15 AM  

vpb: Except for the Those are really the things that define the redneck mentality.  The lack of them I mean.

That's why I think that this culture war thing isn't going to go away any time soon.  That mentality is simply not compatible with the idea of coexisting with people who aren't like you.

I think that "real Americans" comment that people laughed at Sarah Palin was a perfectly reasonable comment to the Southern/rural conservatives.  I live in the South and grew up here and many people really do believe that the USA was originally composed of people like them for people like them.

Non-whites and liberals are people who slipped in while immigration laws were lax and managed to somehow become technically US citizens, but they aren't real Americans, they just snuck in.



And the worst of them are so-called "Native Americans" - who let those lazy, brown-assed motherf**kers sneak into OUR country?
 
2014-02-11 11:15:43 AM  

Serious Black: Dr Dreidel: A Cave Geek: Liberals tend to like using tact and diplomacy to avoid offending anyone, using violence only as an absolute last resort. While this often gets them in trouble, they would prefer it if the whole world could be our friend, as opposed to our enemy. Conservatives, by contrast view violence as a perfectly valid 'negotiating' tactic.

And yet, one of the refrains I hear from the more objectivist Republicans is that the government has a monopoly on state violence, and that this is a bad thing.

I don't know if This Means Something, but the focus on violence as the "prime mover" of economy, diplomacy, etc, is kind of revealing.

This may be grossly generalizing, but here we go.

Liberal idiom on violence: measure twice, cut once.
Conservative idiom on violence: shoot first, ask questions later.


Butbutbutbut.... TINSTAAVC!
 
2014-02-11 11:19:22 AM  

A Cave Geek: Look, philosophically, reality is somewhere in between the two extremes.


Or one side could simply be wrong.

"When people thought the earth was flat, they were wrong. When people thought the earth was spherical, they were wrong. But if you think that thinking the earth is spherical is just as wrong as thinking the earth is flat, then your view is wronger than both of them put together." - Isaac Asimov
 
2014-02-11 11:20:29 AM  
You wrote to me once, listing the four chief virtues. Wisdom, justice, fortitude, temperance. As I read the list, I knew I had none of them. But I have other virtues, Father. Ambition. That can be a virtue when it drives us to horde wealth and taken advantage of the downtrodden. Resourcefulness. Courage. Perhaps not in the face of injustice or in standing up for the weak but there are many forms of courage. Devotion, to myself and to the all mighty dollar. But none of my virtues were on your list.

morganrlewis.files.wordpress.com
Am I not merifcul?
 
2014-02-11 11:26:16 AM  

A Cave Geek: Definitely. I guess from what I see, and I'd be interested on your take on this too, is that conservatives value those 'hero' types who fight epic battles, and prevail against all odds over those who work 'behind the scenes' to change things in slower, more subtle ways, without 'tearing the whole thing down'. Liberals tend to favor those who work behind the scenes over the 'guts and glory' hero types.


If you buy into it, the whole RWA-thing supports that hypothesis (I think Jackson Herring is the Farxpert on that, though) - that American Conservatism tends to be more of a demagogic organization (viz. the continued and active fawning over Reagan, whose presidency ended just a short quarter-century ago, and his life a decade ago).

Me, I think it comes from the (again, broad-stroked) levels of education and desire for outside sources. Liberals tend to be higher-educated, and in critical-thinking fields (like philosophy or literature, both of which demand good arguing skills); suggesting that they (we) are more likely to pull apart an argument and try and support/attack it from every angle than to simply accept it because the source is trustworthy.

Confirmation bias and appeals to authority exist independent of politics, though.
 
2014-02-11 11:42:49 AM  

Satanic_Hamster: Mjeck: I once had a Catholic tell me he didn't want to his tax dollars going towards prolapsed anuses

Then maybe his church should stop raping choir boys in the rectory.


Rectory? Damn near killed ory.

/got nothin'
 
2014-02-11 11:46:10 AM  
All this talk about virtues is making me think of Ultima.  Did you know the only Ultima games I've played were the NES Ultima IV, Ultima Underworld I (awesome game), and Ultima Underworld II (never left the castle)?
 
2014-02-11 11:57:16 AM  

jso2897: vpb: Except for the Those are really the things that define the redneck mentality.  The lack of them I mean.

That's why I think that this culture war thing isn't going to go away any time soon.  That mentality is simply not compatible with the idea of coexisting with people who aren't like you.

I think that "real Americans" comment that people laughed at Sarah Palin was a perfectly reasonable comment to the Southern/rural conservatives.  I live in the South and grew up here and many people really do believe that the USA was originally composed of people like them for people like them.

Non-whites and liberals are people who slipped in while immigration laws were lax and managed to somehow become technically US citizens, but they aren't real Americans, they just snuck in.


And the worst of them are so-called "Native Americans" - who let those lazy, brown-assed motherf**kers sneak into OUR country?


After all, *we* came over on the *Mayflower*!

/possibly obscure
 
2014-02-11 11:57:53 AM  
Let me sum up TFA...

*See the opus of Ayn Rand
 
2014-02-11 11:58:52 AM  

gnosis301: All this talk about virtues is making me think of Ultima.  Did you know the only Ultima games I've played were the NES Ultima IV, Ultima Underworld I (awesome game), and Ultima Underworld II (never left the castle)?


You can get the entire series on gog.com for dirt cheap.
 
2014-02-11 12:27:18 PM  

Serious Black: hubiestubert: 1) Tolerance
2) Compassion
3) Being nicer
4) Self esteem
5) Diversity

Yeah, these are destroying EVERYTHING...

Really? That's the list? How are any of those things even remotely bad to exhibit?


Diversity is bad because I automatically wet my pants when I'm around anyone who doesn't look like me.
 
2014-02-11 12:37:21 PM  

MFK: lemme guess... this guy?
[wonkette.com image 527x203]


I should have guessed. A list of what Libruls believe and why they have it wrong is classic Hawkins.

Thanks for saving me the aggravation of a click.

/Hawkins aspires to be a glop of dried toothpaste on Rush Limbaugh's bathroom sink.
 
2014-02-11 12:39:41 PM  
"What is it, 'compassion' or 'being nice to people?'"

*click* *It's both.*

"GODDAMMIT."
 
2014-02-11 12:56:47 PM  

Tyrone Slothrop: gnosis301: All this talk about virtues is making me think of Ultima.  Did you know the only Ultima games I've played were the NES Ultima IV, Ultima Underworld I (awesome game), and Ultima Underworld II (never left the castle)?

You can get the entire series on gog.com for dirt cheap.


I know.  I bought 7 and UW I and II.  Not interested in any of the others at this time, though.
 
2014-02-11 12:58:36 PM  
Wow, the liberal derp in here is thick
 
2014-02-11 01:04:16 PM  

dantheman195: Wow, the liberal derp in here is thick


Looks like this guy sure showed all you liberals in here.
 
2014-02-11 01:04:16 PM  
I read a lot, and that article was the dumbest collection of words I've read in a long time. Then I got to the comments...
 
2014-02-11 01:20:59 PM  
And the only virtue true Americans take to extreme is their love of all American Apple Pie.

joshuatrent.com wonkette.com

You won't find any of them holding with the commie nonsense that Moochelle is trying to ram down their throats such as "as American as steamed vegetables".
 
2014-02-11 01:43:48 PM  
i1.ytimg.com
 
2014-02-11 01:59:52 PM  

Dinki: 5 things that conservatives appear to consider virtues

Greed
Selfishness
religious intolerance
self pity
ignorance


Actually, if you're talking about the derpy garden variety "conservative" of the sort that frequents that site, there is really only one virtue left, and that is fear.
 
2014-02-11 02:43:32 PM  

Dwight_Yeast: hubiestubert: 1) Tolerance
2) Compassion
3) Being nicer
4) Self esteem
5) Diversity

Yeah, these are destroying EVERYTHING...

Well, to some extent American liberals doing those things (trying to be helpful, fair and inclusive) has helped create create the modern American conservative movement.

/Every time I see a Conservative demanding that religion be treated as science in schools, all I can think is "Well, there's the "multculturalism run rampant we were warned about!"


Conservatives have been persecuting and killing people they don't like, denying and even criminalizing science, and abusing the public trust for personal gain while at the same time espousing empty promises about helping the less fortunate for most/all of recorded history.

Modern Conservatives are simply the continuation of not-so-modern Conservatives.
 
2014-02-11 02:45:01 PM  
One virtue that liberals can never be too extreme about: not giving a single fark about whatever Hawkins is currently blubbering about.
 
2014-02-11 02:57:47 PM  

dantheman195: Wow, the liberal derp in here is thick


wow. it's almost like you........are concerned.
 
2014-02-11 03:31:27 PM  

Emposter: Conservatives have been persecuting and killing people they don't like, denying and even criminalizing science, and abusing the public trust for personal gain while at the same time espousing empty promises about helping the less fortunate for most/all of recorded history.


You know all that could easily be applied to liberals as well, right?  Eugenics, communism, prohibition, the Vietnam War, the anti-GMO crowd, etc...

DarwiOdrade: One virtue that liberals can never be too extreme about: not giving a single fark about whatever Hawkins is currently blubbering about.


Yep.
 
2014-02-11 04:27:29 PM  

A Cave Geek: Oh, goodie, another 'liberal vs conservative' thread.

Look, philosophically, reality is somewhere in between the two extremes.  At the moment, it's closer to the liberal view of the world, but that's not to say that the conservative philosophy is completely without merit.  (Their current implementation of that philosophy is another matter)

Basic virtues That both parties agree are valid and good for society in general: (In varying degrees)
- Generosity
- Hard work
- Responsibility
- Creativity
- Courage
- Freedom
- Integrity
- Honor
- Honesty
- Respect
- Kindness

Now, where things get really messy is when you start rating those virtues. While the GOP values generosity, conservatives don't value generosity as highly as they value freedom or responsibility.  Liberals tend to value kindness and generosity more highly than blunt force 'honesty'.

From what I've seen of the GOP, their top virtues that are valued above all others are Freedom, Honor, and Hard work.  All other virtues are relegated to a 'if we have time for them'.  From what I've seen of the liberals, their top three are:  Kindness, generosity, and Creativity.  Most others appear to be an 'if we have time for them'.

Like I said earlier, however, I think the 'perfect balance' of these virtues is much closer to the liberal view than the conservative one.


I would say you missed a couple major liberal values: equality and fairness (although fairness could arguably be interchanged with a few of these I suppose).  Most of what liberals stand for and fight for is equality whether it be for race, gender, sexual orientation, wealth, etc.

You're right in the sense that we have a different set of values, but it also extends to having a different set of definitions for those words (as someone else mentioned) as well as a different set of goals and fundamental beliefs.  Our neural frameworks are just different.

It really boils down to liberals want to change the world to make it what they perceive to be a better place.  Generally this means that everyone is equal, not discriminated against, and gets along (at least in an ideal world).  In the liberal utopia, everyone gets to do their own thing and we all work together to prevent people from harming each other (whether it be physically or emotionally).  Sometimes that means regulations against corporations who want to harm people, sometimes that just means rules against bullies.  They want freedom and liberty in the form of everyone being free as long as they are playing nice with each other.

Conservatives also want to make the world to be what they perceive to be a better place, but in their view, a better place means everyone follows the rules of a true authority (it's important that they perceive the authority to be legitimate though and that can only be someone who's just like them or traditionally the type who has been a leader previously).  They don't want people to be equal, they like hierarchies where people have to earn their right to work their way up the ranks, and unfortunately for some, that simply isn't possible due to their unfortunate luck to not be born into the dominant group whatever it may be.  They want everyone to respect the hierarchy and know their place and to never question it thus creating structure and tradition.  They take comfort in knowing that people aren't doing things they don't agree with, and if they are, the authority has the right to persecute and punish that individual.  Ironically they don't like laws or rules that allow others to make decisions that they don't agree with or that forces them to respect others.  They see this as an infringement of their freedom.  They want freedom and liberty in the form of everyone being free to hurt, discriminate against, persecute, and force their will on those lower in the hierarchy than them.  It's no coincidence that conservatives have tended to belong to traditionally privileged groups (rich, dominant race, straight, male, dominant religion).  They want to maintain their dominance and privilege while ensuring that others cannot have what they have as they like to feel superior.
 
2014-02-11 04:39:41 PM  

dantheman195: Wow, the liberal derp in here is thick


Indeed? Please explain to us how "being nice" is bad.
 
2014-02-11 04:59:17 PM  

FLMountainMan: Emposter: Conservatives have been persecuting and killing people they don't like, denying and even criminalizing science, and abusing the public trust for personal gain while at the same time espousing empty promises about helping the less fortunate for most/all of recorded history.

You know all that could easily be applied to liberals as well, right?  Eugenics, communism, prohibition, the Vietnam War, the anti-GMO crowd, etc...


No, yes, historically bipartisan with no continuity into modern period, wtf are you drunk, fringe loonies and an issue that didn't even exist historically.

Pathetic.  Even your false equivalencies are wrong.
 
2014-02-11 06:09:18 PM  
Right. Because if I want to know how Liberals think, I'm going to go to a right-wing nutjob website.
 
2014-02-11 06:31:25 PM  
Okay, this is one of those situations where the article itself makes some good points while the author's past comments have created some biases that prevent you from seeing his points.  Let me try and reframe it in a slightly less "derpy" way.

1. Tolerance: Yes, we should have tolerance for other people's beliefs.  However, where do you draw the line between tolerance for a belief and tolerance for something that our society judges is profoundly wrong, such as say human sacrifice for a religion?  Or tolerance for the belief that killing other people in the name of your God just because other people don't believe in your God? (Yes, that is a partial shot at Islam, but I will freely acknowledge that Christianity has it's own share of blood on it's hands as well).  The point is that at some point you have to draw a line between toleration and the overall good of a continuing society.

2. Compassion: What happens when the money runs out?  I also disagree with the entire idea that we are a compassionless society.  There are lots of people who give money, goods, or there own personal time to many deserving causes.  I would argue that we are much more compassionate towards helping people in need than people think.  Also, compassion isn't just found in a government program.  What about a private charity organization?  The catholic church is one of the most giving organizations in the world yet does it rely on government handouts?  The goal of a government program should be to 1) help those who are incapable of helping themselves due to a physical or mental handicap (I work with emotionally disturbed kids, so I know a lot about mental handicaps); 2) to help those who need temporary relief due to unfortunate circumstances such as death or unexpected unemployment; 3) to help those who are capable of giving to our society to be able get back to work so they can continue to contribute rather than drain society.  Conservatives support this idea, but we can not afford to let the grasshoppers be grasshoppers in perpetuity.  Eventually, the cost in terms of resources will outpace the available resources and thus, you have societal collapse.  Compassion, yes.  But compassion that is designed to encourage contributing to society, not that rewards being a constant drain on society.  One of the hardest lessons to learn as a special education teacher, or any teacher for that matter, is that no matter how hard you try you can't save every kid.  Doctors understand it: it's called triage.  Nobody likes it, but we have to do it.  This means we need to encourage everyone who is physically and mentally capable of working to work.

3. Being nice: Sometimes you have to stop being nice and start being mean.  If you're too nice, people walk all over you.  If you're willing to demonstrate that you are at least willing to stand up for yourself, then the really mean people out there will basically bully you into doing whatever they want.  The best example is Chamberlain and Hitler.  If Chamberlain showed even a little backbone, it could have averted a whole lot of problems.

4. Self-Esteem: There's a difference in telling a girl that no, you're not fat so please stop starving yourself and telling a 21 year old who can't read, write, or do simple math despite 16 years of year-round services and multiple hospitalizations in mental hospitals and jail terms for armed robbery because he thinks that he's "thug life".  One you put into a program designed to support for the rest of their natural life because everyone realizes that unless they are placed in such a program, they might not do something worse than just rob someone.  The other you help by saying "no, you're not fat and society is wrong to call you fat." (plus a lot of personal therapy).  It's time to stop being overly therapeutic and start being a little realistic with our education system.  If a kid is simply incapable of learning, then we need to adjust their educational program accordingly so they don't get kicked in the teeth when they enter the real world.  Incidentally, I blame NCLB for a majority of those problems.    There's a fine line between helping and being unrealistic to the point where we are creating more problems than we're solving.

5. Diversity: It's okay to be different, but not to the point where it shatters society.  Please, go out and celebrate your differences.  However, we do this now to the point where instead of a melting pot.  When I teach my students about the difference between a solution and mixture in chemistry, I use the analogies of soda and a salad.  Can you pick out the individual ingredients in a salad?  Yes, that's a mixture.  Can you pick out the individual ingredients in a soda?  No, that's a solution.  What makes our society so good is that regardless of what your ethnicity, gender, etc., that we all have some basic common beliefs.  The whole melting pot concept is that our society has taken the best of a lot of different cultures and combined them into a unique American culture that allowed our society to function.  Taken to it's extreme, our society becomes very divided because those common beliefs are no longer so common.  Then our society becomes dysfunctional and eventually collapses along ethnic or whatever lines you pick.  This can be done without becoming unthinking and unfeeling clones that the both sides often accuse each other of attempting to do.
 
2014-02-11 10:36:42 PM  
I have to stop reading PotatoHall. I think I lost another 400 IQ points on that one.
 
2014-02-11 10:56:33 PM  
"Diversity is a strength? Tell that to Afghanistan or Iraq. Both nations are so diverse they want to murder each other.  "

This may be the worst set of three consecutive sentences I've ever read.
 
2014-02-11 11:24:57 PM  
sign up temporarily disabled to prevent gifted liberal trolling
 
2014-02-12 04:53:19 PM  
NOBODY expects the Liberal Inquisition! Our chief weapon is tolerance...tolerance and compassion...compassion and tolerance.... Our two weapons are tolerance and compassion ...and being nice.... Our *three* weapons are tolerance, compassion, and being nice...and an almost fanatical devotion to self-esteem.... Our *four*...no... *Amongst* our weapons.... Amongst our weaponry...are such elements as tolerance, compassion.... I'll come in again.
 
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