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(The Raw Story)   In today's Dispatches from the Right-Wing's Civil War, pastor from the ultra-right wing American Family Association accuses ultra-right wing religious broadcaster Pat Robertson of "Blasphemy" for "mocking" Creationism   (rawstory.com) divider line 124
    More: Strange, American Family Association, Pat Robertson, right-wing, civil wars, image of God, scientific laws, family association, Ken Ham  
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2108 clicks; posted to Politics » on 10 Feb 2014 at 5:00 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



124 Comments   (+0 »)
   
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2014-02-10 03:13:52 PM  
These boneheads are about two steps away from yelling Allah Akbar, and strapping bombs to themselves.
 
2014-02-10 03:21:32 PM  
FTFA:   "If there was a primeval prevalence of these things before the fall of man, then that would leave only God himself responsible for such menace and mayhem. The very notion a God of love and order would work arbitrarily and brutally as suggested in evolution's old earth hypothesis - a way so contrary to his own nature - carries with it an implication [of] blasphemy."

You can see the gears of logic turning, turning.  He comes within a hairs breadth of the truth, but then it runs smack into his faith.  Truth loses.

This is why it's pointless to argue with them.  You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him think.
 
2014-02-10 03:22:11 PM  

vudukungfu: These boneheads are about two steps away from yelling Allah Akbar, and strapping bombs to themselves.


and nothing of value would be lost.

I will admit though that the AFF guy's argument is a new one on me: Well if animals went extinct before Adam sinned that that would just be God being a bastard and not the loving entity we know him to be

-Whereas, apparently, if he smites the living fark out of bunch of unrelated species because Adam decided to nom an apple, well then, THAT would make PERFECT sense and be totally normal.
 
2014-02-10 03:27:56 PM  

unyon: You can see the gears of logic turning, turning. He comes within a hairs breadth of the truth, but then it runs smack into his faith. Truth loses



Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?
 
2014-02-10 03:38:09 PM  
What is God made of?

If he's not made of anything, then he doesn't exist.
If he's made of something, then who made that stuff?

We could go on and on, but let's not.

POOP THREAD!
 
2014-02-10 03:43:40 PM  
When Pat Robertson is the rational side of the argument...
 
2014-02-10 03:44:37 PM  
"Did Adam stoop and his knuckles drag the ground when he walked with God in the garden?" Creech pondered. "Did Eve grunt when God asked her what she had done when she ate from the forbidden tree? If the first couple were just early advanced forms of primate, how responsible for their actions could they possibly be?"


The funny thing about this guy is that he makes me doubt that we all evolved to have higher intelligence than monkeys.
 
2014-02-10 03:44:52 PM  

2wolves: unyon: You can see the gears of logic turning, turning. He comes within a hairs breadth of the truth, but then it runs smack into his faith. Truth loses


Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?


Define evil.

If your dog has a broken leg and you try to set it, he will try to hurt you because you are hurting him and he is incapable of understanding that the pain is for a higher purpose, and  on a longer term scale, what you are doing is a good thing.
 
2014-02-10 03:51:28 PM  

Bareefer Obonghit: "Did Adam stoop and his knuckles drag the ground when he walked with God in the garden?" Creech pondered. "Did Eve grunt when God asked her what she had done when she ate from the forbidden tree? If the first couple were just early advanced forms of primate, how responsible for their actions could they possibly be?"


The funny thing about this guy is that he makes me doubt that we all evolved to have higher intelligence than monkeys.


Are you saying we're condescended from monkeys?  That's not MY culture and heritage!
www.gunaxin.com
 
2014-02-10 03:52:39 PM  

Magorn: Define evil.

If your dog has a broken leg and you try to set it, he will try to hurt you because you are hurting him and he is incapable of understanding that the pain is for a higher purpose, and on a longer term scale, what you are doing is a good thing.


Also: Inaction to prevent malevolence is not malevolence, it is passivity.
 
2014-02-10 03:58:36 PM  
"If there was a primeval prevalence of these things before the fall of man, then that would leave only God himself responsible for such menace and mayhem. The very notion a God of love and order would work arbitrarily and brutally as suggested in evolution's old earth hypothesis - a way so contrary to his own nature - carries with it an implication [of] blasphemy."

Are we talking about the same God that flooded the world, burned up Sodom & Gomorrah, killed the firstborn son of everyone in Egypt, sent a plague that wiped out 70,000 Jews because David screwed up, and sent the angel of death to slaughter 185,000 Assyrians?

There's quite a bit of evidence for God being brutal even after the "fall of man". What makes you think he wasn't brutal before?
 
2014-02-10 04:00:55 PM  
Creationism IS a mockery.
 
2014-02-10 04:03:22 PM  

Bareefer Obonghit: The funny thing about this guy is that he makes me doubt that we all evolved to have higher intelligence than monkeys.


Technically, we didn't evolve "to have" anything. We just evolved, the results of which include the capacity for differential cognitive capabilities than monkeys, apes, etc. But then again, that kind of teleological thinking - that is, thinking in terms of functional purpose or intentionality - is simply endemic in humans' cognition because we are highly social animals and the things we socialize with the most, other humans, are primarily intentional and goal-directed beings. So I can't really fault anyone for conceiving of completely mindless and complex cause-effect relationships in terms of intentionality, as it is simply both more familiar to us and easier to understand. But it is incorrect in this instance, and likely a large part of why so many people have a hard time accepting theories of evolution.
 
2014-02-10 04:08:46 PM  

scottydoesntknow: "If there was a primeval prevalence of these things before the fall of man, then that would leave only God himself responsible for such menace and mayhem. The very notion a God of love and order would work arbitrarily and brutally as suggested in evolution's old earth hypothesis - a way so contrary to his own nature - carries with it an implication [of] blasphemy."

Are we talking about the same God that flooded the world, burned up Sodom & Gomorrah, killed the firstborn son of everyone in Egypt, sent a plague that wiped out 70,000 Jews because David screwed up, and sent the angel of death to slaughter 185,000 Assyrians?

There's quite a bit of evidence for God being brutal even after the "fall of man". What makes you think he wasn't brutal before?


I think he's got an abused wife's understanding of God's Love.  I mean sure god went all homicidal and smitey a bunch of times in the Old Testament, (not least of which when he flooded the whole joint) but that's okay because   we made him do it by being all sinful and stuff.  Really a great guy, a loving creator, if we wouldn't get him so angry and riled up....

Jebus, I pity a man who truly believes in an omnipotent being that thinks that way
 
2014-02-10 04:09:43 PM  

scottydoesntknow: "If there was a primeval prevalence of these things before the fall of man, then that would leave only God himself responsible for such menace and mayhem. The very notion a God of love and order would work arbitrarily and brutally as suggested in evolution's old earth hypothesis - a way so contrary to his own nature - carries with it an implication [of] blasphemy."

Are we talking about the same God that flooded the world, burned up Sodom & Gomorrah, killed the firstborn son of everyone in Egypt, sent a plague that wiped out 70,000 Jews because David screwed up, and sent the angel of death to slaughter 185,000 Assyrians?

There's quite a bit of evidence for God being brutal even after the "fall of man". What makes you think he wasn't brutal before?


Yes, yes they are.

They are also speaking of the one that said if you don't believe he is the savior, the way, and the light, you will burn in hell, because he loves you with the ultimate love.
 
2014-02-10 04:12:06 PM  
The thought of those two going at it makes me laugh.

/dnrtfa

img.fark.net
 
2014-02-10 04:13:58 PM  
Good grief.

vudukungfu: These boneheads are about two steps away from yelling Allah Akbar, and strapping bombs to themselves.


One hopes they take each other out instead of innocent victims.
 
2014-02-10 04:15:20 PM  
Robertson I see as a man who has high derp capacity but pretty much every word I've seen from every "Family" group out there is maximum derp factor 10, all the time.  Maybe that is just a result of sampling error.
 
2014-02-10 04:15:50 PM  

Magorn: Are you saying we're condescended from monkeys?  That's not MY culture and heritage!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G8y9rLj5_20&t=120
 
2014-02-10 04:15:57 PM  

Magorn: Bareefer Obonghit: "Did Adam stoop and his knuckles drag the ground when he walked with God in the garden?" Creech pondered. "Did Eve grunt when God asked her what she had done when she ate from the forbidden tree? If the first couple were just early advanced forms of primate, how responsible for their actions could they possibly be?"


The funny thing about this guy is that he makes me doubt that we all evolved to have higher intelligence than monkeys.

Are you saying we're condescended from monkeys?  That's not MY culture and heritage!
[www.gunaxin.com image 239x211]


Is you or is you ain't my condescenduancies?


Kome: Bareefer Obonghit: The funny thing about this guy is that he makes me doubt that we all evolved to have higher intelligence than monkeys.

Technically, we didn't evolve "to have" anything. We just evolved, the results of which include the capacity for differential cognitive capabilities than monkeys, apes, etc. But then again, that kind of teleological thinking - that is, thinking in terms of functional purpose or intentionality - is simply endemic in humans' cognition because we are highly social animals and the things we socialize with the most, other humans, are primarily intentional and goal-directed beings. So I can't really fault anyone for conceiving of completely mindless and complex cause-effect relationships in terms of intentionality, as it is simply both more familiar to us and easier to understand. But it is incorrect in this instance, and likely a large part of why so many people have a hard time accepting theories of evolution.


I suppose it would have worked better to phrase it, "Evolved the capacity for differential cognitive capabilities than monkeys," but brevity is the soul of writin gud, or somethin'.
 
2014-02-10 04:20:58 PM  
"Did Eve grunt when God asked her what she had done when she ate from the forbidden tree?"

Of course not.  She answered in perfect English with a proper American accent.
 
2014-02-10 04:50:42 PM  
The story of creation about Adam and Eve was a parable, a metaphor.

It's mentioned to acknowledge a time when man was no better than animals- not knowing good or evil...pure instinct. They weren't self aware- they did not comprehend death.

Knowledge was Mans downfall-not the act of disobeying. When he knew that some acts were harmful to the community and some acts beneficial. When he became aware of his own morality, he left paradise. Or realizing that ignorance was truly bliss.
 
2014-02-10 04:58:01 PM  

Lionel Mandrake: "Did Eve grunt when God asked her what she had done when she ate from the forbidden tree?"

Of course not.  She answered in perfect English with a proper American accent.


"proper" is too British-sounding of a word to use here.  Good ol' American accent.
 
2014-02-10 04:58:42 PM  

Kome: thinking in terms of functional purpose or intentionality - is simply endemic in humans' cognition


So you're suggesting most humans mistakenly think the human race intentionally evolved this way?

Kome: Bareefer Obonghit: The funny thing about this guy is that he makes me doubt that we all evolved to have higher intelligence than monkeys.

Technically, we didn't evolve "to have" anything.


Personally, I think he was just ever so slightly careless with wording.  Reading much too far into posts is simply endemic on Fark.com.
 
2014-02-10 05:03:26 PM  
FTFA:

God established all scientific laws, so "good science will always point to Him."

*closes window* Good science doesn't give a sh*t about you and your hopeful preconceived notions.
 
2014-02-10 05:06:40 PM  
Pat Robertson wasn't able to get his yearly predictions from God this year because the weather was bad.
 
2014-02-10 05:11:08 PM  
"On the sixth day, God created my amazing new nutritional vitamin-supplement shake. Fortified with every vitamin Moses needed to carry those two tablets writ by the hand of God itself down the treacherous slopes of Mount Sinai. What would Jesus drink, my brothers and sisters in Christ? Why, he'd drink Pat's Diet Shake, giving him the strength of 40 saviors. Is your burden heavy, friend? Jesus said "My burden is light." Because he drank Pat's Diet Shake. Come down to the front, those of you who are tired and broken. Let the very fluid of God renew your souls. Oh, and we can baptize you, too, if you like. Strictly splashing. No time for dunking. Step right up, brothers and sisters in Christ. Don't be shy."
 
2014-02-10 05:13:27 PM  
Many were increasingly of the opinion that they'd all made a big mistake in coming down from the trees in the first place. And some said that even the trees had been a bad move, and that no one should ever have left the oceans.
 
2014-02-10 05:14:06 PM  
"That's a direction contradiction of the Bible's teaching that pain, anguish; travail, death and the dysfunctions of nature are a direct result of divine judgment because of man's sin," Creech argued.

So this whole "There were no weeds before man's fall from grace" thing seems new to me, just a few years old. Is everyone else seeing this, or has it(And all of the other little variations of it) been around forever?

Rev. Mark H. Creech, executive director of the Christian Action League, argued God established all scientific laws, so "good science will always point to Him."

Well, God had better try again, because absolutely ZERO scientific laws point to "Him".

Seriously, people... Just take the "Sure, the earth could be billions of years old, I just think we had a Creator that set things on course at the beginning, and things like evolution are just part of his plan." stance, about 2 billion more people would support you...
 
2014-02-10 05:14:50 PM  
had this conversation recently:
GH: God created evil
Fam: nu uh.
GH: Do we all agree God created the universe and everything in it?
Fam: unanimous agreement
GH: Then God had to create the ability for Eve to lie, right?
Fam: nu uh. God gave us freedom of choice.
GH: If there is a choice between good and evil, God had to create the choices to choose from, didn't he?
Fam: No, Eve ate from the apple that gave her the revelation that evil is possible. Evil (in mankind) didn't exist before that.
GH: What apple did Eve eat from?
Fam: From theTree of Knowledge
GH: Who created the Tree?
Fam:...
 
2014-02-10 05:16:27 PM  

Magorn: Define evil.


ok, how about cancer? if we were truly "intelligently designed," we'd simply die without pain.

the usual answer is that "god has a plan," which of course is just a total bullshiat cop out.

the actual answer is that there is no "god" and that in some unfortunate people, cells mutate uncontrollably due to genetic and/or environmental reasons.
 
2014-02-10 05:17:49 PM  

Bareefer Obonghit: "Did Adam stoop and his knuckles drag the ground when he walked with God in the garden?" Creech pondered. "Did Eve grunt when God asked her what she had done when she ate from the forbidden tree? If the first couple were just early advanced forms of primate, how responsible for their actions could they possibly be?"


The funny thing about this guy is that he makes me doubt that we all evolved to have higher intelligence than monkeys.


Yeah, I would LOVE to know what language he thinks they were magically born knowing. And that Tower of Babylon shiat has always been a paper thin excuse for having different languages in the world.
 
2014-02-10 05:19:37 PM  

Magorn: If your dog has a broken leg and you try to set it, he will try to hurt you because you are hurting him and he is incapable of understanding that the pain is for a higher purpose, and on a longer term scale, what you are doing is a good thing.



We do that because we do not possess the omnipotence required to set the bone instantly & painlessly.
The judeo/christian god does.
Arguments of the kind you are attempting to make always end up where god is incapable of finding any alternate path to his desired outcome outside of the one that causes suffering.

omniscient
omnipotent
omnibenevolent

You can't have all three.
 
2014-02-10 05:20:10 PM  

Mikey1969: Yeah, I would LOVE to know what language he thinks they were magically born knowing. And that Tower of Babylon shiat has always been a paper thin excuse for having different languages in the world.


you cannot argue with these people. their faith is unshakable. as one creationist put it, "If somewhere in the Bible I were to find a passage that says two plus two equals five, I wouldn't question what I'm reading in the Bible. I would believe it-accept it as true and then do my best to work it out and to understand it."
 
2014-02-10 05:20:55 PM  

FlashHarry: Magorn: Define evil.

ok, how about cancer? if we were truly "intelligently designed," we'd simply die without pain.



Why would a benevolent god every think to create Harlequin-type ichthyosis?
 
2014-02-10 05:22:25 PM  

God's Hubris: Why would a benevolent god every think to create Harlequin-type ichthyosis?


i'm guessing that i don't want to do a GIS for that.
 
2014-02-10 05:23:43 PM  

Magorn: scottydoesntknow: "If there was a primeval prevalence of these things before the fall of man, then that would leave only God himself responsible for such menace and mayhem. The very notion a God of love and order would work arbitrarily and brutally as suggested in evolution's old earth hypothesis - a way so contrary to his own nature - carries with it an implication [of] blasphemy."

Are we talking about the same God that flooded the world, burned up Sodom & Gomorrah, killed the firstborn son of everyone in Egypt, sent a plague that wiped out 70,000 Jews because David screwed up, and sent the angel of death to slaughter 185,000 Assyrians?

There's quite a bit of evidence for God being brutal even after the "fall of man". What makes you think he wasn't brutal before?

I think he's got an abused wife's understanding of God's Love.  I mean sure god went all homicidal and smitey a bunch of times in the Old Testament, (not least of which when he flooded the whole joint) but that's okay because   we made him do it by being all sinful and stuff.  Really a great guy, a loving creator, if we wouldn't get him so angry and riled up....

Jebus, I pity a man who truly believes in an omnipotent being that thinks that way


A lot of the crazier fundies talk about god like they're in a BDSM relationship with hir. I think this is part of why--they honestly believe their god wants them in perpetual slavery and that their god is only really evil when it's mankind's fault.
 
2014-02-10 05:26:18 PM  

FlashHarry: God's Hubris: Why would a benevolent god every think to create Harlequin-type ichthyosis?

i'm guessing that i don't want to do a GIS for that.


Good guess.
 
2014-02-10 05:26:50 PM  
The very notion a God of love and order would work arbitrarily and brutally as suggested in evolution's old earth hypothesis - a way so contrary to his own nature - carries with it an implication [of] blasphemy.

Why does God let bad things happen to good people monkeys?
 
2014-02-10 05:27:25 PM  

Beaver1224: When Pat Robertson is the rational side of the argument...


Lionel Mandrake: "Did Eve grunt when God asked her what she had done when she ate from the forbidden tree?"

Of course not.  She answered in perfect English with a proper American accent.


I like to picture her with a Southern drawl, giant preggers belly poking out  from under the too-small Earnhardt Jr. t-shirt and the top button of her button-fly daisy dukes left open.

"Well shoot Gawd, I wuz hungry. Asides... we aint got no Walmart yet!"
 
2014-02-10 05:29:06 PM  
fc05.deviantart.net
 
2014-02-10 05:29:55 PM  

FlashHarry: God's Hubris: Why would a benevolent god every think to create Harlequin-type ichthyosis?

i'm guessing that i don't want to do a GIS for that.



No, you don't. It depresses me that an all-loving god would intelligently design that.
 
2014-02-10 05:31:06 PM  
What does God look like?

If he created, oh, excuse me, He created man in His image, how do we know what that image was?

For all we know, Adam and Eve were drops of water filled with protozoa JUST LIKE GOD! And lo and behold, they evolved from that.

And another thing, how do we know how long God's days are? His days could be 2 million years long, ferchrist, er, uh, His sakes! It' still the 7th Day and he's still kicking it with his buds playing Xbox or something and THAT's why we have all these farked up religious wars over who's book of old ghost stories about invisible cloud beings is true and who's is wrong.

But what the fark do I know, i'm a Pastafarian . . .
 
2014-02-10 05:32:14 PM  

a particular individual: What is God made of?

If he's not made of anything, then he doesn't exist.
If he's made of something, then who made that stuff?

We could go on and on, but let's not.

POOP THREAD!


This isn't 4chan. They're called Scheiße threads in the civilized Farkosphere.
 
2014-02-10 05:33:26 PM  
Can God microwave a burrito so hot even he cannot eat it?
 
2014-02-10 05:34:05 PM  

FlashHarry: Mikey1969: Yeah, I would LOVE to know what language he thinks they were magically born knowing. And that Tower of Babylon shiat has always been a paper thin excuse for having different languages in the world.

you cannot argue with these people. their faith is unshakable. as one creationist put it, "If somewhere in the Bible I were to find a passage that says two plus two equals five, I wouldn't question what I'm reading in the Bible. I would believe it-accept it as true and then do my best to work it out and to understand it."


But 2+2 DOES equal 5.

As long as one of those twos is a three...
 
2014-02-10 05:36:08 PM  

Lord_Baull: FlashHarry: God's Hubris: Why would a benevolent god every think to create Harlequin-type ichthyosis?

i'm guessing that i don't want to do a GIS for that.


No, you don't. It depresses me that an all-loving god would intelligently design that.


I usually invoke Tay-Sachs disease to argue against an all-loving God.  It strikes infants (how much more innocent can you get?) who then suffer horribly for four years or so, then die.

Can't write that off as punishment for sin.
 
2014-02-10 05:37:27 PM  

lennavan: Kome: thinking in terms of functional purpose or intentionality - is simply endemic in humans' cognition

So you're suggesting most humans mistakenly think the human race intentionally evolved this way?

Kome: Bareefer Obonghit: The funny thing about this guy is that he makes me doubt that we all evolved to have higher intelligence than monkeys.

Technically, we didn't evolve "to have" anything.

Personally, I think he was just ever so slightly careless with wording.  Reading much too far into posts is simply endemic on Fark.com.


I can't speak for that poster specifically, but there is some research on that very question. I'll provide some citations below, but the gist of the research suggests that quite a number of people do, in fact, (mis)understand the evolutionary process to be an intentional one, and not simply creationists nor simply uneducated or ignorant people. The average human brain naturally thinks teleologically even at incredibly young ages, and many cultural institutions (e.g., religious ones) encourage such thinking across domains. And, across a number of studies, even the most analytic people resort to teleological thinking when under cognitive load (such as, for instance, when distracted). That is not to say, however, that people who mistakenly express something about a mindless, purposeless event or process such as evolution in a way that suggests intentionality or goal-directedness either do not know better on an analytic, deliberative level or, if they in fact don't know better, cannot be taught a more accurate understanding. But, it does suggest, ironically, that one of the consequences of humans' evolutionary history is one that makes us less able to intuitively understand the evolutionary process. Anyway, below are a bunch of references to scholarly work on the subject if you're interested. I've tried to keep it to a few recent publications, though some of the foundational research was done decades ago.

Evans, E. M., Legare, C. H., & Rosengren, K. (2011). Engaging multiple epistemologies: Implications for science education. Epistemology and science education: Understanding the evolution vs. intelligent design controversy, 111-139.

Evans, E. M., Spiegel, A. N., Gram, W., Frazier, B. N., Tare, M., Thompson, S., & Diamond, J. (2010). A conceptual guide to natural history museum visitors' understanding of evolution. Journal of Research in Science Teaching, 47(3), 326-353.

Gelman, S. A., & Legare, C. H. (2011). Concepts and folk theories. Annual review of anthropology, 40, 379.

Kelemen, D. (2012). Teleological minds: How natural intuitions about agency and purpose influence learning about evolution. Evolution challenges: Integrating research and practice in teaching and learning about evolution, 66-92.

Legare, C. H., Lane, J. D., & Evans, E. M. (2013). Anthropomorphizing Science: How Does It Affect the Development of Evolutionary Concepts?. Merrill-Palmer Quarterly, 59(2), 168-197.

Rosengren, K. S., Brem, S. K., Evans, E. M., & Sinatra, G. M. (Eds.). (2012). Evolution challenges: integrating research and practice in teaching and learning about evolution. Oxford University Press.
 
2014-02-10 05:42:59 PM  
static2.wikia.nocookie.net
 
2014-02-10 05:43:25 PM  

Lord_Baull: FlashHarry: God's Hubris: Why would a benevolent god every think to create Harlequin-type ichthyosis?

i'm guessing that i don't want to do a GIS for that.


No, you don't. It depresses me that an all-loving god would intelligently design that.


It's our punishment for allowing the gheys to be ghey.
 
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