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(Space.com)   Intelligent alien life will be detected by 2040, predicts researcher who did not specify when he believes intelligent life will be detected on Earth   (space.com) divider line 62
    More: Cool, aliens, SETI, Allen Telescope Array, NIAC, Seth Shostak, Kepler space telescope, Institute in Mountain View, Milky Way Galaxy  
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1197 clicks; posted to Geek » on 10 Feb 2014 at 5:00 PM (31 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-02-10 02:04:54 PM
Last century SETI big wigs had predicted that we would detect alien life before the millennium, SETI is the wrong tool for the job. The universe MAY indeed be teeming with life but SETI will most likely NEVER find it. SETI makes some rather bold assertions about technology and the nature of civilization. The very attributes religious folks ascribe to gods SETI  backer assign to aliens. SETI is a religious quest for atheists and NOTHING more.
 
2014-02-10 03:09:14 PM
Perhaps, as some wit remarked, the best proof that there is Intelligent Life in Outer Space is the fact it hasn't come here. Well, it can't hide forever - one day we will overhear it.

~ Arthur C. Clarke
 
2014-02-10 03:21:04 PM
A self hating human, that is a new take.
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2014-02-10 03:30:34 PM
There is no way he could possibly calculate the odds of finding life by a particular time without knowing a lot of things we don't know.
 
2014-02-10 03:38:32 PM

vpb: There is no way he could possibly calculate the odds of finding life by a particular time without knowing a lot of things we don't know.


this
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2014-02-10 03:39:04 PM

Delawheredad: Last century SETI big wigs had predicted that we would detect alien life before the millennium, SETI is the wrong tool for the job. The universe MAY indeed be teeming with life but SETI will most likely NEVER find it. SETI makes some rather bold assertions about technology and the nature of civilization. The very attributes religious folks ascribe to gods SETI  backer assign to aliens. SETI is a religious quest for atheists and NOTHING more.


I wonder how the religious types who work in SETI feel about that?  They must be doing it ironically.
 
2014-02-10 04:23:01 PM
vpb

  Think about it the supposedly non-religious backers of SETI assign, with ZERO evidence the VERY SAME attributes to aliens that religious folks ascribe to gods. According to most SETI backers aliens are: smarter than we are, more advanced than we are, would be able to tell us how to solve nearly all terrestrial problems, would usher in an era of world peace. Sounds like angels, god or what have you. Belief like this IS akin to religious thinking, It certainly is not based on anything other than conjecture and wishful thinking.

   Yet if you point this out to believers in alien intelligence elsewhere in the universe they claim that they are being logical and deducing rationally from a  set of probabilities. That is utter bullshait  we have NO WAY OF DETERMINING ANYTHING alien civilizations while here on earth. SETI will most likely NEVER produce the aliens they seek -- just like religious believers who can never produce evidence for the gods they worship.
 
2014-02-10 04:35:35 PM
Rational, logical, and promoter of atheism, Carl Sagan used FEDERAL money to search Viking orbiter photographs for evidence of a long lost Martian civilization!  While the search for life elsewhere in the solar system and universe is worthwhile goal, this episode on Sagan's part can ONLY be explained by wishful thinking and fantasy NOTHING ELSE. He read too much Edgar Rich Burroughs as a kid and just could not let the fantasy go even when looking at data that plainly demonstrated that mars had been a dead world for millions of years. THAT IS THE SAME TYPE OF THINKING AS RELIGIOUS MUSH HEADS!
 
2014-02-10 04:39:10 PM

Delawheredad: vpb

  Think about it the supposedly non-religious backers of SETI assign, with ZERO evidence the VERY SAME attributes to aliens that religious folks ascribe to gods. According to most SETI backers aliens are: smarter than we are, more advanced than we are, would be able to tell us how to solve nearly all terrestrial problems, would usher in an era of world peace. Sounds like angels, god or what have you. Belief like this IS akin to religious thinking, It certainly is not based on anything other than conjecture and wishful thinking.

   Yet if you point this out to believers in alien intelligence elsewhere in the universe they claim that they are being logical and deducing rationally from a  set of probabilities. That is utter bullshait  we have NO WAY OF DETERMINING ANYTHING alien civilizations while here on earth. SETI will most likely NEVER produce the aliens they seek -- just like religious believers who can never produce evidence for the gods they worship.


I partake in SETI@Home. Are there aliens? I don't know, but I would love to find out if we do.

You are wrong. SETI folk are pragmatic. I am an average SETI supporter. I don't believe in flying saucers. I don't believe in alien abduction. I don't believe in sitting on our hands and saying "fark it, they probably aren't out there so we shouldn't try". I believe in human exploration. Learning everything we can about our universe is what we SETI supporters like. Imagine if mankind never left Africa. Our lives would be so different. It took the bravery of our ancestors to journey from the known into the unknown for mankind to truly thrive.
 
2014-02-10 05:07:08 PM
Cman

  It would be wonderful if we are not alone in the universe. You claim to be "pragmatic" notice that I posted NOTHING about UFOs or alien abduction. No doubt you believe that if we DO ever contact aliens they will be our betters in just about every way. You WON'T admit it but essentially you are looking for god in outer space. like the ancient philosophers who filled the void with angels and the spirits of the dead you populate it with all sorts of miraculous beings. In a sense you are the SAME mush brained thinker as a religious person.

  i LOVE the IDEA of SETI but it is probably useless for achieving its aims of locating alien life elsewhere in the universe. i hate to say it but it is a simple fact. Ancient knights searched for the mythical grail. SETI backers have their own, just as mythical grail.
 
2014-02-10 05:10:51 PM
They will be demons.
They are already here.
 
2014-02-10 05:21:43 PM

static.comicvine.com

Join the Colonial Marines.  See exciting new locations.  Meet new species.

AND KILL THEM!

 
2014-02-10 05:23:29 PM

Delawheredad: Cman

  It would be wonderful if we are not alone in the universe. You claim to be "pragmatic" notice that I posted NOTHING about UFOs or alien abduction. No doubt you believe that if we DO ever contact aliens they will be our betters in just about every way. You WON'T admit it but essentially you are looking for god in outer space. like the ancient philosophers who filled the void with angels and the spirits of the dead you populate it with all sorts of miraculous beings. In a sense you are the SAME mush brained thinker as a religious person.

  i LOVE the IDEA of SETI but it is probably useless for achieving its aims of locating alien life elsewhere in the universe. i hate to say it but it is a simple fact. Ancient knights searched for the mythical grail. SETI backers have their own, just as mythical grail.


So then, it is entirely a foolish quest to explore and search for answers? You do realize that a large part of our advancement has come unexpectedly, and that would not have happened had there not been an optimistic fool leading the charge right?
 
2014-02-10 05:29:49 PM

Delawheredad: Cman

  It would be wonderful if we are not alone in the universe. You claim to be "pragmatic" notice that I posted NOTHING about UFOs or alien abduction. No doubt you believe that if we DO ever contact aliens they will be our betters in just about every way. You WON'T admit it but essentially you are looking for god in outer space. like the ancient philosophers who filled the void with angels and the spirits of the dead you populate it with all sorts of miraculous beings. In a sense you are the SAME mush brained thinker as a religious person.

  i LOVE the IDEA of SETI but it is probably useless for achieving its aims of locating alien life elsewhere in the universe. i hate to say it but it is a simple fact. Ancient knights searched for the mythical grail. SETI backers have their own, just as mythical grail.


Do you have any idea how big the universe is?

No, you don't, and there is a reason for it: its because the universe is just soooo massive that the layman cannot comprehend its size.

Why do I bring it up? I am gonna steal a quote from the movie Apollo 13: imagine if Columbus discovered the new world and no one followed in his footsteps. I want adventure. I want exploration. If that makes you think that I am similar to a religious nut then fine.
 
2014-02-10 05:30:01 PM

the money is in the banana stand: Delawheredad: Cman

  It would be wonderful if we are not alone in the universe. You claim to be "pragmatic" notice that I posted NOTHING about UFOs or alien abduction. No doubt you believe that if we DO ever contact aliens they will be our betters in just about every way. You WON'T admit it but essentially you are looking for god in outer space. like the ancient philosophers who filled the void with angels and the spirits of the dead you populate it with all sorts of miraculous beings. In a sense you are the SAME mush brained thinker as a religious person.

  i LOVE the IDEA of SETI but it is probably useless for achieving its aims of locating alien life elsewhere in the universe. i hate to say it but it is a simple fact. Ancient knights searched for the mythical grail. SETI backers have their own, just as mythical grail.

So then, it is entirely a foolish quest to explore and search for answers? You do realize that a large part of our advancement has come unexpectedly, and that would not have happened had there not been an optimistic fool leading the charge right?


As an aside on his point...do we have more evidence of God...or extra-terrestrial intelligent life?
 
2014-02-10 05:31:12 PM

Chris Ween: the money is in the banana stand: Delawheredad: Cman

  It would be wonderful if we are not alone in the universe. You claim to be "pragmatic" notice that I posted NOTHING about UFOs or alien abduction. No doubt you believe that if we DO ever contact aliens they will be our betters in just about every way. You WON'T admit it but essentially you are looking for god in outer space. like the ancient philosophers who filled the void with angels and the spirits of the dead you populate it with all sorts of miraculous beings. In a sense you are the SAME mush brained thinker as a religious person.

  i LOVE the IDEA of SETI but it is probably useless for achieving its aims of locating alien life elsewhere in the universe. i hate to say it but it is a simple fact. Ancient knights searched for the mythical grail. SETI backers have their own, just as mythical grail.

So then, it is entirely a foolish quest to explore and search for answers? You do realize that a large part of our advancement has come unexpectedly, and that would not have happened had there not been an optimistic fool leading the charge right?

As an aside on his point...do we have more evidence of God...or extra-terrestrial intelligent life?


We have neither. No proof whatsoever.
 
2014-02-10 05:33:19 PM
The chance there is life outside our solar system: pretty darn high.
The chance of use ever meeting it in any meaningful way: pretty darn low.

Why can't alien chasers understand the sheer size of the universe?
 
2014-02-10 05:33:32 PM

cman: Chris Ween: the money is in the banana stand: Delawheredad: Cman

  It would be wonderful if we are not alone in the universe. You claim to be "pragmatic" notice that I posted NOTHING about UFOs or alien abduction. No doubt you believe that if we DO ever contact aliens they will be our betters in just about every way. You WON'T admit it but essentially you are looking for god in outer space. like the ancient philosophers who filled the void with angels and the spirits of the dead you populate it with all sorts of miraculous beings. In a sense you are the SAME mush brained thinker as a religious person.

  i LOVE the IDEA of SETI but it is probably useless for achieving its aims of locating alien life elsewhere in the universe. i hate to say it but it is a simple fact. Ancient knights searched for the mythical grail. SETI backers have their own, just as mythical grail.

So then, it is entirely a foolish quest to explore and search for answers? You do realize that a large part of our advancement has come unexpectedly, and that would not have happened had there not been an optimistic fool leading the charge right?

As an aside on his point...do we have more evidence of God...or extra-terrestrial intelligent life?

We have neither. No proof whatsoever.


Well, we have us....so, I guess that is sort of proof that either of the above could exist.
 
2014-02-10 05:34:03 PM

cman: vpb: There is no way he could possibly calculate the odds of finding life by a particular time without knowing a lot of things we don't know.

this


Seconded.

the money is in the banana stand: So then, it is entirely a foolish quest to explore and search for answers? You do realize that a large part of our advancement has come unexpectedly, and that would not have happened had there not been an optimistic fool leading the charge right?


And this as well. Even if we don't find aliens, we might still find other interesting things in the process of looking.

If we do find aliens, there might be a lot of value to finding out about them sooner rather than later.
 
2014-02-10 05:38:52 PM
the money s in the  banana stand

 Reading what you want to read aren't you? The search for intelligent life elsewhere in our solar system and the universe is a worthwhile goal which will have profound impact on the world.(Though not the impact so many wish for. Religion will most likely be unaffected by the news that we are not alone. Much to the chagrin of creators of SETI such as Dr Drake of Drake's equation.)

The problem is that SETI is MOST LIKELY the wrong tool for the job. There is no good reason to believe that aliens are broadcasting in a way that we can overhear them. We have really NO CLUE as to how greatly advanced civilizations may communicate with each other across the vastness or even IF THEY CAN! That still does not stop SETI devotees from believing that they are just a few years away from a break through. The Christians have told us for millennia that Jesus is on his way back any day.

  Here is a real world example from WWII. The American who designed Allied radio communications during the war discovered that the Nazis were only broadcasting in a narrow range of frequencies. By using a frequency higher that the Germans were using the allies kept their top secret communications from even being picked up. It NEVER occurred to the Germans to check the higher frequencies! SETI may be doing the very same thing, listening on the wrong channel for a broadcast that is going out in a totally different way.
 
2014-02-10 05:41:33 PM

Chris Ween: the money is in the banana stand: Delawheredad: Cman

  It would be wonderful if we are not alone in the universe. You claim to be "pragmatic" notice that I posted NOTHING about UFOs or alien abduction. No doubt you believe that if we DO ever contact aliens they will be our betters in just about every way. You WON'T admit it but essentially you are looking for god in outer space. like the ancient philosophers who filled the void with angels and the spirits of the dead you populate it with all sorts of miraculous beings. In a sense you are the SAME mush brained thinker as a religious person.

  i LOVE the IDEA of SETI but it is probably useless for achieving its aims of locating alien life elsewhere in the universe. i hate to say it but it is a simple fact. Ancient knights searched for the mythical grail. SETI backers have their own, just as mythical grail.

So then, it is entirely a foolish quest to explore and search for answers? You do realize that a large part of our advancement has come unexpectedly, and that would not have happened had there not been an optimistic fool leading the charge right?

As an aside on his point...do we have more evidence of God...or extra-terrestrial intelligent life?


It depends on how you view things and what your definition of God is. You seem to think you either believe in God, or believe in extra-terrestrial intelligent life. Can it not be both? What if life, the universe, everything is evidence of God?
 
2014-02-10 05:41:45 PM

Delawheredad: the money s in the  banana stand

 Reading what you want to read aren't you? The search for intelligent life elsewhere in our solar system and the universe is a worthwhile goal which will have profound impact on the world.(Though not the impact so many wish for. Religion will most likely be unaffected by the news that we are not alone. Much to the chagrin of creators of SETI such as Dr Drake of Drake's equation.)

The problem is that SETI is MOST LIKELY the wrong tool for the job. There is no good reason to believe that aliens are broadcasting in a way that we can overhear them. We have really NO CLUE as to how greatly advanced civilizations may communicate with each other across the vastness or even IF THEY CAN! That still does not stop SETI devotees from believing that they are just a few years away from a break through. The Christians have told us for millennia that Jesus is on his way back any day.

  Here is a real world example from WWII. The American who designed Allied radio communications during the war discovered that the Nazis were only broadcasting in a narrow range of frequencies. By using a frequency higher that the Germans were using the allies kept their top secret communications from even being picked up. It NEVER occurred to the Germans to check the higher frequencies! SETI may be doing the very same thing, listening on the wrong channel for a broadcast that is going out in a totally different way.


You are right

We have no idea how they communicate

It is a shot in the dark.

But we have to start somewhere, and where we can start is what we know. DNA might not be the only thing that gives life but that's what our rover searches for on Mars. Why? Because that's what we know.

You have got to start somewhere.
 
2014-02-10 05:44:34 PM
31.media.tumblr.com
 
2014-02-10 05:45:53 PM

Delawheredad: the money s in the  banana stand

 Reading what you want to read aren't you? The search for intelligent life elsewhere in our solar system and the universe is a worthwhile goal which will have profound impact on the world.(Though not the impact so many wish for. Religion will most likely be unaffected by the news that we are not alone. Much to the chagrin of creators of SETI such as Dr Drake of Drake's equation.)

The problem is that SETI is MOST LIKELY the wrong tool for the job. There is no good reason to believe that aliens are broadcasting in a way that we can overhear them. We have really NO CLUE as to how greatly advanced civilizations may communicate with each other across the vastness or even IF THEY CAN! That still does not stop SETI devotees from believing that they are just a few years away from a break through. The Christians have told us for millennia that Jesus is on his way back any day.

  Here is a real world example from WWII. The American who designed Allied radio communications during the war discovered that the Nazis were only broadcasting in a narrow range of frequencies. By using a frequency higher that the Germans were using the allies kept their top secret communications from even being picked up. It NEVER occurred to the Germans to check the higher frequencies! SETI may be doing the very same thing, listening on the wrong channel for a broadcast that is going out in a totally different way.


And? Why does it matter what others do? It is a fools errand and the odds are ever against them - sure. You are correct that them claiming they will find extra-terrestrial life by 2040 is dubious at best, but if it motivates and gets folks interested in Science - who is it really hurting? I would rather some folks try something rather than brood all day long. You sure as shiat aren't going to find intelligent life if you don't look for it.
 
2014-02-10 05:49:50 PM

cman: Delawheredad: the money s in the  banana stand

 Reading what you want to read aren't you? The search for intelligent life elsewhere in our solar system and the universe is a worthwhile goal which will have profound impact on the world.(Though not the impact so many wish for. Religion will most likely be unaffected by the news that we are not alone. Much to the chagrin of creators of SETI such as Dr Drake of Drake's equation.)

The problem is that SETI is MOST LIKELY the wrong tool for the job. There is no good reason to believe that aliens are broadcasting in a way that we can overhear them. We have really NO CLUE as to how greatly advanced civilizations may communicate with each other across the vastness or even IF THEY CAN! That still does not stop SETI devotees from believing that they are just a few years away from a break through. The Christians have told us for millennia that Jesus is on his way back any day.

  Here is a real world example from WWII. The American who designed Allied radio communications during the war discovered that the Nazis were only broadcasting in a narrow range of frequencies. By using a frequency higher that the Germans were using the allies kept their top secret communications from even being picked up. It NEVER occurred to the Germans to check the higher frequencies! SETI may be doing the very same thing, listening on the wrong channel for a broadcast that is going out in a totally different way.

You are right

We have no idea how they communicate

It is a shot in the dark.

But we have to start somewhere, and where we can start is what we know. DNA might not be the only thing that gives life but that's what our rover searches for on Mars. Why? Because that's what we know.

You have got to start somewhere.


Yeah, start with something productive.  This mythical finding of intelligent life should not be very high on our priority list, IMO. Are they out there? Yep. I have not been convinced that:
A) we can expect to detect them
B) it's of any use to us to detect them

Maybe this is appropriate for elementary school science fair though.
 
2014-02-10 06:00:34 PM

waterrockets: Yeah, start with something productive. This mythical finding of intelligent life should not be very high on our priority list, IMO. Are they out there? Yep. I have not been convinced that:
A) we can expect to detect them
B) it's of any use to us to detect them

Maybe this is appropriate for elementary school science fair though.


Humanity, by and large, has a very twisted sense of priorities. Almost everyone would place their needs or desires above all else. Few care about the longevity of our species, the advances it makes, or the quality of life future generations have. We are selfish and myopic. Sit down and think what the point of life is. What is your goal and your priority? What is the course of action you would take to get there?
 
2014-02-10 06:02:42 PM
The money is on the banana stand

And? Why does it matter what others do? It is a fools errand and the odds are ever against them - sure. You are correct that them claiming they will find extra-terrestrial life by 2040 is dubious at best, but if it motivates and gets folks interested in Science - who is it really hurting? I would rather some folks try something rather than brood all day long. You sure as shiat aren't going to find intelligent life if you don't look for it.

   There are LOTS of ways to get people interested in science that are FAR more productive and immediate than SETI is or ever will be. Look at how many  kids will grow up to be scientists of all stripes because of the Mars landers and the various space probes we have sent out to other planets. Bill Nye the science guy has probably created more scientists alone than SETI ever will. i Don't object to folks doing SETI on their own time so long as they understand at the outset that it is essentially a snipe hunt. And as liberal as I am i would rather see my tax money go to some deserving poor urban person or farmer before a single tax payer dime goes to SETI..
 
2014-02-10 06:07:21 PM

cman: vpb: There is no way he could possibly calculate the odds of finding life by a particular time without knowing a lot of things we don't know.

this


And yet I get told off in a previous Fark thread for pointing this out to stupid assholes who think they can prove that aliens "must" exist via merely math.
 
2014-02-10 06:20:21 PM
One thing that really bothers me about SETI proponents they hail some statistics but ignore more important ones. First and foremost is the assumption that universe produces intelligent life in great numbers. The universe MAY indeed be teeming with life but intelligence may be very rare. There is no reason to assume that evolution favors intelligence. Billions of creatures occupy earth but only a few have even the rudiments of intelligence. There were a series of mass extinctions and incredibly LUCKY accidents that had to occur for human life to climb its way up the evolutionary ladder.

  Dinosaurs had the planet for millions of years and never evolved intelligence. 99.99999% of the life on our OWN planet gets along fine without intelligence.Some don't even have brains! The idea that the amazing roll of consecutive sevens that led to human intelligence on earth was repeated MILLIONS of times in the  universe is a haphazard guess at best. Intelligence like ours may very well be scattered like a fine mist across the universe. In that light the idea that we will contact other intelligences falls to virtually nil.

  The Drake equation is flawed in virtually every aspect. Still think SETI is a great idea? .
 
2014-02-10 06:28:48 PM

Delawheredad: vpb

  Think about it the supposedly non-religious backers of SETI assign, with ZERO evidence the VERY SAME attributes to aliens that religious folks ascribe to gods. According to most SETI backers aliens are: smarter than we are, more advanced than we are, would be able to tell us how to solve nearly all terrestrial problems, would usher in an era of world peace. Sounds like angels, god or what have you. Belief like this IS akin to religious thinking, It certainly is not based on anything other than conjecture and wishful thinking.

   Yet if you point this out to believers in alien intelligence elsewhere in the universe they claim that they are being logical and deducing rationally from a  set of probabilities. That is utter bullshait  we have NO WAY OF DETERMINING ANYTHING alien civilizations while here on earth. SETI will most likely NEVER produce the aliens they seek -- just like religious believers who can never produce evidence for the gods they worship.


Actually, there's a good logical rationale for believing that any intelligent alien life will be far more advanced than us if we ever do find it. Due to the massive size and age of the universe any intelligent life we find will almost certainly be vastly older than us. We're talking many millions if not billions of years older of a civilization. That's a loooooong time for some R&D.
 
2014-02-10 06:28:58 PM

Delawheredad: One thing that really bothers me about SETI proponents they hail some statistics but ignore more important ones. First and foremost is the assumption that universe produces intelligent life in great numbers. The universe MAY indeed be teeming with life but intelligence may be very rare. There is no reason to assume that evolution favors intelligence. Billions of creatures occupy earth but only a few have even the rudiments of intelligence. There were a series of mass extinctions and incredibly LUCKY accidents that had to occur for human life to climb its way up the evolutionary ladder.

  Dinosaurs had the planet for millions of years and never evolved intelligence. 99.99999% of the life on our OWN planet gets along fine without intelligence.Some don't even have brains! The idea that the amazing roll of consecutive sevens that led to human intelligence on earth was repeated MILLIONS of times in the  universe is a haphazard guess at best. Intelligence like ours may very well be scattered like a fine mist across the universe. In that light the idea that we will contact other intelligences falls to virtually nil.

  The Drake equation is flawed in virtually every aspect. Still think SETI is a great idea? .


This might be relevant to your interests
 
2014-02-10 06:50:00 PM
It is a statistical certainty that there is intelligent life elsewhere in the universe. But it is far far more likely that it exists far enough away that we will never know about them in the lifetime of our species.
 
2014-02-10 06:51:16 PM
Delawheredad: Stuff

Posting a hundred times while constantly using bold and caps lock, not to mention your terrible grammar, doesn't make people want to read what you type.

/Dial it down a little.
 
2014-02-10 06:52:48 PM
Mongobiohazard

Actually, there's a good logical rationale for believing that any intelligent alien life will be far more advanced than us if we ever do find it. Due to the massive size and age of the universe any intelligent life we find will almost certainly be vastly older than us. We're talking many millions if not billions of years older of a civilization. That's a loooooong time for some R&D.

 Actually NO! If we go by the history of civilization on this planet (and it is the only model that we have)  then NO civilization last more than a few thousand years. The idea that aliens have some magical  ability to avoid the repeated birth and collapse of civilization is simply WISHFUL thinking!

  The idea that the HAVE to be far older than us is also ONLY a hypothesis. If mass extinctions that stimulate intelligence on billion year scales is the norm in the universe then they may be NO MORE EVOLVED than we! .

  Your assumptions are simply wishful thinking. You believe it because you WANT to believe it not because it is 'logical."
 
2014-02-10 06:58:48 PM

Delawheredad: Mongobiohazard

Actually, there's a good logical rationale for believing that any intelligent alien life will be far more advanced than us if we ever do find it. Due to the massive size and age of the universe any intelligent life we find will almost certainly be vastly older than us. We're talking many millions if not billions of years older of a civilization. That's a loooooong time for some R&D.

 Actually NO! If we go by the history of civilization on this planet (and it is the only model that we have)  then NO civilization last more than a few thousand years. The idea that aliens have some magical  ability to avoid the repeated birth and collapse of civilization is simply WISHFUL thinking!

  The idea that the HAVE to be far older than us is also ONLY a hypothesis. If mass extinctions that stimulate intelligence on billion year scales is the norm in the universe then they may be NO MORE EVOLVED than we! .

  Your assumptions are simply wishful thinking. You believe it because you WANT to believe it not because it is 'logical."


I believe we have found our QA 2.0.
 
2014-02-10 07:13:16 PM

Delawheredad: Mongobiohazard

Actually, there's a good logical rationale for believing that any intelligent alien life will be far more advanced than us if we ever do find it. Due to the massive size and age of the universe any intelligent life we find will almost certainly be vastly older than us. We're talking many millions if not billions of years older of a civilization. That's a loooooong time for some R&D.

 Actually NO! If we go by the history of civilization on this planet (and it is the only model that we have)  then NO civilization last more than a few thousand years. The idea that aliens have some magical  ability to avoid the repeated birth and collapse of civilization is simply WISHFUL thinking!

  The idea that the HAVE to be far older than us is also ONLY a hypothesis. If mass extinctions that stimulate intelligence on billion year scales is the norm in the universe then they may be NO MORE EVOLVED than we! .

  Your assumptions are simply wishful thinking. You believe it because you WANT to believe it not because it is 'logical."


However, even if we use ourselves as the example keep in mind that as our species matures our civilizations are rapidly becoming more stable and peaceful then they were before. The last century was actually the most peaceful in history, and with the lowest chance of you being murdered by your fellow man. Reality is contradicting your assumptions.

Now keep in mind that I'd we do ever find intelligent life in the universe it will likely have originally evolved many millions if not billions of years ago - just mathematically speaking because we're such a young race when compared against the age of the universe. For intelligent life to survive for let's say 500 million years it damn well would be much more advanced then us. I doubt there's a way for any species to survive so long to the present day otherwise.
 
2014-02-10 07:17:35 PM
ThreadSinger:

I believe we have found our QA 2.0.

I was thinking the same thing. Either that or his sockpuppet.
 
2014-02-10 07:20:55 PM
Wow, and from out of left field we find out Delawheredad has a major obsession. Sure is passionate for bashing anyone or any thing that thinks at the very least listening is a good idea. Someone burn him in a religious or Shroud of Turin thread or something?

/one of those Fark handles that's got some age, but I've never seen it post before.
//Ah well, I can make sure I never see that tripe again.

Delawheredad: The idea that the HAVE to be far older than us is also ONLY a hypothesis


But it has credence.

We've only had the technology a short while.  Obviously, if they don't have the technology, we won't hear from them.  If we do hear from them, it's going to be from a very long way off(meaning they were transmitting before we had the ability to even listen).

They've a very small window, would have to have developed in tandem with us if they are going to be somewhat on par.

Added up, statistics are in favor that IF we hear from other life, they're going to be ahead of our curve.

We are, for all intents and purposes, children, smart enough to know just how much we don't know, but young nonetheless.  Most of the people we see on a daily basis, aside from school(an orchestrated construct), are going to be people far older than us.

Unless you are suggesting that we are part of an orchestrated construct...

Which is why I said what I did before replying.  If anyone is similar to a religious nutbag, it's you, Sparky.  Not very many other types of people will repeatedly drop walls of vitriolic text in a thread more or less about technology and science.
 
2014-02-10 07:23:07 PM

ThreadSinger: I believe we have found our QA 2.0.


That's the vibe I got too, but you put it much more succinctly.
/well named Fark tag if you're like that a lot
 
2014-02-10 07:25:12 PM

the money is in the banana stand: Chris Ween: the money is in the banana stand: Delawheredad: Cman

  It would be wonderful if we are not alone in the universe. You claim to be "pragmatic" notice that I posted NOTHING about UFOs or alien abduction. No doubt you believe that if we DO ever contact aliens they will be our betters in just about every way. You WON'T admit it but essentially you are looking for god in outer space. like the ancient philosophers who filled the void with angels and the spirits of the dead you populate it with all sorts of miraculous beings. In a sense you are the SAME mush brained thinker as a religious person.

  i LOVE the IDEA of SETI but it is probably useless for achieving its aims of locating alien life elsewhere in the universe. i hate to say it but it is a simple fact. Ancient knights searched for the mythical grail. SETI backers have their own, just as mythical grail.

So then, it is entirely a foolish quest to explore and search for answers? You do realize that a large part of our advancement has come unexpectedly, and that would not have happened had there not been an optimistic fool leading the charge right?

As an aside on his point...do we have more evidence of God...or extra-terrestrial intelligent life?

It depends on how you view things and what your definition of God is. You seem to think you either believe in God, or believe in extra-terrestrial intelligent life. Can it not be both? What if life, the universe, everything is evidence of God?


Douglas Adams is God? I knew it!
 
2014-02-10 07:40:53 PM

omeganuepsilon: ThreadSinger: I believe we have found our QA 2.0.

That's the vibe I got too, but you put it much more succinctly.
/well named Fark tag if you're like that a lot


Thanks man!

/depends on BAC
//goes the full spectrum from Feynman to Ugragog, Destroyer of Worlds
 
2014-02-10 07:48:01 PM

ThreadSinger: Feynman to Ugragog, Destroyer of Worlds


Heh, I'm about the same.  But I don't drink much anymore(ex modern drunkard though, so cheers).  My attitude on fark depends on the ratio of cool people to the QA's.  Sadly, the balance has shifted towards the latter in recent years, therefore I find myself being vile more often than not.

Not that I mind terribly, either way the posting is fun and not serious business(I just won't let stupidity go without challenge).  As long as the cool people don't get washed away in the flood, I'll stick around.
 
2014-02-10 07:52:03 PM
But I'm telling YOU that this stuff about ALIENS is a bunch of COCKADOODIE MUMBO JUMBO!

What's wrong with all of you people?
 
2014-02-10 08:11:17 PM

Delawheredad: Mongobiohazard

Actually, there's a good logical rationale for believing that any intelligent alien life will be far more advanced than us if we ever do find it. Due to the massive size and age of the universe any intelligent life we find will almost certainly be vastly older than us. We're talking many millions if not billions of years older of a civilization. That's a loooooong time for some R&D.

 Actually NO! If we go by the history of civilization on this planet (and it is the only model that we have)  then NO civilization last more than a few thousand years. The idea that aliens have some magical  ability to avoid the repeated birth and collapse of civilization is simply WISHFUL thinking!

  The idea that the HAVE to be far older than us is also ONLY a hypothesis. If mass extinctions that stimulate intelligence on billion year scales is the norm in the universe then they may be NO MORE EVOLVED than we! .


Erm.  There's actually no evidence that proves that civilization collapse is inevitable; in fact, you could argue that since about 1492, the only thing that's truly changed is which nation is in the lead.  At least, the march of technological advance has meant civilization "collapse" just means some other power leads the next advance.

So we can't use ourselves as a model in that sense.  All we can say is that at least for some point in time, the powers that be have had the ability to both receive and transmit signals into space.  How long that lasts is still unknown for us.
 
2014-02-10 08:43:00 PM
Welcome to DarkMa77er Radio HiBo 60433201.00009932833!!!
This just in: God didn't exist in sector V until a psychic/industrial accident. Zero-Point HazMat teams are on-site to clean up the area.
 
2014-02-10 08:51:34 PM

vpb: There is no way he could possibly calculate the odds of finding life by a particular time without knowing a lot of things we don't know.


The scary part is, looking at the terms in the Drake Equation, where the improbability is moving to. It used to be plausible to assume "There aren't many planets out there" or "there are very few planets in the habitable zone" or such - i.e. that the improbable steps exist before us. But now we're finding more and more evidence that those steps aren't so terribly unlikely. Which means, given the ongoing paucity of Contact, that the majority of the "filter" may lay in our future. Or, it's looking like we haven't made it past the hard steps yet.

But OTOH, the Drake Equation was formulated when analog broadcasting was all the rage and Earth was brighter than the Sun in the lower RF bands. Today it's all sent up as pencilbeam microwave, and retransmitted to earth's surface, digitally. The power leakage is hugely down, AND it's now a stream of indistinguishable hissing: If you don't know anything about a digital transmission scheme, it's as good as encrypted. So there's about a 50 year or so window when you'd pick up analog RGB+Sync signals, then the planet's back to being invisible.
 
2014-02-10 08:56:10 PM

Delawheredad: One thing that really bothers me about SETI proponents they hail some statistics but ignore more important ones. First and foremost is the assumption that universe produces intelligent life in great numbers. The universe MAY indeed be teeming with life but intelligence may be very rare. There is no reason to assume that evolution favors intelligence. Billions of creatures occupy earth but only a few have even the rudiments of intelligence. There were a series of mass extinctions and incredibly LUCKY accidents that had to occur for human life to climb its way up the evolutionary ladder.

  Dinosaurs had the planet for millions of years and never evolved intelligence. 99.99999% of the life on our OWN planet gets along fine without intelligence.Some don't even have brains! The idea that the amazing roll of consecutive sevens that led to human intelligence on earth was repeated MILLIONS of times in the  universe is a haphazard guess at best. Intelligence like ours may very well be scattered like a fine mist across the universe. In that light the idea that we will contact other intelligences falls to virtually nil.

  The Drake equation is flawed in virtually every aspect. Still think SETI is a great idea? .


Any extra eyes looking up is a good idea. They may not find ET, but they might find something else important.
 
2014-02-10 09:41:45 PM
I understand some of the objections sent my way. I DO tend to lean on the bold and uppercase keys. I'll try to tone it down.

  My main points are simple but seemed to have been ignored in favor of attacks on my person.
I have NO problem with SETI so long as tax payers money does not go towards it.
I think there is probably intelligent life elsewhere in the universe HOWEVER we have no idea how evolution has shaped life on other worlds. Human intelligence may not be the "aim" of evolution. It could well be a bug rather than a feature. That said, ascribing wondrous powers and abilities to alien entities is wishful thinking at its most basic. There is no reason to expect a solution to our problems and dilemmas through contact with aliens,

 Frank Drake for example, with no justification, claims that aliens are immortal and they can teach us how to be immortal as well! This man is a founder of SETI but possessing a Phd  can't prevent him from sounding like a secular Jesus freak.

  By all means continue SETI but remind folks that it is essentially an electronic snipe hunt.
 
2014-02-11 03:07:26 AM
SETI is a crap shoot. As we demonstrate, any technologically advancing civilization would quickly advance past beaming high powered radio transmissions into space.
 
2014-02-11 04:34:00 AM

Delawheredad: Actually NO! If we go by the history of civilization on this planet (and it is the only model that we have)  then NO civilization last more than a few thousand years. The idea that aliens have some magical  ability to avoid the repeated birth and collapse of civilization is simply WISHFUL thinking!


It's not about the ability of civilizations to avoid collapse. Let's say that the conditions on earth were such that the evolution of various species would have allowed for a space-faring race to leave the planet, say, 50 million years ago. But 65 million years ago, a meteor wiped out almost all life on earth - quite a big setback. And really bad luck too.

Now let's say that another planet had more or less the same evolution of progress as earth, but they were lucky enough to not have a life-destroying meteor hit them....
 
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