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(Spiked)   "What's the point of learning Dutch? Why not Italian or French, those international languages of music, diplomacy, cuisine and literature? Hell, if I'm going to learn a Germanic language properly, why not learn a useful one? Like German"   (spiked-online.com) divider line 106
    More: Obvious, Dutch, Continental Europe, northern France, lingua franca, Flemish, second language, Wel, Christmas markets  
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2485 clicks; posted to Geek » on 10 Feb 2014 at 11:43 AM (9 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-02-10 10:40:00 AM
Its because we are raised to be in awe of French and Roman cultures and history but are shown little of Dutch culture. If we were exposed to Dutch culture at a young age, maybe that would change minds.
 
2014-02-10 10:50:26 AM
ecx.images-amazon.com
 
2014-02-10 11:00:31 AM
So you can know what Amsterdam hookers are saying about you behind your back...
 
2014-02-10 11:24:10 AM

Candygram4Mongo: So you can know what Amsterdam hookers are saying about you behind your back...


Then I would need to learn Vietnamese or Pilipino.
 
2014-02-10 11:25:48 AM
Funny how the Dutch were known as great explorers and merchants for centuries...sadly however, they were quite involved in slavery as well.
 
2014-02-10 11:29:04 AM

gopher321: Funny how the Dutch were known as great explorers and merchants for centuries...sadly however, they were quite involved in slavery as well.


Historically, the combination of great explorers and merchants usually resulted in the slave trade...
 
2014-02-10 11:33:53 AM
How about I use a language used by people who know how to wash their asses?
 
2014-02-10 11:42:10 AM

gopher321: Funny how the Dutch were known as great explorers and merchants for centuries...sadly however, they were quite involved in slavery as well.


I think it is impossible to find a civilization that didn't have slavery one point in their history.
 
2014-02-10 11:42:19 AM

vudukungfu: How about I use a language used by people who know how to wash their asses?


That would be be Japanese...
 
2014-02-10 11:47:20 AM
I've often thought of learning Spanish , we seem to have quite a few that speak that up here.
 
2014-02-10 11:49:23 AM
Just don't try to learn Arabic. Especially Arabic flashcards. In airports. With words like "b*mb" on the flashcards.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/12/24/us-airport-detention-decis io n-idUSBRE9BN0M320131224
 
2014-02-10 11:50:25 AM

Candygram4Mongo: vudukungfu: How about I use a language used by people who know how to wash their asses?

That would be be Japanese...


arigato
 
2014-02-10 11:51:04 AM

TheShavingofOccam123: Just don't try to learn Arabic


Not people that wash their asses.
 
2014-02-10 11:52:44 AM
Your blog sucks.
 
2014-02-10 11:58:08 AM
Well... The Dutch speak four languages and smoke marijuana.
 
2014-02-10 12:02:39 PM
I always liked the Netherlands. Having grown up in the small state of Connecticut, I feel a certain affinity for another small state with a rich history that tends to be ignored in favor of its larger neighbors.
 
2014-02-10 12:03:01 PM
IMO we've been taught to dismiss the Dutch in subtle ways ("going Dutch", "Dutch oven", silly stuff like that) because as a successor state of the British (essentially what the US is), we used to view the Dutch as a competitor in the colonization / Triangle Trade game.  However in the grand scheme of things the UK and the Dutch were more similar than they probably cared to admit -- both resisted Catholicism and the Habsburgs, both were very dedicated to ocean-going ventures, and both had very prominent financial sectors.
 
2014-02-10 12:03:06 PM
How about if you are an American and you work for Royal Dutch Shell and you are told that the only way you can truely climb the corporate ladder is to get an overseas posting in Holland, where speaking Dutch is required?

Is that a good enough reason?
 
2014-02-10 12:04:07 PM
I'd also add that both the UK and the Dutch in the 17th-18th centuries were far more democratic than most of their European counterparts.
 
2014-02-10 12:04:26 PM
I (native English speaker) working on my BA in German had to take a year of another Germanic language. The offering that year was Dutch (the language varied from year to year). I found it a fun language to learn, kind of in between English and German. Fun, but pointless, because every Nederlander I met knew all three languages already.
 
2014-02-10 12:05:28 PM

cman: Its because we are raised to be in awe of French and Roman cultures and history but are shown little of Dutch culture. If we were exposed to Dutch culture at a young age, maybe that would change minds.


Might have something to do with the Dutch being completely irrelevant. There's only 23 million Dutch speakers in the world, and it's only spoken in that one region of Europe and a handful of crappy little islands that the Dutch populated with slaves. Hell, at the rate their language is changing to be more like English and the number of Dutch speakers that also speak English, their language will be nothing but a historical curiosity a hundred years from now. The Dutch are nothing compared to the French or the Germans or the Spanish or the English. Hell, even French pales in "potential" and "relevance" to learning Chinese. You going to say the Dutch have a more extensive and relevant culture than the Chinese? I didn't think so. The Dutch could literally disappear tomorrow and the world would remain almost completely unaffected. The time when the "wooden shoe wearing blondies who decided to build their castles in a swamp" made an impact on the world is long since past, thanks in no small part to slavery becoming a faux pas. Now all they're are known for is sh*t porn, getting high, and lots of bicycles. There's no future in Dutch, learn about cultures that are relevant and learn a language that's useful.
 
2014-02-10 12:06:38 PM

balfourk: How about if you are an American and you work for Royal Dutch Shell and you are told that the only way you can truely climb the corporate ladder is to get an overseas posting in Holland, where speaking Dutch is required?

Is that a good enough reason?


Yeah, yeah. Just pump my gas already, pal.

Too bad self-serve pumps are against the law in NJ...
 
2014-02-10 12:06:42 PM

Arkanaut: IMO we've been taught to dismiss the Dutch in subtle ways ("going Dutch", "Dutch oven", silly stuff like that) because as a successor state of the British (essentially what the US is), we used to view the Dutch as a competitor in the colonization / Triangle Trade game.  However in the grand scheme of things the UK and the Dutch were more similar than they probably cared to admit -- both resisted Catholicism and the Habsburgs, both were very dedicated to ocean-going ventures, and both had very prominent financial sectors.


Well, the British had to import a Dutch King and Queen at one point, William of Orange and Mary.
 
2014-02-10 12:10:14 PM

vudukungfu: Candygram4Mongo: vudukungfu: How about I use a language used by people who know how to wash their asses?

That would be be Japanese...

arigato


bidet
 
2014-02-10 12:11:43 PM
www.quickmeme.com
 
2014-02-10 12:13:37 PM

simplicimus: Arkanaut: IMO we've been taught to dismiss the Dutch in subtle ways ("going Dutch", "Dutch oven", silly stuff like that) because as a successor state of the British (essentially what the US is), we used to view the Dutch as a competitor in the colonization / Triangle Trade game.  However in the grand scheme of things the UK and the Dutch were more similar than they probably cared to admit -- both resisted Catholicism and the Habsburgs, both were very dedicated to ocean-going ventures, and both had very prominent financial sectors.

Well, the British had to import a Dutch King and Queen at one point, William of Orange and Mary.


Yep, and the British fought against the Spanish Armada to help the Dutch secure their independence from Spain (in the oft-forgotten Eighty Years' War).
 
2014-02-10 12:15:00 PM
Arkanaut:  both resisted Catholicism

Everyone up to Henry VII - Catholic
Henry VIII - broke with Rome but Catholic in faith
Edward VI - Protestant
Mary I - Ardently Catholic - executed protestants including the bishop of London and the archbishop of Canterbury
Elizabeth I - Hedged bets and refused to pick a side
James I - Accidentally became King of England. Protestant.

Bit more complex than "resisted catholicism"
 
2014-02-10 12:16:30 PM
The point of learning dutch is so she pays her own way on a date.
 
2014-02-10 12:21:23 PM
Dutch is my second language.

I am totally fluent, and even speak it with a bit of my mom's Twente accent.

And yet the second i struggle for a vocab word, the person i'm speaking to switches over to English.  I have never met a Dutch person who didn't speak anywhere between three to six other languages.

Pointless.
 
2014-02-10 12:25:26 PM

Tigger: Arkanaut:  both resisted Catholicism

Everyone up to Henry VII - Catholic
Henry VIII - broke with Rome but Catholic in faith
Edward VI - Protestant
Mary I - Ardently Catholic - executed protestants including the bishop of London and the archbishop of Canterbury
Elizabeth I - Hedged bets and refused to pick a side
James I - Accidentally became King of England. Protestant.

Bit more complex than "resisted catholicism"


That was all in a relatively short time frame. Henry VIII simply wanted to keep Rome's hands out of his coffer. There's a by line about his marriage etc but I think it was more about the money. His Son Edward didn't last long, and Mary was Henry's daughter via his first wife  who, if I'm not mistaken, was Spanish royalty thus very Catholic.

So that waffling was really just the effect of getting that last vestige of Spanish collaboration out of the royal lineage. After that it was a no brainer to limit Rome's ability to meddle in English affairs.

/Neither English nor a historian.
 
2014-02-10 12:31:17 PM
Learning a language similar to your own is a good way to understand the nuances of your own. It would hurt no English speaker to learn Dutch.
 
2014-02-10 12:37:16 PM
I've found studying Deutch to be very interesting and rewarding.

i.imgur.com
 
2014-02-10 12:38:37 PM

Candygram4Mongo: So you can know what Amsterdam hookers are saying about you behind your back...


My impression is that of them are foreigners. i.e. Non-native Dutch speakers from the Eastern Bloc. So they are likely to talk behind your back in a third language.

That Guy Jeff: cman: Its because we are raised to be in awe of French and Roman cultures and history but are shown little of Dutch culture. If we were exposed to Dutch culture at a young age, maybe that would change minds.

Might have something to do with the Dutch being completely irrelevant. There's only 23 million Dutch speakers in the world, and it's only spoken in that one region of Europe and a handful of crappy little islands that the Dutch populated with slaves. Hell, at the rate their language is changing to be more like English and the number of Dutch speakers that also speak English, their language will be nothing but a historical curiosity a hundred years from now. The Dutch are nothing compared to the French or the Germans or the Spanish or the English. Hell, even French pales in "potential" and "relevance" to learning Chinese. You going to say the Dutch have a more extensive and relevant culture than the Chinese? I didn't think so. The Dutch could literally disappear tomorrow and the world would remain almost completely unaffected. The time when the "wooden shoe wearing blondies who decided to build their castles in a swamp" made an impact on the world is long since past, thanks in no small part to slavery becoming a faux pas. Now all they're are known for is sh*t porn, getting high, and lots of bicycles. There's no future in Dutch, learn about cultures that are relevant and learn a language that's useful.


I wouldn't say it is useless. People have this idea that the Dutch speakers are fluent in every language, but that is mostly only true in the big cities. If you go out into the villages in the countryside of Holland or Flanders you will find that not everyone speaks English (or even French) fluently. Dutch can be especially useful if you find yourself in a situation where you have to speak with children or the elderly.
 
2014-02-10 12:38:45 PM

Tigger: Elizabeth I - Hedged bets and refused to pick a side


Um...  the complete outlawing of the Catholic Church, the Recusancy Acts, and the executions of priests (especially Jesuits)?  Whole books have been written about the subject. She picked her side, she just chose her words carefully.  England at the time was going through a religious identity crisis (the north was still heavily Catholic in sentiment), and at the time the Crown had no real proper army.  One popular revolt and...  game over.
 
2014-02-10 12:40:40 PM

That Guy Jeff: cman: Its because we are raised to be in awe of French and Roman cultures and history but are shown little of Dutch culture. If we were exposed to Dutch culture at a young age, maybe that would change minds.

Might have something to do with the Dutch being completely irrelevant. There's only 23 million Dutch speakers in the world, and it's only spoken in that one region of Europe and a handful of crappy little islands that the Dutch populated with slaves. Hell, at the rate their language is changing to be more like English and the number of Dutch speakers that also speak English, their language will be nothing but a historical curiosity a hundred years from now. The Dutch are nothing compared to the French or the Germans or the Spanish or the English. Hell, even French pales in "potential" and "relevance" to learning Chinese. You going to say the Dutch have a more extensive and relevant culture than the Chinese? I didn't think so. The Dutch could literally disappear tomorrow and the world would remain almost completely unaffected. The time when the "wooden shoe wearing blondies who decided to build their castles in a swamp" made an impact on the world is long since past, thanks in no small part to slavery becoming a faux pas. Now all they're are known for is sh*t porn, getting high, and lots of bicycles. There's no future in Dutch, learn about cultures that are relevant and learn a language that's useful.


Grandpa? Grandpa? The war's over. We won, remember?
 
2014-02-10 12:52:19 PM

That Guy Jeff: cman: Its because we are raised to be in awe of French and Roman cultures and history but are shown little of Dutch culture. If we were exposed to Dutch culture at a young age, maybe that would change minds.

Might have something to do with the Dutch being completely irrelevant. There's only 23 million Dutch speakers in the world, and it's only spoken in that one region of Europe and a handful of crappy little islands that the Dutch populated with slaves. Hell, at the rate their language is changing to be more like English and the number of Dutch speakers that also speak English, their language will be nothing but a historical curiosity a hundred years from now. The Dutch are nothing compared to the French or the Germans or the Spanish or the English. Hell, even French pales in "potential" and "relevance" to learning Chinese. You going to say the Dutch have a more extensive and relevant culture than the Chinese? I didn't think so. The Dutch could literally disappear tomorrow and the world would remain almost completely unaffected. The time when the "wooden shoe wearing blondies who decided to build their castles in a swamp" made an impact on the world is long since past, thanks in no small part to slavery becoming a faux pas. Now all they're are known for is sh*t porn, getting high, and lots of bicycles. There's no future in Dutch, learn about cultures that are relevant and learn a language that's useful.


Definitely not irrelevant

Google Glorious Revolution. It is the reason why so many of our naval terms come from Dutch.
 
2014-02-10 12:57:17 PM

cman: Google Glorious Revolution. It is the reason why so many of our naval terms come from Dutch


For example, the Dutch Rudder
 
2014-02-10 01:02:10 PM

That Guy Jeff: cman: Its because we are raised to be in awe of French and Roman cultures and history but are shown little of Dutch culture. If we were exposed to Dutch culture at a young age, maybe that would change minds.

Might have something to do with the Dutch being completely irrelevant. There's only 23 million Dutch speakers in the world, and it's only spoken in that one region of Europe and a handful of crappy little islands that the Dutch populated with slaves. Hell, at the rate their language is changing to be more like English and the number of Dutch speakers that also speak English, their language will be nothing but a historical curiosity a hundred years from now. The Dutch are nothing compared to the French or the Germans or the Spanish or the English. Hell, even French pales in "potential" and "relevance" to learning Chinese. You going to say the Dutch have a more extensive and relevant culture than the Chinese? I didn't think so. The Dutch could literally disappear tomorrow and the world would remain almost completely unaffected. The time when the "wooden shoe wearing blondies who decided to build their castles in a swamp" made an impact on the world is long since past, thanks in no small part to slavery becoming a faux pas. Now all they're are known for is sh*t porn, getting high, and lots of bicycles. There's no future in Dutch, learn about cultures that are relevant and learn a language that's useful.


The fact you used Chinese as a language shows you are just ignorant. Next time use Mandarin or Standard Chinese.
 
2014-02-10 01:02:37 PM
Good for the writer. It's every English speaker's birthright to go to where the foreigners dwell and salad-toss their monkey jabber.
 
2014-02-10 01:04:52 PM

That Guy Jeff: Might have something to do with the Dutch being completely irrelevant. There's only 23 million Dutch speakers in the world, and it's only spoken in that one region of Europe and a handful of crappy little islands that the Dutch populated with slaves. Hell, at the rate their language is changing to be more like English and the number of Dutch speakers that also speak English, their language will be nothing but a historical curiosity a hundred years from now. The Dutch are nothing compared to the French or the Germans or the Spanish or the English. Hell, even French pales in "potential" and "relevance" to learning Chinese. You going to say the Dutch have a more extensive and relevant culture than the Chinese? I didn't think so. The Dutch could literally disappear tomorrow and the world would remain almost completely unaffected. The time when the "wooden shoe wearing blondies who decided to build their castles in a swamp" made an impact on the world is long since past, thanks in no small part to slavery becoming a faux pas. Now all they're are known for is sh*t porn, getting high, and lots of bicycles. There's no future in Dutch, learn about cultures that are relevant and learn a language that's useful.


i62.tinypic.com
 
2014-02-10 01:06:01 PM

Hal5423: wouldn't say it is useless. People have this idea that the Dutch speakers are fluent in every language, but that is mostly only true in the big cities. If you go out into the villages in the countryside of Holland or Flanders you will find that not everyone speaks English (or even French) fluently. Dutch can be especially useful if you find yourself in a situation where you have to speak with children or the elderly.


I've never had an interaction (even in a small town) where that was true.

Even my cousin's kids (who were about 8 or 9) could manage English.

I do find tat if i'm thinking in Dutch, my thinking ... changes.  There's something about a language that uses diminutives and Subject-Object-Verb sentence constructions that makes you think a little differently. But that's it as far as utility goes -- and it's highly personal in any case.
 
2014-02-10 01:09:57 PM
I can think of a few reasons...

img835.imageshack.us
 
2014-02-10 01:13:43 PM

DrunkWithImpotence: Tigger: Elizabeth I - Hedged bets and refused to pick a side

Um...  the complete outlawing of the Catholic Church, the Recusancy Acts, and the executions of priests (especially Jesuits)?  Whole books have been written about the subject. She picked her side, she just chose her words carefully.  England at the time was going through a religious identity crisis (the north was still heavily Catholic in sentiment), and at the time the Crown had no real proper army.  One popular revolt and...  game over.


Add to that Mary, Queen of Scots, Queen regent of Scotland and wife of the "Dauphin" and Catholic once claimed England's throne.  Elizabeth had her imprisoned then executed in 1587.

Philip II of Spain declared her a heretic and sent the Armada against her, in response of Elizabeth support for the Dutch Revolt.

That's how you take care of rogue family members, before retraining orders were invented.
 
2014-02-10 01:18:28 PM

cman: That Guy Jeff: cman: Its because we are raised to be in awe of French and Roman cultures and history but are shown little of Dutch culture. If we were exposed to Dutch culture at a young age, maybe that would change minds.

Might have something to do with the Dutch being completely irrelevant. There's only 23 million Dutch speakers in the world, and it's only spoken in that one region of Europe and a handful of crappy little islands that the Dutch populated with slaves. Hell, at the rate their language is changing to be more like English and the number of Dutch speakers that also speak English, their language will be nothing but a historical curiosity a hundred years from now. The Dutch are nothing compared to the French or the Germans or the Spanish or the English. Hell, even French pales in "potential" and "relevance" to learning Chinese. You going to say the Dutch have a more extensive and relevant culture than the Chinese? I didn't think so. The Dutch could literally disappear tomorrow and the world would remain almost completely unaffected. The time when the "wooden shoe wearing blondies who decided to build their castles in a swamp" made an impact on the world is long since past, thanks in no small part to slavery becoming a faux pas. Now all they're are known for is sh*t porn, getting high, and lots of bicycles. There's no future in Dutch, learn about cultures that are relevant and learn a language that's useful.

Definitely not irrelevant

Google Glorious Revolution. It is the reason why so many of our naval terms come from Dutch.


If one has to learn a new language, Dutch probably isn't the best one. There's a limited market in jobs and it's only spoken in a few countries as the primary language. Opportunity cost of Dutch versus Spanish/German/French/Mandarin/Arabic/English is pretty high. I speak English and German, so Dutch probably wouldn't be too hard for me -- I can understand the gist of a dutch article if you put one in front of me as many words similar to the English or German equivalent.
 
2014-02-10 01:28:06 PM
The dutch lady who finished just out of the medals (5th maybe) in the speed skating was all kinds of good looking. She could break me with those awesome thigh muscles. It would be worth it.
 
2014-02-10 01:34:50 PM

Arkanaut: IMO we've been taught to dismiss the Dutch in subtle ways ("going Dutch", "Dutch oven", silly stuff like that) because as a successor state of the British (essentially what the US is), we used to view the Dutch as a competitor in the colonization / Triangle Trade game.  However in the grand scheme of things the UK and the Dutch were more similar than they probably cared to admit -- both resisted Catholicism and the Habsburgs, both were very dedicated to ocean-going ventures, and both had very prominent financial sectors.


The United States can only be considered a successor to the British is because the Brits went to war with the Dutch over colonies, won, and took them as reparations, not the least of which is its largest city we affectionately call New York rather than its original moniker New Amsterdam.  The similarities between the two countries led to the colonization of certain parts of Africa, not the least of which is South Africa, where the current language is an amalgamation of English and Dutch.


Out of curiousity, who here roots for the New Amsterdam Knickerbockers?
 
2014-02-10 01:46:44 PM
During my stay in Amsterdam, I did not encounter a single person who could not speak enough English to be understood. And I encountered more than a few who spoke Americanized English well enough to be my next-door neighbor.

/lovely town, btw
 
2014-02-10 01:46:57 PM

harleyquinnical: Arkanaut: IMO we've been taught to dismiss the Dutch in subtle ways ("going Dutch", "Dutch oven", silly stuff like that) because as a successor state of the British (essentially what the US is), we used to view the Dutch as a competitor in the colonization / Triangle Trade game.  However in the grand scheme of things the UK and the Dutch were more similar than they probably cared to admit -- both resisted Catholicism and the Habsburgs, both were very dedicated to ocean-going ventures, and both had very prominent financial sectors.

The United States can only be considered a successor to the British is because the Brits went to war with the Dutch over colonies, won, and took them as reparations, not the least of which is its largest city we affectionately call New York rather than its original moniker New Amsterdam.  The similarities between the two countries led to the colonization of certain parts of Africa, not the least of which is South Africa, where the current language is an amalgamation of English and Dutch.


Out of curiousity, who here roots for the New Amsterdam Knickerbockers?


*shamefully raises hands*


Norfolking Chance: That Guy Jeff: cman: Its because we are raised to be in awe of French and Roman cultures and history but are shown little of Dutch culture. If we were exposed to Dutch culture at a young age, maybe that would change minds.

Might have something to do with the Dutch being completely irrelevant. There's only 23 million Dutch speakers in the world, and it's only spoken in that one region of Europe and a handful of crappy little islands that the Dutch populated with slaves. Hell, at the rate their language is changing to be more like English and the number of Dutch speakers that also speak English, their language will be nothing but a historical curiosity a hundred years from now. The Dutch are nothing compared to the French or the Germans or the Spanish or the English. Hell, even French pales in "potential" and "relevance" to learning Chinese. You going to say the Dutch have a more extensive and relevant culture than the Chinese? I didn't think so. The Dutch could literally disappear tomorrow and the world would remain almost completely unaffected. The time when the "wooden shoe wearing blondies who decided to build their castles in a swamp" made an impact on the world is long since past, thanks in no small part to slavery becoming a faux pas. Now all they're are known for is sh*t porn, getting high, and lots of bicycles. There's no future in Dutch, learn about cultures that are relevant and learn a language that's useful.

The fact you used Chinese as a language shows you are just ignorant. Next time use Mandarin or Standard Chinese.


What are ya, some kind of linguist?
 
2014-02-10 01:48:44 PM

cman: Google Glorious Revolution. It is the reason why so many of our naval terms come from Dutch.


Really? Which ones?

By the way I love the fact that we're having a thread about 16th-17th century European history.  This is why I joined Fark.
 
2014-02-10 01:53:54 PM

Arkanaut: What are ya, some kind of linguist?


They're probably just mad they can't smoke marijuana while learning for languages, like the Dutch can.
 
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