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(AZCentral)   Principal removes 'Things I Have to Tell You: Poems and Writing by Teenage Girls' from the library because it depicts the euphoric feelings of smoking crack. "It didn't point out that she might have died of a heart attack or become a sex slave"   (azcentral.com) divider line 66
    More: Interesting, Stapley, Mesa's Stapley Junior High School, heart attacks, banned books, American Library Association, poems, smoking  
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2352 clicks; posted to Main » on 08 Feb 2014 at 8:28 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-02-08 08:31:32 PM  
Also didn't point out that she could become the mayor of D.C.
 
2014-02-08 08:33:13 PM  

ArcadianRefugee: Also didn't point out that she could become the mayor of D.C.


I thought Toronto's mayor was a dude
 
2014-02-08 08:35:13 PM  

ArcadianRefugee: Also didn't point out that she could become the mayor of D.C.


Or Mayor of Toronto.
 
2014-02-08 08:36:13 PM  
So, this is not seen through the third eye?
 
2014-02-08 08:42:40 PM  
Those effects only result from marijuana use.
 
2014-02-08 08:43:52 PM  
A librarian friend once had a group of parents complain about a YA novel because two characters had sex (it took place "off camera"), and it didn't portray the risk of teen pregnancy. The characters were both female.
 
2014-02-08 08:43:59 PM  
What subby left out is that it was a junior high school.

I'm sure that there are plenty of folks who are comfortable with their 14-year-olds reading this, but that's a parental decision...not something that a junior HS should offer up in their library. I can't wait for the crusaders who say OMG BOOK BANNING HITLER
 
2014-02-08 08:47:08 PM  

ArcadianRefugee: Also didn't point out that she could become the mayor of D.C.


Or that sometimes biatches will set you up.
 
2014-02-08 08:49:21 PM  

oh_please: I'm sure that there are plenty of folks who are comfortable with their 14-year-olds reading this, but that's a parental decision...not something that a junior HS should offer up in their library. I can't wait for the crusaders who say OMG BOOK BANNING HITLER


Yes, because it's the job of schools to shelter students and make sure they don't get any message except that DRUGS ARE BAD. That's been shown to work out really well.
 
2014-02-08 08:49:26 PM  

oh_please: What subby left out is that it was a junior high school.

I'm sure that there are plenty of folks who are comfortable with their 14-year-olds reading this, but that's a parental decision...not something that a junior HS should offer up in their library. I can't wait for the crusaders who say OMG BOOK BANNING HITLER




Banning books makes kids more likely to read the book. If the kid can understand the words, she should be able to read the book.

I read Steinbeck's "The Red Pony" when I was 8 and Erica Jong's " Fear of Flying" when I was 10, but I never had or played video games of any sort. We were too poor for a Nintendo System* or anything like that.

I'm ok. Neither of these books was "Appropriate" for my age.

*off my lawn.
 
2014-02-08 08:54:50 PM  
Nothing says 'poetry' like a parental discretionary warning written in iambic pentameter.
 
2014-02-08 09:00:39 PM  

what_now: oh_please: What subby left out is that it was a junior high school.

I'm sure that there are plenty of folks who are comfortable with their 14-year-olds reading this, but that's a parental decision...not something that a junior HS should offer up in their library. I can't wait for the crusaders who say OMG BOOK BANNING HITLER

Banning books makes kids more likely to read the book. If the kid can understand the words, she should be able to read the book.

I read Steinbeck's "The Red Pony" when I was 8 and Erica Jong's " Fear of Flying" when I was 10, but I never had or played video games of any sort. We were too poor for a Nintendo System* or anything like that.

I'm ok. Neither of these books was "Appropriate" for my age.

*off my lawn.


Well, you were mature enough to handle those books. You had parents who taught you to read, and taught you to think about what you read. You're a lot luckier than the average person.

Your experience has nothing to do with what a public junior HS library has to deal with.
 
2014-02-08 09:01:56 PM  

oh_please: What subby left out is that it was a junior high school.

I'm sure that there are plenty of folks who are comfortable with their 14-year-olds reading this, but that's a parental decision...not something that a junior HS should offer up in their library. I can't wait for the crusaders who say OMG BOOK BANNING HITLER


God forbid we educate our kids. Isn't that what school is for? I suppose you think certain subjects should only be handled by parents, or at least with parental approval. Where do you draw the line? Is it okay for schools to teach the quadratic equation without parental permission?

or the short version: fark off and die.
 
2014-02-08 09:02:32 PM  
Sorry to wake you.
I forgot to tell you something.
The things I tell you will not be wrong.
 
2014-02-08 09:03:21 PM  

what_now: oh_please: What subby left out is that it was a junior high school.

I'm sure that there are plenty of folks who are comfortable with their 14-year-olds reading this, but that's a parental decision...not something that a junior HS should offer up in their library. I can't wait for the crusaders who say OMG BOOK BANNING HITLER

Banning books makes kids more likely to read the book. If the kid can understand the words, she should be able to read the book.

I read Steinbeck's "The Red Pony" when I was 8 and Erica Jong's " Fear of Flying" when I was 10, but I never had or played video games of any sort. We were too poor for a Nintendo System* or anything like that.

I'm ok. Neither of these books was "Appropriate" for my age.

*off my lawn.


Read Last Stand of the DNA Cowboys right around that age as well. There is a chapter in the book when the characters are traveling from one planet to another that has a pretty graphic gay robot sex scene. It didn't make me want to have gay robot sex.
 
2014-02-08 09:04:19 PM  

oh_please: What subby left out is that it was a junior high school.

I'm sure that there are plenty of folks who are comfortable with their 14-year-olds reading this, but that's a parental decision...not something that a junior HS should offer up in their library. I can't wait for the crusaders who say OMG BOOK BANNING HITLER


OMG BOOK BANNING HITLER

(am i doing it right?)
 
2014-02-08 09:04:41 PM  

oh_please: What subby left out is that it was a junior high school.

I'm sure that there are plenty of folks who are comfortable with their 14-year-olds reading this, but that's a parental decision...not something that a junior HS should offer up in their library. I can't wait for the crusaders who say OMG BOOK BANNING HITLER


junior high school? like middle school?

read plenty of stuff like that when I was in middle school in the mid 80's, probably worse.. Crack didn't become a thing until the 90's mind you but I read plenty of hippy trash literature that was in available in my reading and literature classes and the actual school library.

of course, different time and place, I get ya.. thing is... all these helicopter parents? they are my age brackets contemporaries.. all those 30 to 50 something assholes are the assholes I grew up with and we always joked that our kids wouldn't be able to get shiat over us because we went through it ourselves and we would be able to recognize the signs of their bootlicious drug fueled rampages.

in our adolescent fantasies, we liked to imagine that we would be cool and allow the kids to explore what would a normal way of growing up, only stepping in to provide personal anecdotes and advice based on our own upbringing and life's experiences..
 and you know? most of us are probably doing just that..


but that doesn't sell headlines.. we need to scare old people to buy newspapers, and keep the easily frightened on their toes..


I didn't get to have kids, it wasn't for lack of trying, just happenstance along the way, but If I did get a chance to have a varmint or five.. I like to think I wouldn't hide them from any regular world shiat
 
2014-02-08 09:11:15 PM  
Removing controversial poetry from a library isn't normal. But in junior high school it is.
 
2014-02-08 09:25:36 PM  
Wow, if I was trolling, my boat would be full by now. I'm not, let me try to explain.

This is a public school. First of all, they can't appear to promote drug use (I know this isn't promoting drug use). Second, there are plenty of families out there who would take issue with their 14 year old son/daughter reading a book about crack that they checked out from their JUNIOR HS library. We can talk about reading what we want all day long, and I'm all for it...but the sad fact is, a lot of parents can't or won't take the time to interact with their children and discuss what they've read.

Everyone here who's blasted me so far has said, "well I read xxx at 10 years old", that's because you had people in your life who taught you how to read and think. That ain't public school.
 
2014-02-08 09:26:45 PM  

oh_please: what_now: oh_please: What subby left out is that it was a junior high school.

I'm sure that there are plenty of folks who are comfortable with their 14-year-olds reading this, but that's a parental decision...not something that a junior HS should offer up in their library. I can't wait for the crusaders who say OMG BOOK BANNING HITLER

Banning books makes kids more likely to read the book. If the kid can understand the words, she should be able to read the book.

I read Steinbeck's "The Red Pony" when I was 8 and Erica Jong's " Fear of Flying" when I was 10, but I never had or played video games of any sort. We were too poor for a Nintendo System* or anything like that.

I'm ok. Neither of these books was "Appropriate" for my age.

*off my lawn.

Well, you were mature enough to handle those books. You had parents who taught you to read, and taught you to think about what you read. You're a lot luckier than the average person.

Your experience has nothing to do with what a public junior HS library has to deal with.




I was a public school student. I got these books from the public library, and while I wish I could say my parents knew what is was doing, they were both working full time by then, and assumed I was fine.
 
2014-02-08 09:27:39 PM  
Everything has to be a goddamn After School Special these days. Sheesh.  IF YOU TAKE LSD YOU'LL THINK YOU CAN FLY AND JUMP OFF A ROOF!
 
2014-02-08 09:29:23 PM  
Also by 14, these kids have seen every manner of deviant porn imaginable.
 
2014-02-08 09:36:07 PM  

what_now: oh_please: what_now: oh_please: What subby left out is that it was a junior high school.

I'm sure that there are plenty of folks who are comfortable with their 14-year-olds reading this, but that's a parental decision...not something that a junior HS should offer up in their library. I can't wait for the crusaders who say OMG BOOK BANNING HITLER

Banning books makes kids more likely to read the book. If the kid can understand the words, she should be able to read the book.

I read Steinbeck's "The Red Pony" when I was 8 and Erica Jong's " Fear of Flying" when I was 10, but I never had or played video games of any sort. We were too poor for a Nintendo System* or anything like that.

I'm ok. Neither of these books was "Appropriate" for my age.

*off my lawn.

Well, you were mature enough to handle those books. You had parents who taught you to read, and taught you to think about what you read. You're a lot luckier than the average person.

Your experience has nothing to do with what a public junior HS library has to deal with.

I was a public school student. I got these books from the public library, and while I wish I could say my parents knew what is was doing, they were both working full time by then, and assumed I was fine.


Evidently your parents knew what is was doing, if you could read those books on your own at 8 and 10. Give them some credit.

There's a difference between a public library and a school library. Don't be disingenuous.
 
2014-02-08 09:46:52 PM  

oh_please: There's a difference between a public library and a school library


Of course there is.  One's a place for bums to wash up, and one's a really bad place to hide.
 
2014-02-08 09:46:59 PM  
Don't have to burn the books, just remove them.
 
2014-02-08 09:48:18 PM  
It's not like the book is A Beginner's Guide to Crack Smoking - it's a book of poetry written by teens, aimed at teens. It would do sheltered suburbanite kids some good to recognize that other kids have different experiences. Wouldn't this have been a wonderful opportunity to discuss why a disadvantaged youth might turn to drugs as an escape from their reality, and what could be done to provide them with other options?

But no, better to clutch those pearls and wail about the children.
 
2014-02-08 09:49:39 PM  

oh_please: Wow, if I was trolling, my boat would be full by now. I'm not, let me try to explain.

This is a public school. First of all, they can't appear to promote drug use (I know this isn't promoting drug use). Second, there are plenty of families out there who would take issue with their 14 year old son/daughter reading a book about crack that they checked out from their JUNIOR HS library. We can talk about reading what we want all day long, and I'm all for it...but the sad fact is, a lot of parents can't or won't take the time to interact with their children and discuss what they've read.

Everyone here who's blasted me so far has said, "well I read xxx at 10 years old", that's because you had people in your life who taught you how to read and think. That ain't public school.


Are you smoking crack? I went to public school, and in the library they had fiction with sex, drugs, suicide, witches, murder, and all sorts of themes. My parents never told me what to think or how to interpret what I read unless I brought it up. The idea of them keeping up with every book I read would have been absurd, of course.
 
2014-02-08 09:52:28 PM  

oh_please: What subby left out is that it was a junior high school.

I'm sure that there are plenty of folks who are comfortable with their 14-year-olds reading this, but that's a parental decision...not something that a junior HS should offer up in their library. I can't wait for the crusaders who say OMG BOOK BANNING HITLER


We had "Go Ask Alice" in my junior high school library. Which was a public school. I read it at age 11.

My friend's mother forbade her to read "The Exorcist", so naturally we read it. We were 10.
 
2014-02-08 09:53:34 PM  
I don't see why public schools have any books other than textbooks or assigned reading.

Kids can read for fun on their own time.

And the textbooks assigned books should be agreed upon by all the parents.  A school shouldn't teach things that go against a parent's values.
 
2014-02-08 09:57:02 PM  

sendtodave: I don't see why public schools have any books other than textbooks or assigned reading.

Kids can read for fun on their own time.

And the textbooks assigned books should be agreed upon by all the parents.  A school shouldn't teach things that go against a parent's values.




1/10
 
2014-02-08 10:03:52 PM  

oh_please: what_now: oh_please: what_now: oh_please: What subby left out is that it was a junior high school.

I'm sure that there are plenty of folks who are comfortable with their 14-year-olds reading this, but that's a parental decision...not something that a junior HS should offer up in their library. I can't wait for the crusaders who say OMG BOOK BANNING HITLER

Banning books makes kids more likely to read the book. If the kid can understand the words, she should be able to read the book.

I read Steinbeck's "The Red Pony" when I was 8 and Erica Jong's " Fear of Flying" when I was 10, but I never had or played video games of any sort. We were too poor for a Nintendo System* or anything like that.

I'm ok. Neither of these books was "Appropriate" for my age.

*off my lawn.

Well, you were mature enough to handle those books. You had parents who taught you to read, and taught you to think about what you read. You're a lot luckier than the average person.

Your experience has nothing to do with what a public junior HS library has to deal with.

I was a public school student. I got these books from the public library, and while I wish I could say my parents knew what is was doing, they were both working full time by then, and assumed I was fine.

Evidently your parents knew what is was doing, if you could read those books on your own at 8 and 10. Give them some credit.

There's a difference between a public library and a school library. Don't be disingenuous.




I give my parents a lot of credit- because they gave me credit. As should the parents of these children.

My hometown was tiny. The school library had 12 books, the public library 13. I was a voracious reader and very quickly outgrew the children's and young adult section, and successfully petitioned for an unrestricted library card as a child.

My parents are not well educated or professional people. They did, however, put a lot of value in the education that they were not able to receive and would never have out restrictions on the movies we saw, the music we listened to, or the books we read.

And all three of us turned out fine. Give kids some credit. They'll figure out how to assimilate books.
 
2014-02-08 10:11:50 PM  

oh_please: Wow, if I was trolling, my boat would be full by now. I'm not, let me try to explain.

This is a public school. First of all, they can't appear to promote drug use (I know this isn't promoting drug use). Second, there are plenty of families out there who would take issue with their 14 year old son/daughter reading a book about crack that they checked out from their JUNIOR HS library. We can talk about reading what we want all day long, and I'm all for it...but the sad fact is, a lot of parents can't or won't take the time to interact with their children and discuss what they've read.

Everyone here who's blasted me so far has said, "well I read xxx at 10 years old", that's because you had people in your life who taught you how to read and think. That ain't public school.


So is your thesis that kids need to be protected from dangerous ideas and scary concepts in case their PARENTS aren't doing a good job of teaching them to read and think? Or that it's the parents' job to filter the kids' input from ideas they find contrary to what they find acceptable? Or that idea X is not okay at age 14 (in middle school) but would be fine at age 15 (in high school) regardless of what the parents think?

What is your point here?
 
2014-02-08 10:20:15 PM  
I think you'd need crack to actually sit through the average teenage girl's poetry.
 
2014-02-08 10:28:19 PM  

SearchN: what_now: oh_please: What subby left out is that it was a junior high school.

I'm sure that there are plenty of folks who are comfortable with their 14-year-olds reading this, but that's a parental decision...not something that a junior HS should offer up in their library. I can't wait for the crusaders who say OMG BOOK BANNING HITLER

Banning books makes kids more likely to read the book. If the kid can understand the words, she should be able to read the book.

I read Steinbeck's "The Red Pony" when I was 8 and Erica Jong's " Fear of Flying" when I was 10, but I never had or played video games of any sort. We were too poor for a Nintendo System* or anything like that.

I'm ok. Neither of these books was "Appropriate" for my age.

*off my lawn.

Read Last Stand of the DNA Cowboys right around that age as well. There is a chapter in the book when the characters are traveling from one planet to another that has a pretty graphic gay robot sex scene. It didn't make me want to have gay robot sex.


But I bet it didn't NOT make you want to have gay robot sex

/fap
 
2014-02-08 10:32:43 PM  

sendtodave: I don't see why public schools have any books other than textbooks or assigned reading.

Kids can read for fun on their own time.

And the textbooks assigned books should be agreed upon by all the parents.  A school shouldn't teach things that go against a parent's values.


That's three opinions you stated; and three opinions you got completely wrong.
 
2014-02-08 10:33:49 PM  
Now o have to wonder if any public libraries have a copy of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion or the Turner Diaries. That's some good light reading for impressionable unsupervised youth
 
2014-02-08 10:45:01 PM  

AdrienVeidt: sendtodave: I don't see why public schools have any books other than textbooks or assigned reading.

Kids can read for fun on their own time.

And the textbooks assigned books should be agreed upon by all the parents.  A school shouldn't teach things that go against a parent's values.

That's three opinions you stated; and three opinions you got completely wrong.


Opinions can't be wrong.

And that's a fact.
 
2014-02-08 10:59:41 PM  
I see the "OMG it's a book and therefor needs to be read!" crowd is here. 

 Look, not all books are worth the paper they're printed on. Just because someone has an opinion on something and wants to be "artistic" with it, doesn't mean they have a good or well thought out opinion. School resources are limited and they *should* be picky about the books they decide to put on their shelves. They *should* be looking for books that are well written, appropriate for the age level that will be reading it, and cover the topic in a mature and educated matter.

 If this book doesn't make the cut, well, sucks to be the author. They need to write a better book.
 
2014-02-08 11:06:03 PM  

oh_please: Wow, if I was trolling, my boat would be full by now. I'm not, let me try to explain.

This is a public school. First of all, they can't appear to promote drug use (I know this isn't promoting drug use). Second, there are plenty of families out there who would take issue with their 14 year old son/daughter reading a book about crack that they checked out from their JUNIOR HS library. We can talk about reading what we want all day long, and I'm all for it...but the sad fact is, a lot of parents can't or won't take the time to interact with their children and discuss what they've read.

Everyone here who's blasted me so far has said, "well I read xxx at 10 years old", that's because you had people in your life who taught you how to read and think. That ain't public school.


If the parents won't or can't then the schools must. They will be exposed to it if they aren't already. Better to encounter it in literature and assimilate it there first than confront it in real life without prior understanding of it.
 
2014-02-08 11:11:56 PM  
I was a voracious reader as a child. I was the kid who, when asked what I wanted for Christmas or my birthday, the answer was always "Books!" There are a LOT of things I think my folks should have done different in raising me, but the one thing that they got right was that they never stifled my desire to read. With one single exception, my mother never told me that I couldn't read this book or that book. The one exception was  Raven: The Untold Story of the Rev. Jim Jones and His People. She didn't want me reading it for some reason, and I was cool with it.

I've tried to be the same way. You want to read? Great. As long as it isn't something that encourages you to go out and hurt yourself or somebody else, read what you like and if you have any questions about what you've read, you can always come ask me.

My oldest reads the same books we do and my youngest gets so excited - like Christmas morning excited - whenever the school book fair rolls around each year. He's reading The Outsiders right now and loving it (he's in 7th grade).


Is "Are You There, God? It's Me, Margaret" still in the libraries? I remember that was controversial when I was a kid because - GASP - it talked about girls getting their periods (ew ew ew ewwwwwwwwwwwww!).
 
2014-02-08 11:18:22 PM  

Foxxinnia: Nothing says 'poetry' like a parental discretionary warning written in iambic pentameter.



That is the ONLY thing that I remember about grade 12 English class. Well, that and apparently there is a rape scene in Tess Of The d'Ubervilles.
 
2014-02-08 11:20:42 PM  

cuzsis: I see the "OMG it's a book and therefor needs to be read!" crowd is here. 

 Look, not all books are worth the paper they're printed on. Just because someone has an opinion on something and wants to be "artistic" with it, doesn't mean they have a good or well thought out opinion. School resources are limited and they *should* be picky about the books they decide to put on their shelves. They *should* be looking for books that are well written, appropriate for the age level that will be reading it, and cover the topic in a mature and educated matter.

 If this book doesn't make the cut, well, sucks to be the author. They need to write a better book.


I agree with part of what you said. Not all literary efforts are diamonds. Some are destined to remain lumps of coal. But you take books like "Go Ask Alice", "To Kill a Mockingbird", "A Wrinkle in Time", any of the "Harry Potter" books, etc... they are solid books that are worth kids taking the time to read. I realize that is just my opinion. But so is this - pay attention to what your kids are reading. If you don't want them reading something, fine. That's your perogative. But don't try to dictate what other parents should or shouldn't let their kids read just b/c you've got a burr up your ass.

/ and by 'your' I mean the complaining parents
 
2014-02-08 11:22:04 PM  

kling_klang_bed: I think you'd need crack to actually sit through the average teenage girl's poetry.


I wonder how many times the average person can sit through the umpteenth iteration of "Ode to Justin Bieber" before they get all stabby...
 
2014-02-08 11:26:00 PM  

cuzsis: I see the "OMG it's a book and therefor needs to be read!" crowd is here. 

 Look, not all books are worth the paper they're printed on. Just because someone has an opinion on something and wants to be "artistic" with it, doesn't mean they have a good or well thought out opinion. School resources are limited and they *should* be picky about the books they decide to put on their shelves. They *should* be looking for books that are well written, appropriate for the age level that will be reading it, and cover the topic in a mature and educated matter.

 If this book doesn't make the cut, well, sucks to be the author. They need to write a better book.


It's good to know that you're so adamantly anti-literature, and want to use your own tunnel-visioned ideas to determine, better than actual educators, what middle schoolers should be reading. At least you admit your anti-lit stance.
 
433 [TotalFark]
2014-02-08 11:32:05 PM  
Why, I walked uphill in the humidity both ways en route to the local library where I taught myself to read using the great Russian authors and the patience of a gargoyle.

Anyone that can't motivate themselves in the fashion that I did ought to drop out of grade school and shovel up some ditches.
 
2014-02-08 11:33:20 PM  

digitalrain: kling_klang_bed: I think you'd need crack to actually sit through the average teenage girl's poetry.

I wonder how many times the average person can sit through the umpteenth iteration of "Ode to Justin Bieber" before they get all stabby...


Or self-cutty.
 
2014-02-08 11:39:17 PM  

Gyrfalcon: What is your point here?

My original point WAS that poetry about sex and drug use wouldn't fly in a public junior HS library, because of it's controversial content. I thought it would be obvious to everyone. I even made an over-the-top joke that I couldn't wait for people to compare this to Hitler and book burning.

Sure enough, everyone took me at my word, and lost their collective minds, ranging from bragging about all the sex books they read at a young age, to literally wishing me dead.

The thing is, I tried to be nice early on and discuss, but the FARK BrigadeTM was having none of that.

I'm torn...should I be offended at all the pitchforks and torches, or should I be laughing my ass off?
 
2014-02-08 11:48:06 PM  

oh_please: Gyrfalcon: What is your point here?
My original point WAS that poetry about sex and drug use wouldn't fly in a public junior HS library, because of it's controversial content. I thought it would be obvious to everyone. I even made an over-the-top joke that I couldn't wait for people to compare this to Hitler and book burning.

Sure enough, everyone took me at my word, and lost their collective minds, ranging from bragging about all the sex books they read at a young age, to literally wishing me dead.

The thing is, I tried to be nice early on and discuss, but the FARK BrigadeTM was having none of that.

I'm torn...should I be offended at all the pitchforks and torches, or should I be laughing my ass off?


Your original point is also bullshiat. What backward school did you go to?
 
2014-02-08 11:59:29 PM  

Abacus9: oh_please: Gyrfalcon: What is your point here?
My original point WAS that poetry about sex and drug use wouldn't fly in a public junior HS library, because of it's controversial content. I thought it would be obvious to everyone. I even made an over-the-top joke that I couldn't wait for people to compare this to Hitler and book burning.

Sure enough, everyone took me at my word, and lost their collective minds, ranging from bragging about all the sex books they read at a young age, to literally wishing me dead.

The thing is, I tried to be nice early on and discuss, but the FARK BrigadeTM was having none of that.

I'm torn...should I be offended at all the pitchforks and torches, or should I be laughing my ass off?

Your original point is also bullshiat. What backward school did you go to?


Aren't you the guy who told me to fark off and die earlier? Even though I've never seen you nor talked to you? Nice.
 
2014-02-09 12:23:00 AM  

oh_please: Abacus9: oh_please: Gyrfalcon: What is your point here?
My original point WAS that poetry about sex and drug use wouldn't fly in a public junior HS library, because of it's controversial content. I thought it would be obvious to everyone. I even made an over-the-top joke that I couldn't wait for people to compare this to Hitler and book burning.

Sure enough, everyone took me at my word, and lost their collective minds, ranging from bragging about all the sex books they read at a young age, to literally wishing me dead.

The thing is, I tried to be nice early on and discuss, but the FARK BrigadeTM was having none of that.

I'm torn...should I be offended at all the pitchforks and torches, or should I be laughing my ass off?

Your original point is also bullshiat. What backward school did you go to?

Aren't you the guy who told me to fark off and die earlier? Even though I've never seen you nor talked to you? Nice.


At least I didn't say "OMG BOOK BANNING HITLER".

Yes, the fact that you put parental considerations above education, can't explain why, and preemptively dismiss anyone who disagrees with you as Godwinning means you are a bad person who can fark off and die.
 
2014-02-09 12:30:38 AM  
Pfft... middle school was when we got all the controversial books for teenagers. That's when kids start thinking for themselves. Letting them read about such topics in frank ways is vastly better than leaving it to them to figure it out on their own, which they will.
Back then, I was reading books full of explicit sex, which nobody suspected because they were science fiction. It wasn't until I was in high school that I got my hands on a REAL controversial book - The Last Temptation of Christ.
 
2014-02-09 12:50:36 AM  

oh_please: I'm sure that there are plenty of folks who are comfortable with their 14-year-olds reading this, but that's a parental decision...not something that a junior HS should offer up in their library.


Yeah, I consider myself a first amendment fundamentalist, and I can't work up much outrage over this.
 
2014-02-09 01:05:15 AM  
But whar is da crack pipe vending machine?!

I thought thar'd be a...?

/dammit!
 
2014-02-09 01:28:58 AM  

oh_please: Gyrfalcon: What is your point here?
My original point WAS that poetry about sex and drug use wouldn't fly in a public junior HS library, because of it's controversial content. I thought it would be obvious to everyone. I even made an over-the-top joke that I couldn't wait for people to compare this to Hitler and book burning.

Sure enough, everyone took me at my word, and lost their collective minds, ranging from bragging about all the sex books they read at a young age, to literally wishing me dead.

The thing is, I tried to be nice early on and discuss, but the FARK BrigadeTM was having none of that.

I'm torn...should I be offended at all the pitchforks and torches, or should I be laughing my ass off?


Well, then, your original point was completely wrong, because public junior high school libraries are rife with controversial content. The problem is that regardless of whatever you call "controversial" there's always someone willing and able to set the bar even lower, until Beatrix Potter books would be too controversial for some people. My rebuttal to your argument was that in my very own public school junior high, there were multiple copies of the exceptionally controversial (for the time) (forty years ago now) "Go Ask Alice", "That Was Then, This is Now", Judy Blume's books on periods and wet dreams, and the early 70's drugs-are-bad books. So you have to expect that people are going to come back on you saying WHAT?!? when you make the somewhat naive comment that a book about drugs and sex "won't fly" in a junior high school library, given that most of us grew up in junior high school libraries in a much more straitlaced age, where they quite simply DID fly.

Which is why I asked what your point was, exactly. If it is that these kinds of books "won't fly" in middle schools, well, sorry, but in fact they DO, except where pearl-clutching parents and administrators preemptively remove them. It isn't that the KIDS are horrified by the topics, because they are acutely aware of sex, drugs and consequences and need to discuss them; and it isn't most PARENTS who are horrified; it's just a few individuals who evidently believe that if kids aren't exposed to the topics, they won't think about it, and if they don't think about it, then bad things won't happen to them. If that is your position, then I assume you are against the reading of, for instance, "Romeo and Juliet," with its underage sex and street violence; "The Hunger Games" for obvious reasons; or having copies of "Call of the Wild" or "Sleepy Hollow" in the library (all that drinking and gratuitous violence).
 
2014-02-09 01:29:20 AM  
i306.photobucket.com
 
2014-02-09 01:58:30 AM  
Waitaminit how did subby start a headline off with the word principal and not immediately caught sayof?
 
2014-02-09 05:04:19 AM  

oh_please: Gyrfalcon: What is your point here?
My original point WAS that poetry about sex and drug use wouldn't fly in a public junior HS library, because of it's controversial content. I thought it would be obvious to everyone. I even made an over-the-top joke that I couldn't wait for people to compare this to Hitler and book burning.

Sure enough, everyone took me at my word, and lost their collective minds, ranging from bragging about all the sex books they read at a young age, to literally wishing me dead.

The thing is, I tried to be nice early on and discuss, but the FARK BrigadeTM was having none of that.

I'm torn...should I be offended at all the pitchforks and torches, or should I be laughing my ass off?


I did book reports on Steven King books in seventh and eighth grade. They had sex, drugs, and violence in them. It's no big deal. And I didn't even have parents that talked to me about the books. I survived and so will every other kid ready some whiny poem about crack smoking.

What kind of lame library did you have? Was this in the holler our something?
 
2014-02-09 05:27:10 AM  

flondrix: oh_please: I'm sure that there are plenty of folks who are comfortable with their 14-year-olds reading this, but that's a parental decision...not something that a junior HS should offer up in their library.

Yeah, I consider myself a first amendment fundamentalist, and I can't work up much outrage over this.


I agree - this is not some book burning issue.It's a judgement call, and legitimately so.
But, that having been said - I question the judgement behind this call.
When we talk to our kids about drugs, the very worst thing we can do is lie to them - that always ends very, very badly.
And sooner or later, when we warn our kids about some of the terrible things some drugs can do to them, the awkward moment will come.
The moment when your kid asks "Why would anybody even DO that, Daddy?"
It's tough - because you don't want to say anything that will make drugs seem attractive - but to say something like "well, because they are crazy and stupid and sick, honey", or " because their bad friends got them to do it" or "Just to try to be cool"  or "because they can't handle life"- we are lying to them.
The real truth is that people take drugs because they provide intense, easily obtained pleasure.
That is the truth, and that is what we need to tell them.
That carries with it the complexity and nuance of having to explain the chief lesson of life - that pleasure and gratification, cheaply and easily obtained, has a terrible price, and that experiences of value must be earned, and built from within.
But, you know what? Kids are smart - smarter than we give them credit for, usually. They get it, when it is explained to them and taught by example - but it is only the example part that really takes, in the long run.
 
2014-02-09 08:03:21 AM  

digitalrain: cuzsis: I see the "OMG it's a book and therefor needs to be read!" crowd is here. 

 Look, not all books are worth the paper they're printed on. Just because someone has an opinion on something and wants to be "artistic" with it, doesn't mean they have a good or well thought out opinion. School resources are limited and they *should* be picky about the books they decide to put on their shelves. They *should* be looking for books that are well written, appropriate for the age level that will be reading it, and cover the topic in a mature and educated matter.

 If this book doesn't make the cut, well, sucks to be the author. They need to write a better book.

I agree with part of what you said. Not all literary efforts are diamonds. Some are destined to remain lumps of coal. But you take books like "Go Ask Alice", "To Kill a Mockingbird", "A Wrinkle in Time", any of the "Harry Potter" books, etc... they are solid books that are worth kids taking the time to read. I realize that is just my opinion. But so is this - pay attention to what your kids are reading. If you don't want them reading something, fine. That's your perogative. But don't try to dictate what other parents should or shouldn't let their kids read just b/c you've got a burr up your ass.

/ and by 'your' I mean the complaining parents


No one is trying to with-hold or tell people that no kid should read book X ever, there's always the public library and e-books and the internet at large. Schools are always in a position of CYA(cover your ass).  If some parents don't want their kids reading X specifically, they're not dictating that other kids cannot read it, they're only making it less available at one location.

For them to remove a book that poetically describes, maybe romanticizes, the high that crack gives is totally reasonable.

This is not book burning people.
 
2014-02-09 08:36:05 AM  
"what am I supposed to tell my kid?"

These eight words seem to be at the heart of many of these 'banning issues', so Let's be really clear; you can say anything you want to your little boy or girl - THAT IS YOUR JOB AS A PARENT. The simplest thing to say to them is :

"Sometimes People - Including Authors and Parents - Are wrong about things, but on most things, most people agree. What did you find XXX about this book, and how can I help you make your own mind up about it? I know I have raised you to be an intelligent, compassionate, sensible person, and together we can make sense of this, even if we have to look stuff p or talk about it over and over - because I love you."

THAT IS WHAT YOU SAY. And then you listen carefully, and say "good bye" in your head to that round of Golf you wanted to play this afternoon.

Of course none of this makes sense when you are screaming at your teenager. I suspect this is the real problem - their child no longer seeks their guidance or is relying more on other people for their self-affirmation.
 
2014-02-09 08:53:05 AM  
From the second line of TFA:

"Things I Have to Tell You: Poems and Writing by Teenage Girls, compiled by Betsy Franco, will be offered to the Mountain View High School library, Stapley Principal Ken Erickson said."

It's a non-issue. Literally nothing to see here. Go home.
 
2014-02-09 09:12:15 AM  

sendtodave: AdrienVeidt: sendtodave: I don't see why public schools have any books other than textbooks or assigned reading.

Kids can read for fun on their own time.

And the textbooks assigned books should be agreed upon by all the parents.  A school shouldn't teach things that go against a parent's values.

That's three opinions you stated; and three opinions you got completely wrong.

Opinions can't be wrong.

And that's a fact.


It's my opinion that they can be, and multiple facts show that they can be.
 
2014-02-09 09:44:45 AM  

AdrienVeidt: sendtodave: AdrienVeidt: sendtodave: I don't see why public schools have any books other than textbooks or assigned reading.

Kids can read for fun on their own time.

And the textbooks assigned books should be agreed upon by all the parents.  A school shouldn't teach things that go against a parent's values.

That's three opinions you stated; and three opinions you got completely wrong.

Opinions can't be wrong.

And that's a fact.

It's my opinion that they can be, and multiple facts show that they can be.


Feeling =\= Opinion
Mistaken Belief =\= Opinion
Wild guess or wager or prediction based only very loosely on logic =\= Opinion
Coming to a conclusion on X without a full comprehension of said topic =\= Opinion

Really, it comes down to the definition of opinion.  Opinion, in it's more traditional sense, cannot be wrong, as it's purely subjective based on taste or preference of an individual.

If you want to nullify the meaning of Opinion down to how the lowest common denominator of ignorant dolts misuse of the word, then yes, opinions can be objective and therefore factual.
 
2014-02-09 05:11:20 PM  

omeganuepsilon: digitalrain: cuzsis: I see the "OMG it's a book and therefor needs to be read!" crowd is here. 

 Look, not all books are worth the paper they're printed on. Just because someone has an opinion on something and wants to be "artistic" with it, doesn't mean they have a good or well thought out opinion. School resources are limited and they *should* be picky about the books they decide to put on their shelves. They *should* be looking for books that are well written, appropriate for the age level that will be reading it, and cover the topic in a mature and educated matter.

 If this book doesn't make the cut, well, sucks to be the author. They need to write a better book.

I agree with part of what you said. Not all literary efforts are diamonds. Some are destined to remain lumps of coal. But you take books like "Go Ask Alice", "To Kill a Mockingbird", "A Wrinkle in Time", any of the "Harry Potter" books, etc... they are solid books that are worth kids taking the time to read. I realize that is just my opinion. But so is this - pay attention to what your kids are reading. If you don't want them reading something, fine. That's your perogative. But don't try to dictate what other parents should or shouldn't let their kids read just b/c you've got a burr up your ass.

/ and by 'your' I mean the complaining parents

No one is trying to with-hold or tell people that no kid should read book X ever, there's always the public library and e-books and the internet at large. Schools are always in a position of CYA(cover your ass).  If some parents don't want their kids reading X specifically, they're not dictating that other kids cannot read it, they're only making it less available at one location.

For them to remove a book that poetically describes, maybe romanticizes, the high that crack gives is totally reasonable.

This is not book burning people.


The point is, it was written by teenagers. It's exactly the sort of thing that belongs in a school library.
 
2014-02-09 06:50:18 PM  

Abacus9: The point is, it was written by teenagers. It's exactly the sort of thing that belongs in a school library.


That's an awkward leap, surprised you don't injure yourself with things like that.

Same true for teen rapists, murderers, and such if they were decide to wax poetic about how good their exploits felt?  Or do you draw an arbitrary line at hard drug use?
 
2014-02-09 07:28:06 PM  

Abacus9: omeganuepsilon: digitalrain: cuzsis: I see the "OMG it's a book and therefor needs to be read!" crowd is here. 

 Look, not all books are worth the paper they're printed on. Just because someone has an opinion on something and wants to be "artistic" with it, doesn't mean they have a good or well thought out opinion. School resources are limited and they *should* be picky about the books they decide to put on their shelves. They *should* be looking for books that are well written, appropriate for the age level that will be reading it, and cover the topic in a mature and educated matter.

 If this book doesn't make the cut, well, sucks to be the author. They need to write a better book.

I agree with part of what you said. Not all literary efforts are diamonds. Some are destined to remain lumps of coal. But you take books like "Go Ask Alice", "To Kill a Mockingbird", "A Wrinkle in Time", any of the "Harry Potter" books, etc... they are solid books that are worth kids taking the time to read. I realize that is just my opinion. But so is this - pay attention to what your kids are reading. If you don't want them reading something, fine. That's your perogative. But don't try to dictate what other parents should or shouldn't let their kids read just b/c you've got a burr up your ass.

/ and by 'your' I mean the complaining parents

No one is trying to with-hold or tell people that no kid should read book X ever, there's always the public library and e-books and the internet at large. Schools are always in a position of CYA(cover your ass).  If some parents don't want their kids reading X specifically, they're not dictating that other kids cannot read it, they're only making it less available at one location.

For them to remove a book that poetically describes, maybe romanticizes, the high that crack gives is totally reasonable.

This is not book burning people.

The point is, it was written by teenagers. It's exactly the sort of thing that belongs in a school library.


This. This is ONE poem. Out of how many in the book?

CSB time...

When I was a kid, I spent two weeks each summer at camp. A couple of those years, it was a camp run by a Baptist church in our area. Among the books I brought with me was a book of poetry about cats. One of the poems was from the cat's point of view and in it the cat was the embodiment of Satan, commanding mere mortals to do its bidding.

They wanted me to burn the book in front of the whole camp. I refused and told them that if they had an issue with it, they were more than welcome to reach out to my folks to come get me - with a full refund of camp dues, of course. I didn't hear anything further about it after that.

/ end CSB
 
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