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(CNN)   Transgender woman wants to live life as a grotesque, obscene distortion of reality: a fashion model   (cnn.com ) divider line
    More: Interesting, Carmen Carrera, Vivienne Westwood, hoop earrings, Zac Posen, grotesque  
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7120 clicks; posted to Main » on 08 Feb 2014 at 7:39 AM (2 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-02-08 01:06:40 PM  
3 votes:

frepnog: The My Little Pony Killer: TwistedFark: I can't understand why the genital mutilation needed to happen.

I can't understand the use of this phrasing by people who are honestly curious and want a question answered.

Why put the people best equipped to answer you on the defensive? What purpose does that serve?

how is cutting one's penis off not genital mutilation?

i can call a pop tart a cruller....  but it ain't.


I want you to try something for me. Imagine, in all the detail you can muster, that you have gone to sleep and woken up in a woman's body. Your mind is still male, but your body's not. You've got tits, but your little frepnog is gone. Instead you've got this squishy, soft, crinkly cave of mystery. And when you get aroused there's no boner. When you go outside, people say ma'am and miss instead of sir and dude and what have you. You try to correct them. "I'm not a girl!" They don't listen. 

You might try to compensate. Cut off your long girly hair, wear dude clothes, swagger as best you can with wide hips. Now, at best, they might think you're a baby butch lesbian and cue THOSE jokes.

You try to date, but straight guys will want to treat you like a girl and you'll be miserable with that, and gay guys won't be interested because you're a girl on the outside. And girls aren't interested because 1)if they're straight they don't want your female body and 2)if they're gay they don't want a man, even in female packaging.

The little things that guys get away with and girls don't will drive you mad. You'll protest that you're really a guy and nobody will believe yo

You'll try binding and packing to cope with the dysphoria (the disconnect and despair that comes from body and mind being out of sync with each other.) But when you go on a date, or try to have sex, the reality will slap you in the face again. That nice straight girl will run screaming from your pussy. And if she doesn't, you'll wonder if she's actually straight.You'll wonder if anyone can really love you for you. Now there are some out there who can, who can see past body parts and love the person as-is, but they're rare. SO rare. And even their love may not be enough to quell that longing for a different body.

You'll doubt everyone and everything and wish for a miracle that doesn't happen. That someone, somewhere, somehow can give you a body that makes sense. That has the parts your brain is looking for.

Everyone has a "mental map" of their body, stored in their brain somewhere. When the map says A and the body has B, you get dysphoria.

And when the woman is in a man's body, like Ms Carrera here, and there is this "extra" that's NOT on the map, well, it makes sense to do something about it. To a trans woman, it's not mutilation because it's getting rid of something she never asked for and never wanted. Think of the whole "if it's got a dick it's a boy" argument. Her body is AMAZING. Her speech, her perspective, it's female. I've watched her since her Drag Race days and there was always something about her that you didn't see in the other queens. Like, with the other queens there was a clear line between their male selves and their female personas. With Carmen it felt like she never really got "out of character." She was apparently tucking full-time, which is not something a contented cis male does. He tucks for his act and untucks as soon as he's done because that shiat apparently HURTS. But she was putting up with that discomfort all the time in order to combat the mental anguish.

Now tell me, compared to that ongoing agony, that genital confirmation surgery is "mutilation."

For trans women, it isn't. They can take that tissue and rearrange it into a functioning vulva and vagina, they can have orgasms. They can have a body that makes sense to them. It's not mutilation, it's recycling.

For trans men...I'm still iffy on that one, not because of some kind of vaginofascism but because the surgeries are frankly lacking in quality. They haven't worked out how to build a good, functioning cock and balls out of female tissue.There's also the rewiring of the urinary tract to factor in.  There are some approximations, but...given that it's a one-shot thing, no do-overs, very expensive and not usually covered by insurance, a lot of transmen are opting for other means. Maybe someday they can 3d print a nice package for these guys and finagle some kind of erectile tissue from the clitoris, but who knows. I mean we can't even 3d print Nerf parts that fit properly, so...yeah.

TLDR: If you're trans it's not mutilation because you're getting rid of something that you never wanted anyway.
2014-02-08 10:50:41 AM  
2 votes:

markfara: snocone: Is this a good place to state that modern "psychology" is moving towards stating that the "normal" sexual orientation for humans is bisexuality?

There is an evolving consensus.

Conflating sexuality with gender identity will get you yelled at.


Yup - just ask my friend the lesbian male to female transsexual.

While intellectually I sorta understand it, I can't understand why the genital mutilation needed to happen. I'm not a psychologist, but couldn't something like cognitive behavioural therapy be used to treat any sort of revulsion to the male member? It just seems like the loss of sexual function would be over time even more mentally damaging than simply learning to express ones gender identity with um... having a male bit there.
2014-02-08 07:51:53 PM  
1 vote:
he/she has done things to his/her face that I don't even like on real females. Do not want.
2014-02-08 11:57:05 AM  
1 vote:

harleyquinnical: TwistedFark: While intellectually I sorta understand it, I can't understand why the genital mutilation needed to happen. I'm not a psychologist, but couldn't something like cognitive behavioural therapy be used to treat any sort of revulsion to the male member? It just seems like the loss of sexual function would be over time even more mentally damaging than simply learning to express ones gender identity with um... having a male bit there.

It's not really mutilation.  There is still functionality if the doctors did it correctly.  The problem with the cognitive behavioral therapy is that such an argument would be used to prevent any gender change at all, leaving most sufferers of gender dysphoria miserable, depressed and possibly suicidal.


Well, I think we can just skip the parsing of the word "mutilation". I realize it's a charged word and I chose it both for the clinical definition as well as to express my distaste for the poor success rate (approximately 60%) of reassignment surgery. Anyway, as for CBT -  I know it is used to treat body dysmorphia in general and is particularly successful at that, so I thought it might be a suitable non-invasive treatment compared to surgery. Frankly, the idea would be to prevent surgery because this would be the best outcome for the patient. It's never a good outcome when you need to have surgery as you're risking your life.

My concern for this stems from the fact that my friend (mtf transsexual) has experienced severe bouts of depression relating to the health after affects of her sex reassignment surgery. From my understanding (admittedly limited) I have a deep concern that clinically doctors are treading a very fine here in treating people appropriately. I wouldn't wish any of the things my friend has suffered through on anyone. It is entirely possible that while societal norms have adjusted to making this type of surgery more socially acceptable (at least compared to how it's been treated in the past) it's likely not the best outcome, and I'll get to that in a moment...

As for leaving the genitals untouched, depending on the sexuality of the person, their target demographic may not exactly appreciate the shock of expecting one and finding the other.  If one is going to pass, one must go all the way to pass.

I understand this, but I would counter with this: If we knew a natural woman who was very flat chested and wanted to get breast implants because she thought men didn't find her attractive, then I think most reasonable people would council against it. After all, changing yourself (particularly through surgery) isn't something to be done lightly. I'm also certain that there would be a very vocal majority telling her that the problem is with the men, and not her.

Now, with a much more radical surgery, with a much higher failure rate and rate of complications (some of them particularly dangerous), it seems like we should apply the same level of concern and counsel. I would postulate that the real problem is with society in general, where for some reason we must have very strict binary interpretations of sex and the pressure to conform to this is huge.

Realistically, I can't deal in absolutes here because everyone has their own particular set of circumstances in life that they need to deal with. However, I do not think it's a good thing, even if you are a sympathetic towards the LGBT community (or like me, have friends and family that are queer) to just blindly support everything, particularly in issues of health.

So that's pretty much what I'm challenging - Why is it not okay to be a pretty girl with a penis? If we weren't so rigid on sexual identification, would this mean that sex reassignment surgery would become a much more rarer form of treatment? Would this be preferable? (I tend to think that it is due to the risk of complications)

Basically, are we doing everything we can to make things okay for these people?
2014-02-08 11:23:45 AM  
1 vote:

Rising_Zan_Samurai_Gunman: Of course, it should be noted that the majority likely also has many misconceptions about what same sex couples actually do.


is this the thread where we claim gay men don't butt fark each other?

because the spread of aids in the homosexual community and the rise of condom use to curb it really calls that into question.
2014-02-08 11:13:48 AM  
1 vote:

frepnog: snocone: Is this a good place to state that modern "psychology" is moving towards stating that the "normal" sexual orientation for humans is bisexuality?

not true in any way, and you know it.  the majority of human population is heterosexual.  to the majority of the human population, copulation with the same sex is revolting.

saying stuff like that may get you points with the LBGTBLTRBDFMGM&GD$ groups, but it isn't true.


Much of the LGBTQ crowd have contempt for bisexuals fyi.
2014-02-08 11:13:34 AM  
1 vote:

frepnog: snocone: Is this a good place to state that modern "psychology" is moving towards stating that the "normal" sexual orientation for humans is bisexuality?

not true in any way, and you know it.  the majority of human population is heterosexual.  to the majority of the human population, copulation with the same sex is revolting.

saying stuff like that may get you points with the LBGTBLTRBDFMGM&GD$ groups, but it isn't true.


I think it may be a bit strong to say the majority finds it "revolting", although that probably does apply to some. For example, I'm not interested in sex with another man, but the concept doesn't gross me out either.  I would guess that men are more likely to describe same-sex copulation as "revolting" then women.
   Of course, it should be noted that the majority likely also has many misconceptions about what same sex couples actually do.
2014-02-08 11:08:06 AM  
1 vote:

TwistedFark: While intellectually I sorta understand it, I can't understand why the genital mutilation needed to happen. I'm not a psychologist, but couldn't something like cognitive behavioural therapy be used to treat any sort of revulsion to the male member? It just seems like the loss of sexual function would be over time even more mentally damaging than simply learning to express ones gender identity with um... having a male bit there.


It's not really mutilation.  There is still functionality if the doctors did it correctly.  The problem with the cognitive behavioral therapy is that such an argument would be used to prevent any gender change at all, leaving most sufferers of gender dysphoria miserable, depressed and possibly suicidal.  As for leaving the genitals untouched, depending on the sexuality of the person, their target demographic may not exactly appreciate the shock of expecting one and finding the other.  If one is going to pass, one must go all the way to pass.
2014-02-08 11:03:38 AM  
1 vote:

TwistedFark: markfara: snocone: Is this a good place to state that modern "psychology" is moving towards stating that the "normal" sexual orientation for humans is bisexuality?

There is an evolving consensus.

Conflating sexuality with gender identity will get you yelled at.

Yup - just ask my friend the lesbian male to female transsexual.

While intellectually I sorta understand it, I can't understand why the genital mutilation needed to happen. I'm not a psychologist, but couldn't something like cognitive behavioural therapy be used to treat any sort of revulsion to the male member? It just seems like the loss of sexual function would be over time even more mentally damaging than simply learning to express ones gender identity with um... having a male bit there.


One can learn to enjoy what they have but it's NOT the same thing by any means.  Also, we're constantly hammered with the idea that we won't be "real" women until we've had the operation. Our legal status and protections are often tied to that as well and quite frankly, if that's what someone wants for themselves that's their choice.
2014-02-08 10:58:00 AM  
1 vote:

snocone: Is this a good place to state that modern "psychology" is moving towards stating that the "normal" sexual orientation for humans is bisexuality?


not true in any way, and you know it.  the majority of human population is heterosexual.  to the majority of the human population, copulation with the same sex is revolting.

saying stuff like that may get you points with the LBGTBLTRBDFMGM&GD$ groups, but it isn't true.
2014-02-08 10:37:21 AM  
1 vote:
Is this a good place to state that modern "psychology" is moving towards stating that the "normal" sexual orientation for humans is bisexuality?

There is an evolving consensus.
2014-02-08 10:11:31 AM  
1 vote:

frepnog: Son of Thunder: Those are your options. Pick a side and start hating the other side.

what about those of us that realize that if we decided we were really Napoleon inside and started dressing and acting as Napoleon, we would be locked up because no one would tolerate the delusion?

/Do what makes you happy - but don't be surprised when some people have issues with your delusion.


Don't be surprised when nobody gives a f**k what you think about things that are none of your business.
2014-02-08 10:10:46 AM  
1 vote:

frepnog: Son of Thunder: Those are your options. Pick a side and start hating the other side.

what about those of us that realize that if we decided we were really Napoleon inside and started dressing and acting as Napoleon, we would be locked up because no one would tolerate the delusion?

/Do what makes you happy - but don't be surprised when some people have issues with your delusion.


Napoleon was a unique individual. Unless reincarnation is a thing he's not coming back and biology isn't like a machine assembly line. Things don't always go according to plan.

Is it possible for complications to occur during human development such that a person diverges from the expected outcome? Yes. See: intersexism as an example. Do we fully understand human biology and development? No. Just because a thing is not understood doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Also, there are plenty of examples of estrogenic chemicals having a feminizing effect on wildlife. That means it's in the food chain. You think it might not get back to us in some form?

Now if you want to start talking about delusion we can get into that but it will piss off the religious types.
2014-02-08 10:10:32 AM  
1 vote:

RottenEggs: So she now has man parts ?


/DRTFA


She always had them.  She's striving to not have them while making it as a fashion model.  More power to her...


Standard vocabulary for those still confused:
MtF= trans-woman
FtM=trans-man.
2014-02-08 09:57:29 AM  
1 vote:

Son of Thunder: Those are your options. Pick a side and start hating the other side.


what about those of us that realize that if we decided we were really Napoleon inside and started dressing and acting as Napoleon, we would be locked up because no one would tolerate the delusion?

/Do what makes you happy - but don't be surprised when some people have issues with your delusion.
2014-02-08 08:25:16 AM  
1 vote:
Looks like a guy.
2014-02-08 08:16:00 AM  
1 vote:
Well, if I didn't know... hell, even now that I do know I probably would. And not feel bad about it either.
2014-02-08 07:59:21 AM  
1 vote:
Knowing how queer friendly the fashion industry is, Giselle better watch out, I smell a dethroning.
 
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