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(CNN)   Transgender woman wants to live life as a grotesque, obscene distortion of reality: a fashion model   (cnn.com ) divider line
    More: Interesting, Carmen Carrera, Vivienne Westwood, hoop earrings, Zac Posen, grotesque  
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7120 clicks; posted to Main » on 08 Feb 2014 at 7:39 AM (2 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-02-08 11:51:57 AM  

Theaetetus: TwistedFark: Yup - just ask my friend the lesbian male to female transsexual.

While intellectually I sorta understand it, I can't understand why the genital mutilation needed to happen. I'm not a psychologist, but couldn't something like cognitive behavioural therapy be used to treat any sort of revulsion to the male member?

There's a disconnect between the physical gender and the mental gender, leaving three options: deal with it (which leads to high rates of depression and suicide, so that's out); change the body (a known surgical procedure with a high rate of success); or change the mind. And that last one, no one has any idea how to do. It's right up there in the realm of "well, can't you just teach someone not to be gay?" or "but if you just pray hard enough, Jesus will change your mind for you!"

 It just seems like the loss of sexual function would be over time even more mentally damaging than simply learning to express ones gender identity with um... having a male bit there.

Well, when you figure out how to make people "simply learn to express one's gender identity" with no problems, then you can start making that suggestion. Until then, I'd keep the whole "mutilation" talk to yourself... particularly since you allegedly have trans friends.


Im positive I should have been born one - armed. I am in the process of transitioning into a one-armed person. I hope to have my reassignment surgery soon. Same spectrum. Different shade. Like autism. Still a disorder.
 
2014-02-08 11:55:24 AM  

elysive: FirstNationalBastard: elysive: frepnog: snocone: Is this a good place to state that modern "psychology" is moving towards stating that the "normal" sexual orientation for humans is bisexuality?

not true in any way, and you know it.  the majority of human population is heterosexual.  to the majority of the human population, copulation with the same sex is revolting.

saying stuff like that may get you points with the LBGTBLTRBDFMGM&GD$ groups, but it isn't true.

Much of the LGBTQ crowd have contempt for bisexuals fyi.

That... makes no sense.

You cant imagine why people might be irritated at those who "play for both teams" or "wont make up their mind"? Then there are people, both gay and straight, who say bisexuality doesnt exist at all. It is a waystation before choosing an adult lifestyle. Part of the confusion comes from our culture's preference for monogamy. Just because a person commits to a man or a woman does not mean they cannot look at other people of either gender.

My partner even is very open minded and has an advanced psych degree but has screwy ideas. I think he's afraid, so long as I identify as bi, that I may leave him for a woman. As if a word has anything to do with organic attractions.


I don't get it because they're pissing off people who are  allies and more understanding and sympathetic to their cause than those who think "YOU MUST BE ONE OR THE OTHER AND NOTHING ELSE!".

I also don't get Atheists looking down on Agnostics.
 
2014-02-08 11:57:05 AM  

harleyquinnical: TwistedFark: While intellectually I sorta understand it, I can't understand why the genital mutilation needed to happen. I'm not a psychologist, but couldn't something like cognitive behavioural therapy be used to treat any sort of revulsion to the male member? It just seems like the loss of sexual function would be over time even more mentally damaging than simply learning to express ones gender identity with um... having a male bit there.

It's not really mutilation.  There is still functionality if the doctors did it correctly.  The problem with the cognitive behavioral therapy is that such an argument would be used to prevent any gender change at all, leaving most sufferers of gender dysphoria miserable, depressed and possibly suicidal.


Well, I think we can just skip the parsing of the word "mutilation". I realize it's a charged word and I chose it both for the clinical definition as well as to express my distaste for the poor success rate (approximately 60%) of reassignment surgery. Anyway, as for CBT -  I know it is used to treat body dysmorphia in general and is particularly successful at that, so I thought it might be a suitable non-invasive treatment compared to surgery. Frankly, the idea would be to prevent surgery because this would be the best outcome for the patient. It's never a good outcome when you need to have surgery as you're risking your life.

My concern for this stems from the fact that my friend (mtf transsexual) has experienced severe bouts of depression relating to the health after affects of her sex reassignment surgery. From my understanding (admittedly limited) I have a deep concern that clinically doctors are treading a very fine here in treating people appropriately. I wouldn't wish any of the things my friend has suffered through on anyone. It is entirely possible that while societal norms have adjusted to making this type of surgery more socially acceptable (at least compared to how it's been treated in the past) it's likely not the best outcome, and I'll get to that in a moment...

As for leaving the genitals untouched, depending on the sexuality of the person, their target demographic may not exactly appreciate the shock of expecting one and finding the other.  If one is going to pass, one must go all the way to pass.

I understand this, but I would counter with this: If we knew a natural woman who was very flat chested and wanted to get breast implants because she thought men didn't find her attractive, then I think most reasonable people would council against it. After all, changing yourself (particularly through surgery) isn't something to be done lightly. I'm also certain that there would be a very vocal majority telling her that the problem is with the men, and not her.

Now, with a much more radical surgery, with a much higher failure rate and rate of complications (some of them particularly dangerous), it seems like we should apply the same level of concern and counsel. I would postulate that the real problem is with society in general, where for some reason we must have very strict binary interpretations of sex and the pressure to conform to this is huge.

Realistically, I can't deal in absolutes here because everyone has their own particular set of circumstances in life that they need to deal with. However, I do not think it's a good thing, even if you are a sympathetic towards the LGBT community (or like me, have friends and family that are queer) to just blindly support everything, particularly in issues of health.

So that's pretty much what I'm challenging - Why is it not okay to be a pretty girl with a penis? If we weren't so rigid on sexual identification, would this mean that sex reassignment surgery would become a much more rarer form of treatment? Would this be preferable? (I tend to think that it is due to the risk of complications)

Basically, are we doing everything we can to make things okay for these people?
 
2014-02-08 11:59:25 AM  

elysive: FirstNationalBastard: elysive: frepnog: snocone: Is this a good place to state that modern "psychology" is moving towards stating that the "normal" sexual orientation for humans is bisexuality?

not true in any way, and you know it.  the majority of human population is heterosexual.  to the majority of the human population, copulation with the same sex is revolting.

saying stuff like that may get you points with the LBGTBLTRBDFMGM&GD$ groups, but it isn't true.

Much of the LGBTQ crowd have contempt for bisexuals fyi.

That... makes no sense.

You cant imagine why people might be irritated at those who "play for both teams" or "wont make up their mind"? Then there are people, both gay and straight, who say bisexuality doesnt exist at all. It is a waystation before choosing an adult lifestyle. Part of the confusion comes from our culture's preference for monogamy. Just because a person commits to a man or a woman does not mean they cannot look at other people of either gender.

My partner even is very open minded and has an advanced psych degree but has screwy ideas. I think he's afraid, so long as I identify as bi, that I may leave him for a woman. As if a word has anything to do with organic attractions.


Another part of the confusion is the view from our little part of human experience.
We tend to think our silly "society" has some merit built in and IS the best of all human experience.
All 80,000 years or so of it.
 
2014-02-08 11:59:32 AM  

Por que tan serioso: Im positive I should have been born one - armed. I am in the process of transitioning into a one-armed person. I hope to have my reassignment surgery soon. Same spectrum. Different shade. Like autism. Still a disorder.


Well, I'm sure you're not trolling, because no one is that much of an asshole, so I'll simply wish you the best of luck with your body integrity identity disorder, and particularly note that, according to the DSM, your amputation will probably help your quality of life significantly:
Subjects who actually had performed amputation scored significantly lower on the Sheehan Disability Scale compared to those who had not. BIID individuals prefer being in harmony with one's identity, even if it results in physical disability. Surgery appears to result in permanent remission of BIID and in impressive improvement of quality of life...
 
2014-02-08 12:04:05 PM  

FirstNationalBastard: elysive: FirstNationalBastard: elysive: frepnog: snocone: Is this a good place to state that modern "psychology" is moving towards stating that the "normal" sexual orientation for humans is bisexuality?

not true in any way, and you know it.  the majority of human population is heterosexual.  to the majority of the human population, copulation with the same sex is revolting.

saying stuff like that may get you points with the LBGTBLTRBDFMGM&GD$ groups, but it isn't true.

Much of the LGBTQ crowd have contempt for bisexuals fyi.

That... makes no sense.

You cant imagine why people might be irritated at those who "play for both teams" or "wont make up their mind"? Then there are people, both gay and straight, who say bisexuality doesnt exist at all. It is a waystation before choosing an adult lifestyle. Part of the confusion comes from our culture's preference for monogamy. Just because a person commits to a man or a woman does not mean they cannot look at other people of either gender.

My partner even is very open minded and has an advanced psych degree but has screwy ideas. I think he's afraid, so long as I identify as bi, that I may leave him for a woman. As if a word has anything to do with organic attractions.

I don't get it because they're pissing off people who are  allies and more understanding and sympathetic to their cause than those who think "YOU MUST BE ONE OR THE OTHER AND NOTHING ELSE!".

I also don't get Atheists looking down on Agnostics.


Divide and Conquer by offering the choice of Two Evils has it's own special place in my heart.
And when it is presented a THE FARKING WORD OF GOD, I just go all batzhit.
Used politically, it causes a severe headache leading to convulsions.
So, I have that going for me
which is nice
 
2014-02-08 12:05:59 PM  

harleyquinnical: RottenEggs: So she now has man parts ?

Standard vocabulary for those still confused:
MtF= trans-woman
FtM=trans-man.



I prefer "himer" and "herim".
 
2014-02-08 12:06:01 PM  

FirstNationalBastard: elysive: FirstNationalBastard: elysive: frepnog: snocone: Is this a good place to state that modern "psychology" is moving towards stating that the "normal" sexual orientation for humans is bisexuality?

not true in any way, and you know it.  the majority of human population is heterosexual.  to the majority of the human population, copulation with the same sex is revolting.

saying stuff like that may get you points with the LBGTBLTRBDFMGM&GD$ groups, but it isn't true.

Much of the LGBTQ crowd have contempt for bisexuals fyi.

That... makes no sense.

You cant imagine why people might be irritated at those who "play for both teams" or "wont make up their mind"? Then there are people, both gay and straight, who say bisexuality doesnt exist at all. It is a waystation before choosing an adult lifestyle. Part of the confusion comes from our culture's preference for monogamy. Just because a person commits to a man or a woman does not mean they cannot look at other people of either gender.

My partner even is very open minded and has an advanced psych degree but has screwy ideas. I think he's afraid, so long as I identify as bi, that I may leave him for a woman. As if a word has anything to do with organic attractions.

I don't get it because they're pissing off people who are  allies and more understanding and sympathetic to their cause than those who think "YOU MUST BE ONE OR THE OTHER AND NOTHING ELSE!".

I also don't get Atheists looking down on Agnostics.


*shrug* You're preaching to the choir. Incidentally, I've never seen gay people turn away a bi person's political support, but yea you would think it'd be reciprocated.
 
2014-02-08 12:08:27 PM  

zippythechimp: Looks like a guy.


No more so than most runway models.  I think she's pretty.
 
2014-02-08 12:08:29 PM  

FirstNationalBastard: I also don't get Atheists looking down on Agnostics.


Because the majority of agnostics are really just being pedantic, rather than actually expressing a belief against gnosticism.

wp.patheos.com
 
2014-02-08 12:11:38 PM  

Z-clipped: zippythechimp: Looks like a guy.

No more so than most runway models.  I think she's pretty.


Needs a samich.
 
2014-02-08 12:12:25 PM  

Theaetetus: Por que tan serioso: Im positive I should have been born one - armed. I am in the process of transitioning into a one-armed person. I hope to have my reassignment surgery soon. Same spectrum. Different shade. Like autism. Still a disorder.

Well, I'm sure you're not trolling, because no one is that much of an asshole, so I'll simply wish you the best of luck with your body integrity identity disorder, and particularly note that, according to the DSM, your amputation will probably help your quality of life significantly:
Subjects who actually had performed amputation scored significantly lower on the Sheehan Disability Scale compared to those who had not. BIID individuals prefer being in harmony with one's identity, even if it results in physical disability. Surgery appears to result in permanent remission of BIID and in impressive improvement of quality of life...


Here's the thing though. Nobody is "blaming" anyone. Some people are "born this way". Fine. They can lead happy fulfilling lives. To each their own. They shouldnt be hated or discriminated against in anyway. However, creatively redefining the narrative with buzzwords doesnt change the fact that if something hadnt gone wrong you wouldnt want to chop off your weiner. Go ahead and chop it off. Nobody should care. "Emerging" sexuality is bullshiat. Dow chemical and hormone fed beef are probably to blame not the individual.
 
2014-02-08 12:12:52 PM  

FirstNationalBastard: I also don't get Atheists looking down on Agnostics.


Atheists don't look down on agnostics.  Atheists ARE agnostics.  We look down on people who describe themselves as "agnostic" purely to avoid the label "atheist".  Big difference.
 
2014-02-08 12:14:06 PM  

snocone: Z-clipped: zippythechimp: Looks like a guy.

No more so than most runway models.  I think she's pretty.

Needs a samich.


You didn't watch the video. Her thighs are bigger around than mine.
 
2014-02-08 12:15:39 PM  

Por que tan serioso: Theaetetus: Por que tan serioso: Im positive I should have been born one - armed. I am in the process of transitioning into a one-armed person. I hope to have my reassignment surgery soon. Same spectrum. Different shade. Like autism. Still a disorder.

Well, I'm sure you're not trolling, because no one is that much of an asshole, so I'll simply wish you the best of luck with your body integrity identity disorder, and particularly note that, according to the DSM, your amputation will probably help your quality of life significantly:
Subjects who actually had performed amputation scored significantly lower on the Sheehan Disability Scale compared to those who had not. BIID individuals prefer being in harmony with one's identity, even if it results in physical disability. Surgery appears to result in permanent remission of BIID and in impressive improvement of quality of life...

Here's the thing though. Nobody is "blaming" anyone. Some people are "born this way". Fine. They can lead happy fulfilling lives. To each their own. They shouldnt be hated or discriminated against in anyway. However, creatively redefining the narrative with buzzwords doesnt change the fact that if something hadnt gone wrong you wouldnt want to chop off your weiner. Go ahead and chop it off. Nobody should care. "Emerging" sexuality is bullshiat. Dow chemical and hormone fed beef are probably to blame not the individual.


So you were trolling and are a huge asshole? Good to know.

Anyway, I have no idea what you're trying to say here. You appear to be trying to criticize people not acknowledging that BIID or GID is a disorder... despite the fact that "Disorder" is in both names. Frankly, between the trolling and the absolutely irrelevant and inane comment, you seem to have literally nothing to add to this conversation.
 
2014-02-08 12:18:34 PM  

Z-clipped: FirstNationalBastard: I also don't get Atheists looking down on Agnostics.

Atheists don't look down on agnostics.  Atheists ARE agnostics.  We look down on people who describe themselves as "agnostic" purely to avoid the label "atheist".  Big difference.


Pretenders are pretenders, regardless.
The pretender that attracts my attention is the one "speaking for God".
Followed closely by the sycophants that can believe in a "god" that won't talk to them and needs money, hating done or killing done.
 
2014-02-08 12:19:41 PM  

Z-clipped: snocone: Z-clipped: zippythechimp: Looks like a guy.

No more so than most runway models.  I think she's pretty.

Needs a samich.

You didn't watch the video. Her thighs are bigger around than mine.


Not really a thigh man.
Must be some.
 
2014-02-08 12:23:18 PM  

harleyquinnical: RottenEggs: So she now has man parts ?


/DRTFA

She  He always had them.   She's He's striving to not have them while making it as a fashion model.  More power to her  him...


Standard vocabulary for those still confused:
MtF= trans-woman
FtM=trans-man.


I get it now ...he's always had man parts .
/RTFA
 
2014-02-08 12:31:16 PM  
Aren't most models trying to look like transgender women?
 
2014-02-08 12:51:33 PM  

WeenerGord: Aren't most models trying to look like transgender women?


Malnourished, bestilted, hairless waifs are, have been foisted off as something leading to money for far too long, IMHO.
 
2014-02-08 12:56:20 PM  

snocone: Z-clipped: snocone: Z-clipped: zippythechimp: Looks like a guy.

No more so than most runway models.  I think she's pretty.

Needs a samich.

You didn't watch the video. Her thighs are bigger around than mine.

Not really a thigh man.
Must be some.


If that---->    newnownext.mtvnimages.com

Isn't curvy enough for you, you might be a chubby chaser, my friend.

I mean, come on:

media-cache-ec0.pinimg.com
 
2014-02-08 01:01:25 PM  

TwistedFark: So that's pretty much what I'm challenging - Why is it not okay to be a pretty girl with a penis? If we weren't so rigid on sexual identification, would this mean that sex reassignment surgery would become a much more rarer form of treatment? Would this be preferable? (I tend to think that it is due to the risk of complications)


If the surgery were perfected would you still feel the same way? If the success rates approached that for other cosmetic surgeries would this particular surgery still bother you? I agree current medical techniques are less than ideal. It has me rethinking things and considering alternatives but in an ideal world I would still want the surgery. I would never be truly happy with cognitive behavior therapy or other solutions.


Also this, Why is it not okay to be a pretty girl with a penis?. People in general tend to hold very rigid views about gender. Why can't a woman have a penis? Why can't a guy wear dresses and be pretty? People get so damned upset when others stray from their perception of normal though. I think the best thing would be if people were more relaxed and groovy about gender roles and expression. I honestly don't care if my driver's license has a little 'F' on it. I don't care which bathroom I have to use if people would just loosen up a little and relax.
 
2014-02-08 01:04:33 PM  

Z-clipped: snocone: Z-clipped: snocone: Z-clipped: zippythechimp: Looks like a guy.

No more so than most runway models.  I think she's pretty.

Needs a samich.

You didn't watch the video. Her thighs are bigger around than mine.

Not really a thigh man.
Must be some.

If that---->    [newnownext.mtvnimages.com image 300x325]

Isn't curvy enough for you, you might be a chubby chaser, my friend.

I mean, come on:

[media-cache-ec0.pinimg.com image 550x733]


Geez she is beautiful. I admit I'm slightly jealous.

/ok maybe a lot jealous
 
2014-02-08 01:05:16 PM  

TwistedFark: markfara: snocone: Is this a good place to state that modern "psychology" is moving towards stating that the "normal" sexual orientation for humans is bisexuality?

There is an evolving consensus.

Conflating sexuality with gender identity will get you yelled at.

Yup - just ask my friend the lesbian male to female transsexual.

While intellectually I sorta understand it, I can't understand why the genital mutilation needed to happen. I'm not a psychologist, but couldn't something like cognitive behavioural therapy be used to treat any sort of revulsion to the male member? It just seems like the loss of sexual function would be over time even more mentally damaging than simply learning to express ones gender identity with um... having a male bit there.


So from thee rest of your statement I guessing she's more like someone you know of? Hint f she really was your friend you would know SRS is not "genital mutilation". Also what do you mean loss of sexual function? Read up on it but I hear this bs troll all the time and it is or just idiocy and lack of knowledge on a subject but you knew those loaded terms didn't you?
 
2014-02-08 01:06:11 PM  

George_Spelvin: harleyquinnical: RottenEggs: So she now has man parts ?
Standard vocabulary for those still confused:
MtF= trans-woman
FtM=trans-man.

I prefer "himer" and "herim".

You say potato, I say vodka
 
2014-02-08 01:06:40 PM  

frepnog: The My Little Pony Killer: TwistedFark: I can't understand why the genital mutilation needed to happen.

I can't understand the use of this phrasing by people who are honestly curious and want a question answered.

Why put the people best equipped to answer you on the defensive? What purpose does that serve?

how is cutting one's penis off not genital mutilation?

i can call a pop tart a cruller....  but it ain't.


I want you to try something for me. Imagine, in all the detail you can muster, that you have gone to sleep and woken up in a woman's body. Your mind is still male, but your body's not. You've got tits, but your little frepnog is gone. Instead you've got this squishy, soft, crinkly cave of mystery. And when you get aroused there's no boner. When you go outside, people say ma'am and miss instead of sir and dude and what have you. You try to correct them. "I'm not a girl!" They don't listen. 

You might try to compensate. Cut off your long girly hair, wear dude clothes, swagger as best you can with wide hips. Now, at best, they might think you're a baby butch lesbian and cue THOSE jokes.

You try to date, but straight guys will want to treat you like a girl and you'll be miserable with that, and gay guys won't be interested because you're a girl on the outside. And girls aren't interested because 1)if they're straight they don't want your female body and 2)if they're gay they don't want a man, even in female packaging.

The little things that guys get away with and girls don't will drive you mad. You'll protest that you're really a guy and nobody will believe yo

You'll try binding and packing to cope with the dysphoria (the disconnect and despair that comes from body and mind being out of sync with each other.) But when you go on a date, or try to have sex, the reality will slap you in the face again. That nice straight girl will run screaming from your pussy. And if she doesn't, you'll wonder if she's actually straight.You'll wonder if anyone can really love you for you. Now there are some out there who can, who can see past body parts and love the person as-is, but they're rare. SO rare. And even their love may not be enough to quell that longing for a different body.

You'll doubt everyone and everything and wish for a miracle that doesn't happen. That someone, somewhere, somehow can give you a body that makes sense. That has the parts your brain is looking for.

Everyone has a "mental map" of their body, stored in their brain somewhere. When the map says A and the body has B, you get dysphoria.

And when the woman is in a man's body, like Ms Carrera here, and there is this "extra" that's NOT on the map, well, it makes sense to do something about it. To a trans woman, it's not mutilation because it's getting rid of something she never asked for and never wanted. Think of the whole "if it's got a dick it's a boy" argument. Her body is AMAZING. Her speech, her perspective, it's female. I've watched her since her Drag Race days and there was always something about her that you didn't see in the other queens. Like, with the other queens there was a clear line between their male selves and their female personas. With Carmen it felt like she never really got "out of character." She was apparently tucking full-time, which is not something a contented cis male does. He tucks for his act and untucks as soon as he's done because that shiat apparently HURTS. But she was putting up with that discomfort all the time in order to combat the mental anguish.

Now tell me, compared to that ongoing agony, that genital confirmation surgery is "mutilation."

For trans women, it isn't. They can take that tissue and rearrange it into a functioning vulva and vagina, they can have orgasms. They can have a body that makes sense to them. It's not mutilation, it's recycling.

For trans men...I'm still iffy on that one, not because of some kind of vaginofascism but because the surgeries are frankly lacking in quality. They haven't worked out how to build a good, functioning cock and balls out of female tissue.There's also the rewiring of the urinary tract to factor in.  There are some approximations, but...given that it's a one-shot thing, no do-overs, very expensive and not usually covered by insurance, a lot of transmen are opting for other means. Maybe someday they can 3d print a nice package for these guys and finagle some kind of erectile tissue from the clitoris, but who knows. I mean we can't even 3d print Nerf parts that fit properly, so...yeah.

TLDR: If you're trans it's not mutilation because you're getting rid of something that you never wanted anyway.
 
2014-02-08 01:08:46 PM  

Z-clipped: snocone: Z-clipped: snocone: Z-clipped: zippythechimp: Looks like a guy.

No more so than most runway models.  I think she's pretty.

Needs a samich.

You didn't watch the video. Her thighs are bigger around than mine.

Not really a thigh man.
Must be some.

If that---->    [newnownext.mtvnimages.com image 300x325]

Isn't curvy enough for you, you might be a chubby chaser, my friend.

I mean, come on:

[media-cache-ec0.pinimg.com image 550x733]


Boobies, man, Boobies, and not high hard ones.
Like 'em right over the plate with good curve and hang time.
Worked with a Master Tits and A$$ to the stars surgeon.

Just can't fool Mother Nature.
 
2014-02-08 01:10:43 PM  

TwistedFark: I understand this, but I would counter with this: If we knew a natural woman who was very flat chested and wanted to get breast implants because she thought men didn't find her attractive, then I think most reasonable people would council against it. After all, changing yourself (particularly through surgery) isn't something to be done lightly. I'm also certain that there would be a very vocal majority telling her that the problem is with the men, and not her.Now, with a much more radical surgery, with a much higher failure rate and rate of complications (some of them particularly dangerous), it seems like we should apply the same level of concern and counsel. I would postulate that the real problem is with society in general, where for some reason we must have very strict binary interpretations of sex and the pressure to conform to this is huge.Realistically, I can't deal in absolutes here because everyone has their own particular set of circumstances in life that they need to deal with. However, I do not think it's a good thing, even if you are a sympathetic towards the LGBT community (or like me, have friends and family that are queer) to just blindly support everything, particularly in issues of health.So that's pretty much what I'm challenging - Why is it not okay to be a pretty girl with a penis? If we weren't so rigid on sexual identification, would this mean that sex reassignment surgery would become a much more rarer form of treatment? Would this be preferable? (I tend to think that it is due to the risk of complications)Basically, are we doing everything we can to make things okay for these people?


Yes, there is a problem with most cultures and having only a binary classification of gender, and applying biological sex to social gender.  The trouble with a binary system is that states are mutually exclusive.  While both of your examples could be rooted in self-esteem and alleviating depresion, the breast augmentation is more centered on appealing to one demographic within the culture while gender reassignment is about trying to be appealing in a social role to all members of a culture.

I have a bias here as a trans-woman.  I do not blindly support all matters of transition; some procedures seem downright ludicrous like the shaving of the adam's apple.  I do not support SRS if there is sufficient risk of health.  In regard to sexual function, it's relative to the sex life of the person in question.

I love this challenge.  I think people are trying to be too politically correct while adhering to antiquated views of gender and sex.  Your leading question is still appropriate; I think SRS would be rarer if society was willing to accept that gender is a spectrum rather than a binary assignment.  I have no problem with pretty women having a penis.  Variety is the spice of life.
 
2014-02-08 01:13:36 PM  

MechaPyx: Z-clipped: snocone: Z-clipped: snocone: Z-clipped: zippythechimp: Looks like a guy.

No more so than most runway models.  I think she's pretty.

Needs a samich.

You didn't watch the video. Her thighs are bigger around than mine.

Not really a thigh man.
Must be some.

If that---->    [newnownext.mtvnimages.com image 300x325]

Isn't curvy enough for you, you might be a chubby chaser, my friend.

I mean, come on:

[media-cache-ec0.pinimg.com image 550x733]

Geez she is beautiful. I admit I'm slightly jealous.

/ok maybe a lot jealous


They said there would be no math.
But, look up the Golden Rectangle(new pop jargon, Ratio).
Beautifully proportioned facial structure.
 
2014-02-08 01:14:53 PM  
As long as you keep the rubes confused as to what is gender and what is sex, there is MONEY to be made.
 
2014-02-08 01:15:14 PM  

brigid: I want you to try something for me. Imagine, in all the detail you can muster, that you have gone to sleep and woken up in a woman's body. Your mind is still male, but your body's not. You've got tits, but your little frepnog is gone. Instead you've got this squishy, soft, crinkly cave of mystery. And when you get aroused there's no boner. When you go outside, people say ma'am and miss instead of sir and dude and what have you. You try to correct them. "I'm not a girl!" They don't listen. 

You might try to compensate. Cut off your long girly hair, wear dude clothes, swagger as best you can with wide hips. Now, at best, they might think you're a baby butch lesbian and cue THOSE jokes.

You try to date, but straight guys will want to treat you like a girl and you'll be miserable with that, and gay guys won't be interested because you're a girl on the outside. And girls aren't interested because 1)if they're straight they don't want your female body and 2)if they're gay they don't want a man, even in female packaging.

The little things that guys get away with and girls don't will drive you mad. You'll protest that you're really a guy and nobody will believe yo

You'll try binding and packing to cope with the dysphoria (the disconnect and despair that comes from body and mind being out of sync with each other.) But when you go on a date, or try to have sex, the reality will slap you in the face again. That nice straight girl will run screaming from your pussy. And if she doesn't, you'll wonder if she's actually straight.You'll wonder if anyone can ...


socoolsochicsomode.files.wordpress.com
 
2014-02-08 01:17:57 PM  

brigid: frepnog: The My Little Pony Killer: TwistedFark: I can't understand why the genital mutilation needed to happen.

I can't understand the use of this phrasing by people who are honestly curious and want a question answered.

Why put the people best equipped to answer you on the defensive? What purpose does that serve?

how is cutting one's penis off not genital mutilation?

i can call a pop tart a cruller....  but it ain't.

I want you to try something for me...


i2.wp.com
 
2014-02-08 01:22:24 PM  

Z-clipped: I mean, come on:


looks like she had that asian smile surgery

i.huffpost.com
 
2014-02-08 01:26:05 PM  

MechaPyx: TwistedFark: So that's pretty much what I'm challenging - Why is it not okay to be a pretty girl with a penis? If we weren't so rigid on sexual identification, would this mean that sex reassignment surgery would become a much more rarer form of treatment? Would this be preferable? (I tend to think that it is due to the risk of complications)

If the surgery were perfected would you still feel the same way? If the success rates approached that for other cosmetic surgeries would this particular surgery still bother you? I agree current medical techniques are less than ideal. It has me rethinking things and considering alternatives but in an ideal world I would still want the surgery. I would never be truly happy with cognitive behavior therapy or other solutions.

Also this, Why is it not okay to be a pretty girl with a penis?. People in general tend to hold very rigid views about gender. Why can't a woman have a penis? Why can't a guy wear dresses and be pretty? People get so damned upset when others stray from their perception of normal though. I think the best thing would be if people were more relaxed and groovy about gender roles and expression. I honestly don't care if my driver's license has a little 'F' on it. I don't care which bathroom I have to use if people would just loosen up a little and relax.


Well, yes, my primary concern is that this surgery is terrible. Like I said, I've witnessed first hand what happens both physically and emotionally when it goes bad, and it goes bad about 40% of the time. It almost seems criminal to me that this is considered anything other than a last ditch attempt to treat someone who is suicidal.

To your second point below I 100% completely agree, society needs to lighten in this regard. I think in a vast majority of cases what is afflicting people isn't typical body-dysmorphia, but really people reacting to a society that is putting very rigid constraints on them that equates gender identity with sexual assignment.

If people/society won't let you have the identity of female simply because you have a weener hanging between your legs, then I can certainly see how someone would be pressured to do something about that!

One of the things that really makes me sad about this is that so many, well intentioned people, have such knee-jerk feelings about this subject. Just look at how they've accused me of trolling because I dare to have the audacity to question if a major surgery is the best form of treatment? Yes, I do admit that I used a loaded term, but it's clinically correct and I think it's okay to have to deal with that. It's not all rainbow and sunshine and unicorn farts, this is some pretty heavy stuff and not a decision that should be given a pass.

From my perspective, when you see an otherwise happy, caring and genuinely good individual try to take their life both before and after reassignment surgery, you start to think to yourself, "Hey - wait a minute here. Maybe there was a better way to help this person" and then you realize that it's a little too late for that as well. It's not a great feeling.
 
2014-02-08 01:28:05 PM  

TwistedFark: Well, yes, my primary concern is that this surgery is terrible. Like I said, I've witnessed first hand what happens both physically and emotionally when it goes bad, and it goes bad about 40% of the time. It almost seems criminal to me that this is considered anything other than a last ditch attempt to treat someone who is suicidal.


Citation needed.
 
2014-02-08 01:32:12 PM  
Are there any passing trans people in this thread, who find, that once they have transitioned and are passing, there is a whole new set of social problems?

Because both genders have negative social issues to deal with, in life.
 
2014-02-08 01:32:21 PM  

TwistedFark: Just look at how they've accused me of trolling because I dare to have the audacity to question if a major surgery is the best form of treatment? Yes, I do admit that I used a loaded term...


FTFY. No one was accusing you of trolling because you asked if surgery was the best form of treatment. People accused you of trolling because your use of the prejudicial term "mutilation".

And you know what happens now?

People will accuse you of trolling because you're attempting to rewrite history and pretend that everyone jumped on you for asking about treatment options, rather than using a loaded term. And they're right. You're a troll.

If you're not, then stop using loaded terms, and stop trying to pretend that people's outrage over your loaded terms is really outrage over something completely unrelated. Because anyone can scroll up and read your comments and theirs and see how you're lying.
 
2014-02-08 01:33:33 PM  
Meh, there was a trans-gender in an old James Bond movie decades ago, and yeah, she was hot. I've met women that look like men, wouldn't fark em. This chick, or whatever you want to call her, doesn't look like a man to me, you may only be seeing that because you know it.
 
2014-02-08 01:34:26 PM  

tinfoil-hat maggie: TwistedFark: Well, yes, my primary concern is that this surgery is terrible. Like I said, I've witnessed first hand what happens both physically and emotionally when it goes bad, and it goes bad about 40% of the time. It almost seems criminal to me that this is considered anything other than a last ditch attempt to treat someone who is suicidal.

Citation needed.


"Goes bad" meaning needs reoperation, and that 40% includes the initial treatment attempts back in the 70s. It's technically correct, in the same way that you could claim that brain surgery has a near 99% fatality rate if you include trepanning in ancient Egypt in your count.
 
2014-02-08 01:35:29 PM  
Link didn't work, maggie, but it's here:  http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/804432

However 40% of male-to-female patients experienced complications...The rate of reoperation declined from 45% in the first 20 patients to 30% in the second 20 patients.
 
2014-02-08 01:35:35 PM  
content9.flixster.com
Book her. Him. Whatever.
 
2014-02-08 01:36:18 PM  

tinfoil-hat maggie: TwistedFark: Well, yes, my primary concern is that this surgery is terrible. Like I said, I've witnessed first hand what happens both physically and emotionally when it goes bad, and it goes bad about 40% of the time. It almost seems criminal to me that this is considered anything other than a last ditch attempt to treat someone who is suicidal.

Citation needed.


Use Google. It's not a big secret, or an outlandish claim. If you want to parse the definition of "success rate" then feel free, but as a surgery SRS has a massive rate of follow-up surgery, nearly a third or greater operations require additional corrective operations due to complications. So some places will report the cite the "first surgery" success rate, or the "overall surgery" success rate. To be succinct, I am referencing the rate of success on the first operation. With multiple operations I believe the numbers go up to somewhere between 68 to 80 percent, which as any surgeon will tell you, is farking terrible.
 
2014-02-08 01:38:31 PM  

Theaetetus: TwistedFark: Just look at how they've accused me of trolling because I dare to have the audacity to question if a major surgery is the best form of treatment? Yes, I do admit that I used a loaded term...

FTFY. No one was accusing you of trolling because you asked if surgery was the best form of treatment. People accused you of trolling because your use of the prejudicial term "mutilation".

And you know what happens now?

People will accuse you of trolling because you're attempting to rewrite history and pretend that everyone jumped on you for asking about treatment options, rather than using a loaded term. And they're right. You're a troll.

If you're not, then stop using loaded terms, and stop trying to pretend that people's outrage over your loaded terms is really outrage over something completely unrelated. Because anyone can scroll up and read your comments and theirs and see how you're lying.


You need to read harder. I admitted like, what? Twice? To intentionally using the loaded term and not backing away from it.

It was my intention to provoke people - however is it trolling when I'm attempting to make a valid point?

/I know, everything you disagree with on the internet is trolling, but still...
 
2014-02-08 01:39:02 PM  

TwistedFark: If you want to parse the definition of "success rate" then feel free


I don't think it's really a huge stretch to say that most people would think that "success rate" means "likelihood of success for someone considering the surgery now", rather than "what is the overall success rate of attempts at this surgery over the past century". You know, people who aren't trying to be misleading about the statistics, that is.
 
2014-02-08 01:40:04 PM  

WeenerGord: Are there any passing trans people in this thread, who find, that once they have transitioned and are passing, there is a whole new set of social problems?

Because both genders have negative social issues to deal with, in life.


Life is truly a biatch.
Thinking that changing the game will help is not winning.
 
2014-02-08 01:43:27 PM  

TwistedFark: Theaetetus: TwistedFark: Just look at how they've accused me of trolling because I dare to have the audacity to question if a major surgery is the best form of treatment? Yes, I do admit that I used a loaded term...

FTFY. No one was accusing you of trolling because you asked if surgery was the best form of treatment. People accused you of trolling because your use of the prejudicial term "mutilation".

And you know what happens now?

People will accuse you of trolling because you're attempting to rewrite history and pretend that everyone jumped on you for asking about treatment options, rather than using a loaded term. And they're right. You're a troll.

If you're not, then stop using loaded terms, and stop trying to pretend that people's outrage over your loaded terms is really outrage over something completely unrelated. Because anyone can scroll up and read your comments and theirs and see how you're lying.

You need to read harder. I admitted like, what? Twice? To intentionally using the loaded term and not backing away from it.


No,  you need to "read harder". You claimed that people were calling you a troll because you "dared to question if a major surgery is the best form of treatment." That's a flat out lie, and you know it. It was over the use of a term that you admit is loaded. You even admit that you used that term specifically to be a troll: - "It was my intention to provoke people" -so don't try to pretend that when people were provoked by your trolling use of the term, they were  really just disagreeing with you about something else.
 
2014-02-08 01:45:51 PM  

Theaetetus: TwistedFark: If you want to parse the definition of "success rate" then feel free

I don't think it's really a huge stretch to say that most people would think that "success rate" means "likelihood of success for someone considering the surgery now", rather than "what is the overall success rate of attempts at this surgery over the past century". You know, people who aren't trying to be misleading about the statistics, that is.


You seem to believe I'm cherry picking here (for what reason, I have no idea). I assure you I'm not.

Also, at this point, I kind of think you're an asshole. So there is that.
 
2014-02-08 01:47:59 PM  

WeenerGord: Are there any passing trans people in this thread, who find, that once they have transitioned and are passing, there is a whole new set of social problems?

Because both genders have negative social issues to deal with, in life.


Trying to apply the ultimate standard of beauty is a fool's errand.  Having any knowledge of and experience with top shelf whiskey causes heads to turn.  I'm automatically supposed to know fashion and style.  I'm not supposed to be able to do math.  I'm expected to manipulate others to buy things for me.  Just because I'm trans doesn't mean my tits are huge or fake (b cup at the moment; might get bigger with continued hormones).
 
2014-02-08 01:51:04 PM  

TwistedFark: Theaetetus: TwistedFark: If you want to parse the definition of "success rate" then feel free

I don't think it's really a huge stretch to say that most people would think that "success rate" means "likelihood of success for someone considering the surgery now", rather than "what is the overall success rate of attempts at this surgery over the past century". You know, people who aren't trying to be misleading about the statistics, that is.

You seem to believe I'm cherry picking here (for what reason, I have no idea). I assure you I'm not.

Also, at this point, I kind of think you're an asshole. So there is that.


Oh, of course you do. After all, I called you on your shiat and wouldn't let you get away with trolling. Clearly, you're the real victim here and I'm an asshole, and not you, the guy lying about what other people said and slipping in statistics from the 1970s rather than looking at current numbers.  You can think I'm an asshole all you want. I doubt others would agree.
 
2014-02-08 01:54:19 PM  

Theaetetus: TwistedFark: Theaetetus: TwistedFark: If you want to parse the definition of "success rate" then feel free

I don't think it's really a huge stretch to say that most people would think that "success rate" means "likelihood of success for someone considering the surgery now", rather than "what is the overall success rate of attempts at this surgery over the past century". You know, people who aren't trying to be misleading about the statistics, that is.

You seem to believe I'm cherry picking here (for what reason, I have no idea). I assure you I'm not.

Also, at this point, I kind of think you're an asshole. So there is that.

Oh, of course you do. After all, I called you on your shiat and wouldn't let you get away with trolling. Clearly, you're the real victim here and I'm an asshole, and not you, the guy lying about what other people said and slipping in statistics from the 1970s rather than looking at current numbers.  You can think I'm an asshole all you want. I doubt others would agree.


What shiat did you call me on? All I see is that you took umbrage at a word I used. You haven't addressed anything about my question?
 
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