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(International Business Times)   The head of the Mormon church is to appear before court on charges of fraud for basically making people believe in religion   (ibtimes.co.uk) divider line 63
    More: Interesting, Mormon Church, City of Westminster Magistrates' Court, AUB, Israelites, Book of Mormon  
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9497 clicks; posted to Main » on 05 Feb 2014 at 9:54 AM (51 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



Voting Results (Smartest)
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest

2014-02-05 09:47:21 AM  
7 votes:
In fact, drag them all in. All the heads of churches. Tell them prove it or STFU.
And you're being taxed, now, assholes.
Lying sacks.
2014-02-05 10:22:09 AM  
5 votes:
The LDS money stream is pretty astounding.  No other church gets anything close to 10% reliably. Virtually none of that is spent locally.  A common US ward will be bringing in maybe $500k a year in tithes, all of which they send to SLC. The ward will get maybe $20k of that sent back (to pay the electric bill and feed the copier). The bishop (= minister in other churches) isn't paid. They don't even usually pay a janitor (people are volunteered).  The larger church did pay for building the meetinghouse.

The temples aren't that expensive. The missionaries aren't that expensive either (they're supposed to pay for their own flights and food).  Their charity work is average at best (you're more likely to run into a Mennonite relief group in a disaster than a Mormon, at 1/100th the budget).

But, Desert Industries owns hundreds of for-profit shopping centers and millions of acres of for-profit farm/ranchland, so that's nice.
2014-02-05 09:59:31 AM  
5 votes:
Here is the problem with starting a new religion based on artifacts you claim to have seen yourself. Eventually someone will demand to see these artifacts.
2014-02-05 09:49:00 AM  
5 votes:
When the mob demands protection money from someone we call it racketeering.

When a church demands protection money from someone we call it religion.
2014-02-05 10:50:16 AM  
4 votes:
I just finished reading Under the Banner of Heaven by Jon Krakauer.  Mormons are strange, but fundamentalist Mormons are downright insane.
2014-02-05 10:30:22 AM  
4 votes:

rnatalie: And I Believe; that in 1978 God changed his mind about black people!


There seems to be a recent campaign by the Mormon church where they are addressing these "issues".  Basically they are now saying that Brigham Young was a racist dick (because everyone was a racist dick back then) and that the teachings on blacks were his personal views and not those of God or the church.

It's really convenient when you can, after the fact, pick and choose from the countless statements your prophets made  were their personal opinion and which ones where they were God's Personal Mouthpiece.  Joseph Smith tells people that Quakers live on the moon?  He was speaking as a man.  No coffee?  That's from God.  Brigham Young says that the punishment for interracial relationships is death on the spot?  His "opinion".  Every man should have a handful of wives?  God's idea (but for a limited time only).

When you closely look at Mormonism with its wacky secret handshakes and magic underwear, and it's highly improbable story of ancient Jews living in America with horses and steel (which nobody can find traces of now) and then turn that same critical lens onto more established and accepted religions you begin to see that they are all suspect.  It's just that, compared to the Mormon upstarts, the others have a 2000-year old veneer of respectability covering their blatant flaws.
2014-02-05 10:05:10 AM  
4 votes:
If you want to give 10% of your income to a flim flam artist, you'd think we'd at least tax the flim flam artist.
2014-02-05 10:00:55 AM  
4 votes:

Diogenes: When the mob demands protection money from someone we call it racketeering.

When a church demands protection money from someone we call it religion.


Yeah, but the church threatens imaginary parts of you with imaginary punishments. The mob will actually hurt you.

If you give the former real money for protection from imaginary things, then you're a sucker.
2014-02-05 10:13:28 AM  
3 votes:
I Believe; that the Lord, God, created the universe 
I Believe; that He sent His only Son to die for my sins 
And I Believe; that ancient Jews built boats and sailed to America 

I Believe; that God has a plan for all of us 
I Believe; that plan involves me getting my own planet 
And I Believe; that the current President of The Church, Thomas Modson, speaks directly to God 

I Believe; that Satan has a hold of you 
I Believe; that the Lord, God, has sent me here 
And I Believe; that in 1978 God changed his mind about black people! 
2014-02-05 10:08:32 AM  
3 votes:
The UK, which has an official Christian church, is hearing a case in which someone is complaining that religion is untrue?

as well as a claim that all humans alive today are descended from "just two people (Adam and Eve) who lived approximately 6,000 years ago".

If a court finds that this claim is untrue, how would that affect other Abrahamic religious organizations that have presence in the UK?
2014-02-05 06:01:55 PM  
2 votes:

Donkey Hodie: I've been a ward finance clerk for several different wards, and while some of the mormons in this thread are telling the truth, they aren't telling the complete truth.  But, some the non-mormon accusations are not exactly fully true, either.

Annually, usually in December, each member has to meet with their bishop, who is the local congregation leader.  The bishop provides a printout of all their donations throughout the year, and asks them, "Does this represent a full tithe?"  Then their answer is recorded, and ultimately sent to SLC along with the amounts and answers of everyone else in the ward.  It's not official policy, but some bishops preach their personal opinion that tithing is based on gross income.  Some mormons think gross income must be tithed, others think net (after taxes) income, and a rare few even think the original wording means you tithe on whatever is left over after all your living expenses are paid first.  But generally, most think it's on gross income, even though "officially" it is left up to the individual to decide what his "increase" was, and if his tithing donations represent a full tithe of it.

To get in the temple, the question is asked, "Do you pay a full tithe?"  Also, "Are you honest in all your dealings?"  Usually the same bishop who interviews you for your tithing settlement (annual tithing status check) is one of the same two who interview you for a temple recommend.  So while it's not technically true that they check the amount of tithing you pay at the door of the temple, you must declare that you are a full tithe payer to your bishop, who sees the amount you donated, and then that amount and your declaration does get sent to SLC, and he is one of the two people who sign the temple recommend.  I suppose it's possible to lie about your tithing status to get a temple recommend, but the bishop lives in your same neighborhood, and has a pretty good idea if you are an honest, full tithe payer or not based on how much you pay, and w ...


That's exactly what I said. The Bishop has a printout of donations that the church received. They didn't get that from the individual, the ward financial clerk compiled it from their own records. The ONLY thing the individual is required to provide is a yes or no answer during the interviews, and no financial records beyond that. This is 100% true. There is no requirement of a statement of income. Even if the bishop suspects they're lying, he is not allowed to withhold the recommend based on that suspicion. That's just how it works.
2014-02-05 05:40:38 PM  
2 votes:
After thinking about it, I wonder how this could possibly hold up. I'm agnostic, and I think Mormon religious dogma, is, of course, complete baloney, but so is the dogma of every other religion. Are we really supposed to believe that communion wine is magically changed into the blood of Christ or that Noah fit two of every animal on Earth into an Ark, or that humanity began 6,000 years ago.? Mormonism's bullshiat may be bullshiattier, but if they're going to call them out for it, why not call all of 'em out?

And then we get to the 10% tithe part. Problem is, Mormonism is not the only religion that does this. Islam does this too. Paying Zakat is mandatory in Islam. So at best you could say that the difference is that Mormonism's core tenets are provably wrong and it requires a tithe, but that's a pretty fine distinction and I'm not sure it would hold up anyways, since it seems highly likely that there are also segments of the Quran and other holy books that are directly contradicted by modern science.

So, all jokes aside, I'm going to go ahead and say that people ought to be able to believe in whatever religious mumbo-jumbo they want to believe, and summoning the head of a major religious sect to court for fraud based on his church doctrine is ludicrous.

If someone has a counter-argument though I'd legitimately like to hear it, because I'm no expert on Mormonism. And no, I don't think "Prosecute all religions for fraud" is a good idea.
2014-02-05 03:41:18 PM  
2 votes:

Satanic_Hamster: Akambe: Well, false. Curious where you heard this, but temple attendance requires, among many other things, adherence to the law of tithing, which is defined as "10% of your income." That's as specific as the definition gets, honest. There's no releasing of any personal financial statement to the church, jeez. Once a year, you're asked to tell your bishop whether you're a full, partial, or non-tithe payer. That declaration itself isn't even tracked, and it's completely subject to your own interpretation of what "10% of your income" even means.

To enter the temple, yes, you need a "temple recommend." That's a separate interview with church leaders that asks you if you're a full tithe payer. They don't correlate that with anything you've previously "declared," they're basically asking if you're currently a tithe payer.

At no point do you even declare what your income is.

Annnnnnnd that is a lie.  I've known many Mormons who were required to give financial information to their temple.  I know of several instances where the Mormons have sought an employees salary information from where I've worked.

Now, this might not happen to every single Mormon, but there are temples that do this.  I assume it's mainly in cases where they suspect a person might be lying/cheating on their tithe or maybe that particular temple is having cash flow problems?


Been going to the temple off and on for over 20 years in several states and more than one country. Anyone that's telling you the church validates the information given during the recommend interview is either mentally ill or lying. Don't get me wrong, I know there's some members of the Church that have abused their calling (volunteer position within the Church) to take advantage of their congregation, but those are isolated incidents that tend to get a lot of press. I guess I'm not saying it's impossible, but it's certainly outside the mandate and acceptable behavior for those that approve entry into the Temple. Heaven only knows how many people I've seen go to the temple when I knew they weren't living up to what's required by the interview and I've even gone when I wasn't exactly up to standard. If you're willing to lie to your Bishop/Stake President you can get in, regardless of how you're living.

I've been involved on the interviewing side and the "check the recommend at the door" side as well. There's simply no evidence for your assertions, and the cases that I can find where something even remotely similar to what you describe happened the people responsible were disciplined and in at least one case charges were filed.

We get bashed pretty thoroughly here on Fark, and I can definitely see where some of it is self-inflicted but I really don't like outright fabrication. Maybe you're confusing a different group that's seeking salary information from your employer for "the Mormons"? I've worked on the Management/HR side at several companies and I can't imagine any legitimate company giving up that kind of information to someone calling from a Church anyhow........

Your statement "it's mainly in cases where they suspect a person might be lying/cheating on their tithe or maybe that particular temple is having cash flow problems?" also reveals a fundamental flaw in your understanding of how the Church works. All offerings in the Church are managed centrally. Unlike many other religions there's no such thing as a single location having "cash flow problems", especially since the only thing the Church pays for, generally, is the building and utilities. If one Ward needs something they get it from the Stake they belong to, and if the Stake has issues it comes from the Region etc.

None of the Wards/Stakes/Temples etc. are independent, and all of the leadership is done by volunteers. There are manuals with guidelines for how the organization should be run (like a McDonalds, really) and any volunteer leader who steps too far from the guidelines (for example by researching someone's income) isn't going to last long in the Church, let alone their position of leadership.

Again, there have been exceptions, but they're definitely outliers based on what I can find. If you have any evidence to the contrary other than anecdotes I'd love to see/hear/read it.
Ant
2014-02-05 01:41:13 PM  
2 votes:

Pokey.Clyde: Oh look. Another religion bashing thread on Fark. How original.


Religion was asking for it
2014-02-05 10:45:28 AM  
2 votes:

Latinwolf: I wasn't aware that the church and the mob provided any kind of services to the public


all those hospitals with 'Saint' in the name - you may want to look up who runs/founded them.
2014-02-05 10:41:26 AM  
2 votes:

Kozaru: rnatalie: And I Believe; that in 1978 God changed his mind about black people!

There seems to be a recent campaign by the Mormon church where they are addressing these "issues".  Basically they are now saying that Brigham Young was a racist dick (because everyone was a racist dick back then) and that the teachings on blacks were his personal views and not those of God or the church.

It's really convenient when you can, after the fact, pick and choose from the countless statements your prophets made  were their personal opinion and which ones where they were God's Personal Mouthpiece.  Joseph Smith tells people that Quakers live on the moon?  He was speaking as a man.  No coffee?  That's from God.  Brigham Young says that the punishment for interracial relationships is death on the spot?  His "opinion".  Every man should have a handful of wives?  God's idea (but for a limited time only).

When you closely look at Mormonism with its wacky secret handshakes and magic underwear, and it's highly improbable story of ancient Jews living in America with horses and steel (which nobody can find traces of now) and then turn that same critical lens onto more established and accepted religions you begin to see that they are all suspect.  It's just that, compared to the Mormon upstarts, the others have a 2000-year old veneer of respectability covering their blatant flaws.


I grew up in a Mormon family and escaped as soon as I was old enough to leave the house.  I still talk to some of my family though.
According to my sister in law the church is apparently going through some of the same political pressure regarding gay couples and the eventual legalization of gay marriage throughout the US and rest of the world.  Did you know you can be a gay member of the church as long as you remain celibate?  Oh and give your required 10 percent tithe.  I did the biggest quizzical dog face when I heard that.

The Mormon church is a business.  A successful one at that.  If political and societal pressure threaten that revenue stream, they will find it convenient to say The Lord revealed that such-and-such is now hunky-dory.

Hell, maybe I should sue the church too for all of the therapy I had to go through to undo the brainwashing.  It's the biggest crock of shiat religion on the face of the Earth.
2014-02-05 10:37:16 AM  
2 votes:

CleanAndPure: Kozaru

All religions do that. Xianity is all about convenience and picking the parts you want to believe in.


Yes all religion is made up BS, but Mormonism being a new religion whose founding occurred during a recent period when we have accurate historical records just makes it all the more laughable.
2014-02-05 10:21:08 AM  
2 votes:
Oh look. Another religion bashing thread on Fark. How original.
2014-02-05 10:19:24 AM  
2 votes:
So much trouble would have been avoided if Jesus had just taken a few moments to address stupid.
2014-02-05 10:08:25 AM  
2 votes:

flucto: by all means, put on your sanctimonious panties and get them as tightly wadded as you like, but this goes nowhere.


The fact that it's gone this far is bad enough.
2014-02-05 10:02:45 AM  
2 votes:
by all means, put on your sanctimonious panties and get them as tightly wadded as you like, but this goes nowhere.
2014-02-05 06:50:56 PM  
1 votes:
Jews believe that Moses parted the sea.


img.fark.net

Christians believe Jesus could walk on water.
img.fark.net

Buddhists believe that Buddha was protected by a five headed snake king.
img.fark.net

Catholics believe that John Paul II cured a woman's Parkinson's disease, months after he was dead.
img.fark.net

Hindus believed their statues could drink milk.
img.fark.net

Muslins believe that Mohamed was taken into heaven by Buraq and the angel Gabriel.
img.fark.net

All of these religions teach miracles as truth and all of them receive money from their worshipers.  Convincing a court of law that the leaders of the Mormon church are committing fraud by teaching their believers that Mormon specific miracles really did happen and to donate money to their religion isn't going to work.  Every religion does that.  If the law is going to treat everyone equally then you'd have to arrest every leader of every religion and have them all sued for fraud.  While I'm sure there are some of you on Fark who would love to see that happen, it isn't very likely.
2014-02-05 06:04:28 PM  
1 votes:
Psycat: BTW, isn't it funny that "Mormon" and "Moroni" are both one letter away from "Moron"?  It's as if Joseph Smith was a snake-oil salesman (and pedophile) and this is an inside joke that showed his real contempt for the suckers who bought his bullshiat?

Nah, the real interesting bit is that Joseph Smith was a fan of the Captain Kidd myth, and where did Captain Kidd supposedly hide his treasure?  The Comoros Islands, in the city of Moroni.  It's just a coincidence that Joseph Smith later found the gold plates in the hill he later said was named Cummorah, given to him by the angel Moroni.  Just a coincidence, folks.  Nothing to see here, move along.
2014-02-05 05:55:00 PM  
1 votes:
I've been a ward finance clerk for several different wards, and while some of the mormons in this thread are telling the truth, they aren't telling the complete truth.  But, some the non-mormon accusations are not exactly fully true, either.

Annually, usually in December, each member has to meet with their bishop, who is the local congregation leader.  The bishop provides a printout of all their donations throughout the year, and asks them, "Does this represent a full tithe?"  Then their answer is recorded, and ultimately sent to SLC along with the amounts and answers of everyone else in the ward.  It's not official policy, but some bishops preach their personal opinion that tithing is based on gross income.  Some mormons think gross income must be tithed, others think net (after taxes) income, and a rare few even think the original wording means you tithe on whatever is left over after all your living expenses are paid first.  But generally, most think it's on gross income, even though "officially" it is left up to the individual to decide what his "increase" was, and if his tithing donations represent a full tithe of it.

To get in the temple, the question is asked, "Do you pay a full tithe?"  Also, "Are you honest in all your dealings?"  Usually the same bishop who interviews you for your tithing settlement (annual tithing status check) is one of the same two who interview you for a temple recommend.  So while it's not technically true that they check the amount of tithing you pay at the door of the temple, you must declare that you are a full tithe payer to your bishop, who sees the amount you donated, and then that amount and your declaration does get sent to SLC, and he is one of the two people who sign the temple recommend.  I suppose it's possible to lie about your tithing status to get a temple recommend, but the bishop lives in your same neighborhood, and has a pretty good idea if you are an honest, full tithe payer or not based on how much you pay, and what house he sees you living in and what kind of a car you drive.  If he suspects you are lying he can deny or postpone your temple recommend.
2014-02-05 04:42:16 PM  
1 votes:
BTW, I was flying home from Newark International a couple of years ago and had an Evangelical as a seat mate.  He was returning from Poland where he apparently spent some time as a missionary telling these fiercely Catholic people that they were going to Hell for believing in the wrong kind of Christianity--and was wondering why he failed to convert anybody.

He did his best Campus Crusade shtick on me the entire flight after I told him politely that I was an apostate from Christianity.  He threw everything at me--Pascal's Wager, C.S. Lewis' Trilemma, First Cause Argument--and I soundly (but politely) refuted the bejabbers out of him during the 3-hour flight.  After the flight, he looked disheveled as if he went 15 rounds against Mike Tyson, and I was in a cheerful mood, wishing him and his wife a safe drive home.

His fatal flaw?  He was intelligent enough to understand when I refuted him.  A true fanatic never loses an argument because it takes a modicum of intelligence to realize when one has been refuted.  It's the religious proselytizers who are capable of some reasoning ability who are the most vulnerable.

BTW, does anybody know how the Bill Nye vs. Ham on Wry debate went?  I was hoping the Science Guy did well, but feared that simply by engaging the flat-earth fool in debate, he had lost the debate even before it started...
2014-02-05 04:32:04 PM  
1 votes:

OnlyM3: Egoy3k

It's nice to take a break from bashing furries, transgender kids, the GOP, the DNC, Canada, America, Russia, Japanese culture, gamers, Justin Beiber, television, non television watchers, gays, straights, McDonalds, Olive Garden, hipsters, rednecks, white people, black people, gun owners, gun grabbers, hunters, PETA, nuclear power, coal power, natural gas, wind turbines, anti-vaxxers, etc etc etc and come back to the classics every so often.Citation please

It's amusing to watch farkers proudly being bigots against this group, then rabidly defend islam... the religion that openly preaches murder, rape and oppression of women and slam anyone who criticizes them.


Nice try dude I'm not falling for your bullshiat.
2014-02-05 03:32:54 PM  
1 votes:

Satanic_Hamster: Akambe: Well, false. Curious where you heard this, but temple attendance requires, among many other things, adherence to the law of tithing, which is defined as "10% of your income." That's as specific as the definition gets, honest. There's no releasing of any personal financial statement to the church, jeez. Once a year, you're asked to tell your bishop whether you're a full, partial, or non-tithe payer. That declaration itself isn't even tracked, and it's completely subject to your own interpretation of what "10% of your income" even means.

To enter the temple, yes, you need a "temple recommend." That's a separate interview with church leaders that asks you if you're a full tithe payer. They don't correlate that with anything you've previously "declared," they're basically asking if you're currently a tithe payer.

At no point do you even declare what your income is.

Annnnnnnd that is a lie.  I've known many Mormons who were required to give financial information to their temple.  I know of several instances where the Mormons have sought an employees salary information from where I've worked.

Now, this might not happen to every single Mormon, but there are temples that do this.  I assume it's mainly in cases where they suspect a person might be lying/cheating on their tithe or maybe that particular temple is having cash flow problems?


Most of these statements don't even make sense. "The Temple" doesn't get information about a member's financial situation, at all. All the do is check to make sure they're holding the correct piece of paper and that it's not expired.

Particular temples don't have cash flow problems. They don't have individual cash flow. Every one of them is supported by the central church offices.

There are two people who hand out the recommend to enter the temple: the Bishop and a member of the Stake Presidency. They ask "Are you a full tithe payer?", and the person answers yes or no. There is no further documentation required. According to the handbook, neither of these two people are even ALLOWED to ask any more than that initial question. It's against policy.

If your bolded statement is actually true, every single instance of that happening was a violation of the church's protocol. You should report them.
2014-02-05 02:40:05 PM  
1 votes:

Akambe: Well, false. Curious where you heard this, but temple attendance requires, among many other things, adherence to the law of tithing, which is defined as "10% of your income." That's as specific as the definition gets, honest. There's no releasing of any personal financial statement to the church, jeez. Once a year, you're asked to tell your bishop whether you're a full, partial, or non-tithe payer. That declaration itself isn't even tracked, and it's completely subject to your own interpretation of what "10% of your income" even means.

To enter the temple, yes, you need a "temple recommend." That's a separate interview with church leaders that asks you if you're a full tithe payer. They don't correlate that with anything you've previously "declared," they're basically asking if you're currently a tithe payer.

At no point do you even declare what your income is.


Annnnnnnd that is a lie.  I've known many Mormons who were required to give financial information to their temple.  I know of several instances where the Mormons have sought an employees salary information from where I've worked.

Now, this might not happen to every single Mormon, but there are temples that do this.  I assume it's mainly in cases where they suspect a person might be lying/cheating on their tithe or maybe that particular temple is having cash flow problems?
2014-02-05 01:56:29 PM  
1 votes:
I'm not a believer.  So requiring a tithe to me seems like a protection racket.  And LDS is particularly egregious because they really demand it. You can't even step foot in the local LDS temple until you release a financial statement to the church.

Well, false. Curious where you heard this, but temple attendance requires, among many other things, adherence to the law of tithing, which is defined as "10% of your income." That's as specific as the definition gets, honest. There's no releasing of any personal financial statement to the church, jeez. Once a year, you're asked to tell your bishop whether you're a full, partial, or non-tithe payer. That declaration itself isn't even tracked, and it's completely subject to your own interpretation of what "10% of your income" even  means.

To enter the temple, yes, you need a "temple recommend." That's a separate interview with church leaders that asks you if you're a full tithe payer. They don't correlate that with anything you've previously "declared," they're basically asking if you're currently a tithe payer.

At no point do you even declare what your income is.
2014-02-05 01:44:48 PM  
1 votes:

feffer: Abortion is forbidden in all circumstances.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Excommunication_of_Margaret_McBride


Not true by your own link:

Appel wrote that, "Like many Catholic hospitals, St. Joseph's has long had two conflicting policies regarding maternal-fetal conflict on its books. One directive states that abortion is never permitted, even to save the life of the mother, while the other notes that 'operations, treatments and medications that have as their direct purpose the cure of a proportionately serious pathological condition of a pregnant woman are permitted...even if they will result in the death of the unborn child....Until this recent incident, pregnant women could safely assume that Catholic hospitals would follow both the law and widespread standards of medical ethics in allowing the second directive to trump the first. Suddenly, that time-honored understanding appears to be in jeopardy."

Emphasis mine
Ant
2014-02-05 01:28:13 PM  
1 votes:

Tom_Slick: Here is the problem with starting a new religion based on artifacts you claim to have seen yourself. Eventually someone will demand to see these artifacts.


STOP PERSECUTING ME!!!!!
2014-02-05 12:33:13 PM  
1 votes:
Well, after the right honourable magistrate is done with the LDS--and they should be done--she can start with the Church of England next.

I'd say the Catholic Church next but the first head of the COE already did a lot of the dirty work on the Minions of the Antichrist in This Our Beloved EnglandTM.

/I bet the magistrate didn't think the cunning plan through. But she'll get a phone call and this kerfuffle will all go away
/Or is she going to take on the Muslins next?
2014-02-05 12:29:56 PM  
1 votes:
My issue with the Latter Day Saints can be summed up simply by the name of their principle prophet, later resurrected to hand over golden tablets that only Joseph Smith ever "read" and then "returned" the plates to said angel: Moroni.

Moron is the name of said angel and prophet.

Why, yes, I DO think of the entirety of the Mormon organization as a vast con job, as much as I think of Scientology as a vast con job. Or the f*cking Nichiren--though, at the Nichiren have some loose basis with a faith that has some history, as opposed to being created whole cloth for the express purpose of getting sweet, sweet, sweet valuta from rubes. And keeping daughters close to home and compliant, so they got that going for them.

Don't get me wrong: folks can use the lessons from the Book of Mormon to live productive, even useful and decent lives, and I hope that their belief gives them comfort, but it doesn't distract me from the vast con job that is the Church of Latter Day Saints. As a younger man, I hung out with enough carnies and grifters to have an appreciation for a good con, and can even admire a good con for the art, especially when applied to those who desperately cry out to be rooked and swindled with wild abandon, and it keeps a lot of folks off the streets I suppose, but the LDS does a lot of damage not just to their followers, but to the communities around them, and what the Mormons have done in Utah, I can easily see Scientologists working their way towards in California if given the chance and another hundred years to settle in. Both are brilliant scams, in that they give just enough encouragement, and likewise are draconian in their control, and both are equally dangerous to their followers and the folks near them.
2014-02-05 12:04:58 PM  
1 votes:

machodonkeywrestler: Get the fark off fark if you're just going to whine. It's getting tiring


Good thing Fark.com is run according to your personal tastes and political preferences. I'm sure the mods will have him cleaned up in no time.
2014-02-05 11:53:00 AM  
1 votes:

TheSubjunctive: The LDS money stream is pretty astounding.  No other church gets anything close to 10% reliably. Virtually none of that is spent locally.  A common US ward will be bringing in maybe $500k a year in tithes, all of which they send to SLC. The ward will get maybe $20k of that sent back (to pay the electric bill and feed the copier). The bishop (= minister in other churches) isn't paid. They don't even usually pay a janitor (people are volunteered).  The larger church did pay for building the meetinghouse.

The temples aren't that expensive. The missionaries aren't that expensive either (they're supposed to pay for their own flights and food).  Their charity work is average at best (you're more likely to run into a Mennonite relief group in a disaster than a Mormon, at 1/100th the budget).

But, Desert Industries owns hundreds of for-profit shopping centers and millions of acres of for-profit farm/ranchland, so that's nice.


RottNDude: I grew up in a Mormon family and escaped as soon as I was old enough to leave the house. I still talk to some of my family though.
According to my sister in law the church is apparently going through some of the same political pressure regarding gay couples and the eventual legalization of gay marriage throughout the US and rest of the world. Did you know you can be a gay member of the church as long as you remain celibate? Oh and give your required 10 percent tithe. I did the biggest quizzical dog face when I heard that.

The Mormon church is a business. A successful one at that. If political and societal pressure threaten that revenue stream, they will find it convenient to say The Lord revealed that such-and-such is now hunky-dory.

Hell, maybe I should sue the church too for all of the therapy I had to go through to undo the brainwashing. It's the biggest crock of shiat religion on the face of the Earth.


TRUTH .... ALL OF IT...EVERY SINGLE WORD OF THIS!!

/Married to a Mormon for 22 years
//Not Mormon
2014-02-05 11:46:04 AM  
1 votes:

Diogenes: When the mob demands protection money from someone we call it racketeering.

When a church demands protection money from someone we call it religion.


You left out unions for some reason...
2014-02-05 11:35:34 AM  
1 votes:
It's pretty simple.

MY religion is the One True Word of God®.

YOUR religion is a pack of lies.
2014-02-05 11:32:22 AM  
1 votes:
True Believing Mormons, or TBM's for short, are some of the most off-puttingly whitest people I've ever encountered. As in, "Stepped out of a 50s sitcom" white. They're also hugely passive-aggressive and repressed.

/Served with many in the Air Force.
2014-02-05 11:26:03 AM  
1 votes:
Diogenes:Difference being the police protect you from threats they don't deliberately create.

Now who's being naive, Kay.
2014-02-05 11:25:00 AM  
1 votes:

machodonkeywrestler: Diogenes: bigdanc: Diogenes: van1ty: Diogenes: When the mob demands protection money from someone we call it racketeering.

When a church demands protection money from someone we call it religion.

When the government demands taxes to pay for police services, and arrests you if you don't pay them, it's called life.

Difference being the police protect you from threats they don't deliberately create.

Thats a stretch because youre asserting the church knows its beliefs on spirituality to be false

You can believe what you want to or feel you must believe.

I'm not a believer.  So requiring a tithe to me seems like a protection racket.  And LDS is particularly egregious because they really demand it.

You can't even step foot in the local LDS temple until you release a financial statement to the church.

You can't set foot in an NFL stadium unless you've bought a ticket......


Team members usually don't need to purchase tickets.
2014-02-05 11:22:19 AM  
1 votes:
I imagine whoever decided that the lawsuit could go forward had to belong to a rival religion, otherwise they'd read the list of charges, say "Yep, sounds like typical religious bullshiat, can't legislate against that" and throw it out.
2014-02-05 11:16:52 AM  
1 votes:

CheatCommando: Yeah, they've never denied an abortion to a woman and let her die in agony to appease their zombie god.


You will notice that there is an Inquest on this and hopefully, they will update their policy to make sure that this never happens again.  Like I said hospital care needs to address critical conditions to the best of their ability.  If that requires an abortion to save the mother, that is a pretty straightforward decision.  This one case does not mean that this is standard practice, either.
2014-02-05 11:07:59 AM  
1 votes:

angryjd: Diogenes: When the mob demands protection money from someone we call it racketeering.


When a church demands protection money from someone we call it religion.


When the government demands protection money we call it taxes.


When you don't pay and the cops show up to your house with a SWAT team, kill your dogs, and turn your house inside out, some people call it "being civilized".
2014-02-05 10:55:00 AM  
1 votes:

CheatCommando: You mean the ones that routinely deny women critical care so that they can stay right with their god?


Not aware of them denying trauma or ER care to any women here.  Source please.  Pretty sure that treating women in critical condition is consistent with their mission statement.

If you are talking about abortion (in which the 'critical' part is pretty laughable), there are plenty of places where one can get this outside of these hospitals.
2014-02-05 10:50:47 AM  
1 votes:

HeadLever: Latinwolf: I wasn't aware that the church and the mob provided any kind of services to the public

all those hospitals with 'Saint' in the name - you may want to look up who runs/founded them.


You mean the ones that routinely deny women critical care so that they can stay right with their god?
2014-02-05 10:47:51 AM  
1 votes:

CleanAndPure: Kozaru

All religions do that. Xianity is all about convenience and picking the parts you want to believe in.


You mean like politics?

sanderspoli323.files.wordpress.com


lh3.ggpht.com
2014-02-05 10:47:27 AM  
1 votes:

Kozaru: rnatalie: And I Believe; that in 1978 God changed his mind about black people!

There seems to be a recent campaign by the Mormon church where they are addressing these "issues".  Basically they are now saying that Brigham Young was a racist dick (because everyone was a racist dick back then) and that the teachings on blacks were his personal views and not those of God or the church.

It's really convenient when you can, after the fact, pick and choose from the countless statements your prophets made  were their personal opinion and which ones where they were God's Personal Mouthpiece.  Joseph Smith tells people that Quakers live on the moon?  He was speaking as a man.  No coffee?  That's from God.


The JWs are pretty good at that crap, too. Take their past prophecy dates, the ones when Jesus did not, in fact, show up. These are now explained as "gradual revelation", whatever the f*ck that's supposed to mean.

My mother-in-law buys into that crap. A couple of months back, she was all excited about a "new revelation" that had been announced at her Kingdom Hall.

The revelation was twofold. Ready?

1) Only a few (anonymous) people in the upper echelons of the JW hierarchy have the authority to interpret God's will.

2) This is a very great responsibility for them, because they will have to answer to God if they get anything wrong.

As divine revelations go, that one seems pretty lame and self-serving. But then, I'm not "walking in the Truth," so what do I know? (Hell, I'm not even afraid of Smurfs.)
2014-02-05 10:42:48 AM  
1 votes:

markfara: So much trouble would have been avoided if Jesus had just taken a few moments to address stupid.


You never get to be a majority religion by throwing out the stupid. They are your natural market.
2014-02-05 10:42:12 AM  
1 votes:

genner: redmid17: The head of the Mormon church is to appear before court on charges of fraud for basically making people believe in religionMormonism

FTFY. The two are different.

 If they can do this to Mormons they can do it to any religion.


You say that as if it's a bad thing.
2014-02-05 10:42:10 AM  
1 votes:

Marcus Aurelius: If you want to give 10% of your income to a flim flam artist, you'd think we'd at least tax the flim flam artist.





Only 10%. Heck some flim-flam artists ask for more:

obeygiant.com
2014-02-05 10:37:57 AM  
1 votes:

Pokey.Clyde: Oh look. Another religion bashing thread on Fark. How original.


It's nice to take a break from bashing furries, transgender kids, the GOP, the DNC, Canada, America, Russia, Japanese culture, gamers, Justin Beiber, television, non television watchers, gays, straights, McDonalds, Olive Garden, hipsters, rednecks, white people, black people, gun owners, gun grabbers, hunters, PETA, nuclear power, coal power, natural gas, wind turbines, anti-vaxxers, etc etc etc and come back to the classics every so often.
2014-02-05 10:36:22 AM  
1 votes:

van1ty: Diogenes: When the mob demands protection money from someone we call it racketeering.

When a church demands protection money from someone we call it religion.

When the government demands taxes to pay for police services, and arrests you if you don't pay them, it's called life.


I wasn't aware that the church and the mob provided any kind of services to the public.
2014-02-05 10:35:57 AM  
1 votes:
Amen Subby
2014-02-05 10:34:18 AM  
1 votes:
Kozaru

All religions do that. Xianity is all about convenience and picking the parts you want to believe in.
2014-02-05 10:29:27 AM  
1 votes:

redmid17: The head of the Mormon church is to appear before court on charges of fraud for basically making people believe in religionMormonism

FTFY. The two are different.


 If they can do this to Mormons they can do it to any religion.
2014-02-05 10:28:47 AM  
1 votes:

OccamsWhiskers: Is this basically like the US, where anyone can sue anyone for anything?

All the major religions are founded on laughably untrue claims, but I don't think those can or should be settled in a civil or criminal trial.


But in this story it's not so much the truth or falsity of the spiritual claims, but the money.  You want a nice place in our church?  Pay up.
2014-02-05 10:28:41 AM  
1 votes:
Wonder when they will go against Scilons. I'd love to see David Miscavige on a witness stand... but then again, there are a lot of questions about how they got their tax exempt status, especially after their "Snow White" "operation".

/way too lazy to have links
2014-02-05 10:26:52 AM  
1 votes:

bigdanc: Diogenes: van1ty: Diogenes: When the mob demands protection money from someone we call it racketeering.

When a church demands protection money from someone we call it religion.

When the government demands taxes to pay for police services, and arrests you if you don't pay them, it's called life.

Difference being the police protect you from threats they don't deliberately create.

Thats a stretch because youre asserting the church knows its beliefs on spirituality to be false


You can believe what you want to or feel you must believe.

I'm not a believer.  So requiring a tithe to me seems like a protection racket.  And LDS is particularly egregious because they really demand it.

You can't even step foot in the local LDS temple until you release a financial statement to the church.
2014-02-05 10:22:36 AM  
1 votes:
Wait a second, in the UK you can sue a religion based on its historical accuracy?
2014-02-05 10:20:47 AM  
1 votes:

Diogenes: van1ty: Diogenes: When the mob demands protection money from someone we call it racketeering.

When a church demands protection money from someone we call it religion.

When the government demands taxes to pay for police services, and arrests you if you don't pay them, it's called life.

Difference being the police protect you from threats they don't deliberately create.


Thats a stretch because youre asserting the church knows its beliefs on spirituality to be false
2014-02-05 10:12:43 AM  
1 votes:

van1ty: Diogenes: When the mob demands protection money from someone we call it racketeering.

When a church demands protection money from someone we call it religion.

When the government demands taxes to pay for police services, and arrests you if you don't pay them, it's called life.


Difference being the police protect you from threats they don't deliberately create.
2014-02-05 10:05:43 AM  
1 votes:

Diogenes: When the mob demands protection money from someone we call it racketeering.

When a church demands protection money from someone we call it religion.


When the government demands taxes to pay for police services, and arrests you if you don't pay them, it's called life.
2014-02-05 09:31:18 AM  
1 votes:
Yeah good luck.
 
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