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(NCSE)   Smoked Ham; or How Bill Nye won the debate. Hint: science   (ncse.com) divider line 501
    More: Followup, smoked ham, nuclear medicines, Ken Ham, speciations, age of the universe, National Center for Science Education, fundamental science, Wheaties  
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8705 clicks; posted to Geek » on 05 Feb 2014 at 9:11 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



501 Comments   (+0 »)
   
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2014-02-05 12:40:41 PM  

Egoy3k: CJHardin: Egoy3k: CJHardin: And this is one from their side.

[wp.patheos.com.s3.amazonaws.com image 850x291]

Do they honestly believe that a 'naturalistic worldview' and 'worldly thinking' are bad things?

Being raised Southern Baptist I can tell you that they absolutely do.

Wow.  If I had kids and my less than 10 year old (going by the age I guess the cartoon is representing) had a naturalistic worldview and exhibited worldly thinking I'm be damn proud of him or her.


A naturalistic worldview and worldly thinking are a waste of time because you already have the answer, and it's Jesus Christ, our personal Lord and Savior.  The only thing that you need to think about is how we can stop this war on Christians and our Christian values.  Just look at all these gays and atheists and people dancing!!!!    Lord we call upon you in the name of your Holy Son to help us win this war on these sinners.  Praise be your name, in Jesus name we pray, Amen.

*Pass the offering plate and vote your values*

/I got better
 
2014-02-05 12:40:51 PM  

CJHardin: And this is one from their side.

[wp.patheos.com.s3.amazonaws.com image 850x291]


I did not realize tentacle porn has such a diverse audience.
 
2014-02-05 12:41:01 PM  
"Christians invented logic" is a pretty amazing howler that Nye should have called Ham out on.
 
2014-02-05 12:41:03 PM  

GameSprocket: SewerSquirrels: Perhaps I should have said, "The inspiration for religious doctrine" instead of "core of religion". The inspiration was based on evidence, but at some point it failed to be repeatable. I'm sorry to say this, but not every time you sacrifice your fatted calf are you going to have a good harvest.

Well, God isn't some machine you can put a quarter into and get a toy. Making an offering may help to secure God's favor, but it doesn't guarantee it. You need to make sure you are living according to God's law first.

In a way, this proves the existence of God. In the naturalistic mindset, if making a sacrifice meant you would have a good harvest, it would happen every time. The fact that it doesn't work every time proves that you are dealing with an intelligent force (AKA God).


Or that you can get the same results by praying to a carton of milk.
 
2014-02-05 12:41:32 PM  

BeesNuts: What if that grown ass adult demands your children be taught santa is real in science class. And then built a business around attracting people to a North Pole Museum?

Does that warrant a debate?


No.

BeesNuts: It's like none of y'all are aware that people watch these things. And that the speakers' audience isn't the other speaker.


Did you watch it?  Watch just the moderator's introduction.  Part of his introduction is that Ken Ham debated this very topic at Harvard long ago.  What happened in the debate doesn't matter, Ken Ham added that to his resumé, now he touts it.  After last night, Ken Ham will be able to say he has engaged in a second debate.

If scientists constantly debate him, he will be able to say "he travels the world debating scientists" and yet it's still in question.  That will give his followers reason enough to continue to believe him.  That will give the board of education in various states reason enough to want to teach creationism as a viable alternative.  If this guy can travel the country debating top scientists and we haven't reached consensus, then clearly this merits discussion in classrooms.

You don't get it, the audience is the general public and understanding the key arguments and major scientific findings supporting evolution requires at minimum a college biology degree.  To the audience "hey, look at the similarities in DNA sequence" has significantly less impact than "hey, look at this Piltdown Man scientists used to LIE to us."
 
2014-02-05 12:42:01 PM  
Nye really didn't handle Hamm's chronic efforts to bring up the bible.

The first time it was brought up this should have been the response:

Yes, I'm quite familiar with the Bible. It came into existence in 325 AD at the Council of Nicea. Leaders and representatives from all across the Mediterranean were brought together to unify the faith. There were all kinds of documents being used and many were in disagreement. That is where the New Testament was assembled and historical tidbits from the Hebrews were slotted into the Old Testament. Lots of stuff that was part of the evolving faith was chucked out. When the Dead Sea Scrolls were discovered the enormous breadth of early Christian writing was revealed, leaving many to question how the Bible was distilled into what we recognize it as today. A very significant event, but clearly the act of mankind and not an infallible being.
 
2014-02-05 12:42:17 PM  

GameSprocket: SewerSquirrels: Perhaps I should have said, "The inspiration for religious doctrine" instead of "core of religion". The inspiration was based on evidence, but at some point it failed to be repeatable. I'm sorry to say this, but not every time you sacrifice your fatted calf are you going to have a good harvest.

Well, God isn't some machine you can put a quarter into and get a toy. Making an offering may help to secure God's favor, but it doesn't guarantee it. You need to make sure you are living according to God's law first.

In a way, this proves the existence of God. In the naturalistic mindset, if making a sacrifice meant you would have a good harvest, it would happen every time. The fact that it doesn't work every time proves that you are dealing with an intelligent force (AKA God).


Proves?
 
2014-02-05 12:42:23 PM  

SovietCanuckistan: CJHardin: And this is one from their side.

[wp.patheos.com.s3.amazonaws.com image 850x291]

I did not realize tentacle porn has such a diverse audience.


I did.
 
2014-02-05 12:44:35 PM  
Has anyone turned up a transcript of the debate yet?

I find watching Ken Ham expensively hazardous to video displays; while still somewhat wasteful, it's less expensive to (repeatedly) print out another copy in dead-tree format after tearing yet another into confetti.
 
2014-02-05 12:44:51 PM  

Ghastly: Mikey1969: Nye prepared well. On the way to the venue, he picked up a piece of limestone from the roadside, with a fossil in it

Jesus... They were pretty easy to find at the North Rim, but even there, I had to be climbing down the face of the cliffs most of the time, I've never been able to just pull over and grab a fossil. Very cool.

Obviously God guided his hand to the fossil.


Yeah, no matter what Nye says, the Creationists are going to have a counter argument that doesn't involve science at all, or if it does, tries to rationalize by because, God. Fossils are just tricks by Satan, or things to "encourage" humans to study "God's Plan"...
 
2014-02-05 12:45:35 PM  

lennavan: You don't get it, the audience is the general public and understanding the key arguments and major scientific findings supporting evolution requires at minimum a college biology degree. To the audience "hey, look at the similarities in DNA sequence" has significantly less impact than "hey, look at this Piltdown Man scientists used to LIE to us."


yeah but if people ignore debates like this what else can /r/atheism ruffle the feathers in their fedoras over
 
2014-02-05 12:46:58 PM  

BeesNuts: What if that grown ass adult demands your children be taught santa is real in science class.  And then built a business around attracting people to a North Pole Museum?

Does that warrant a debate?


A grandstanding circle-jerk of a debate that will have no bearing on anyone's beliefs, nor on the setting of public/social/educational policy in the US?

Still no.  This did nothing to thwart the scenario you're describing.
 
2014-02-05 12:49:16 PM  

China White Tea: BeesNuts: What if that grown ass adult demands your children be taught santa is real in science class. And then built a business around attracting people to a North Pole Museum?

Does that warrant a debate?

A grandstanding circle-jerk of a debate that will have no bearing on anyone's beliefs, nor on the setting of public/social/educational policy in the US?


If anything, it actually gave more credibility to the Creationists.  We went from "Creationism isn't worth debating because of X, Y and Z" to "Creationism is worth debating."
 
2014-02-05 12:56:36 PM  

MayoSlather: Nye didn't attack the Bible enough. Ham's whole argument centered around every last word being true. All Nye had to do was point out that Christians don't even buy into all the evil shiat in there, and if they didn't believe any part wasn't true then why should they buy into every word of genesis.

Plus he never hit on the idea that by Ham merely pointing out any mystery in science, it doesn't automatically lead to the conclusion that christianity is automatically correct, which Ham did over and over.


This doesn't surprise me. A big failing for people like Nye is that they don't take into account the foundations of the other side's beliefs. Nye argued from a position of science, when he should have poked holes in the idea that the Bible is 100% literal. By failing to attack the foundations of the other position, he only allowed the other side to keep making the claim of: "Science says the Bible is wrong. Therefore science is wrong."

What he really needed for the debate prep was a Christian who isn't a YEC, but rather one who accepts science and believes Genesis is more of a metaphor than a literal history. He needed a Christian who understands the other side and who understands how to attack YEC without attacking the Christian faith. I am one ofthose Christians, and there are many others like me out there. And I am sick of people like Ham who are doing a lot of harm to not only the faith but also the nation and world with this nonsense.

Nothing Ham said is new. Anyone who follows people like him knows exactly where he's going to go with his "theories." Know your opponant and attack his strengths.
 
2014-02-05 12:59:45 PM  
After reviewing the Twitter and Facebook posts afterward, the sciencey people were unhappy that Nye wasn't tough enough and did not "win" by proclaiming Creationism bs. The religiony people were unhappy that there was not enough time in the debate to go over all the arguments to prove that scientists weren't there to know what happened. So, imo, completely useless for both sides because neither were convinced, even a little bit, that they may not know what they are talking about.
 
2014-02-05 01:01:18 PM  

pkellmey: After reviewing the Twitter and Facebook posts afterward, the sciencey people were unhappy that Nye wasn't tough enough and did not "win" by proclaiming Creationism bs. The religiony people were unhappy that there was not enough time in the debate to go over all the arguments to prove that scientists weren't there to know what happened. So, imo, completely useless for both sides because neither were convinced, even a little bit, that they may not know what they are talking about.


Same is true of most debates.
 
2014-02-05 01:01:37 PM  

sprawl15: /r/atheism


Now all atheists have to answer for reddit?  My god, that's like pretending all Christians participated in the holocaust.
 
2014-02-05 01:02:26 PM  

pkellmey: After reviewing the Twitter and Facebook posts afterward, the sciencey people were unhappy that Nye wasn't tough enough and did not "win" by proclaiming Creationism bs. The religiony people were unhappy that there was not enough time in the debate to go over all the arguments to prove that scientists weren't there to know what happened. So, imo, completely useless for both sides because neither were convinced, even a little bit, that they may not know what they are talking about.


How could either side be convinced?  One side is firmly entrenched in dogma, they aren't going to change their minds.  The other side is more than willing to be proven wrong, but of course there is no real evidence against evolution.  How could it have gone any "better"?  The whole thing was nothing more than an exercise in futility.
 
2014-02-05 01:03:13 PM  

ikanreed: sprawl15: /r/atheism

Now all atheists have to answer for reddit?  My god, that's like pretending all Christians participated in the holocaust.


Or all Canadians are responsible for Justin Bieber.
 
2014-02-05 01:04:40 PM  

RedPhoenix122: Or all Canadians are responsible for Justin Bieber.


Aren't they?  Aren't they?
 
2014-02-05 01:05:11 PM  

I drunk what: can any butt hurt anti-theist evolutionists admit they can recognize the difference between observational science and historical science yet?


 It's a cute little philosophical thought, but ultimately a self defeating distinction.  From what I've observed people will intuitively reject it, for obvious reasons.  What is "historic", ten minutes ago? The time it takes for light to reach us from the sun?  Should crime scene investigators simply throw their hands?  "Well, we weren't here! No use in using a 'less powerful' scientific 'method' to determine what happened.  We'll never be able to discount magic being the culprit!"

It's the kind of argument children make.
 
2014-02-05 01:05:30 PM  
soporific: ...Nye argued from a position of science, when he should have poked holes in the idea that the Bible is 100% literal. By failing to attack the foundations of the other position, he only allowed the other side to keep making the claim of: "Science says the Bible is wrong. Therefore science is wrong."

What he really needed for the debate prep was a Christian who isn't a YEC, but rather one who accepts science and believes Genesis is more of a metaphor than a literal history. He needed a Christian who understands the other side and who understands how to attack YEC without attacking the Christian faith. I am one ofthose Christians, and there are many others like me out there. And I am sick of people like Ham who are doing a lot of harm to not only the faith but also the nation and world with this nonsense...


I grew up around fundies and evangelicals, and still live around them, and this is  exactly what you don't do, because then they just play the "you lack the faith and revelation to understand the  Bible as inerrant and literal" card. Christian scientists they just argue are "corrupted" by Satan (evolutionists), have lost the faith, and should be categorically rejected (even over atheists and agnostics, who know not what they do) at all costs lest they corrupt the audience as well.

I've said it before, and I've said it again. There is  no way to win against these people, and the very act of trying is a net victory for them. The only winning move is truly not to play. Like I said in my previous post, this "debate" will just result in stemming AiG's ongoing funding hemorrhage which will empower them to continue their activities. One of which is  writing and printing creationist textbooks.
 
2014-02-05 01:06:32 PM  

Epicedion: Aren't they?  Aren't they?


No, I blame the U.S. and U.K. as well.
 
2014-02-05 01:06:34 PM  

ikanreed: sprawl15: /r/atheism

Now all atheists have to answer for reddit?  My god, that's like pretending all Christians participated in the holocaust.


no just the ones who thought circlejerk xlvii: the debationing would be worth spending a single brain cell watching
 
2014-02-05 01:07:58 PM  

vactech: I drunk what: can any butt hurt anti-theist evolutionists admit they can recognize the difference between observational science and historical science yet?

 It's a cute little philosophical thought, but ultimately a self defeating distinction.  From what I've observed people will intuitively reject it, for obvious reasons.  What is "historic", ten minutes ago? The time it takes for light to reach us from the sun?  Should crime scene investigators simply throw their hands?  "Well, we weren't here! No use in using a 'less powerful' scientific 'method' to determine what happened.  We'll never be able to discount magic being the culprit!"

It's the kind of argument children make.


Especially since you can claim that the book was written by men and there's no way to prove if the authors are who they claim.

The "Were you there?" argument doesn't look as good from the other side.
 
2014-02-05 01:08:11 PM  

RedPhoenix122: Epicedion: Aren't they?  Aren't they?

No, I blame the U.S. and U.K. as well.


I blame Obama.
 
2014-02-05 01:09:37 PM  

Fano: fat boy: The real question is, did Bevets evolve into a rational person?

Into technobevets, who was subsequently banned. He is on an AMAZO like journey of self reflection through the universe right now.


So he's like Raul Julia in Overdrawn At The Memory Bank?
 
2014-02-05 01:10:18 PM  

Mikey1969: Jesus... They were pretty easy to find at the North Rim, but even there, I had to be climbing down the face of the cliffs most of the time, I've never been able to just pull over and grab a fossil. Very cool.


I spent hours looking at limestone along roadsides north of San Antonio.  Net result:  Sunburn and a corner of a leaf imprint.  Yay.
 
2014-02-05 01:11:45 PM  

sprawl15: no just the ones who thought circlejerk xlvii: the debationing would be worth spending a single brain cell watching


Right, like we all appreciate the time we spend on your opinions?
 
2014-02-05 01:12:51 PM  

vactech: It's the kind of argument children make.


so then you've come to the right place...?

:D

have fun lad, no1curr.gif
 
2014-02-05 01:13:04 PM  
I had 14 years of Lutheran prep school.
I remember as a young kid being told about the dinosaurs being fake or a trick and took that as face value (even though I love dinosaurs).
Then as an 8th grader I went to the National Museum of Natural History and realized that "religion" as whole was a trap for the weak minded.

So bravo Bill Nye
 
2014-02-05 01:13:19 PM  
How can you win against someone who is playing the argumentative equivalent of Calvinball?
 
2014-02-05 01:13:50 PM  
No one who's a true believer is going to ever be persuaded that creationism is bogus, but that's not the point. If we can highlight to a casual audience how farking absurd the creationists are, it makes it much easier for polite society to vote against allowing them equal time in schools.
 
2014-02-05 01:14:02 PM  

TheBlackrose: How can you win against someone who is playing the argumentative equivalent of Calvinball?


4closurefraud.org
 
2014-02-05 01:14:11 PM  

CJHardin: RedPhoenix122: Epicedion: Aren't they?  Aren't they?

No, I blame the U.S. and U.K. as well.

I blame Obama.


You guys don't realize it.  Gordon Lightfoot and Celine Dion were TEST BALLOONS!

Canada is coming for your babies, America!
 
2014-02-05 01:14:25 PM  

meat0918: I said this yesterday

There was no debate.

It was a farce, a dog and pony show so that Ken Ham, creationist asshole numero uno, could point to this and say "See, I'm a real scientist, I got to sit down at the grown up table."


Indeed. Such people should be dealt with the same way Farktrolls should be: ignored outright. Debating them only risks legitimizing their hypocrisy and cognitive dissonance, which can then be exploited as "proof" when those idiots appeal to the well-meaning but ill-informed.

(Unless you have that rare gift to provoke one into a very public, vitriolic meltdown... those are so wonderful to see...)
 
2014-02-05 01:15:17 PM  

ikanreed: sprawl15: no just the ones who thought circlejerk xlvii: the debationing would be worth spending a single brain cell watching

Right, like we all appreciate the time we spend on your opinions?


i have been keeping my posts short so as to not overstimulate you

hth
 
2014-02-05 01:16:54 PM  

TheBlackrose: How can you win against someone who is playing the argumentative equivalent of Calvinball?


That's actually a really good analogy.
 
2014-02-05 01:16:58 PM  
Ken Ham:  the answer is in the bible... and the bible is the word of god.
Bill Nye:  who wrote the bible?
Ken Ham: god.
Bill Nye: you weren't there.  You didn't see it.   checkmate.
 
2014-02-05 01:17:42 PM  

sprawl15: i have been keeping my posts short so as to not overstimulate you

hth


I just was pointing how dumb a perspective it is to say "how terrible people waste time listening to other people talk about things" as if there weren't a shiat-ton of worse ways to spend your time.
 
2014-02-05 01:19:28 PM  

ikanreed: sprawl15: i have been keeping my posts short so as to not overstimulate you

hth

I just was pointing how dumb a perspective it is to say "how terrible people waste time listening to other people talk about things" as if there weren't a shiat-ton of worse ways to spend your time.


Well, it does keep a potential child molester off the street.
 
2014-02-05 01:19:33 PM  

Mad Tea Party: No one who's a true believer is going to ever be persuaded that creationism is bogus, but that's not the point. If we can highlight to a casual audience how farking absurd the creationists are, it makes it much easier for polite society to vote against allowing them equal time in schools.


Conversely, if creationists can highlight to a casual audience whose science education in school has suffered perennially the inherent flaws and drawbacks of the scientific method without context, as well as cherry pick instances where scientists have been incorrect or unethical, people will begin to believe there is a controversy and begin to reject science -- or begin considering pseudoscience as equally valid.

See, climate change.
 
2014-02-05 01:19:52 PM  

ko_kyi: Mikey1969: Jesus... They were pretty easy to find at the North Rim, but even there, I had to be climbing down the face of the cliffs most of the time, I've never been able to just pull over and grab a fossil. Very cool.

I spent hours looking at limestone along roadsides north of San Antonio.  Net result:  Sunburn and a corner of a leaf imprint.  Yay.


which is just further proof that nothing worthwhile ever has or ever will live in that part of the country.
 
2014-02-05 01:20:22 PM  

that bosnian sniper: soporific: ...Nye argued from a position of science, when he should have poked holes in the idea that the Bible is 100% literal. By failing to attack the foundations of the other position, he only allowed the other side to keep making the claim of: "Science says the Bible is wrong. Therefore science is wrong."

What he really needed for the debate prep was a Christian who isn't a YEC, but rather one who accepts science and believes Genesis is more of a metaphor than a literal history. He needed a Christian who understands the other side and who understands how to attack YEC without attacking the Christian faith. I am one ofthose Christians, and there are many others like me out there. And I am sick of people like Ham who are doing a lot of harm to not only the faith but also the nation and world with this nonsense...

I grew up around fundies and evangelicals, and still live around them, and this is  exactly what you don't do, because then they just play the "you lack the faith and revelation to understand the  Bible as inerrant and literal" card. Christian scientists they just argue are "corrupted" by Satan (evolutionists), have lost the faith, and should be categorically rejected (even over atheists and agnostics, who know not what they do) at all costs lest they corrupt the audience as well.

I've said it before, and I've said it again. There is  no way to win against these people, and the very act of trying is a net victory for them. The only winning move is truly not to play. Like I said in my previous post, this "debate" will just result in stemming AiG's ongoing funding hemorrhage which will empower them to continue their activities. One of which is  writing and printing creationist textbooks.


Exactly why you do my approach of arguing from THEIR position and make them have to argue against the bible. It's not one they like at all. And yes, they'll attempt the "begone satan!" trick to which you pull out multiple Paul verses. Force them into a corner and remind them about false prophets and hypocrisy.
 
2014-02-05 01:21:17 PM  
Sofa King Smart:
Bill Nye:  who wrote the bible?
Ken Ham: god.


Are there any Christians that believe God wrote the Bible?  I mean, the book of Matthew was written by... Matthew.  That's why it's referred to as "The Gospel According to Matthew."
 
2014-02-05 01:21:35 PM  
abb3w (lost cause): Has anyone turned up a transcript of the debate yet?

I find watching Ken Ham expensively hazardous to video displays; while still somewhat wasteful, it's less expensive to (repeatedly) print out another copy in dead-tree format after tearing yet another into confetti.


yep got it right here for ya;


Ham:  G'Day blokes, I like teh bybull

Nye:  I like Science!!

Ham:  I liek teh bybull

Nye:  I like, she blinded me with ... SCIENCE!!!1!

Ham:  I like teg bybull, teh power of Jebus compels YOU!!1!

Nye:  FOR SCIENCE!!!1!!111

Ham: bybull

Nye: SCIENCE!!!

Le Fin
 
2014-02-05 01:22:19 PM  

lennavan: Sofa King Smart:
Bill Nye:  who wrote the bible?
Ken Ham: god.

Are there any Christians that believe God wrote the Bible?  I mean, the book of Matthew was written by... Matthew.  That's why it's referred to as "The Gospel According to Matthew."


He was only transcribing what God told him to.

/according to them.
 
2014-02-05 01:22:28 PM  

Princess Ryans Knickers: Exactly why you do my approach of arguing from THEIR position and make them have to argue against the bible


So you agree the Bible is true then?  Great.

Princess Ryans Knickers: It's not one they like at all.


Yes it is, you just admitted the Bible is a reliable source worth using in arguments.  They won more ground than they initially even imagined.
 
2014-02-05 01:23:31 PM  

ikanreed: I just was pointing how dumb a perspective it is to say "how terrible people waste time listening to other people talk about things" as if there weren't a shiat-ton of worse ways to spend your time.


there really arent that many worse ways to spend your time than watching someone debate a young earth creationist slash attention whore except maybe crowing about how his arguments are not logically sound

but in the interest of fairness i will try to list some worse ways to spend your time:
peeing in one's own cheerios
slamming one's own dick in a car door
posting on tfd
getting a tattoo of jean claude van damme's face over your own face
planning a food truck / anal bleaching helicopter concept pitch
looking up guy fieri's banging fashion sizzle tips
reading terry goodkind
 
2014-02-05 01:23:53 PM  

lennavan: Are there any Christians that believe God wrote the Bible?


I thought Bart Ehrman wrote the Bible?!?  i'm so confused

lelz
 
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