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(Slate)   By forcing "busing" of blacks and whites, Liberals failed race and hurt the concept of integration. Yes, this columnist actually believes that   (slate.com) divider line 96
    More: Fail, systems integration, white people, liberals  
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912 clicks; posted to Politics » on 04 Feb 2014 at 9:18 AM (32 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-02-04 10:34:45 AM

the_vegetarian_cannibal: Biff_Steel: This Tanner dude sure has a fixation on black folks:

http://www.slate.com/authors.tanner_colby.html


The Gentleman Caller: By Tanner Colby

By Tanner Colby

By Tanner Colby

By TANNER EFFING COLBY

Oh Tanner Colby! I definitely trust a Hall of Fame White Name like that! Educate me on 1960s Race Relations, Tanner Colby!

After look him up, apparently he wrote this book.

From a glance, it looks to be a critique of white liberals' awkward relationship with actual racial minorities, albeit from a tongue-in-cheek viewpoint.

So it sounds like he is a smarmy, privileged, holier-than-thou, liberal-elitist white guy. But at least he's a self-aware smarmy, privileged, holier-than-thou, liberal-elitist white guy


He doesn't sound all that liberal to me, what with his use of liberal as a thinly veiled pejorative through most of the piece.
 
2014-02-04 10:35:28 AM

Slaves2Darkness: God's Hubris

I was told you no longer exist because SCIENCE!



Actually, as a paradox I do exist because Schroedinger's Cat.
 
2014-02-04 10:37:15 AM
If Busing was such a failure, we should have tried boating them back to africa
 
2014-02-04 10:37:38 AM

Wendy's Chili: Five years ago, while fervently supporting the candidacy of the man who would become America's first black president, I came to the realization that I didn't actually know any black people. Most of the people I did know (i.e., other white people) didn't know many black people either. One, maybe two, was the norm. I asked one white guy I knew if he had any black friends, and he replied, "You mean ones that aren't on television?"

I wanted to know why integration-actual, genuine integration-had failed so spectacularly.


Well, Tanner, it's either because liberals are stupid and bad and we shouldn't listen to them, or because your racist parents raised you as far away from black people as possible.


Or it could be a grand plan designed by central planners who had no concept of problem, were not part of the communities it would affect, and did not understand the new problems it would create failed. The reason people distrust the Federal government is because most solutions the Federal government try and provide do not fit local conditions.
 
2014-02-04 10:37:59 AM
I've heard it said, that 'we need to have a conversation on race relations' in one way or another for some time now. And while this sounds good, it can never work and for one very obvious reason: white people have absolutely no incentive to participate in any such dialogue.

It is a no win situation.  A white person has absolutely nothing to gain in any such discussion.  Anything they can possibly say can only be turned to lable them a racist dirt bag. The only winning move is not to participate. For instance, just disagreeing with the president on any given issue is now argued by some as racist.

So, there can be no 'dialogue'. There will only be an airing of grievences and a condescending nodding of the head with a furrowed brow.
 
2014-02-04 10:40:06 AM

SphericalTime: the_vegetarian_cannibal: Biff_Steel: This Tanner dude sure has a fixation on black folks:

http://www.slate.com/authors.tanner_colby.html


The Gentleman Caller: By Tanner Colby

By Tanner Colby

By Tanner Colby

By TANNER EFFING COLBY

Oh Tanner Colby! I definitely trust a Hall of Fame White Name like that! Educate me on 1960s Race Relations, Tanner Colby!

After look him up, apparently he wrote this book.

From a glance, it looks to be a critique of white liberals' awkward relationship with actual racial minorities, albeit from a tongue-in-cheek viewpoint.

So it sounds like he is a smarmy, privileged, holier-than-thou, liberal-elitist white guy. But at least he's a self-aware smarmy, privileged, holier-than-thou, liberal-elitist white guy

He doesn't sound all that liberal to me, what with his use of liberal as a thinly veiled pejorative through most of the piece.


Yeah, he's laying it on a little too thick to be a run-of-the-mill Slate contrarian. This is the opening act of a future FOX News contributer.
 
2014-02-04 10:42:34 AM

Bloody William: Danger Mouse: I'm not for for segregation, but forced bussing doesn't seem like the best answer to me.

What was a better answer? I'll repeat myself.

When a problem is so thoroughly ingrained and completely farked, there is no "good" answer, only an answer that inches us in the right direction so the good one eventually becomes feasible.

Things were farked. They're still not great, but they're less farked. The process of un-farking the situation was not perfect, but it was the least damaging or non-functional way available to un-fark things. Offer a better alternative you would have gone with if you have one, otherwise I'm standing by my point.


Actually, at least for education, things are worse. Our schools are more segregated today than they were in the 70s.

The real argument to make in favor of desegregation is that it benefits all of the students. The lower performing (poor) students get better academically and the higher performing (not poor) students get better socially. North Carolina had a very successful response with its Economic Diversity program in Wake County but it has faced many challenges from the GOP lovelies. And the best thing about their program is that it's based on income not race so it addresses the real problems impacting performance. Race is in some sense secondary to household income in that a black student whose parents live in a wealthy suburb will probably do quite well and a white student whose family lives below poverty probably won't.

I grew up in the Boston area (Cambridge) during busing and I can say that I thought the way Cambridge handled it (a lottery system so that all kids were going to schools all over the city) was a really good response. It wasn't race-based so it was harder to attack, and the students were exposed to a lot more culturally. We only had one high school by the time I got to it, so that was an easy integration. A lot of white parents either moved or sent their kids to parochial schools in the early days but that pattern didn't really play out like it did in Boston. I have life-long friends that I never would have even met if I hadn't gone to CRLS. (I attended a Friends school for grammar school.) It was an absolutely wonderful experience.
 
2014-02-04 10:45:39 AM

andrewagill: So this is a piece on busing integration.

I think there's a law or something that says that someone needs to post this picture in the thread:

[4.bp.blogspot.com image 500x400]


You know, I wonder if the jackhole with the flag was ever identified.  Is he still alive now?  Has he had any change of thoughts/attitude since then?
 
2014-02-04 10:49:17 AM

ginandbacon: Actually, at least for education, things are worse. Our schools are more segregated today than they were in the 70s.


Your article doesn't say that busing causes more segregation. In fact, it doesn't mention busing at all.
 
2014-02-04 10:50:03 AM

Satanic_Hamster: andrewagill: So this is a piece on busing integration.

I think there's a law or something that says that someone needs to post this picture in the thread:

[4.bp.blogspot.com image 500x400]

You know, I wonder if the jackhole with the flag was ever identified.  Is he still alive now?  Has he had any change of thoughts/attitude since then?


Joseph Rakes?  I tried to find out where he is now, but all I can find is information on Stephen Rakes, who was involved with Whitey Bulger and is now dead (Stephen is dead, that is.  I don't know about Joseph).
 
2014-02-04 10:55:06 AM

Saiga410: nmrsnr: The last point is the most confusing one, since he admits that black schools were unquestionably worse than white schools, but railed against BOTH shutting down black schools to send the kids to white schools, AND forcing kids from white schools to attend black schools.

Take race out of it.

So you are saying that you are going to take my kid and bus him across town so he can go to a poor performing school because......  NO he is going to stay in the good school.

So you are saying you want to implode the poor performing schools and try to average out the performance across the boards.... but my school is the better performing ones, so you are trying to drop the performance of my school?  No, increase the performance of the lower ones, dont drop mine.



...but don't do it by increasing funding to those schools, or by sending any of the good teachers to those schools.

This is the real problem, and race is only ostensibly the issue. The real problem is that the well-to-do all cluster in the same district for "the best school," hoover up all the resources and leave everyone else farked.

Yes, it typically breaks black/white, but it's much more about rich/poor... especially these days. As someone who went to the poor schools in my city, (which were predominantly black) I can tell you without a doubt, they didn't their kids going to school with me either, and they certainly didn't want any of the resources going to me or the other kids in my school.

In fact, my city school system is up to new hijinks to cluster all the poor kids into one or two schools and to drive down the performance of the number 2 high school (currently a top-performing school in the state) so that the "rich school" is the only good school in the city... but I'm sure it has nothing to do with driving up property values in that area even more.
 
2014-02-04 10:56:43 AM
er, "they [rich folks ]didn't want their kids going to school with me either"
 
2014-02-04 11:02:23 AM

vpb: That's my takeaway from most of the people I know who hated school bussing.


They started bussing in my city again.
In the old system, you had a choice of several schools near your home that the kids would have bus service to.  You could still choose to enroll them in any school in the county, so long you could get them there.

Now, the school board chooses for you, and busses the kids 20 miles away.  With stops and traffic, the bus route takes an hour to get to school, and an hour home.  For no reason other than they want more black kids in some schools and more white kids in other schools, on opposite ends of the county.
 
2014-02-04 11:03:42 AM

Lost Thought 00: ginandbacon: Actually, at least for education, things are worse. Our schools are more segregated today than they were in the 70s.

Your article doesn't say that busing causes more segregation. In fact, it doesn't mention busing at all.


Neither do I. I was responding to BW assertion that things have gotten better. That's untrue for a majority of minority students and untrue for almost all poor minority students. If you read the rest of my comment, I gave two examples of how communities have successfully addressed inequality without resorting to race-based busing programs. I don't know that I have looked at enough recent data from the neighborhoods that had busing to form an intelligent opinion on the subject. It would take a lot of time sifting through education journals and census data and I don't have that right now. 

I just think we have strong evidence that there are ways of addressing a situation that not only hasn't improved but has actually gotten worse.

(And I should disclose that I have mentored students in completely segregated schools. Both privately and on site. It's quite shocking for someone who grew up in a very diverse city to experience that even as a visitor to that environment--and I don't just mean in the schools themselves but the neighborhoods as well. It is heartbreaking and extremely depressing. It's what got me researching the impact of diversity in education.)
 
2014-02-04 11:07:02 AM
Bloody William: ...When a problem is so thoroughly ingrained and completely farked, there is no "good" answer, only an answer that inches us in the right direction so the good one eventually becomes feasible.

I think that's rather the point. The country inched forward and  stopped, to the detriment of anyone but middle/upper class kids who, by dint of socioeconomic class and location, had proper access to schooling from the onset.
 
2014-02-04 11:12:04 AM
How about we just fund all schools equally nationwide?  Everybody pays taxes, just pool the money and each school gets the same amount per student.

Wait, that wouldn't work. Then the teachers would fight for jobs in some up-scale areas and the more blighted areas would only be left with sub-standard teachers.

Is there a way to get all the schools to provide the same opportunity that people won't complain about?
 
2014-02-04 11:16:07 AM

technicolor-misfit: ...but don't do it by increasing funding to those schools, or by sending any of the good teachers to those schools.

This is the real problem, and race is only ostensibly the issue. The real problem is that the well-to-do all cluster in the same district for "the best school," hoover up all the resources and leave everyone else farked.

Yes, it typically breaks black/white, but it's much more about rich/poor...


Ding ding, we have a winner.  Students may have been forced to integrate, but  school funding never did save an ineffective token effort.
 
2014-02-04 11:19:49 AM

Tricky Chicken: How about we just fund all schools equally nationwide?  Everybody pays taxes, just pool the money and each school gets the same amount per student.

Wait, that wouldn't work. Then the teachers would fight for jobs in some up-scale areas and the more blighted areas would only be left with sub-standard teachers.

Is there a way to get all the schools to provide the same opportunity that people won't complain about?


We could just build a single massive school somewhere in the middle of nowhere, where all children are forcibly housed with no contact to the outside world until graduation, and those who never graduate never leave
 
2014-02-04 11:26:07 AM

Lost Thought 00: Tricky Chicken: How about we just fund all schools equally nationwide?  Everybody pays taxes, just pool the money and each school gets the same amount per student.

Wait, that wouldn't work. Then the teachers would fight for jobs in some up-scale areas and the more blighted areas would only be left with sub-standard teachers.

Is there a way to get all the schools to provide the same opportunity that people won't complain about?

We could just build a single massive school somewhere in the middle of nowhere, where all children are forcibly housed with no contact to the outside world until graduation, and those who never graduate never leave


A mandatory boarding school system? the idea does have some merits. But could we get it to fly? My initial reaction is that I don't want to send my son away, because I actually like the little guy.  But maybe over time, people could adjust to the idea.
 
2014-02-04 11:46:00 AM

Tricky Chicken: Lost Thought 00: Tricky Chicken: How about we just fund all schools equally nationwide?  Everybody pays taxes, just pool the money and each school gets the same amount per student.

Wait, that wouldn't work. Then the teachers would fight for jobs in some up-scale areas and the more blighted areas would only be left with sub-standard teachers.

Is there a way to get all the schools to provide the same opportunity that people won't complain about?

We could just build a single massive school somewhere in the middle of nowhere, where all children are forcibly housed with no contact to the outside world until graduation, and those who never graduate never leave

A mandatory boarding school system? the idea does have some merits. But could we get it to fly? My initial reaction is that I don't want to send my son away, because I actually like the little guy.  But maybe over time, people could adjust to the idea.


I'm envisioning a federal web site that people coould go to and shop for thier education, complare prices and get quotes.
 
2014-02-04 11:50:17 AM

Danger Mouse: Tricky Chicken: Lost Thought 00: Tricky Chicken: How about we just fund all schools equally nationwide?  Everybody pays taxes, just pool the money and each school gets the same amount per student.

Wait, that wouldn't work. Then the teachers would fight for jobs in some up-scale areas and the more blighted areas would only be left with sub-standard teachers.

Is there a way to get all the schools to provide the same opportunity that people won't complain about?

We could just build a single massive school somewhere in the middle of nowhere, where all children are forcibly housed with no contact to the outside world until graduation, and those who never graduate never leave

A mandatory boarding school system? the idea does have some merits. But could we get it to fly? My initial reaction is that I don't want to send my son away, because I actually like the little guy.  But maybe over time, people could adjust to the idea.

I'm envisioning a federal web site that people coould go to and shop for thier education, complare prices and get quotes.


Can I get a gold, silver, or plastic designation to the quality of the schools?
 
2014-02-04 11:51:25 AM

Danger Mouse: Tricky Chicken: Lost Thought 00: Tricky Chicken: How about we just fund all schools equally nationwide?  Everybody pays taxes, just pool the money and each school gets the same amount per student.

Wait, that wouldn't work. Then the teachers would fight for jobs in some up-scale areas and the more blighted areas would only be left with sub-standard teachers.

Is there a way to get all the schools to provide the same opportunity that people won't complain about?

We could just build a single massive school somewhere in the middle of nowhere, where all children are forcibly housed with no contact to the outside world until graduation, and those who never graduate never leave

A mandatory boarding school system? the idea does have some merits. But could we get it to fly? My initial reaction is that I don't want to send my son away, because I actually like the little guy.  But maybe over time, people could adjust to the idea.

I'm envisioning a federal web site that people coould go to and shop for thier education, complare prices and get quotes.


It would need an all-encompasing name.  like 'education.org' or something like that.
 
2014-02-04 12:28:56 PM

Tricky Chicken: Danger Mouse: Tricky Chicken: Lost Thought 00: Tricky Chicken: How about we just fund all schools equally nationwide?  Everybody pays taxes, just pool the money and each school gets the same amount per student.

Wait, that wouldn't work. Then the teachers would fight for jobs in some up-scale areas and the more blighted areas would only be left with sub-standard teachers.

Is there a way to get all the schools to provide the same opportunity that people won't complain about?

We could just build a single massive school somewhere in the middle of nowhere, where all children are forcibly housed with no contact to the outside world until graduation, and those who never graduate never leave

A mandatory boarding school system? the idea does have some merits. But could we get it to fly? My initial reaction is that I don't want to send my son away, because I actually like the little guy.  But maybe over time, people could adjust to the idea.

I'm envisioning a federal web site that people coould go to and shop for thier education, complare prices and get quotes.

It would need an all-encompasing name.  like 'education.org' or something like that.


I'm thinking we should call it Obamasmartz.,org The logo can be a scarecrow.
 
2014-02-04 12:44:33 PM

Pocket Ninja: I think it's less "this columnist actually believes that" and more "this columnist had a multi-part feature to write and understands that taking a slightly unorthodox view that's not utterly indefensible will get him more attention."


I see you're familiar with Slate.
 
2014-02-04 12:48:57 PM

the_vegetarian_cannibal: Lost Thought 00: When people argue this, without a realistic alternative, all I hear is people longing for the days before Brown

This. I'm a liberal but I can definitely see why busing, while well-intentioned, was a very badly executed concept and am not surprised by the negative reception that it had from most groups.

That being said, it is funny that the most vocal critics of busing never ever offer an alternative solution to the issue and their only position was just to let the status quo stand. Kind of the 1970s version of "FIX OLD, NO NEW!"


The original, anti-integration idea was, "They're forcing us to desegregate, while working on our own timeline would be much better.  We know our own people."  Of course, their timeline was the same as 'never'.

The writer of TFA and others like him are making the same statement, "They forced them to desegregate, while working on their own timeline would have been much better.  They kenw their own people."

It's amazing how with time and success, people start doubling back and trying to undermine the very things that got them where they are.  I'm reminded of anti-vaxxers, too.
 
2014-02-04 01:24:16 PM

Bloody William: Danger Mouse: I'm not for for segregation, but forced bussing doesn't seem like the best answer to me.

What was a better answer? I'll repeat myself.

When a problem is so thoroughly ingrained and completely farked, there is no "good" answer, only an answer that inches us in the right direction so the good one eventually becomes feasible.

Things were farked. They're still not great, but they're less farked. The process of un-farking the situation was not perfect, but it was the least damaging or non-functional way available to un-fark things. Offer a better alternative you would have gone with if you have one, otherwise I'm standing by my point.


Things are not "less farked" in places like Detroit, which was kinda the point of TFA. The process of un-farking resulted in white flight, from which Detroit has never recovered. Things are objectively worse in Detroit than 60 years ago.

So, to answer your question, doing nothing might've been better than forced integration. Keeping a viable tax base would've helped tremendously.
 
2014-02-04 01:26:08 PM

stewbert: Bloody William: Danger Mouse: I'm not for for segregation, but forced bussing doesn't seem like the best answer to me.

What was a better answer? I'll repeat myself.

When a problem is so thoroughly ingrained and completely farked, there is no "good" answer, only an answer that inches us in the right direction so the good one eventually becomes feasible.

Things were farked. They're still not great, but they're less farked. The process of un-farking the situation was not perfect, but it was the least damaging or non-functional way available to un-fark things. Offer a better alternative you would have gone with if you have one, otherwise I'm standing by my point.

Things are not "less farked" in places like Detroit, which was kinda the point of TFA. The process of un-farking resulted in white flight, from which Detroit has never recovered. Things are objectively worse in Detroit than 60 years ago.

So, to answer your question, doing nothing might've been better than forced integration. Keeping a viable tax base would've helped tremendously.


Gary, IN is doing just fine...
 
2014-02-04 01:28:13 PM
 
2014-02-04 01:32:49 PM

nmrsnr: Saiga410: Take race out of it.

No.

Saiga410: So you are saying that you are going to take my kid and bus him across town so he can go to a poor performing school because...... NO he is going to stay in the good school.

Because the other school is poor performing because this country screwed them over left, right, and center for about a century, and we have to start fixing it.

Saiga410: So you are saying you want to implode the poor performing schools and try to average out the performance across the boards.... but my school is the better performing ones, so you are trying to drop the performance of my school? No, increase the performance of the lower ones, dont drop mine.

Your school is only better because we've been treating your kids liked pampered angels while treating their kids like crap. That's not fair at all, we're just trying to level the playing field. Don't like it? Tough. Your kid is getting the same education he was before, don't worry about how the other kids are doing.


I understand your comment, but this is kind of where it went of the rails in reality. People were not willing to have their own kids sent to worse schools. I'm a parent and I wouldn't support bussing my kid a long distance to a worse school, or even an equal one.
 
2014-02-04 01:44:42 PM

stewbert: I understand your comment, but this is kind of where it went of the rails in reality. People were not willing to have their own kids sent to worse schools. I'm a parent and I wouldn't support bussing my kid a long distance to a worse school, or even an equal one.


That part of my comment was only in response to allowing other kids to get bussed into your school, which doesn't directly inconvenience you or your child. For making your kid get on a bus to a worse school yeah, that sucks, but might be worth the sacrifice. Whining that "those kids" can now get to your sheltered school? Tough.
 
2014-02-04 01:51:08 PM

nmrsnr: stewbert: I understand your comment, but this is kind of where it went of the rails in reality. People were not willing to have their own kids sent to worse schools. I'm a parent and I wouldn't support bussing my kid a long distance to a worse school, or even an equal one.

That part of my comment was only in response to allowing other kids to get bussed into your school, which doesn't directly inconvenience you or your child. For making your kid get on a bus to a worse school yeah, that sucks, but might be worth the sacrifice. Whining that "those kids" can now get to your sheltered school? Tough.


That I can agree with. I would support other kids bussing in to my schools.
 
2014-02-04 01:51:36 PM

nmrsnr: stewbert: I understand your comment, but this is kind of where it went of the rails in reality. People were not willing to have their own kids sent to worse schools. I'm a parent and I wouldn't support bussing my kid a long distance to a worse school, or even an equal one.

That part of my comment was only in response to allowing other kids to get bussed into your school, which doesn't directly inconvenience you or your child. For making your kid get on a bus to a worse school yeah, that sucks, but might be worth the sacrifice. Whining that "those kids" can now get to your sheltered school? Tough.


You want to explain how making your kids have a less certain future or be in physical danger would be "worth the sacrifice"?
 
2014-02-04 01:55:33 PM

nmrsnr: stewbert: I understand your comment, but this is kind of where it went of the rails in reality. People were not willing to have their own kids sent to worse schools. I'm a parent and I wouldn't support bussing my kid a long distance to a worse school, or even an equal one.

That part of my comment was only in response to allowing other kids to get bussed into your school, which doesn't directly inconvenience you or your child. For making your kid get on a bus to a worse school yeah, that sucks, but might be worth the sacrifice. Whining that "those kids" can now get to your sheltered school? Tough.


What is the % of population influx?  If the increase of students that need to be brought up to speed removes the ability of the instructor to sufficiently advance the currently up to spped students then we may have a problem here.
 
2014-02-04 02:09:30 PM

nmrsnr: For making your kid get on a bus to a worse school yeah, that sucks, but might be worth the sacrifice. Whining that "those kids" can now get to your sheltered school?


I don't give two shiats if they feel the need to bus over "those kids" to our school.  Good for them.
What is bullshiat is busing my kid an hour away to the farking ghetto school.  Especially if you specifically chose where you live based on the local school, are in walking distance, and aren't allowed to go there anymore.  No, it's not worth the sacrifice to the kid.  They're not Spock, they didn't choose to sacrifice their education for the betterment of the many.

This is how you make people leave your school district.
 
2014-02-04 02:18:59 PM

nmrsnr: Bloody William: Frankly, it's all a bunch of overly sociologically introspective hand-wringing with little recognition of the problems presented by race relations before integration or just to what extent they were terrible. When a problem is so thoroughly ingrained and completely farked, there is no "good" answer, only an answer that inches us in the right direction so the good one eventually becomes feasible.

I like his concept that zoning laws and property taxes would have helped, because while the concept of sharing a school with black students caused white flight, having black families more readily able to move next door wouldn't have.


Actually, it did.
 
2014-02-04 02:33:42 PM

Uncontrolled_Jibe: You want to explain how making your kids have a less certain future or be in physical danger would be "worth the sacrifice"?


If the other option is "let's ignore the fact that we've been systematically marginalizing and discriminating against a whole race of people, and let them live in the squalor we've forced them into?" Then yeah, it seems like the lesser of two evils in that case.

Saiga410: What is the % of population influx? If the increase of students that need to be brought up to speed removes the ability of the instructor to sufficiently advance the currently up to spped students then we may have a problem here.


Yes, and if they bused all of the children from a single school to another single school, that might have been a problem, but I'm under the impression it wasn't so burdensome on the teacher/student ratio.

ReverendJasen: What is bullshiat is busing my kid an hour away to the farking ghetto school. Especially if you specifically chose where you live based on the local school, are in walking distance, and aren't allowed to go there anymore. No, it's not worth the sacrifice to the kid. They're not Spock, they didn't choose to sacrifice their education for the betterment of the many.

This is how you make people leave your school district.


Back then just having a black kid in the school was enough to make people leave districts. Nowadays busing is much less of an issue because the problems are much more socioeconomic than racial, but back then white people had freedom of movement, but black people didn't, and since the legislatures were white people, white kid schools got the money and black kid schools didn't. You can only bus so many kids out of the city in a given day, and you couldn't just board up all of the schools, there had to be some students who actually went to the schools in the city. Plus, why should the whole burden of busing be borne by the black children? it isn't their fault the schools near them are terrible, that's, in fact, what busing white kids in from the suburbs is trying to rectify.

It was a crappy situation all around, trying to find the least crappy solution isn't easy.
 
2014-02-04 04:20:28 PM

nmrsnr: For making your kid get on a bus to a worse school yeah, that sucks, but might be worth the sacrifice.


No it wouldn't. Were I a parent, that would be tantamount to an open declaration of war. No parent worth a lick would ever let their child be 'a sacrifice'.
 
2014-02-04 04:40:01 PM

MooseUpNorth: nmrsnr: For making your kid get on a bus to a worse school yeah, that sucks, but might be worth the sacrifice.

No it wouldn't. Were I a parent, that would be tantamount to an open declaration of war. No parent worth a lick would ever let their child be 'a sacrifice'.



Oh, fark off. Your overgrown cum-stain isn't any more important than anyone else's and this "for mah kids!!!" makes it acceptable or even noble to be an amoral self-centered cockbag.

This country is full-to-bustin' with selfish, ignorant, shiatkickers... yours don't warrant any special protections or encouragement. Die in a fire and take your waterhead DNA with you.
 
2014-02-04 04:49:55 PM

technicolor-misfit: MooseUpNorth: nmrsnr: For making your kid get on a bus to a worse school yeah, that sucks, but might be worth the sacrifice.

No it wouldn't. Were I a parent, that would be tantamount to an open declaration of war. No parent worth a lick would ever let their child be 'a sacrifice'.


Oh, fark off. Your overgrown cum-stain isn't any more important than anyone else's and this "for mah kids!!!" makes it acceptable or even noble to be an amoral self-centered cockbag.


... Because the solution doesn't lie in holding back schools, or students, who are succeeding. You don't tamper with success. You figure out why the less effective schools are less effective (usually funding, neglect, community issues) and address those root causes. At the end of the day, every student can learn (though not always at the same pace or in the same way or are facing the same obstacles), and it's the responsibility of society as a whole to make sure that every student has that opportunity. Every. Single. One. Were I a parent, I would not let _anybody_ consider my child a sacrifice. As a teacher, I do not let anybody consider any of my students sacrifices. Ever. No child is more important than any other, but all children _without exception_ are important. They are the future.

A society willing to let any child be a sacrifice to 'the system', fundamentally, is the failure.
 
2014-02-04 05:35:10 PM

MooseUpNorth: A society willing to let any child be a sacrifice to 'the system', fundamentally, is the failure.


Except this bullshiat attitude is making millions of children the sacrifice to the alleged "good intentions" of well-to-do parents who want "all the best" for their kids, no matter what the cost to the rest of the kids.

This is why there is so often one stellar school in a system and a bunch of others that are squabbling over the second-rate resources left over after that school has secured most of (and absolutely all the best of) the available resources.


MooseUpNorth: You figure out why the less effective schools are less effective (usually funding, neglect, community issues) and address those root causes.


And how do those schools get the funding and necessary attention when the well-to-do view it as someone diverting those resources away from their child's school? a "sacrifice" they're not willing to make, and which they feel absolutely self-righteous about because they tell themselves they're simply looking after their kids as any decent parent would.

Letting other kids starve to ensure that your kids get lobster is not "protecting" your children or "being a good parent." It's being a greedy asshole. The principle is no different when you apply it to education.
 
2014-02-04 06:01:23 PM

nmrsnr: Uncontrolled_Jibe: You want to explain how making your kids have a less certain future or be in physical danger would be "worth the sacrifice"?

If the other option is "let's ignore the fact that we've been systematically marginalizing and discriminating against a whole race of people, and let them live in the squalor we've forced them into?" Then yeah, it seems like the lesser of two evils in that case.



Have you sent YOUR children to a school where their Education and even safety are threatened or is risking the future of other people's children as easy as spending other people's money?
 
2014-02-04 06:25:21 PM

stewbert: I understand your comment, but this is kind of where it went of the rails in reality. People were not willing to have their own kids sent to worse schools. I'm a parent and I wouldn't support bussing my kid a long distance to a worse school, or even an equal one.


This.

Here's my bussing story.

When I was born, the city I was born in was just beginning bussing, to much controversy.  My parents lived in an affluent suburb with excellent schools.  Thanks to court order, a lot of students would have to be bussed to a low-quality inner city school in a crime-ridden area.

By my first birthday, my parents had moved out of the city and gone back to the small town they came from, with only one elementary school in town, so no bussing.

White flight.  Hurt a lot of cities by making more affluent people move out of urban areas, especially their school district, to preserve the quality of their students.  It was a very unintended consequence that hurt urban tax bases and sent a generation of kids into the suburbs and rural areas.
 
2014-02-04 06:32:48 PM

Saiga410: Take race out of it.

So you are saying that you are going to take my kid and bus him across town so he can go to a poor performing school because......  NO he is going to stay in the good school.

So you are saying you want to implode the poor performing schools and try to average out the performance across the boards.... but my school is the better performing ones, so you are trying to drop the performance of my school?  No, increase the performance of the lower ones, dont drop mine.


You're from Peoria, so your kid's probably a tard anyway.  At least now he'll hopefully be a less-racist tard.
 
2014-02-04 07:26:25 PM

RickyWilliams'sBong: Saiga410: Take race out of it.

So you are saying that you are going to take my kid and bus him across town so he can go to a poor performing school because......  NO he is going to stay in the good school.

So you are saying you want to implode the poor performing schools and try to average out the performance across the boards.... but my school is the better performing ones, so you are trying to drop the performance of my school?  No, increase the performance of the lower ones, dont drop mine.

You're from Peoria, so your kid's probably a tard anyway.  At least now he'll hopefully be a less-racist tard.


Actually once my kid got to kindergarten age I like looked at the school dist and beat feet to one of the better rated rural school districts.
 
2014-02-04 08:51:46 PM

technicolor-misfit: And how do those schools get the funding and necessary attention when the well-to-do view it as someone diverting those resources away from their child's school?


Short, flip answer: Stop electing Republicans.

Slightly longer answer: The last time parents _really_ valued education and transmitted those values to kids was around the 50s and 60s, in part thanks to fear of Commies (Republicans were sort of good for _something_ then, more or less) and Kennedy's challenge to your country, "not because it's easy but _because it's hard_."

To earn the political will to do great things, such as repair your country's attitude towards education, you have to generate hope. For there to be hope, there has to be opportunity. Not equal opportunity, folks were never born equal, not even under Sam Colt. Talents and interests vary widely. Instead, there has to be -plentiful- opportunity. And those opportunities have to come with an honest living wage, secure from the exploitation your workers face today. Well paid employees are well-spending customers. Well paid employees and well-spending customers means plentiful tax revenue for the important things.

Teachers must be seen as, and must actually become, your country's elite.
 
2014-02-04 10:03:15 PM
Teacher quality will never be as good as it was in the 1950s/1960s, because back then highly-qualified women were artificially restricted from other professions.  The smartest women were barred from becoming doctors/lawyers, so they became teachers instead.

That's never coming back.

So, instead of trying to re-capture the 1950s, or trying to re-do the 1970s ("this time it'll work!" - it won't), it'd be better to scrap the current educational system that ties schooling to physical location.  That's a 20th century relic.  We can do better now with technology.
 
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