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(Global Geopolitics)   Germany forcing Greece to eat its veggies for a third time. "They are missing the point: Greece does not need a third bailout, it needs debt restructuring"   ( glblgeopolitics.wordpress.com) divider line
    More: Interesting, German forces, Greece, ignoratio elenchi, debt restructuring, loan origination, fiscal adjustment, rescues, national output  
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1864 clicks; posted to Business » on 03 Feb 2014 at 8:06 AM (3 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-02-03 07:00:36 AM  
That's a fancy way of saying they'd rather like it very much if everyone would just forget about those old loans Greece received and has no intention of paying back.

How responsible of them.
 
2014-02-03 07:10:11 AM  
So does my uncle. Damn banks.
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2014-02-03 07:22:24 AM  
I think they are going to end up having to write off much of the debt and move Greece off of the Euro.  Greece never even qualified to be on the Euro in the first place.
 
2014-02-03 08:21:48 AM  
Greece already had a massive debt restructuring, where most debt holders excluding the ecb and IMF took 75% writedowns.

Calling for a debt restructuring and refusing to let the ECB write down the debt (as zee Germans did this morning) is a feat worthy of a gold metal in mental gymnastics.
 
2014-02-03 09:06:53 AM  
Five posts so far and nobody complaining about austerity? Fark, you're slipping.
 
2014-02-03 09:08:02 AM  
farking austerity!
 
2014-02-03 09:10:25 AM  

dumbobruni: Greece already had a massive debt restructuring, where most debt holders excluding the ecb and IMF took 75% writedowns.

Calling for a debt restructuring and refusing to let the ECB write down the debt (as zee Germans did this morning) is a feat worthy of a gold metal in mental gymnastics.


Probably would help if the Greeks didn't consider tax evasion a sport and politicians actually enforced tax law instead of just raising the rates people don't pay.
 
2014-02-03 09:24:32 AM  
Greeks don't like having things forced down their throats.

Other places, sure, just not in the mouth.
 
2014-02-03 09:27:52 AM  

inglixthemad: dumbobruni: Greece already had a massive debt restructuring, where most debt holders excluding the ecb and IMF took 75% writedowns.

Calling for a debt restructuring and refusing to let the ECB write down the debt (as zee Germans did this morning) is a feat worthy of a gold metal in mental gymnastics.

Probably would help if the Greeks didn't consider tax evasion a sport and politicians actually enforced tax law instead of just raising the rates people don't pay.


If only they had the tax base of the United States, then they could evade taxes with impunity!
 
2014-02-03 09:29:25 AM  
Great, another Global Geopolitics thread.

Now I have to go to the Economist to see what actually happened.
 
2014-02-03 09:38:52 AM  
How about they restructure it into drachmas?
 
2014-02-03 09:39:39 AM  
 said the shadow development minister and economics professor, Giorgos Stathakis

Man, even German economics professors have badass titles
 
2014-02-03 09:56:36 AM  

Marcus Aurelius: Great, another Global Geopolitics thread.

Now I have to go to the Economist to see what actually happened.


Yep.
 
2014-02-03 10:01:07 AM  

DaStompa: said the shadow development minister and economics professor, Giorgos Stathakis

Man, even German economics professors have badass titles


IIRC, any country with a parliamentary system has those. I remember hearing about England's "shadow defense minister" and thinking it was way, way cooler than it turned out to be when I googled it.
 
2014-02-03 10:17:51 AM  

inglixthemad: dumbobruni: Greece already had a massive debt restructuring, where most debt holders excluding the ecb and IMF took 75% writedowns.

Calling for a debt restructuring and refusing to let the ECB write down the debt (as zee Germans did this morning) is a feat worthy of a gold metal in mental gymnastics.

Probably would help if the Greeks didn't consider tax evasion a sport and politicians actually enforced tax law instead of just raising the rates people don't pay.


I bet if Greece raises taxes even more, provides even more of a social security net and allows in more illegal immigrants, this will work itself out.  Right, Obama?
blogs.denverpost.com
 
2014-02-03 10:47:17 AM  

Arkanaut: How about they restructure it into drachmas?


Heh.
 
2014-02-03 10:47:47 AM  

inglixthemad: dumbobruni: Greece already had a massive debt restructuring, where most debt holders excluding the ecb and IMF took 75% writedowns.

Calling for a debt restructuring and refusing to let the ECB write down the debt (as zee Germans did this morning) is a feat worthy of a gold metal in mental gymnastics.

Probably would help if the Greeks didn't consider tax evasion a sport and politicians actually enforced tax law instead of just raising the rates people don't pay.


It also probably would help if Greece's richest families (shipping business) weren't shielded from income taxes in the Greek constitution.
 
2014-02-03 10:48:36 AM  

vpb: I think they are going to end up having to write off much of the debt and move Greece off of the Euro.  Greece never even qualified to be on the Euro in the first place.


this is so easy to fix
kick them the fark out
never let them back in, at least not until they pay back all of their debt in full, which is the same as never

FFS
how confusing is this?
They could have easily dealt with this back in 2004
 
2014-02-03 10:58:22 AM  

Nemo's Brother: inglixthemad: dumbobruni: Greece already had a massive debt restructuring, where most debt holders excluding the ecb and IMF took 75% writedowns.

Calling for a debt restructuring and refusing to let the ECB write down the debt (as zee Germans did this morning) is a feat worthy of a gold metal in mental gymnastics.

Probably would help if the Greeks didn't consider tax evasion a sport and politicians actually enforced tax law instead of just raising the rates people don't pay.

I bet if Greece raises taxes even more, provides even more of a social security net and allows in more illegal immigrants, this will work itself out.  Right, Obama?
[blogs.denverpost.com image 495x359]


Why is Obama, the American President who has removed the most illegal immigrants in history, and under whom immigration has dropped, associated with "allowing in more illegal immigrants"?

//before you go the "amnesty" route, I'd also like to point out that his Executive Order only pertains to illegal immigrants who have been in the country for several years.
 
2014-02-03 11:08:40 AM  
Remember the last time Germany pushed Greece around?

cdn.theatlantic.com
 
2014-02-03 11:17:53 AM  

macross87: Just don't mention the war!


TV's Vinnie: Remember the last time Germany pushed Greece around?

[cdn.theatlantic.com image 850x578]


oops?
 
2014-02-03 11:18:33 AM  

Nemo's Brother: I bet if Greece raises taxes even more, provides even more of a social security net and allows in more illegal immigrants, this will work itself out. Right, Obama?


I bet if Greece lowered taxes for the rich, eliminated regulations on banks, and cut social safety nets and allowed more offshoring of jobs, this will work itself out. Right, Bush?

semitrue.com
 
2014-02-03 11:21:59 AM  

vpb: I think they are going to end up having to write off much of the debt and move Greece off of the Euro.  Greece never even qualified to be on the Euro in the first place.


If Greece were on the drachma, they'd be on the road to recovery already.  Their currency would be devalued--a warning to any idiots (like Jon Corzine) that investing in the country and its debt isn't smart.  But they'd at least be OK, with their joke of an economy puttering along on olives, tourism and fraud.
 
2014-02-03 11:24:16 AM  

AverageAmericanGuy: That's a fancy way of saying they'd rather like it very much if everyone would just forget about those old loans Greece received and has no intention of paying back.

How responsible of them.



And if anyone would know about forgetting about / deferring/ restructuring debt... it would be.... Germany
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2011/jun/21/germany-greece- gr eek-debt-crisis
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agreement_on_German_External_Debts
 
2014-02-03 11:29:18 AM  

inglixthemad: dumbobruni: Greece already had a massive debt restructuring, where most debt holders excluding the ecb and IMF took 75% writedowns.

Calling for a debt restructuring and refusing to let the ECB write down the debt (as zee Germans did this morning) is a feat worthy of a gold metal in mental gymnastics.

Probably would help if the Greeks didn't consider tax evasion a sport and politicians actually enforced tax law instead of just raising the rates people don't pay.


If they can't run a country like grownups, then they can go sit at the kids' table.
 
2014-02-03 11:32:10 AM  

Princess Ryans Knickers: Nemo's Brother: I bet if Greece raises taxes even more, provides even more of a social security net and allows in more illegal immigrants, this will work itself out. Right, Obama?

I bet if Greece lowered taxes for the rich, eliminated regulations on banks, and cut social safety nets and allowed more offshoring of jobs, this will work itself out. Right, Bush?

[semitrue.com image 200x262]


OK can we at least agree that because neither of the US selfimposed plans will not work for Greece, the only suitable solution is glass parking lot preferable initiated from LEO.
 
2014-02-03 11:47:14 AM  
A country that has nothing left to give except rampant unemployment and tax evaders?

Let's ask them for more concessions and rape the rest of the population, surely that'll work!

It's time for Europe to negotiate in different ways. Repayment of debt should be converted to commodities (10 euros debt forgiveness per kg of feta cheese, etc..), kick Greece out of the Euro, and let Greece bring back it's own currency and unfark their economy.

And to combat tax evasion, make the new currency 100% electronic. It's obvious you can't trust us Greeks to pay taxes.
 
2014-02-03 12:09:11 PM  

TV's Vinnie: Remember the last time Germany pushed Greece around?

[cdn.theatlantic.com image 850x578]


I count nine Germans in that photo.  Wonder how many lived through the war.
 
2014-02-03 12:39:22 PM  

mainstreet62: A country that has nothing left to give except rampant unemployment and tax evaders?

Let's ask them for more concessions and rape the rest of the population, surely that'll work!

It's time for Europe to negotiate in different ways. Repayment of debt should be converted to commodities (10 euros debt forgiveness per kg of feta cheese, etc..), kick Greece out of the Euro, and let Greece bring back it's own currency and unfark their economy.

And to combat tax evasion, make the new currency 100% electronic. It's obvious you can't trust us Greeks to pay taxes.


Now, mention this to a Republican and how this could happen here and they'll run away and hide.
 
2014-02-03 12:41:57 PM  

Gunther: DaStompa: said the shadow development minister and economics professor, Giorgos Stathakis

Man, even German economics professors have badass titles

IIRC, any country with a parliamentary system has those. I remember hearing about England's "shadow defense minister" and thinking it was way, way cooler than it turned out to be when I googled it.


Think of it as having a Vice President or alternate juror for every position.
 
2014-02-03 12:52:56 PM  
three bailouts.

three bailouts.

the question is, how many bailouts does it take before even a socialist European figures out bailouts don't work?
 
2014-02-03 01:11:45 PM  

SlothB77: three bailouts.

three bailouts.

the question is, how many bailouts does it take before even a socialist European figures out bailouts the Eurodon't work?

 
2014-02-03 01:16:13 PM  

JohnAnnArbor: TV's Vinnie: Remember the last time Germany pushed Greece around?

[cdn.theatlantic.com image 850x578]

I count nine Germans in that photo.  Wonder how many lived through the war.


Or how many Greek civilians in that photo survived?
 
2014-02-03 01:17:25 PM  

TV's Vinnie: JohnAnnArbor: TV's Vinnie: Remember the last time Germany pushed Greece around?

[cdn.theatlantic.com image 850x578]

I count nine Germans in that photo.  Wonder how many lived through the war.

Or how many Greek civilians in that photo survived?


Yep.  Scary times.
 
2014-02-03 01:24:50 PM  
They need to follow the Iceland route, complete repudiation.  Agree to pay all debts in drachmas.
 
2014-02-03 01:28:36 PM  

JohnAnnArbor: SlothB77: three bailouts.

three bailouts.

the question is, how many bailouts does it take before even a socialist European figures out bailouts the Euro European Socialism don't work?

 
2014-02-03 01:29:05 PM  
What Greece needs is to start getting their businesses and people to start paying taxes.  Everywhere I went there (except for the hotels) only wanted cash, cash, cash, cash.  Wonder why?
 
2014-02-03 01:30:17 PM  

Bondith: inglixthemad: dumbobruni: Greece already had a massive debt restructuring, where most debt holders excluding the ecb and IMF took 75% writedowns.

Calling for a debt restructuring and refusing to let the ECB write down the debt (as zee Germans did this morning) is a feat worthy of a gold metal in mental gymnastics.

Probably would help if the Greeks didn't consider tax evasion a sport and politicians actually enforced tax law instead of just raising the rates people don't pay.

If they can't run a country like grownups, then they can go sit at the kids' table.


Yes, we all agree.

But should the Germans be allowed to destroy the Greek economy first, like they seem hell bent on doing?
 
2014-02-03 01:35:39 PM  

opiumpoopy: Bondith: inglixthemad: dumbobruni: Greece already had a massive debt restructuring, where most debt holders excluding the ecb and IMF took 75% writedowns.

Calling for a debt restructuring and refusing to let the ECB write down the debt (as zee Germans did this morning) is a feat worthy of a gold metal in mental gymnastics.

Probably would help if the Greeks didn't consider tax evasion a sport and politicians actually enforced tax law instead of just raising the rates people don't pay.

If they can't run a country like grownups, then they can go sit at the kids' table.

Yes, we all agree.

But should the Germans be allowed to destroy the Greek economy first, like they seem hell bent on doing?


If any other country has a problem with German deep sixing Greece then they can become the lender of last resort to Greece.   Looking around... yep they have voted to allow German to do this.
 
2014-02-03 01:48:56 PM  

Nemo's Brother: JohnAnnArbor: SlothB77: three bailouts.

three bailouts.

the question is, how many bailouts does it take before even a socialist European figures out bailouts the Euro European Socialism don't work?


Yes, it's Greece, a tiny country of 10 million people on the edge of Europe, that proves "European Socialism" doesn't work, not Germany, the UK, France, Italy...

Plus, if a financial crisis that creates debt crises is proof that a system of government doesn't work, then NO economic system has ever worked.
 
2014-02-03 01:53:06 PM  

Saiga410: opiumpoopy: Bondith: inglixthemad: dumbobruni: Greece already had a massive debt restructuring, where most debt holders excluding the ecb and IMF took 75% writedowns.

Calling for a debt restructuring and refusing to let the ECB write down the debt (as zee Germans did this morning) is a feat worthy of a gold metal in mental gymnastics.

Probably would help if the Greeks didn't consider tax evasion a sport and politicians actually enforced tax law instead of just raising the rates people don't pay.

If they can't run a country like grownups, then they can go sit at the kids' table.

Yes, we all agree.

But should the Germans be allowed to destroy the Greek economy first, like they seem hell bent on doing?

If any other country has a problem with German deep sixing Greece then they can become the lender of last resort to Greece.   Looking around... yep they have voted to allow German to do this.


But it doesn't mean we can't point and laugh at ze Germans. Greece needs to grow out of this mess. The cuts have done nothing, other than make Greece less secure. If they want to get their money back, they should be playing the long game and letting them get their economy healthy.
 
2014-02-03 01:57:46 PM  

opiumpoopy: Bondith: inglixthemad: dumbobruni: Greece already had a massive debt restructuring, where most debt holders excluding the ecb and IMF took 75% writedowns.

Calling for a debt restructuring and refusing to let the ECB write down the debt (as zee Germans did this morning) is a feat worthy of a gold metal in mental gymnastics.

Probably would help if the Greeks didn't consider tax evasion a sport and politicians actually enforced tax law instead of just raising the rates people don't pay.

If they can't run a country like grownups, then they can go sit at the kids' table.

Yes, we all agree.

But should the Germans be allowed to destroy the Greek economy first, like they seem hell bent on doing?


If the Greeks don't like the German medicine they don't have to take it.

Just leave the Euro. The Greeks shouldn't have been in it to start with and when they joined the accounts should have been checked by someone other than Goldman Sachs.

It's a choice between shiatty choice number one and shiatty choice number two. The Greeks can blame anyone they like but at the end of the day Greece is a democracy so the buck stops with the voters.
 
2014-02-03 02:15:06 PM  

inglixthemad: dumbobruni: Greece already had a massive debt restructuring, where most debt holders excluding the ecb and IMF took 75% writedowns.

Calling for a debt restructuring and refusing to let the ECB write down the debt (as zee Germans did this morning) is a feat worthy of a gold metal in mental gymnastics.

Probably would help if the Greeks didn't consider tax evasion a sport and politicians actually enforced tax law instead of just raising the rates people don't pay.


Shipping Tycons do pay taxes thanks to the Greek Constitution.
 
2014-02-03 02:54:02 PM  

mcreadyblue: inglixthemad: dumbobruni: Greece already had a massive debt restructuring, where most debt holders excluding the ecb and IMF took 75% writedowns.

Calling for a debt restructuring and refusing to let the ECB write down the debt (as zee Germans did this morning) is a feat worthy of a gold metal in mental gymnastics.

Probably would help if the Greeks didn't consider tax evasion a sport and politicians actually enforced tax law instead of just raising the rates people don't pay.

Shipping Tycons do pay taxes thanks to the Greek Constitution.


Not on international earnings for their vessels, which are functionally all earnings..  Plus they get dozens of other tax breaks.  There is a reason Greeks own so much dry bulk tonnage.
 
2014-02-03 03:49:15 PM  
i.imgur.com
 
2014-02-03 03:50:55 PM  

Arkanaut: Nemo's Brother: JohnAnnArbor: SlothB77: three bailouts.

three bailouts.

the question is, how many bailouts does it take before even a socialist European figures out bailouts the Euro European Socialism don't work?

Yes, it's Greece, a tiny country of 10 million people on the edge of Europe, that proves "European Socialism" doesn't work, not Germany, the UK, France, Italy...

Plus, if a financial crisis that creates debt crises is proof that a system of government doesn't work, then NO economic system has ever worked.


To be fair, three of those four countries aren't doing so hot right now.
 
2014-02-03 03:59:51 PM  

Publikwerks: Saiga410: opiumpoopy: Bondith: inglixthemad: dumbobruni: Greece already had a massive debt restructuring, where most debt holders excluding the ecb and IMF took 75% writedowns.

Calling for a debt restructuring and refusing to let the ECB write down the debt (as zee Germans did this morning) is a feat worthy of a gold metal in mental gymnastics.

Probably would help if the Greeks didn't consider tax evasion a sport and politicians actually enforced tax law instead of just raising the rates people don't pay.

If they can't run a country like grownups, then they can go sit at the kids' table.

Yes, we all agree.

But should the Germans be allowed to destroy the Greek economy first, like they seem hell bent on doing?

If any other country has a problem with German deep sixing Greece then they can become the lender of last resort to Greece.   Looking around... yep they have voted to allow German to do this.

But it doesn't mean we can't point and laugh at ze Germans. Greece needs to grow out of this mess. The cuts have done nothing, other than make Greece less secure. If they want to get their money back, they should be playing the long game and letting them get their economy healthy.


Frankly the Germans should just stop lending them money.
 
2014-02-03 04:53:56 PM  

jjorsett: Five posts so far and nobody complaining about austerity? Fark, you're slipping.


Austerity, as applied, kills me. Government, especially the sorts that might be willing to bail out industries, gets the austerity bug when the economy is in decline due to high debts caused from years of spending beyond their revenues in good years. But austerity and lavish spending need to be counter to the behavior of the economy at large.

When the private sector is doing good, generating lots of revenue and employing loads of people, government should be more austere. Then, if a sector goes wobbly, they can inject a little more money into the economy through requisitions and works projects to keep the economic activity up. If the economy is good and you boost it higher with government spending then where are you going to be able to boost it when things go sour. And the economy sours and you retract spending who in the hell thinks the economy is going to expand?

/I could do a PhD in economics on my head.
//But I'd have to deal with economists on a regular basis
///And not just when I call mom.
 
2014-02-03 06:48:16 PM  
That's right.  One more "bailout" and another round of austerity is all it'll take.  Just like the previous efforts.  The theory can't fail, it can only be failed.

In all seriousness, if Greece had simply dropped that stupid farking currency four years ago, they'd be recovering by now.  Just drop it.  Avoid the flames while the idiot Krauts burn Europe to the ground again.
 
2014-02-03 07:38:03 PM  

wildcardjack: jjorsett: Five posts so far and nobody complaining about austerity? Fark, you're slipping.

Austerity, as applied, kills me. Government, especially the sorts that might be willing to bail out industries, gets the austerity bug when the economy is in decline due to high debts caused from years of spending beyond their revenues in good years. But austerity and lavish spending need to be counter to the behavior of the economy at large.

When the private sector is doing good, generating lots of revenue and employing loads of people, government should be more austere. Then, if a sector goes wobbly, they can inject a little more money into the economy through requisitions and works projects to keep the economic activity up. If the economy is good and you boost it higher with government spending then where are you going to be able to boost it when things go sour. And the economy sours and you retract spending who in the hell thinks the economy is going to expand?


Here in California people push to turn up the spending spigots when times are good because we're rolling in dough. Then they push to turn them up when times are bad because people are hurting and need help. It's always time for more spending.
 
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