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(Salon)   Why Communism should get a do-over and the 20th Century doesn't count   (salon.com) divider line 258
    More: Unlikely, means of production, David Koch, group hug, recent deaths, collapse of the Soviet Union, communists, Greg Gutfeld, egalitarianisms  
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2242 clicks; posted to Politics » on 02 Feb 2014 at 7:04 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



258 Comments   (+0 »)
   
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2014-02-02 02:56:52 PM  
Progressives: making excuses for every failed, murderous, epic disaster of communism of the last 100 years.

"trust us, we only kill those who can't be re-educated"
 
2014-02-02 03:05:00 PM  
I noticed a distinct lack of mention of the Ukrainian famine.
 
2014-02-02 03:10:48 PM  
More derp from Jesse Myerson.
 
2014-02-02 03:25:31 PM  
Khmer Rouge is missing.

And that brings us to the main point.

Communist atrocities are so catastrophic that it is very easy to forget a few significant genocidal events
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2014-02-02 03:27:23 PM  
It's funny that people think that dictatorships like Stalinist USSR and Maoist china are "communist".   They weren't much like what Marx wrote about. They may have called themselves that but they were just dictatorships.

Sort of like the DPRK is a "Republic" I guess.  I suppose they think that "banana republics" are actual democratic republics and not simple dictatorships?
 
2014-02-02 03:30:46 PM  

vpb: It's funny that people think that dictatorships like Stalinist USSR and Maoist china are "communist".   They weren't much like what Marx wrote about. They may have called themselves that but they were just dictatorships.

Sort of like the DPRK is a "Republic" I guess.  I suppose they think that "banana republics" are actual democratic republics and not simple dictatorships?


Every country who has tried Communism became a police state. Every single one of them. Even the ones with the best intentions (Vietnam, Yugoslavia, Romania) turned their nations into despotic rule. They aren't Communist because Communism doesn't work as no one can become truly Communist.
 
2014-02-02 04:16:43 PM  
No TRUE communist puts sugar on his porridge.
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2014-02-02 06:03:30 PM  
cman:

Every country who has tried Communism became a police state. Every single one of them. Even the ones with the best intentions (Vietnam, Yugoslavia, Romania) turned their nations into despotic rule. They aren't Communist because Communism doesn't work as no one can become truly Communist.

That's actually a good point.  I don't know that they really tried communism, but they certainly became despotic.

And I don't think that communism would really work if it was tried because it assumes that people will change their nature and become totally honest and good because they have control of the government.

Still, I don't think that Stalin was really a Marxist.
 
2014-02-02 06:58:02 PM  

vpb: And I don't think that communism would really work if it was tried because it assumes that people will change their nature and become totally honest and good because they have control of the government.


And this is the same reason libertarianism will never work because it assumes that people will change their nature and become totally honest and good because they have eliminated the government.
 
2014-02-02 07:03:28 PM  

LordZorch: Progressives: making excuses for every failed, murderous, epic disaster of communism of the last 100 years.

"trust us, we only kill those who can't be re-educated"


Manifest Destiny.  "We only kill those weaker than ourselves."
 
2014-02-02 07:06:10 PM  
So, can we put the Salon folks up against the wall already?
 
2014-02-02 07:15:48 PM  
We're not the do-over?
 
2014-02-02 07:17:04 PM  
FARK NO
not even going to pretend to read the article

capitalism sucks
communism sucks

HYBRID for the win
 
2014-02-02 07:21:01 PM  
Ah, well, if communism doesn't ever work, I guess we can't really complain about ever increasing wealth inequality, can we?

Because fixing that that would be communism.
 
2014-02-02 07:23:12 PM  

violentsalvation: More derp from Jesse Myerson.


Derp?? I didn't detect any reactionary prose.  He seemed rather pinko, actually.

Derp is the tea party line.  Communism is just stupid.

Writing this from Derpistan...  Proud resident.  I'm taking it back!
 
2014-02-02 07:26:30 PM  
The system we have now sucks, but I came across this great idea, and if everyone agrees to follow it exactly, it will fix every problem in the world. I know people have been saying they've tried it before, but they didn't implement the purest version of the idea. You can tell because it didn't fix all the problems. If they had, everything would have worked perfectly.

Yeah, it's a pretty great idea.

-every ideologue ever
 
2014-02-02 07:27:18 PM  
i thought that the northern european social democracies already were 'communism that works'
 
2014-02-02 07:27:36 PM  
I once had a smart-@rse tell me that "communism is the perfect system" {dramatic pause and patronising smile} "but people aren't perfect".

I replied "if communism was perfect, it would know about, take account of, and overcome the people's imperfections"

He didn't talk to me after that.
 
2014-02-02 07:29:48 PM  

fusillade762: vpb: And I don't think that communism would really work if it was tried because it assumes that people will change their nature and become totally honest and good because they have control of the government.

And this is the same reason libertarianism will never work because it assumes that people will change their nature and become totally honest and good because they have eliminated the government.



I would say the failure isn't that everyone has to change their behavior. I'd say the problem is there are enough selfish jerks who will use true libertarianism as a free pass to hurt others for personal gain.
 
2014-02-02 07:31:05 PM  

ol' gormsby: I once had a smart-@rse tell me that "communism is the perfect system" {dramatic pause and patronising smile} "but people aren't perfect".

I replied "if communism was perfect, it would know about, take account of, and overcome the people's imperfections"

He didn't talk to me after that.


That's my argument for why Libertarianism doesn't work.
 
2014-02-02 07:33:51 PM  

ol' gormsby: I once had a smart-@rse tell me that "communism is the perfect system" {dramatic pause and patronising smile} "but people aren't perfect".

I replied "if communism was perfect, it would know about, take account of, and overcome the people's imperfections"

He didn't talk to me after that.


"There's one hole in every revolution, large or small. And it's one word long- PEOPLE. No matter how big the idea they all stand under, people are small and weak and cheap and frightened. It's people that kill every revolution."

~ Warren Ellis
 
2014-02-02 07:34:34 PM  
So that guys a dope, regardless, we all may want to contemplate the end of work, when automation and other technological and cultural pressures eliminates jobs and doesn't create new ones.

i.imgur.com

We may not create this third sector that Rifkin predicts, but will we be okay seeing 1/3rd or more of our citizens doing nothing more each day than socializing on FARK and reddit?

Will we be okay giving them unemployment and SNAP?

Will it be something to strive to? I'm finally out of that job, thank god. No more house, no more 9-5, no more stress?
 
2014-02-02 07:34:55 PM  
Unless we have replicators and holodecks, Communism won't work.

/ufp all the way baby.
 
2014-02-02 07:35:40 PM  
The Republican idea to equate Democrats, liberalism, socialism, Marxism, and communism all as the same thing might turn out to be a big mistake.

Like the kid who tries pot for the first time and realizes "They lied to me about this, maybe they're lying about all the other drugs too," people might look around and see mild tax increases on the wealthy helping the economy and think "Maybe this communism thing isn't so bad after all."
 
2014-02-02 07:38:54 PM  
Totalitarianism =/= communism.
 
2014-02-02 07:40:41 PM  

CorporatePerson: The Republican idea to equate Democrats, liberalism, socialism, Marxism, and communism all as the same thing might turn out to be a big mistake.

Like the kid who tries pot for the first time and realizes "They lied to me about this, maybe they're lying about all the other drugs too," people might look around and see mild tax increases on the wealthy helping the economy and think "Maybe this communism thing isn't so bad after all."


I agree, I can't stand the people who think that just because I think unfettered capitalism is bad means that I must be some red-blodded communist who worships Stalin, Lenin, and Marx.

They really can't grasp the concept that there is indeed a middle ground between the two.
 
2014-02-02 07:51:23 PM  
i.imgur.com
 
2014-02-02 07:51:51 PM  

Mrtraveler01: CorporatePerson: The Republican idea to equate Democrats, liberalism, socialism, Marxism, and communism all as the same thing might turn out to be a big mistake.

Like the kid who tries pot for the first time and realizes "They lied to me about this, maybe they're lying about all the other drugs too," people might look around and see mild tax increases on the wealthy helping the economy and think "Maybe this communism thing isn't so bad after all."

I agree, I can't stand the people who think that just because I think unfettered capitalism is bad means that I must be some red-blodded communist who worships Stalin, Lenin, and Marx.

They really can't grasp the concept that there is indeed a middle ground between the two.


There us no middle ground in good versus evil.
 
2014-02-02 07:53:57 PM  
It's funny. I can only speak for myself here, but as a 30-year-old who has watched the political right in America move farther and farther off into batshiat insanity, I've found myself more and more a communist sympathizer.

I was a textbook right-wing authoritarian in highschool, before I tried pot and the whole house of cards began to crumble, but even then I thought, "Boy, communism seems pretty damn fair and ideal." My professors and right-minded friends would ALWAYS reply with "Yeah. Too bad it only works on paper, though." I guess I just never fully accepted that response.

I'm not looking for argument or even discussion in writing this, I'm just being honest with my personal political opinions. I'm sick of seeing everyone around me screwed. Decent, hardworking people, just subjugated deeper and deeper by a monied class that doesn't give two shiats about their fellow man, or even the environment in which they live. The rich amass wealth to the point of abject obscenity, destroy the planet, and put out as much propaganda as money can buy to convince as many people as they can that reality is exactly the opposite. fark that. fark capitalism. Let's try something else. The more extreme the right becomes, the more extreme my tack to the left. I pray I'm not alone.
 
2014-02-02 07:53:59 PM  

SuperT: Unless we have replicators and holodecks, Communism won't work.

/ufp all the way baby.


We have information replicators. They're called the internet.
 
2014-02-02 07:56:11 PM  

tlchwi02: i thought that the northern european social democracies already were 'communism that works'


Ah, but can they maintain it indefinitely? I'm pretty sure most of Northern Europe is below replacement birth rates, and they're having trouble integrating foreigners to make up for that.

Oh, and low birthrates seem to have been a problem in the USSR.

As for me, I think representive democratic capitalism sounds like a great idea, but we seem to have misplaced it somewhere.
 
2014-02-02 07:57:12 PM  
Communism works great on paper, less so in reality.

That said, Communism =/= Socialism.

I'd be ecstatic if the US was more like Finland.
 
2014-02-02 07:58:23 PM  
SALON.COM: Refuting arguments that no one has actually made since 1995.
 
2014-02-02 07:58:59 PM  

sendtodave: Mrtraveler01: CorporatePerson: The Republican idea to equate Democrats, liberalism, socialism, Marxism, and communism all as the same thing might turn out to be a big mistake.

Like the kid who tries pot for the first time and realizes "They lied to me about this, maybe they're lying about all the other drugs too," people might look around and see mild tax increases on the wealthy helping the economy and think "Maybe this communism thing isn't so bad after all."

I agree, I can't stand the people who think that just because I think unfettered capitalism is bad means that I must be some red-blodded communist who worships Stalin, Lenin, and Marx.

They really can't grasp the concept that there is indeed a middle ground between the two.

There us no middle ground in good versus evil.


There is an interesting thing happening in the Nordic nations. They have experimented with Democratic Socialism and they seem to be doing fine. Unlike Communism, Democratic Socialism understands the needs for a healthy market place. Its called a Mixed Economy, a welfare state. I don't know if it will work for us in the United States. Economic policies that work in one country may not with another. Shock Doctrine did wonders for Chile, but in Poland and Russia, Shock Economics brought their economies to their knees.
 
2014-02-02 08:01:23 PM  
That's pretty much Salon's masthead, isn't it?
 
2014-02-02 08:01:52 PM  

cman: sendtodave: Mrtraveler01: CorporatePerson: The Republican idea to equate Democrats, liberalism, socialism, Marxism, and communism all as the same thing might turn out to be a big mistake.

Like the kid who tries pot for the first time and realizes "They lied to me about this, maybe they're lying about all the other drugs too," people might look around and see mild tax increases on the wealthy helping the economy and think "Maybe this communism thing isn't so bad after all."

I agree, I can't stand the people who think that just because I think unfettered capitalism is bad means that I must be some red-blodded communist who worships Stalin, Lenin, and Marx.

They really can't grasp the concept that there is indeed a middle ground between the two.

There us no middle ground in good versus evil.

There is an interesting thing happening in the Nordic nations. They have experimented with Democratic Socialism and they seem to be doing fine. Unlike Communism, Democratic Socialism understands the needs for a healthy market place. Its called a Mixed Economy, a welfare state. I don't know if it will work for us in the United States. Economic policies that work in one country may not with another. Shock Doctrine did wonders for Chile, but in Poland and Russia, Shock Economics brought their economies to their knees.


There's a lot of logic in this post.
 
2014-02-02 08:05:07 PM  

RoyBatty: We may not create this third sector that Rifkin predicts, but will we be okay seeing 1/3rd or more of our citizens doing nothing more each day than socializing on FARK and reddit?


That would be kind of a dramatic reduction, wouldn't it? I think if the layabouts could be reduced to 1/2 that we'd be alright...
 
2014-02-02 08:05:59 PM  

SuperT: Unless we have replicators and holodecks, Communism won't work.

/ufp all the way baby.


What about Soylent Green and the Orgasmatron?
 
2014-02-02 08:09:24 PM  

sendtodave: Mrtraveler01: CorporatePerson: The Republican idea to equate Democrats, liberalism, socialism, Marxism, and communism all as the same thing might turn out to be a big mistake.

Like the kid who tries pot for the first time and realizes "They lied to me about this, maybe they're lying about all the other drugs too," people might look around and see mild tax increases on the wealthy helping the economy and think "Maybe this communism thing isn't so bad after all."

I agree, I can't stand the people who think that just because I think unfettered capitalism is bad means that I must be some red-blodded communist who worships Stalin, Lenin, and Marx.

They really can't grasp the concept that there is indeed a middle ground between the two.

There us no middle ground in good versus evil.


Come now, capitalism isn't ENTIRELY evil.
 
2014-02-02 08:09:28 PM  
I think Communism would be a great system if you could enter into it voluntarily. Life in a kibbutz is by most accounts pretty great. The problem comes with converting people to your ideology with force, which is never going to work.
 
2014-02-02 08:09:40 PM  

sendtodave: Mrtraveler01: CorporatePerson: The Republican idea to equate Democrats, liberalism, socialism, Marxism, and communism all as the same thing might turn out to be a big mistake.

Like the kid who tries pot for the first time and realizes "They lied to me about this, maybe they're lying about all the other drugs too," people might look around and see mild tax increases on the wealthy helping the economy and think "Maybe this communism thing isn't so bad after all."

I agree, I can't stand the people who think that just because I think unfettered capitalism is bad means that I must be some red-blodded communist who worships Stalin, Lenin, and Marx.

They really can't grasp the concept that there is indeed a middle ground between the two.

There us no middle ground in good versus evil.


Interestingly, the 'middle ground' is good. The evil is the extremes (unfettered capitalism/communism)/
 
2014-02-02 08:09:58 PM  

CorporatePerson: The Republican idea to equate Democrats, liberalism, socialism, Marxism, and communism all as the same thing might turn out to be a big mistake.

Like the kid who tries pot for the first time and realizes "They lied to me about this, maybe they're lying about all the other drugs too," people might look around and see mild tax increases on the wealthy helping the economy and think "Maybe this communism thing isn't so bad after all."


Wow, did you hit the nail on the head!

I don't care though. I still feel the way I feel.
 
2014-02-02 08:11:18 PM  
One Weird Trick That Will Make Communism Work In The United States: Click Here To Learn More
 
2014-02-02 08:11:46 PM  
The "model democratic socialist" Nordic countries have been moving rightward for the past two decades.  They're all closer to the United States' hybrid economy than they are to socialism.
 
2014-02-02 08:13:14 PM  

amyldoanitrite: It's funny. I can only speak for myself here, but as a 30-year-old who has watched the political right in America move farther and farther off into batshiat insanity, I've found myself more and more a communist sympathizer.


If you're so sympathetic, perhaps you should learn something about it, and meet some people from current or ex-communist countries. While many may be ok with the democratic socialism of western Europe which is constantly decried in America, if you meet one who is still in favor of communism, odds are that his father sent people to die in prison and took their property. That's how it works.
 
2014-02-02 08:13:26 PM  

namatad: capitalism sucks
communism sucks

HYBRID for the win


Neither, FTW. Why the hellare we bickering over economic philosophies that are over a century old? It makes it sound like the entire field of economics hasn't had a significant advance since the early 20th century. If we can't design a superior economic system to either of those, then we are a failure as a society.
 
2014-02-02 08:13:41 PM  

LordZorch: Progressives: making excuses for every failed, murderous, epic disaster of communism of the last 100 years.

"trust us, we only kill those who can't be re-educated"


We progressives don't want a Communist state, well at least us sane ones. What we one is a Socialist Mixed Market state that yes regulates and heavily taxes the top and middle productive citizens to prevent the poor and disable from falling into an economic hell.
 
2014-02-02 08:13:45 PM  

wildcardjack: tlchwi02: i thought that the northern european social democracies already were 'communism that works'

Ah, but can they maintain it indefinitely? I'm pretty sure most of Northern Europe is below replacement birth rates, and they're having trouble integrating foreigners to make up for that.

Oh, and low birthrates seem to have been a problem in the USSR.

As for me, I think representive democratic capitalism sounds like a great idea, but we seem to have misplaced it somewhere.


i guess, but really it only 'worked' for the vast majority of people in the US for the relatively narrow 1950-1975 time period. its been downhill for the working man since about then
 
2014-02-02 08:13:51 PM  

Infernalist: I'd be ecstatic if the US was more like Finland.


i.imgur.com

/Go Retarded Lions for the win!
 
2014-02-02 08:16:18 PM  

wiredmaverick: Life in a kibbutz is by most accounts pretty great.


See previous comment. There's a reason that there aren't any kibbutzim any longer: because they're voluntary. At first, some of the people realize that they don't have to work, because someone else will pull their weight for them. Eventually the people who are doing all the work become disillusioned and leave. And that's it.
 
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