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(Salon)   Mother nearly falls into a fit of apoplexy and is forced to confront her irrational fear of the color pink when her daughter asks for a pink pair or "sparkly princess tennis shoes." Because FEMINISM   (salon.com) divider line 333
    More: Ironic, phobias, Disney Princess  
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8853 clicks; posted to Main » on 02 Feb 2014 at 8:14 AM (30 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-02-02 10:00:46 AM

clowncar on fire: Notice that were designed for "her pleasure" instead of his?  WTF! Don't we get anything out of this?


The troll in me took over on that one. -grin-
 
2014-02-02 10:00:51 AM

onyxruby: Zasteva: You do realize this is Fark you are posting on, don't you?

I do, once upon a time the radicals were quickly shut down for being asshats and civil discussions about things were much more common. It's too bad that Fark doesn't go back to the no asshat days.


I'm happy to have a civil discussion with you about this.

I enjoyed the article because it shows just the kind of trap someone who thinks of themselves as open-minded can get into, and how important it is to review our own actions and attitudes in the light of what we claim to believe. Often, we find our actions and attitudes are not congruent with our beliefs, and we need to either strive to be better people, or recognize that our beliefs have changed.

What did you think of the article?
 
2014-02-02 10:04:34 AM

hardinparamedic: meep3d: If you are a feminist and you dislike the MRA movement, realise it's a response to the fundamentally sexist nature of your own movement. If feminism was about equality the MRA movement wouldn't be a thing.

You should seek out employment in a dictatorship somewhere. That kind of propaganda writing doesn't come easily. Herr Goebbels would be proud.


I don't get it.

Men are discriminated against when it comes to their children and the law, and now it's becoming apparent they are falling behind in education. Who is fighting on their behalf? It's not the feminists.

You are perfect example of what I am talking about. All I said was that men are discriminated against in certain areas (with proof) and that if feminism will not attempt to redress the balance then a male movement is bound to emerge.  And then you go and compare me to the Nazi's.

What do you suggest be done about family courts and education? And if men cannot address the issue can you tell me when you feminists will step up to the plate?
 
2014-02-02 10:05:59 AM

pxlboy: hardinparamedic: onyxruby: I'm not the least bit misogynistic, even though I'm opposed to radical feminism. I'm about the most mellow person you'll meet in real life.

You have no idea what radical feminism is if you think TFA is it.

Ow, my brain.


Seriously. What the hell?

I read like 4 posts on that blog and I shall never forgive you for that. It's things like this that shake my faith in the essential goodness of people and makes me realize that mental illness is far more prevalent than I like to admit.
 
2014-02-02 10:07:00 AM
Look at eh Violence Against Women Act. Not the Violence against domestic partners, shack ups or violence against people or men act but Women.

Special funding for extra prosecution effort and enhanced penlites for violence against the alleged equal gender of female.

Are you trolling or so you not know that the VAWA protects- specifically- against all genders? In fact, the prologue talks about how men are also victims of sexual abuse, stalking and domestic abuse. There is an entire section of VAWA designed to end prison rape.

Or, maybe your trolling. Can't tell.
 
2014-02-02 10:07:17 AM

hardinparamedic: meep3d: If you are a feminist and you dislike the MRA movement, realise it's a response to the fundamentally sexist nature of your own movement. If feminism was about equality the MRA movement wouldn't be a thing.

You should seek out employment in a dictatorship somewhere. That kind of propaganda writing doesn't come easily. Herr Goebbels would be proud.


Wow, you managed to bring nazi's into a discussion about shoes! You completely ignored the point about equality and why there is a MRA movement. I realize something, you never actually address anything anyone says that disagrees with your worldview. All you do is commit personal attacks.

onyxruby: Wow, you are desperate this morning. I was raised by feminists, two of them. The organize the march and protest in the streets kind. My parents had me study feminism from when I was young. You could say it's something I've studied my entire life.

So either you're full of shiat, or you read at or below a fourth grade level. Which is it? Because it's either ONE or the other with the way you've been ranting in this thread.


I haven't had any rants, your seeing things that weren't written. It's impossible to have a discussion with a radical, and you certainly can't debate anything with someone who's responses consist of pure derp.
 
2014-02-02 10:07:21 AM
feminist  :one who is not happy until their daughters are lesbians.
 
2014-02-02 10:07:51 AM

hardinparamedic: AngryDragon: Yes.  The ready access to abortion and removal of any choice from the fathers has completely eliminated the scourge of single parent homes especially in the urban environments.   That's why the number of single parent homes has doubled since 1970.  Reality doesn't agree with your skewed perspective..

Mm. I was referring more to child support and parental responsibility laws there, but you go right ahead and misrepresent what I say. It's usually par for the course for these conversations.

And the man does have a choice.

[upload.wikimedia.org image 623x623]

Hell. If you're too cheap, you can get them from your local health department for free.

And if you're going to lecture on responsibility, at least see the irony in the fact you're arguing that you should be able to get someone pregnant whenever you want and not take your own responsibility for that.

AngryDragon: But it's the men's fault for spreading their seed and not the women's fault for spreading their legs?  If a woman has the right to choose, she should also have the responsibility of living with her choice 100%, especially if the other partner is unwilling.

Really dude? Your argument boils down to the fact that as a man, you are so enthralled and weakened by vagina that you can't control your basic human instincts to bang the woman at the first chance?

Christ. I can't imagine what it would be like to live with the mentality that getting my dick wet was more important than common sense.


Which is exactly what I'm talking about.

In my first case, I was being responsible.  I was engaged to my girlfriend and planning on getting married, looking forward to our first child.  Which she terminated without any discussion or warning.

In the second case, I was being responsible.  Used a condom and everything.  When she showed up a year later for child support, I had my doubts, but agreed to do the right thing.  I spoke to social services who had no problem ordering an immediate garnishment of my wages since I had been declared the father, but took their sweet time getting the paternity test done.  Of course I wasn't the father.  Funny thing is, she knew it.  She was going from guy to guy that she had slept with at that time, unknown to me, and naming them at random.  That way she could get her government benefits.  The attorney basically told me that recovering any of the money that the state basically stole from me was hopeless.

I lived with the consequences of my actions.  It must be nice to not have to and have it supported with the force of law.
 
2014-02-02 10:12:33 AM

meep3d: Men are discriminated against when it comes to their children and the law, and now it's becoming apparent they are falling behind in education. Who is fighting on their behalf? It's not the feminists.


Yeah, it's not the Orwellian named "Men's Rights Advocates" either.

Here's the thing. MRAs don't care about my rights as a man. They care about their reactionary knee-jerk to the death of traditional society. Like creationist wedge theory, your ilk uses legitimate issues with the legal system and men in family law to weasel in and justify their own beliefs on how women "should be treated".

If you people only cared about the "rights of men", you wouldn't be organizing campaigns of death threats and rape intimidation threats against people who speak about feminist topics that have nothing to do with family law. You wouldn't be white knighting rapists and child/spousal abusers. You wouldn't be filling forums of pathetic whine about how "WOMEN WONT LOOK AT ME WAAH" and trying to justify why it's the "slut"s fault you have to pay child support, but not your fault for not using protection and common sense to begin with.

meep3d: And then you go and compare me to the Nazi's.


No. I compared you to a man who made his livelihood on telling open, bald faced lies. Man up, cupcake, and grow a skin. If you're going to openly lie on a level that is propagandish in nature, expect to be called out on it.

meep3d: Who is fighting on their behalf? It's not the feminists.


As a "victim" of the biased court system - a false rape allegation made by a girlfriend when I was 18 - please do me a favor and don't do me any favors.
 
2014-02-02 10:16:02 AM

AngryDragon: In my first case, I was being responsible.  I was engaged to my girlfriend and planning on getting married, looking forward to our first child.  Which she terminated without any discussion or warning.


So you weren't married. And she just "up and left you" and "terminated without warning"?

Please, tell us the WHOLE story. I have a feeling you're leaving something out to make yourself as the victim here.

AngryDragon: In the second case, I was being responsible.  Used a condom and everything.  When she showed up a year later for child support, I had my doubts, but agreed to do the right thing.  I spoke to social services who had no problem ordering an immediate garnishment of my wages since I had been declared the father, but took their sweet time getting the paternity test done.  Of course I wasn't the father.  Funny thing is, she knew it.  She was going from guy to guy that she had slept with at that time, unknown to me, and naming them at random.  That way she could get her government benefits.  The attorney basically told me that recovering any of the money that the state basically stole from me was hopeless.


So your issue with the state - which is a legitimate issue - justifies treating women like shiat, calling rape victims liars universally, harassing and even threatening to rape, murder, and torture people who disagree with them, and blocking healthcare and legal services to abused and raped women?
 
2014-02-02 10:19:28 AM

AngryDragon: In the second case, I was being responsible. Used a condom and everything. When she showed up a year later for child support, I had my doubts, but agreed to do the right thing. I spoke to social services who had no problem ordering an immediate garnishment of my wages since I had been declared the father, but took their sweet time getting the paternity test done. Of course I wasn't the father. Funny thing is, she knew it. She was going from guy to guy that she had slept with at that time, unknown to me, and naming them at random. That way she could get her government benefits. The attorney basically told me that recovering any of the money that the state basically stole from me was hopeless.


I had a similar thing happen to me, but thankfully I demanded a paternity test before anything went that far. I found out after the fact that the only reason why she engaged in a relationship with me was because I was well off. Basically she targeted me because of my wallet.

This made me feel really bad, I think it's hard for women to really understand that even though it seems like men may hold all the cards in society, we have feelings and do actually want to be loved and valued for something more than just how much money we have, or our social status, or how powerful society perceives us to be.

So, anyway, no lasting harm done to me I suppose, but I do agree that family law is basically sexist. It seems to exist solely on the somewhat out-dated premise that a mans responsibility to a family is to provide income. Certainly, that's how this woman viewed it.

And while I might advocate for more egalitarian ways to solve some of these complex social issues (child support, education, etc) - I have to say that I don't agree with any of the "movements". In principle I favour equality for all, but not by inflicting an injustice on another. I know many people think this is impractical, and perhaps it is - but I would say that ideals are often impractical, but so long as we let them guide our conscience we are charting the right course.
 
2014-02-02 10:21:04 AM
img.fark.net
Princess bubblegum kicks butt
 
2014-02-02 10:21:47 AM

hardinparamedic: meep3d: Men are discriminated against when it comes to their children and the law, and now it's becoming apparent they are falling behind in education. Who is fighting on their behalf? It's not the feminists.

Yeah, it's not the Orwellian named "Men's Rights Advocates" either.

Here's the thing. MRAs don't care about my rights as a man. They care about their reactionary knee-jerk to the death of traditional society. Like creationist wedge theory, your ilk uses legitimate issues with the legal system and men in family law to weasel in and justify their own beliefs on how women "should be treated".

If you people only cared about the "rights of men", you wouldn't be organizing campaigns of death threats and rape intimidation threats against people who speak about feminist topics that have nothing to do with family law. You wouldn't be white knighting rapists and child/spousal abusers. You wouldn't be filling forums of pathetic whine about how "WOMEN WONT LOOK AT ME WAAH" and trying to justify why it's the "slut"s fault you have to pay child support, but not your fault for not using protection and common sense to begin with.

meep3d: And then you go and compare me to the Nazi's.

No. I compared you to a man who made his livelihood on telling open, bald faced lies. Man up, cupcake, and grow a skin. If you're going to openly lie on a level that is propagandish in nature, expect to be called out on it.


Is it absolutely vital that you be quite so rude all the time? I deliberately avoided your style of angry shouty rude word soup to try and get the debate on to points rather than just abuse. So much for that.

I simply said the MRA movement is a response to the inequality and lack of support for men's causes. Sure the movement is bound to have some morons but the fact it exists is because men are not represented by feminists.  So I'll repeat the question:

What do you suggest be done about family courts and education? Men cannot/should not form a group to address these issues and feminists won't. So what is the answer?
 
2014-02-02 10:26:33 AM

meep3d: Is it absolutely vital that you be quite so rude all the time? I deliberately avoided your style of angry shouty rude word soup to try and get the debate on to points rather than just abuse. So much for that.


The "Men's Rights Movement" offends me as a man and a human being. That's why I'm abrasive towards people who tout their superior philosophy to the masses.

meep3d: What do you suggest be done about family courts and education? Men cannot/should not form a group to address these issues and feminists won't. So what is the answer?


Uh, no. Here's the thing, and I said this in my last reply to you, which you ignored because it wasn't nice enough. I'm not going to write out a comprehensive reform plan for you, nor am I going to play into this "something is better than nothing" philosophy where I have to excuse the behavior of the MRA movement because their interests might fall into a line of judicial reform I happen to agree with.
 
2014-02-02 10:27:32 AM
The color pink has been scientifically proven to make people chill the fark out.

http://psychology.about.com/od/sensationandperception/a/color_pink.h tm

HINT HINT.
 
2014-02-02 10:31:24 AM
meep3d and hardinparamedic, you're both actually making a good point (well at least one each, the rest I'm not so sure of).

The MRA movement is full of people who use the issue of "mens rights" as basically a front to express their dismay at the loss of white male privilege. I think it's perfectly sensible for hardinparamedic to call this out and say that they don't represent him, they certainly don't represent me. I'm sort of a nice healthy olive color anyway. Tan maybe.

Also, meep3d - you're right, people of all stripes/sizes/colors/genders have the right to come together to address issues or lobby for laws that they think are fair and just. I certainly have some issues with family court law and I don't think it's bad for organized groups to challenge them. I do think however that we would all be better served if the groups doing the challenging were a bit more respectable and based their advocacy on legal scholarship. After all, if we are going to challenge what is essentially a society gender norm regarding male responsibility in marriage/child rearing, then we have our work cut out for us in a way similar to how early feminists did when they had to challenge issues like discrimination in education and the workplace.

I don't actually find what you guys are saying as mutually exclusive. I think it's easier to agree that there is some need to advocate, or counter balance, the rights of men against the rights of women. It's a tricky balancing act to be sure, particularly when we are taking about challenging established cultural norms. However, I think it's perfectly fine to point out that the groups that are perhaps the most "public" about it, are often the most ill equipped to do anything either (I'll politely add "for various reasons", but my disdain for most of the MRA guys is not something of a closely guarded secret).
 
2014-02-02 10:31:41 AM
Amazingly enough, this thread has turned into a Reddit fedora show.
 
2014-02-02 10:32:25 AM

hardinparamedic: So you weren't married. And she just "up and left you" and "terminated without warning"?

Please, tell us the WHOLE story. I have a feeling you're leaving something out to make yourself as the victim here


Sure.  She freaked at being pregnant and went back to her druggie ex-boyfriend.  I didn't say anything about being a victim, I said it was unjust because I had no input.

hardinparamedic: So your issue with the state - which is a legitimate issue - justifies treating women like shiat, calling rape victims liars universally, harassing and even threatening to rape, murder, and torture people who disagree with them, and blocking healthcare and legal services to abused and raped women?


What psychotic world do you live in?  I gave you a valid example of someone using the system repeatedly and knowingly to defraud as many men as she could while being backed completely by governmental institutions.  Where the hell did you get that I said anything on your list was justified?  And my point was that DESPITE treating innocent men like criminals on nothing more than a woman's say so the problem of single family homes has just gotten WORSE.

So just so I have this right, even one woman being denied the right to choice is a tragedy, but any man being forced to experience a loss or being falsely accused if totally acceptable because of....equality?  That sum it up?
 
2014-02-02 10:33:15 AM

hardinparamedic: Oh good, another strawman RadFem that everyone can use to claim represents the actual philosophy of Feminism and dismiss arguments about civil and wage inequality, impropriety in prosecution of rape and abuse cases, and other bullshiat.


Exactly. "No True Feminist" would do such a thing.
 
2014-02-02 10:33:18 AM

hardinparamedic: AngryDragon: In my first case, I was being responsible.  I was engaged to my girlfriend and planning on getting married, looking forward to our first child.  Which she terminated without any discussion or warning.

So you weren't married. And she just "up and left you" and "terminated without warning"?

Please, tell us the WHOLE story. I have a feeling you're leaving something out to make yourself as the victim here.

AngryDragon: In the second case, I was being responsible.  Used a condom and everything.  When she showed up a year later for child support, I had my doubts, but agreed to do the right thing.  I spoke to social services who had no problem ordering an immediate garnishment of my wages since I had been declared the father, but took their sweet time getting the paternity test done.  Of course I wasn't the father.  Funny thing is, she knew it.  She was going from guy to guy that she had slept with at that time, unknown to me, and naming them at random.  That way she could get her government benefits.  The attorney basically told me that recovering any of the money that the state basically stole from me was hopeless.

So your issue with the state - which is a legitimate issue - justifies treating women like shiat, calling rape victims liars universally, harassing and even threatening to rape, murder, and torture people who disagree with them, and blocking healthcare and legal services to abused and raped women?


I agree with the first answer regarding the up and leaving part.

Also agree about having a legitimate issue with the state.  My brother (and family) has dedicated several years to being a foster parent, taking on some of the hardest cases (infant left in a trailer to burn alive and substance abuse parents).  When it comes to making decisions for what's best for the child's welfare, they always choose the most expedient rather than "what's right" path.  The poster did what he believed to be what's right, by claiming responsibility for which the state would make little effort to overturn this decision by investigating who the real parent was- all in the name of expediency.

I'm not sure how the poster suddenly becomes an advocate of the destruction of women's rights or blocking services to raped women.  Seems a little bit of projection was involved there.
 
2014-02-02 10:33:58 AM

Warlordtrooper: BizarreMan: Talk about a self-hating woman.

So she's okay with her son wearing dresses and pink (if she had one) but her daughter can't.

Feminism might be about a lot of things but true equality is not one of them


hardinparamedic: pxlboy: I've seen posts like that on Tumblr written without a hint of irony.

Tumblr is a wretched hive of sum, villainy, PC ridiculousness, and ACTUAL RadFem.

Hell. Even I make fun of those people, and I'm pretty into feminism and social justice causes.

Snarcoleptic_Hoosier: The only really serious scenario for men's rights activists I can think of involves allegations of sexual contact with children.

That's the thing. There is no serious scenario for MRA. They really don't care about men's rights as a whole - they legitimately refer to any male who does not share their views as "traitors to their gender", akin to the whole "Traitor to their race" thing that is so popular in white supremacy. They just latch on to certain issues of judicial and social reform, such as the area you just mentioned, or false rape allegations, or family court reform issues, and like a parasite or a creationist wedge theory use it to promote their idea that treating women sub-human and like a pig is justified because of X and Y.


Yeah but again you're kinda throwing the baby out with the bathwater. I'm an egalitarian I believe in gender equality for all. I don't believe in feminism in it's modern state because it puts women above men. also pushing a stereotype and political label I do not need.

As a woman who has had to endure a lot of crap from feminists teachers and professors growing up because my dad had the balls to stand up to my mentally ill mom and take care of me. But then later have no support later because of his gender. (circa 1980s) I support the good ones.

There are Men's Right's groups that are not related to that other crap that are lead by some pretty awesome people. But it's the other groups that make it harder for them to make a any headroom.

There has been research shown that most judges are gender bias when it comes to sentencing. Family courts and child support is always given the burden to the man. We have seen it on fark too where the worse mothers of the world get off with a slap on the wrist for the most heinous of crime sprees.

Feminism has become so radical that I don't even recognize it any more. Especially when I see things like "OMG RUBBER DUCKS PATRARCHY!" type stuff on tumblr.
 
2014-02-02 10:35:23 AM

meep3d: angry shouty rude word soup


I'm going to steal that line.

I'm a big fan of reasoned debate, it's not fun when you make a single point and someone equates you as the spokesman for the entire movement.

I'm not a MRA fan in general, because like every other group out there (feminists included) there are too many radicals attempting to speak for everyone.  I only speak for myself, and that way I'm never asked to defend anything other than my own words and thoughts.
 
2014-02-02 10:37:54 AM

meep3d: I simply said the MRA movement is a response to the inequality and lack of support for men's causes


I disagree with this.  As far as I can tell, it is a response to the mere existence of women's rights groups.  And it seems to be a cynical attempt to steer the conversation to "both sides are equally disadvantaged", which is very far from the truth.

Don't get me wrong, there are laws that are biased towards the rights of women (due to historical realities of our society that have only recently begun to change).  But there are far far more examples of laws and cultural attitudes that exist merely to put women "in their place".  Both should change.

And just because someone only fights for rights that effect them personally, doesn't mean they are bad people.  But you should really pick your allies carefully, and the general vibe that MRA groups put out is chauvinistic, sexist, authoritarian, and creepy.
 
GCD
2014-02-02 10:38:37 AM
A little late to the party here, but I used to do MMA...have several actual cage fights under my belt...and I have a pair of pink sparring gloves.

They're actually my wife's, but I wore them for a bit to help break the leather in for her....but honestly, I wouldn't care if they were mine because it really adds to the hilarity factor.

You want to see people's confused reactions to watching a 6'1, 250 lbs. guy like me doing Muay Thai and MMA wearing pink gloves. They look, see the pink gloves, stop, stare, then watch me punch and kick the Thai pads...and you can just see their brain snap in confusion. "I want to laugh, but probably shouldn't."

I wish that I had video of the reactions that I get.
 
2014-02-02 10:38:58 AM
It's funny that the article makes no reference to feminism at any point.  Amusing.  I am amused.  I has an amuse.
 
2014-02-02 10:39:17 AM

baconbeard: Exactly. "No True Feminist" would do such a thing.


You're not as clever as you think. ^_^

AngryDragon: Sure.  She freaked at being pregnant and went back to her druggie ex-boyfriend.  I didn't say anything about being a victim, I said it was unjust because I had no input.


Tragic. I hate to say this in such a cold, callous way, but did you ever think that seeing someone that can help you deal with your anger and grief MIGHT be a little more healthy than trying to white knight a group of people who pride themselves on being as vile as they can to anyone with a vagina?

What she did was her decision. Torturing yourself and, byproxy, other people over it isn't any way to go through life.

AngryDragon: What psychotic world do you live in?  I gave you a valid example of someone using the system repeatedly and knowingly to defraud as many men as she could while being backed completely by governmental institutions.


Which is just as valid and rational an argument as trying to justify spending millions of dollars to drug test every welfare recipient to find that one in a million person who's using crack cocaine on the Government dole.

Because you can create an exception to the rule does not invalidate the general rule. You know this.

AngryDragon: Where the hell did you get that I said anything on your list was justified?


You're white knighting a group that does just that, rather than trying to champion judicial reforms, your ire is directed to the fact that someone doesn't support that group. In fact, I have already told you I AGREE with the need for reforms - and you're still attacking me for the fact I won't support MRAs.

AngryDragon:
So just so I have this right, even one woman being denied the right to choice is a tragedy, but any man being forced to experience a loss or being falsely accused if totally acceptable because of....equality?  That sum it up?

You do not have the right to affect the self-determination of others when it comes to their health and their continued life and liberty. THAT sums it up. You do not get to force women to be unwilling flesh incubators for your spawn. Sorry.
 
2014-02-02 10:39:54 AM

lanabanabutt: Wow, that article was a really long winded way of explaining "author is from the San Francisco Bay Area.


fark you.
 
2014-02-02 10:41:59 AM
meep3d: Men are discriminated against when it comes to their children and the law, and now it's becoming apparent they are falling behind in education. Who is fighting on their behalf? It's not the feminists.

I'm afraid I simply don't agree with the premise that men are discriminated against when it comes to children and the law.

I have female friends who had to fight tooth and nail to get even occasional visitation with their children because their husbands decided to make false claims about them being unfaithful. Even if it were true, it has nothing to do with their ability to raise their children. These were cases of the husbands striking back because they wives wanted a divorce, pure and simple, and the courts went along with it.

I have another friend who recently asked me if I could give her a place to stay for a few days since she needed to get away from her husband who was starting to become physically abusive. After talking to the attorney she had drawing up divorce papers she said actually she needed to look for some other place, because staying at a man's house could prejudice the case against her.

Another woman I know was ordered by the divorce judge to stay in the tiny Georgia town they lived in until her infant daughter was 18, to protect the visitation rights of the abusive husband she was divorcing.

In many cases a woman who is staying home raising the kids has no resources to mount a proper legal defense if the husband decides to involve attorneys.

On the topic of men falling behind in education, it appears to be primarily be men's choice to pursue other things than education (of course there are individual exceptions)

http://collegestats.org/articles/2013/05/why-men-are-falling-behind- in -higher-ed/

In particular, the question is why men don't see as much value in a college education as women do? I suspect that if you polled people about their attitudes toward college, you would find that more women see college as their main opportunity to make something better of themselves than men do. This is because men recognize, if only subconsciously, that they have a lot of things in their favor just because they are men; whereas women recognize that they have more adversity to overcome and they need the benefits of higher education to compete.

What do you suggest be done about family courts and education? And if men cannot address the issue can you tell me when you feminists will step up to the plate?


For family courts, I'm not sure there is a problem to solve. The courts vary widely in who they favor based on individual circumstances and the particular viewpoint of the judge. If you want to protect your rights, the best bet is to have an amenable divorce and keep the lawyers completely out of it.

For education, reducing the cost seems to be the best way to get more men to enroll in college.
 
2014-02-02 10:42:02 AM
When my daughter wanted sparkly shoes, I had to confront my own fierce prejudice against princess culture

Stopped reading there...
 
2014-02-02 10:42:06 AM

clowncar on fire: I'm not sure how the poster suddenly becomes an advocate of the destruction of women's rights or blocking services to raped women.  Seems a little bit of projection was involved there.


I would highly encourage you to read up on the MRA movement.

My problem is not with people who demand judicial reform and fair treatment of men in family court or rape cases. My issue is people who white knight the MRA movement for being involved in this, while ignoring the downright evil things the people they represent do in addition to this.
 
2014-02-02 10:44:16 AM

Brittabot: I'm pregnant with my 2nd child at the moment, first daughter, and I've been thinking a lot about the whole princess thing.

I farking HATE "princess culture", always have, even when I was a kid, and I absolutely will not encourage it with my little girl when she is very young. However, once she reaches an age where she's more influenced by her peers, if she wants to watch princess movies and play with princess things I won't forbid it and won't make her feel bad for liking these things (while still encouraging her to have other interests, of course).

I'll probably try to steer her more towards the more competent princesses though. Like Princess Bubblegum from Adventure Time. She smart, gets shiat done and doesn't take crap from anyone. If more princesses were written like her I'd have a lot fewer issues with the whole genre.

And man, pink is almost impossible to avoid! I'm aiming for a less than 25% concentration for her wardrobe at the moment but I'm not sure how I'll fare.


Princess Bubblegum is the villain of that show. She cuts her own subjects apart for experimentation and creates an sphinx / abomination that tries to wipe out free will.
 
2014-02-02 10:44:35 AM

AngryDragon: Sure.  She freaked at being pregnant and went back to her druggie ex-boyfriend.  I didn't say anything about being a victim, I said it was unjust because I had no input.


I came off as harsh when I replied to that comment above, but I mean that in all seriousness.

You can't save everyone, and what she did was not your fault. People do hurtful, stupid things even despite our best efforts otherwise. Seriously, I mean this with all care in the world, SERIOUSLY if this is the way you feel, please see someone on a professional level.
 
2014-02-02 10:46:11 AM

Meatybrain: lanabanabutt: Wow, that article was a really long winded way of explaining "author is from the San Francisco Bay Area.

fark you.


More like "Author is a liberal arts educated stay at home mommy".

"Educational Consulting".  Puh-lease.
 
2014-02-02 10:47:45 AM

TwistedFark: meep3d and hardinparamedic, you're both actually making a good point (well at least one each, the rest I'm not so sure of).

The MRA movement is full of people who use the issue of "mens rights" as basically a front to express their dismay at the loss of white male privilege. I think it's perfectly sensible for hardinparamedic to call this out and say that they don't represent him, they certainly don't represent me. I'm sort of a nice healthy olive color anyway. Tan maybe.

Also, meep3d - you're right, people of all stripes/sizes/colors/genders have the right to come together to address issues or lobby for laws that they think are fair and just. I certainly have some issues with family court law and I don't think it's bad for organized groups to challenge them. I do think however that we would all be better served if the groups doing the challenging were a bit more respectable and based their advocacy on legal scholarship. After all, if we are going to challenge what is essentially a society gender norm regarding male responsibility in marriage/child rearing, then we have our work cut out for us in a way similar to how early feminists did when they had to challenge issues like discrimination in education and the workplace.

I don't actually find what you guys are saying as mutually exclusive. I think it's easier to agree that there is some need to advocate, or counter balance, the rights of men against the rights of women. It's a tricky balancing act to be sure, particularly when we are taking about challenging established cultural norms. However, I think it's perfectly fine to point out that the groups that are perhaps the most "public" about it, are often the most ill equipped to do anything either (I'll politely add "for various reasons", but my disdain for most of the MRA guys is not something of a closely guarded secret).


This is very well said!

I hope your attempts to be a peacemaker succeed.
 
2014-02-02 10:48:49 AM
She's just a kid. At that age, she wants to fit in. Don't confuse your politics with her running around the school playground.
 
2014-02-02 10:51:00 AM

God Is My Co-Pirate: 1. They're just shoes.
2. You don't have to buy them.

Signed,
- a feminist


Upper middle class grrl problems.

Let me modify that for you as a parent:

Oh, FFS you hyperventilating, problem seeking, everything must support grrl power, mad cow: you're just proving what every man thinks about feminism is true. They're just tennis shoes, she isn't asking for five inch platform heels. She's a kid, they're glittery, and they blink, I know because I bought a pair for my niece with my wife this Xmas. Heck boys choose glittery, blinky, shoes too, does it really matter if they're blue?

Now STFU and don't shave while complaining about the patriarchy instead of doing something useful, like work at improving or actually educating yourself and your children about real evils in the world. You know, like people starving and freezing.
 
2014-02-02 10:52:08 AM

hardinparamedic: clowncar on fire: I'm not sure how the poster suddenly becomes an advocate of the destruction of women's rights or blocking services to raped women.  Seems a little bit of projection was involved there.

I would highly encourage you to read up on the MRA movement.

My problem is not with people who demand judicial reform and fair treatment of men in family court or rape cases. My issue is people who white knight the MRA movement for being involved in this, while ignoring the downright evil things the people they represent do in addition to this.


You're generalizing.  All people who generalize like bunnies and Hitler.

The MRA is not Borg.  Feminists are not Borg.
 
2014-02-02 10:54:03 AM

Slightly Darker Black Manjushri: Brittabot: I'm pregnant with my 2nd child at the moment, first daughter, and I've been thinking a lot about the whole princess thing.

I farking HATE "princess culture", always have, even when I was a kid, and I absolutely will not encourage it with my little girl when she is very young. However, once she reaches an age where she's more influenced by her peers, if she wants to watch princess movies and play with princess things I won't forbid it and won't make her feel bad for liking these things (while still encouraging her to have other interests, of course).

I'll probably try to steer her more towards the more competent princesses though. Like Princess Bubblegum from Adventure Time. She smart, gets shiat done and doesn't take crap from anyone. If more princesses were written like her I'd have a lot fewer issues with the whole genre.

And man, pink is almost impossible to avoid! I'm aiming for a less than 25% concentration for her wardrobe at the moment but I'm not sure how I'll fare.

Princess Bubblegum is the villain of that show. She cuts her own subjects apart for experimentation and creates an sphinx / abomination that tries to wipe out free will.


Yes, but apparently Disney Princesses will turn little girls into submissive, mal-adjusted, insecure adults.
 
2014-02-02 10:57:49 AM

hardinparamedic: baconbeard: Exactly. "No True Feminist" would do such a thing.

You're not as clever as you think. ^_^

AngryDragon: Sure.  She freaked at being pregnant and went back to her druggie ex-boyfriend.  I didn't say anything about being a victim, I said it was unjust because I had no input.

Tragic. I hate to say this in such a cold, callous way, but did you ever think that seeing someone that can help you deal with your anger and grief MIGHT be a little more healthy than trying to white knight a group of people who pride themselves on being as vile as they can to anyone with a vagina?

What she did was her decision. Torturing yourself and, byproxy, other people over it isn't any way to go through life.

AngryDragon: What psychotic world do you live in?  I gave you a valid example of someone using the system repeatedly and knowingly to defraud as many men as she could while being backed completely by governmental institutions.

Which is just as valid and rational an argument as trying to justify spending millions of dollars to drug test every welfare recipient to find that one in a million person who's using crack cocaine on the Government dole.

Because you can create an exception to the rule does not invalidate the general rule. You know this.

AngryDragon: Where the hell did you get that I said anything on your list was justified?

You're white knighting a group that does just that, rather than trying to champion judicial reforms, your ire is directed to the fact that someone doesn't support that group. In fact, I have already told you I AGREE with the need for reforms - and you're still attacking me for the fact I won't support MRAs.

AngryDragon: So just so I have this right, even one woman being denied the right to choice is a tragedy, but any man being forced to experience a loss or being falsely accused if totally acceptable because of....equality?  That sum it up?

You do not have the right to affect the self-determination of others when it comes to their health ...


Jesus.  What the fark are you talking about?  Who the fark am I "white-knighting"?  You are the one attacking me.  I'm giving you perfectly valid experiences of why the laws are unjust in a very narrow range of circumstances and you have me supporting rapists, drug-testing of welfare recipients, and treating women as "spawn incubators.

What the fark is wrong with you?

Oh, and as far as you telling me to basically get over it because my future wife had an abortion without telling me?  I came to terms with it long ago.  Screw you though.  That is no different from some conservative asshole saying that you have to carry to term because you got raped and you'll get over it.
 
2014-02-02 11:00:17 AM

Zasteva: I'm happy to have a civil discussion with you about this.

I enjoyed the article because it shows just the kind of trap someone who thinks of themselves as open-minded can get into, and how important it is to review our own actions and attitudes in the light of what we claim to believe. Often, we find our actions and attitudes are not congruent with our beliefs, and we need to either strive to be better people, or recognize that our beliefs have changed.

What did you think of the article?


Love to. In some ways I agree with the author of the piece. I'm firmly opposed to princess culture because I think it's harmful to girls and ultimately sets unrealistic life expectations. The author seems to be concerned primarily about the beauty implications, failing to realize that is she is a good parent her girls will be capable of being more than capable of handling life. Personally I think the real harm isn't the 'pretty' aspect as much as the princess aspect that can lead to adjustment issues later on in life.

It ties into helicopter parenting and refusing to let a kid just be a kid. Kids need to be allowed to succeed and fail so that they can become properly adjusted for adult life. I worked at a University for a few years and saw any number of young people come in and have significant adjustment issues.

Then again I'm the guy that just bought my princess obsessed 6 year old niece a remote control monster truck for Christmas. She loves that monster truck by the way.
 
2014-02-02 11:00:46 AM

inglixthemad: Let me modify that for you as a parent:

Oh, FFS you hyperventilating, problem seeking, everything must support grrl power, mad cow: you're just proving what every man thinks about feminism is true. They're just tennis shoes, she isn't asking for five inch platform heels. She's a kid, they're glittery, and they blink, I know because I bought a pair for my niece with my wife this Xmas. Heck boys choose glittery, blinky, shoes too, does it really matter if they're blue?


You know, she pretty much came to the same conclusion herself at the end of the article.

Now STFU and don't shave while complaining about the patriarchy instead of doing something useful, like work at improving or actually educating yourself and your children about real evils in the world. You know, like people starving and freezing.

If you are trying to convince us that feminism is extreme, let me clue you in. Telling a woman who is thoughtfully wrestling with gender role issues for her daughters to STFU, or calling her a hyperventilating, problem seeking mad cow has exactly the opposite effect.

/especially if you are hyperventilating yourself when you say it
 
2014-02-02 11:01:45 AM

AngryDragon: hardinparamedic:

Oh, and as far as you telling me to basically get over it because my future wife had an abortion without telling me?  <SNIP>  That is no different from some conservative asshole saying that you have to carry to term because you got raped and you'll get over it.


That's a reasonable point, actually.
 
2014-02-02 11:02:12 AM

AngryDragon: Oh, and as far as you telling me to basically get over it because my future wife had an abortion without telling me?  I came to terms with it long ago.  Screw you though.   That is no different from some conservative asshole saying that you have to carry to term because you got raped and you'll get over it.


Clearly not,

And yeah. It's EXACTLY like that. It's EXACTLY like forcing a woman to endager her life and livelyhood to carry her rapist's baby, where it will remain a CONSTANT reminder of her victimization and - as an added bonus - can be sued for custody of in 34 states.

EXACTLY like that.

www.garyasanchez.com
 
2014-02-02 11:04:16 AM

AngryDragon: What the fark is wrong with you?


You really shouldn't have brought this up.

You should have NEVER brought this up if you didn't expect it to be deconstructed in this conversation.
 
2014-02-02 11:07:14 AM

hardinparamedic: AngryDragon: What the fark is wrong with you?

You really shouldn't have brought this up.

You should have NEVER brought this up if you didn't expect it to be deconstructed in this conversation.


But the thing is, you're not deconstructing anything. You're painting strawmen all around this guy and then using that to be condescending.

Why are you doing this? What sort of benefit are you getting out of it?
 
2014-02-02 11:10:02 AM

TwistedFark: hardinparamedic: AngryDragon: What the fark is wrong with you?

You really shouldn't have brought this up.

You should have NEVER brought this up if you didn't expect it to be deconstructed in this conversation.

But the thing is, you're not deconstructing anything. You're painting strawmen all around this guy and then using that to be condescending.

Why are you doing this? What sort of benefit are you getting out of it?


Welcome to FARK. Some people thrive on that sort of thing around here.
 
2014-02-02 11:10:48 AM
This is almost as bad as the other mom who wouldn't let her 11-year-old son use Axe body wash and wanted him to go back to his Spongebob wash instead.
 
2014-02-02 11:11:26 AM

TwistedFark: But the thing is, you're not deconstructing anything. You're painting strawmen all around this guy and then using that to be condescending.

Why are you doing this? What sort of benefit are you getting out of it?


I'm actually not. He's using the fact that his girlfriend got an abortion without his permission to do so as a reason to try to justify forcing women to carry a fetus against their will to term, OR forcing them to sign away their right to seek remediation and child support because someone was gaming the system and he happened to be the unfortunate victim of that, ignoring the fact that he is the exception rather than the rule of the deadbeat dad evading the system.

The fact he actually compared what happened to him with the plight of a rape victim being blamed for her rape and forced to cary his rapist's offspring as being exactly similar demonstrates how separate from reality that belief is.

And I'm getting a paycheck from Big Feminism. Seriously?
 
2014-02-02 11:12:50 AM
Lighten  up lady. A woman who is a friend of mine is a very progressive feminist. Her daughter is the girliest girl you will ever meet. The mom never had a cow about it and the daughter is in college now studying science. Get a grip lady!i
 
2014-02-02 11:13:21 AM
In every one of those cases, the men who were ordered to pay child support had their names willingly placed on the birth certificate as the legal father of that child. You seem to leave that fact out.

Unless the man is the biological father (excluding cases where the man is raped)  or he went through an official adoption agency, there is no legitimate reason why he should be on the hook to support a kid.  Placing his name on a piece of paper does not make the kids DNA change so it's his biological kid.
 
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