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(Slate)   Don't just assume she's guilty. We all know the Italian Justice system is insane   (slate.com) divider line 48
    More: Asinine, Amanda Knox, Italian Justice, Italians, country legal systems, Perugia, Italian Court, African immigrants, miscarriage of justice  
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11216 clicks; posted to Main » on 01 Feb 2014 at 3:28 PM (28 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-02-01 10:27:14 AM
8 votes:

Doktor_Zhivago: If a US appeals court declares you get a new trial during your appeals process you get a new trial. There's not really a difference here.


Yes. *You* can appeal your guilty verdict. *The Government* cannot appeal your innocent verdict.
2014-02-01 03:43:54 PM
7 votes:
I stayed away from this story for years because it looked like tabloid crap.  Finally did some reading about the details and holy crap, how could anyone conclude she and her boyfriend had anything to do with it?  This wouldn't even be brought before a grand jury in the US.  There's simply no evidence, just fantasy and prosecutorial misconduct.

And yet news accounts are still written with horribly misleading bits like "she said she was at the apartment covering her ears so she wouldn't hear the screams".  Basically they interrogated her Frank Pembleton style and got her to "imagine" how it might have gone down with her there.
2014-02-01 05:02:34 PM
6 votes:

Oblio13: Knox is probably innocent. She also tried to throw that bartender under the bus to save herself. So I have difficulty mustering sympathy for her.


I don't have a problem being sympathetic. It's not like she just waltzed in and decided to say "Hey, it was him!" for fun. She was being screamed at and interrogated about the message she'd texted to the bar owner, the police were insisting that he must be involved, until she finally repeated their story back to them. Later, of course, it turned out there were a bunch of witnesses to his being somewhere else and it became Knox's fault that she let herself be bullied into repeating the police's story. (Admittedly, this is Knox's version -- but having been slapped around by European police myself when they decided that I was "lying" about what I was doing and were going to scream and hit the "truth" out of me, I believe it. Furthermore, the interview was mysteriously not taped, although their own rules said it should have been).

This is one of the many things that drives me nuts about the Knox case -- the "she framed the bar owner", or, to make it extra bad, "she tried to frame a black guy for it." Here's the thing. If Knox is innocent, and she decided totally of her own volition to frame the bar owner, that would be a scummy thing to do. HOWEVER, she has already served several years in jail, three of which were for her "calumny" of the guy. She's paid for it. If, however, she was guilty and wanted to do a Susan Smith and throw the blame on a black guy -- why in the name of heaven would she not tell them about the actual black guy, Rudy Guede, who was there and whose DNA was flooding the place and was also inside Meredith's body? Why would she feel such a strong need to protect this guy she barely knew that she would never so much as mention his name? The answer isn't hard to figure out -- she wasn't there, and she didn't know.

/apologies for the rant, but I keep seeing this "she tried to frame someone" thing and it's so divorced from the context that it becomes meaningless.
2014-02-01 03:40:04 PM
6 votes:

mrlewish: A good argument.. except for the dead body.... and the fact that the skank did it.


You mean the dead body that another man was convicted of killing? And that no evidence actually points to Knox having done it?
2014-02-01 03:50:59 PM
5 votes:

Kit Fister: Didn't an italian guy already confess and cop a plea and go to jail for this? Doesn't that sort of prove that Amanda Knox is being tried simply because "fark the american"?


There was an Italian guy caught and confessed to it already.

 He changed his story to one of conspiracy that implicated Amanda Knox as his partner in crime when they offered him a reduced sentence in exchange for such testimony.
2014-02-01 04:02:25 PM
4 votes:
2014-02-01 03:53:00 PM
4 votes:
Amanda Knox is only guilty of being an American. They let gangsters who murder toddlers run amok, but try to frame US college students. A picture of Italy should be next to the word corruption in the dictionary.
2014-02-01 01:55:50 PM
4 votes:
Giuliano Mignini had previously prosecuted the "Monster of Florence" serial killer case and became convinced that it was a masonic conspiracy. His case came to nothing. Mignini was later convicted of illegally tapping the phones of various police and reporters connected to the Florence case, and was given a 16-month suspended sentence.

Oh, he didn't prosecute the Mostro case*, he was investigating the drowning of a doctor in Lake Trasimene which occurred in the 80s. He linked the case to the Florence murders because he believed a Satanic cult was involved. He had reporter Mario Spezi arrested for being a part of this Satanic cult, because, among other things, Spezi owned this:
www.florencewebguide.com
A Satanic object. Or a traditional Tuscan doorstop. Same thing. A similar stone was found at one of the Monster's crime scenes.

Mignini sees Satan in everything.

*He might as well have done it. The man who was tried for the Monster's crimes was an 80-something year old man with a heart condition, who they alleged managed to sprint after the last male victim, a runner.
vpb [TotalFark]
2014-02-01 11:22:12 AM
4 votes:
The problem is that there was no evidence.  The prosecution even had a totally new theory of what happened.  This case sounds like something out of Texas.
2014-02-01 04:35:20 PM
3 votes:
So, here's what I learnt from the Amanda Knox trail.

Hot white girl gets screwed by a corrupt justice system. Endless media panic.

Millions of mainly poor, mainly non-white men languish in US prisons, screwed by a corrupt justice system. *crickets*
2014-02-01 03:49:09 PM
3 votes:
Didn't an italian guy already confess and cop a plea and go to jail for this? Doesn't that sort of prove that Amanda Knox is being tried simply because "fark the american"?
2014-02-01 03:47:59 PM
3 votes:
Amanda Knox and her boyfriend are extremely good suspects in the murder case.  They may have actually even done it.  That said, there is a big gulf between reasonable suspicion, which the Italians do have in this case, and actual damning evidence that shows she is guilty, which they seem to be missing.

From our own ethics, on this side of the pond, there exist things like, reasonable doubt, double jeopardy, and prosecution ethics, that do not seem to be universal in regards to the Italian system.  If she actually did play a hand in her room mates death, than I wish to hell that the Italians could have done a better job establishing that guilt.  If she truly innocent, then I wish they would leave her in peace.
vpb [TotalFark]
2014-02-01 12:31:21 PM
3 votes:
namatad:

farkIT, I am becoming a lawyer so I will be safe talking to people.

You know what they say about lawyers who are their own client.
2014-02-01 10:11:49 AM
3 votes:
no, the Italian justice system is hopelessly corrupt. There's a difference.
2014-02-01 05:04:37 PM
2 votes:
Hat tip to Giant Clown Shoe /strong> who posted this in the other thread.

Better reasons why she's not guilty: http://www.injusticeinperugia.org/FBI2.html
2014-02-01 04:45:27 PM
2 votes:
All you gots to do is take a nice drive out in the beautiful Tuscan hills amidst the rolling green lush meadows, hand crafted artisan cheeses and wines and dodge all the Eastern European prostitutes lining the roadsides .. out in the beautiful Tuscan hills, nearly literally throwing their wares at you and  understand some twisted old f*ck of an Italian is beating them regularly for not bringing back enough Lira every day. Those Eastern European girls didn't just magically appear  right there. Someone forced them there. Someone protects the investment. And some decrepit Italian f*ck is cosy with the right highly placed Italian old f*ck magistrates to avoid having his whore-business ruined.

Beautiful breath taking country.

Lined with hookers. And the Italian 'Just-Us' system of corrupt magistrates look the other way for that, but let's toss away the key for Amanda Knox?

Uh-huh
2014-02-01 04:41:38 PM
2 votes:

Bacontastesgood: I stayed away from this story for years because it looked like tabloid crap.  Finally did some reading about the details and holy crap, how could anyone conclude she and her boyfriend had anything to do with it?  This wouldn't even be brought before a grand jury in the US.  There's simply no evidence, just fantasy and prosecutorial misconduct.

And yet news accounts are still written with horribly misleading bits like "she said she was at the apartment covering her ears so she wouldn't hear the screams".  Basically they interrogated her Frank Pembleton style and got her to "imagine" how it might have gone down with her there.


The guy who actually killed the roommate has been caught and convicted and is serving his (ridiculously light) sentence for it, but because Knox and her boyfriend kissed in public and she didn't appear in black with a cloud of depression over her head the Italian media went insane. That the prosecutor himself is actually insane didn't help any.

Amanda Knox and her boyfriend had exactly *zero* to do with the crime, and she simply needs to never step foot out of America again. The boyfriend, as an Italian citizen, is farked.
2014-02-01 04:29:50 PM
2 votes:
People.  Slate Magazine is writing an article that basically agrees with the U-S-A U-S-A crowd.  If that doesn't convince you how bad their case is, I don't know what will.
2014-02-01 03:57:43 PM
2 votes:

incendi: Wasn't it an Italian court that convicted some scientists for not predicting an earthquake, or something silly along those lines?


http://articles.latimes.com/2013/sep/28/science/la-sci-sn-italy-eart hq uake-forecast-prison-20130926
2014-02-01 03:55:21 PM
2 votes:

Kiwimann: Kit Fister: Didn't an italian guy already confess and cop a plea and go to jail for this? Doesn't that sort of prove that Amanda Knox is being tried simply because "fark the american"?

There was an Italian guy caught and confessed to it already.

 He changed his story to one of conspiracy that implicated Amanda Knox as his partner in crime when they offered him a reduced sentence in exchange for such testimony.


Ah, I see. "well give you a reduced sentence if you agree to implicate the american."
2014-02-01 03:55:00 PM
2 votes:

Kit Fister: Didn't an italian guy already confess and cop a plea and go to jail for this? Doesn't that sort of prove that Amanda Knox is being tried simply because "fark the american"?


There was a man linked by DNA to the case: Rudy Guede (not Italian though, Ivoirian raised in Perugia).
2014-02-01 03:48:56 PM
2 votes:

Bacontastesgood: I stayed away from this story for years because it looked like tabloid crap.  Finally did some reading about the details and holy crap, how could anyone conclude she and her boyfriend had anything to do with it?  This wouldn't even be brought before a grand jury in the US.  There's simply no evidence, just fantasy and prosecutorial misconduct.

And yet news accounts are still written with horribly misleading bits like "she said she was at the apartment covering her ears so she wouldn't hear the screams".  Basically they interrogated her Frank Pembleton style and got her to "imagine" how it might have gone down with her there.


Pretty much this.  Hers is easily one of the top 10 cases of prosecutorial & judicial misconduct I've seen.
2014-02-01 03:42:27 PM
2 votes:
american justice is the best in the world and all other jurisdictions are evil and or corrupt, especially of they convict pretty white american girls

/coughGitmocough
2014-02-01 03:40:40 PM
2 votes:
If you want to amuse yourself, or perhaps be concerned, check out the comments regarding this on British tabloids.  America is basically a land of violent criminals who are also rich and arrogant and you can never trust them to tell the truth and they think they run the whole planet and no real Brit would ever visit such a horrible place.  It gives you a window into why no amount of evidence (or lack thereof) will change the mind of some people.  Someone has to pay for the death of one of their own, and if you're convinced about the way "those people" are it's pretty easy to assume she did it.

/not accusing every British person of being like this
2014-02-01 03:35:46 PM
2 votes:
Knox's warden said that she didn't show remorse. Called her an Ice Maiden.  Do innocent people show remorse? And maybe the reason she didn't fall apart in jail is that she had hope that she would be found innocent.

I wonder how many innocents Knox's warden thinks are in her jail.

Zero?

Because justice is perfect, right?

Right.
2014-02-01 03:35:11 PM
2 votes:
A good argument.. except for the dead body.... and the fact that the skank did it.
2014-02-01 03:18:38 PM
2 votes:
Wasn't it an Italian court that convicted some scientists for not predicting an earthquake, or something silly along those lines?
2014-02-01 02:05:55 PM
2 votes:
People who mistakenly think the US system is better are fools.

Personally I expected this, but that means nothing. The problem is not that Italy's system is corrupt. It's that there isn't really a less corrupt system.
2014-02-01 12:13:12 PM
2 votes:
If at first you don't get the verdict you want, keep trying until you do get the verdict you want

/f*cking ridiculous
2014-02-02 07:29:46 AM
1 votes:
I wish more of the news stories talked about Knox's timeline in Italy.  The prosecutions theory of what happened becomes even more insane once you realize how short of time Knox had actually been in Italy, how short of time her and Sollecito had been dating, and how little of a connection she had to Guede.

1. Knox went to Italy in September.  The murder happened lass than two months later on November 1st.
2. Knox and Sollecito started dating in October.  By some accounts they had only been together about one week when the murder happened.
3. Knox had no friendship or established communication with Guede.  She was introduced to Guede when he came to her flat to visit the two male roommates that lived with her and Kercher, but there's no evidence that she knew anything about Guede beyond such an introduction.

For the prosecution's theories too be true, you'd have to assume that Knox, who had only been in Italy for two months, and didn't speak good Italian at all, somehow convinced a boyfriend of one week, and a near total stranger, to join with her in murdering a roommate that she had only known for less than two months.  Complete nonsense.
2014-02-01 10:40:49 PM
1 votes:

o'really: OgreMagi: Threaten to close a few military bases in Italy. The local economies where they are located would collapse.

/I'm all for closing those bases without even considering the Knox case

Just Italy, or overseas bases in particular?

/Italy is a coveted assignment, despite the mafia polluted groundwater...


I want us to close most military bases around the world and that we stop being the world's police.   Europe had money to spend on their social programs because they didn't need a military because of our presence.  In other words, we paid for their stuff.  It's time they handled their own security because we are broke.  And the next time some asshole with a funny hat invades a country and they beg us for help, the first thing we should say is "what's in it for us?"

A few countries realize the value of our bases, and not just from a security standpoint.  Poland begged us to put a base in their country.  They knew how much of a boost to the local economy it would generate.  I think they charged us a dollar for the lease (not sure about that, though).
2014-02-01 08:22:13 PM
1 votes:
The truly scary thing is that this is the kind of thing that happens to poor people and minorities in the US, but not to white people. The fact that Italy's justice system is equal-opportunity unfair rather than just anti-minority and anti-poor unfair is rather startling to me as a middle-class white American. Remind me to stay away from Italy.
2014-02-01 07:09:13 PM
1 votes:

a21ozcoldcup: Doesn't matter, she is still super hot.


I don't get the attraction. Don't get me wrong she's not hideous, but there's something "off" about her face that I can't pin down.
2014-02-01 06:26:01 PM
1 votes:

worlddan: Spiralmonkey:

You're not in a minority. What tabloids print and what people really think are usually poles apart. I've not heard anyone say they think she's guilty,

I think she's guilty.


You're an idiot
2014-02-01 06:20:19 PM
1 votes:
Spiralmonkey:

You're not in a minority. What tabloids print and what people really think are usually poles apart. I've not heard anyone say they think she's guilty,

I think she's guilty.
2014-02-01 05:53:31 PM
1 votes:
JSTACAT: -At times like this- one could wish for a truth serum interview, or a good lie detector series.
Many people have said she looks/acts guilty.... in subsequent interviews on tv.
Why doesn't she volunteer for lie detector & settle this??


1) They don't say she looks guilty, they say she shows no remorse. It's kinda hard to be remorseful for something you didn't do.
2) Polygraph tests aren't very effective. They wouldn't change anyone's opinion on the matter either. George Zimmerman passed two polygraph tests about Trayvon Martin, swaying precisely zero people.
3) None of this is necessary. No evidence points to her.
2014-02-01 05:47:45 PM
1 votes:
Threaten to close a few military bases in Italy. The local economies where they are located would collapse.

/I'm all for closing those bases without even considering the Knox case
2014-02-01 04:40:50 PM
1 votes:

uncoveror: Amanda Knox is only guilty of being an American. They let gangsters who murder toddlers run amok, but try to frame US college students. A picture of Italy should be next to the word corruption in the dictionary.


Poor Raffaele Sollecito. Not only does he not have a foreign country to hide in, he doesn't even make it into the narrative.
2014-02-01 04:38:39 PM
1 votes:
i.dailymail.co.uk
Ummm... OK, not guilty
2014-02-01 04:26:18 PM
1 votes:

rico567: you think the U.S. media is batstink crazy, check out the Italian papers sometime. We returned from a month in Campania a few weeks ago, and so far, this place appears normal to me.


Italy is the Florida of Europe.
2014-02-01 04:16:57 PM
1 votes:

OtherLittleGuy: Gecko Gingrich: Doktor_Zhivago: If a US appeals court declares you get a new trial during your appeals process you get a new trial. There's not really a difference here.

Yes. *You* can appeal your guilty verdict. *The Government* cannot appeal your innocent verdict.

But the family of the victim can sue in civil court, and if the State doesn't get a conviction, the Feds can try the case (and vice versa).


Negative. They can try on different charges, but not the same one.
2014-02-01 04:16:39 PM
1 votes:

Slaxl: Rapmaster2000: If you want to amuse yourself, or perhaps be concerned, check out the comments regarding this on British tabloids.  America is basically a land of violent criminals who are also rich and arrogant and you can never trust them to tell the truth and they think they run the whole planet and no real Brit would ever visit such a horrible place.  It gives you a window into why no amount of evidence (or lack thereof) will change the mind of some people.  Someone has to pay for the death of one of their own, and if you're convinced about the way "those people" are it's pretty easy to assume she did it.

/not accusing every British person of being like this

Nonsense, I've never seen or heard anything like that, except in Youtube comments. While I don't read tabloids, and I suggest you stop, I don't know a single person who thinks Knox did it, and pretty much everyone is supportive of her and thinks the Italian system is wrong.

It would sadden me if I was in the minority.


You're not in a minority. What tabloids print and what people really think are usually poles apart. I've not heard anyone say they think she's guilty, but an awful lot who think the Italian justice system needs a boot up the arse.
2014-02-01 04:05:39 PM
1 votes:

Kiwimann: Kit Fister: Didn't an italian guy already confess and cop a plea and go to jail for this? Doesn't that sort of prove that Amanda Knox is being tried simply because "fark the american"?

There was an Italian guy caught and confessed to it already.

 He changed his story to one of conspiracy that implicated Amanda Knox as his partner in crime when they offered him a reduced sentence in exchange for such testimony.


Yes, the basics of the case are the murderer was caught a few days after the murder, and justice was done. Then crazy prosecutor gets involved in another case, sees satanists everywhere as he regularly does and the murderers sentence is reduced in order for lots of newspapers to sell lots of copies based on his insane ravings.
2014-02-01 03:56:50 PM
1 votes:

Some Coke Drinking Guy: Amanda Knox and her boyfriend are extremely good suspects in the murder case.  They may have actually even done it.  That said, there is a big gulf between reasonable suspicion, which the Italians do have in this case, and actual damning evidence that shows she is guilty, which they seem to be missing.

From our own ethics, on this side of the pond, there exist things like, reasonable doubt, double jeopardy, and prosecution ethics, that do not seem to be universal in regards to the Italian system.  If she actually did play a hand in her room mates death, than I wish to hell that the Italians could have done a better job establishing that guilt.  If she truly innocent, then I wish they would leave her in peace.



They may have had reasonable suspicion initially but that suspicion is no longer valid as no physical evidence against them exists.
2014-02-01 03:51:20 PM
1 votes:
She is totally guilty.
2014-02-01 03:49:39 PM
1 votes:
"This, of course, would never happen in a U.S. court, where the Constitution forbids suspects from being repeatedly retried."


Well this is clearly a well researched article...

/it's the same trial, she was previously found "Guilty: Pending appeal" and "Acquitted: Pending appeal. She's currently "Guilty: pending appeal".
//it has multiple levels of appeal... it's the same trial.
///there's one layer of appeal left. She still hasn't been declared guilty/not guilty in finality.
////it's like saying the verdict and sentencing are "separate trials" just because the US does them separately. They aren't and no-one in the US would consider them to be, just like few in Italy would consider these separate trials.
2014-02-01 03:48:43 PM
1 votes:
I will take "innocent until proven guilty" and "government prohibited from proven double jeopardy" over Italian justice. I don't understand how this can happen here, or the arguments in that regard in this thread.
2014-02-01 12:18:56 PM
1 votes:

Gecko Gingrich: Doktor_Zhivago: If a US appeals court declares you get a new trial during your appeals process you get a new trial. There's not really a difference here.

Yes. *You* can appeal your guilty verdict. *The Government* cannot appeal your innocent verdict.


this is also false

she was found guilty court
overturned in appellate court
that appeal was overturned in the supreme court and sent back for retrial

that is totally possible in the US, esp depending on what the appeal was about in the first place: false testimony, evidence, misconduct, etc etc etc

The high court could have overturned the appeal and just reinstated the sentence. So it could have been worse.

THIS IS WHY YOU NEVER , EVER TALK TO THE POLICE without a lawyer.
AND never ever talk to the health people about HIV without a lawyer.

farkIT, I am becoming a lawyer so I will be safe talking to people.
 
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