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(KPHO Phoenix)   Elderly ice cream litigant loses to Kroger in small claims court, threatens to file another lawsuit, this time in Superior Court   (kpho.com ) divider line
    More: Followup, superior courts, Kroger, McKay, Washington Street, weights and measures  
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2087 clicks; posted to Business » on 01 Feb 2014 at 2:25 PM (2 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-02-01 01:00:23 PM  
The important question: Is this an old man shouting at clouds failure or an imperial system failure?  Or both?

/whynotboth.jpg
//metric bigot
 
2014-02-01 01:59:20 PM  
Hahaha! I've had to deal with my fair share of psychos who have complained of this very problem. Nice to see one of the louder ones get smacked down by a judge.

/DOA Code Enforcement Officer
 
2014-02-01 02:37:37 PM  
How much does that ice cream equate to in hogsheads?
 
2014-02-01 02:47:26 PM  
Fluid ounces are a measure of volume. Dry ounces are a measure of weight (or is it mass?). My point being it depends on what the label actually says. Does it say fluid ounces or net weight x ounces?
 
2014-02-01 02:58:52 PM  
It's hard to know what the issue was since the article and the other half-dozen ones I Googled don't go into enough detail. Was he trying to interpret the ad as though it were stating weight ounces when the ad really intended volume ounces?
 
2014-02-01 02:59:28 PM  
I looked at every ice cream container I have (yes, yes, I sound fat) and they all say fluid ounces.
Somebody in the previous thread even had Kroger brand ice cream as featured in TFA, those also said fluid ounces.

Word is, Joe Biden is watching this case very closely.
 
2014-02-01 03:11:00 PM  

jjorsett: It's hard to know what the issue was since the article and the other half-dozen ones I Googled don't go into enough detail. Was he trying to interpret the ad as though it were stating weight ounces when the ad really intended volume ounces?


Yep, you may have blocked the video in TFA, they explain it there.  Maybe he found some packages (or grocery store ads) of some ice cream not explicitly stamped with "FL OZ," but that is doubtful. Most likely, he's a retiree with way too much time on his hands and he's forgotten his middle school science class that covered this topic.
 
2014-02-01 03:23:45 PM  
Let's escalate things. Someone show him something weighed in troy ounces.
 
2014-02-01 03:58:10 PM  
i1.ytimg.com

"That's the Fairsley difference!"
 
2014-02-01 05:03:06 PM  
Welcome to the world of Arizona.  We are surrounded by these types of arseholes EVERYWHERE!
 
2014-02-01 05:21:24 PM  
The real question is, why the hell did he weigh his ice cream anyway?
 
2014-02-01 05:22:14 PM  
The cartons are almost certainly stamped "FL OZ" (in addition to the volume in QT) but it is not clear whether Kroger's printed advertisements for said ice cream mistakenly dropped the "FL". Seems like they probably did.
 
2014-02-01 05:31:29 PM  
McKay said that the entire lawsuit stemmed from Morris' inability to accept the difference between a fluid ounce and a dry ounce.

So, he is insane.
 
2014-02-01 05:45:48 PM  
The density of water is 1 av oz per fluid ounce.  In ice cream, a lower density means that, with the assistance of carrageenan and other thickening agents the ice cream's density is being reduced by whipping in air. Fos some reason the air doesn't make the ingredient list, although it makes up a good portion of the volume.

That percentage of air instead of ice cream is what he is suing over.  Good for him.  Remember when Breyers Vanilla met the federal standard for "Ice Cream"?  They had to change the packaging to "frozen dairy dessert" to stay legal. And you can bet there are plenty of makers lobbying (likely on health grounds) to be able to call whipped, frozen watered-down skim milk and high-fructose corn syrup "ice cream".
 
2014-02-01 05:48:54 PM  
A liquid ounce is not a weight ounce, you tard!
 
zez
2014-02-01 06:12:06 PM  
Gerald Morris, 71, accused Fry's Food Stores and its parent company Kroger of misleading customers by posting deceptive ice cream ads.


i2.photobucket.com

There isn't enough ice cream in this tub!!!!!
 
2014-02-01 08:01:35 PM  

ncsu_wolfpack: The real question is, why the hell did he weigh his ice cream anyway?


Because it is actually a fact that food manufacturers do as much as possible to obfuscate the real volume of food in a given container, whether that means creative packaging or confusing weights like these. So it's entirely possible this guy isn't crazy. Anyone else see that Cup Noodle picture that George Takei (IIRC) was floating around Facebook the other day, where the bottom 1/3 of the container was air when someone tore the side away?
 
2014-02-01 08:15:43 PM  

ladyfortuna: ncsu_wolfpack: The real question is, why the hell did he weigh his ice cream anyway?

Because it is actually a fact that food manufacturers do as much as possible to obfuscate the real volume of food in a given container, whether that means creative packaging or confusing weights like these. So it's entirely possible this guy isn't crazy. Anyone else see that Cup Noodle picture that George Takei (IIRC) was floating around Facebook the other day, where the bottom 1/3 of the container was air when someone tore the side away?


But it's not a confusing weight. It's a volume. Period.
 
2014-02-01 08:30:57 PM  
So, it was so funny on Monday that it's worth running again on Saturday?

Good jorb, admins.
 
2014-02-01 08:40:01 PM  

LibertyHiller: So, it was so funny on Monday that it's worth running again on Saturday?

Good jorb, admins.


New information (he lost the case), hence, the followup tag on the very left side of the entry.
I wish the repeat police would figure out the Followup tag, it really seems to confuse them.
 
2014-02-01 08:48:21 PM  
Hate to say it but I agree with the old man. If they ad said ounces but not "fluid ounces" he would be correct. The FDA guidelines specifically state fluid ounces.
.... from FDA stuff

Statements of weight shall be in terms of avoirdupois pound and ounce.
(2) Statements of fluid measure shall be in terms of the U.S. gallon of 231 cubic inches and quart, pint, and fluid ounce subdivisions thereof, and shall:
(i) In the case of frozen food that is sold and consumed in a frozen state, express the volume at the frozen temperature.
(ii) In the case of refrigerated food that is sold in the refrigerated state, express the volume at 40 deg. F (4 deg. C).
(iii) In the case of other foods, express the volume at 68 deg. F (20 deg. C).
(3) Statements of dry measure shall be in terms of the U.S. bushel of 2,150.42 cubic inches and peck, dry quart, and dry pint subdivisions thereof.   etc etc.
 
2014-02-01 09:37:40 PM  

SwiftFox: The density of water is 1 av oz per fluid ounce.  In ice cream, a lower density means that, with the assistance of carrageenan and other thickening agents the ice cream's density is being reduced by whipping in air. Fos some reason the air doesn't make the ingredient list, although it makes up a good portion of the volume.

That percentage of air instead of ice cream is what he is suing over.  Good for him.  Remember when Breyers Vanilla met the federal standard for "Ice Cream"?  They had to change the packaging to "frozen dairy dessert" to stay legal. And you can bet there are plenty of makers lobbying (likely on health grounds) to be able to call whipped, frozen watered-down skim milk and high-fructose corn syrup "ice cream".


I look carefully when buying ice cream, if its "frozen dairy dessert" I dont buy it. Its probably made with Malk(now with vitamen R)
 
2014-02-02 12:49:00 AM  

LesserEvil: How much does that ice cream equate to in hogsheads?


One fortnight.
 
2014-02-02 12:53:40 AM  

buzzcut73: LibertyHiller: So, it was so funny on Monday that it's worth running again on Saturday?

Good jorb, admins.

New information (he lost the case), hence, the followup tag on the very left side of the entry.
I wish the repeat police would figure out the Followup tag, it really seems to confuse them.


I blame the "news" source - it's the same article from Monday with a couple of sentences added and some verbs re-tensed.
 
2014-02-02 02:00:55 AM  

felching pen: LesserEvil: How much does that ice cream equate to in hogsheads?

One fortnight.


How many fathoms is that?
 
2014-02-02 02:27:15 AM  
Senile old man in Arizona abusing the legal system and complaining about things his Alzheimer's addled brain couldn't possibly comprehend? John McCain, is that you?
 
2014-02-02 02:29:21 AM  

Oldiron_79: felching pen: LesserEvil: How much does that ice cream equate to in hogsheads?

One fortnight.

How many fathoms is that?


It's the velocity of an unladen swallow.
 
2014-02-02 02:36:15 AM  

freakingmoron: Oldiron_79: felching pen: LesserEvil: How much does that ice cream equate to in hogsheads?

One fortnight.

How many fathoms is that?

It's the velocity of an unladen swallow.


African or European swallow?
 
2014-02-02 02:50:33 AM  

Oldiron_79: freakingmoron: Oldiron_79: felching pen: LesserEvil: How much does that ice cream equate to in hogsheads?

One fortnight.

How many fathoms is that?

It's the velocity of an unladen swallow.

African or European swallow?


Asian

The real question is, how many parsecs is it, and did Hans shoot first?
 
2014-02-02 03:03:47 AM  

RightWingWacko: Oldiron_79: freakingmoron: Oldiron_79: felching pen: LesserEvil: How much does that ice cream equate to in hogsheads?

One fortnight.

How many fathoms is that?

It's the velocity of an unladen swallow.

African or European swallow?

Asian

The real question is, how many parsecs is it, and did Hans shoot first?


If course Han shot first . He outdrew Greedo by at least a furlong.
 
2014-02-02 03:32:10 AM  
One more reason we should be using metric.  I hate having to figure if a recipe is calling for fluid ounces or dry ounces.  Liters and grams are hard to mess up.

And if you feel that the Man is short changing you on your ice cream, spend a few bucks for a home ice cream maker and do it yourself.
 
2014-02-02 03:33:21 AM  

ncsu_wolfpack: ladyfortuna: ncsu_wolfpack: The real question is, why the hell did he weigh his ice cream anyway?

Because it is actually a fact that food manufacturers do as much as possible to obfuscate the real volume of food in a given container, whether that means creative packaging or confusing weights like these. So it's entirely possible this guy isn't crazy. Anyone else see that Cup Noodle picture that George Takei (IIRC) was floating around Facebook the other day, where the bottom 1/3 of the container was air when someone tore the side away?

But it's not a confusing weight. It's a volume. Period.


That's assuming the manufacturer didn't lie or make the label confusing about the weight/volume.

This isn't a new deception... it's been going on for decades.
 
2014-02-02 05:03:23 AM  
Why is there a difference between fluid and dry ounce anyway?  Seems like it would be simpler to just have "ounce" without a fluid, dry or other prefix
 
2014-02-02 05:55:57 AM  

ncsu_wolfpack: The real question is, why the hell did he weigh his ice cream anyway?


He weighed himself before eating the ice cream and then again immediately after eating the entire container. When he calculated his weight difference it was neither what the ad said, nor was it what the container said. He knew someone had to pay.
 
2014-02-02 07:11:48 AM  

Cloudchaser Sakonige the Red Wolf: Why is there a difference between fluid and dry ounce anyway? Seems like it would be simpler to just have "ounce" without a fluid, dry or other prefix


This is in fact what we would do, if all things had the same density. Of course, then, life couldn't exist. But at least there would be no confusion!
 
2014-02-02 09:38:17 AM  
I'd just like to say "avoirdupois", because it's a fun word to say.

/avoirdupois
 
2014-02-02 09:46:11 AM  

proteus_b: Cloudchaser Sakonige the Red Wolf: Why is there a difference between fluid and dry ounce anyway? Seems like it would be simpler to just have "ounce" without a fluid, dry or other prefix

This is in fact what we would do, if all things had the same density. Of course, then, life couldn't exist. But at least there would be no confusion!


Somebody ought to sue somebody and make them sell by weight instead of volume. I don't care if they want to use fluid ounces, so long as they are using them as a measure of weight - i.e. about 1.04 dry ounces.
 
2014-02-02 10:22:26 AM  

SwiftFox: The density of water is 1 av oz per fluid ounce.  In ice cream, a lower density means that, with the assistance of carrageenan and other thickening agents the ice cream's density is being reduced by whipping in air. Fos some reason the air doesn't make the ingredient list, although it makes up a good portion of the volume.

That percentage of air instead of ice cream is what he is suing over.  Good for him.  Remember when Breyers Vanilla met the federal standard for "Ice Cream"?  They had to change the packaging to "frozen dairy dessert" to stay legal. And you can bet there are plenty of makers lobbying (likely on health grounds) to be able to call whipped, frozen watered-down skim milk and high-fructose corn syrup "ice cream".


Not saying there isn't a ton of air, because obviously there is, but you seem to be implying that water and ice cream should have the same density.
 
2014-02-02 10:52:11 AM  

Delta1212: SwiftFox: The density of water is 1 av oz per fluid ounce.  In ice cream, a lower density means that, with the assistance of carrageenan and other thickening agents the ice cream's density is being reduced by whipping in air. Fos some reason the air doesn't make the ingredient list, although it makes up a good portion of the volume.

That percentage of air instead of ice cream is what he is suing over.  Good for him.  Remember when Breyers Vanilla met the federal standard for "Ice Cream"?  They had to change the packaging to "frozen dairy dessert" to stay legal. And you can bet there are plenty of makers lobbying (likely on health grounds) to be able to call whipped, frozen watered-down skim milk and high-fructose corn syrup "ice cream".

Not saying there isn't a ton of air, because obviously there is, but you seem to be implying that water and ice cream should have the same density.


I should have said, "a lower density compared to other ice cream" perhaps.  Some air is probably needed for the right consistency.  But do we need a race for how little actual ingredient is being sold as 48 fluid ounces of "ice cream" aerogel?
 
2014-02-02 11:16:41 AM  

Delta1212: SwiftFox: The density of water is 1 av oz per fluid ounce.  In ice cream, a lower density means that, with the assistance of carrageenan and other thickening agents the ice cream's density is being reduced by whipping in air. Fos some reason the air doesn't make the ingredient list, although it makes up a good portion of the volume.

That percentage of air instead of ice cream is what he is suing over.  Good for him.  Remember when Breyers Vanilla met the federal standard for "Ice Cream"?  They had to change the packaging to "frozen dairy dessert" to stay legal. And you can bet there are plenty of makers lobbying (likely on health grounds) to be able to call whipped, frozen watered-down skim milk and high-fructose corn syrup "ice cream".

Not saying there isn't a ton of air, because obviously there is, but you seem to be implying that water and ice cream should have the same density.


They're damn close. Milk and cream are actually heavier than water at 4.4C. 1.02-1.008

Yes, ice is ligher than water by a fair bit, specific gravity of .917, and milk is 70% water, so one could reasonably assume that the specific gravity of frozen milk is .959 or thereabouts. This is before we account for sugar and other things.

I don't remember the exact details on the suit but wasn't it something like a specific gravity of .6-.7 that this guy was citing?

Also, if you compressed the article in question, you would lose all the air out of the container. What else do you know that's sold by volume instead of weight that has a high air content?
 
2014-02-02 11:26:11 AM  

SwiftFox: Delta1212: SwiftFox: The density of water is 1 av oz per fluid ounce.  In ice cream, a lower density means that, with the assistance of carrageenan and other thickening agents the ice cream's density is being reduced by whipping in air. Fos some reason the air doesn't make the ingredient list, although it makes up a good portion of the volume.

That percentage of air instead of ice cream is what he is suing over.  Good for him.  Remember when Breyers Vanilla met the federal standard for "Ice Cream"?  They had to change the packaging to "frozen dairy dessert" to stay legal. And you can bet there are plenty of makers lobbying (likely on health grounds) to be able to call whipped, frozen watered-down skim milk and high-fructose corn syrup "ice cream".

Not saying there isn't a ton of air, because obviously there is, but you seem to be implying that water and ice cream should have the same density.

I should have said, "a lower density compared to other ice cream" perhaps.  Some air is probably needed for the right consistency.  But do we need a race for how little actual ingredient is being sold as 48 fluid ounces of "ice cream" aerogel?


We're already in that race. I remember when ice cream came in rectangular boxes that would break your foot if you dropped them.

Now, if you drop ice cream in one of those rounded tubs, it doesn't even dent.

Also, it used to be a half gallon. Then 56 oz. Then 48 oz. I've seen 42oz already.
 
2014-02-02 12:21:34 PM  

mrlewish: Hate to say it but I agree with the old man. If they ad said ounces but not "fluid ounces" he would be correct. The FDA guidelines specifically state fluid ounces.


If the ad circular says one thing, and when you get to the store the actual product packaging says another, then whose fault is it if you buy it anyway?
 
2014-02-02 12:47:36 PM  

Goimir: SwiftFox: Delta1212: SwiftFox: The density of water is 1 av oz per fluid ounce.  In ice cream, a lower density means that, with the assistance of carrageenan and other thickening agents the ice cream's density is being reduced by whipping in air. Fos some reason the air doesn't make the ingredient list, although it makes up a good portion of the volume.

That percentage of air instead of ice cream is what he is suing over.  Good for him.  Remember when Breyers Vanilla met the federal standard for "Ice Cream"?  They had to change the packaging to "frozen dairy dessert" to stay legal. And you can bet there are plenty of makers lobbying (likely on health grounds) to be able to call whipped, frozen watered-down skim milk and high-fructose corn syrup "ice cream".

Not saying there isn't a ton of air, because obviously there is, but you seem to be implying that water and ice cream should have the same density.

I should have said, "a lower density compared to other ice cream" perhaps.  Some air is probably needed for the right consistency.  But do we need a race for how little actual ingredient is being sold as 48 fluid ounces of "ice cream" aerogel?

We're already in that race. I remember when ice cream came in rectangular boxes that would break your foot if you dropped them.

Now, if you drop ice cream in one of those rounded tubs, it doesn't even dent.

Also, it used to be a half gallon. Then 56 oz. Then 48 oz. I've seen 42oz already.


Id rather the price have gone up a buck or 2 and the size stayed the same.
 
2014-02-02 02:31:43 PM  

itcamefromschenectady: Somebody ought to sue somebody and make them sell by weight instead of volume. I don't care if they want to use fluid ounces, so long as they are using them as a measure of weight - i.e. about 1.04 dry ounces.


Why?

How about, if you're dissatisfied with a product that costs less than five dollars, you don't buy another one. Rather than wasting thousands of dollars by putting into our courts.
 
2014-02-02 03:32:19 PM  

proteus_b: itcamefromschenectady: Somebody ought to sue somebody and make them sell by weight instead of volume. I don't care if they want to use fluid ounces, so long as they are using them as a measure of weight - i.e. about 1.04 dry ounces.

Why?

How about, if you're dissatisfied with a product that costs less than five dollars, you don't buy another one. Rather than wasting thousands of dollars by putting into our courts.


How about, if you're dissatisfied with a dictator that kills jews, you don't elect another one. Rather than wasting millions of young men by putting into world war ][.
 
2014-02-02 04:22:33 PM  

proteus_b: itcamefromschenectady: Somebody ought to sue somebody and make them sell by weight instead of volume. I don't care if they want to use fluid ounces, so long as they are using them as a measure of weight - i.e. about 1.04 dry ounces.

Why?

How about, if you're dissatisfied with a product that costs less than five dollars, you don't buy another one. Rather than wasting thousands of dollars by putting into our courts.


I don't buy ice cream, because I'm disgusted by the shady practices of the frozen dessert industrial complex. If the labeling was more honest, I would buy some, thereby stimulating the economy and putting people to work. If you hate lawyers and class-action lawsuits, you evidently hate the free market. QED.
 
2014-02-02 04:27:11 PM  

Goimir: proteus_b: itcamefromschenectady: Somebody ought to sue somebody and make them sell by weight instead of volume. I don't care if they want to use fluid ounces, so long as they are using them as a measure of weight - i.e. about 1.04 dry ounces.

Why?

How about, if you're dissatisfied with a product that costs less than five dollars, you don't buy another one. Rather than wasting thousands of dollars by putting into our courts.

How about, if you're dissatisfied with a dictator that kills jews, you don't elect another one. Rather than wasting millions of young men by putting into world war ][.


Even the most hide-bound libertarians used to believe that it was an appropriate role for the government to regulate weights and measures and standards and such to promote honest commerce. The cry of "free market" has become an excuse for promoting the freedom for companies to defraud the public by any means available. And that is promoting the destruction of the free market economy. You can't have free market competition if you don't have comparable products in stores.
 
2014-02-02 05:51:32 PM  

Goimir: How about, if you're dissatisfied with a dictator that kills jews, you don't elect another one.


If the dictator kills less than five Jews, I think that's a fair approach.
 
2014-02-02 06:05:07 PM  

poot_rootbeer: Goimir: How about, if you're dissatisfied with a dictator that kills jews, you don't elect another one.

If the dictator kills less than five Jews, I think that's a fair approach.


I hope neither of us ever runs for office.
 
2014-02-02 08:25:01 PM  

Goimir: How about, if you're dissatisfied with a dictator that kills jews, you don't elect another one. Rather than wasting millions of young men by putting into world war ][.


Not sure I get the joke. It's cause I'm Jewish, so I'm supposed to laugh. Ha ha. Yes, Mr. White Man, you have a superior sense of humor. No, I understand your joke. It is very very funny.

/did anyone get it?
 
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