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    More: Obvious, Television in Russia, Leningrad, Russians, Alexei Navalny, United Russia, President Vladimir Putin, previous questions  
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17397 clicks; posted to Main » on 31 Jan 2014 at 3:12 PM (24 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-01-31 03:53:17 PM

carnifex2005: The American equivalent...  Should Lincoln have let the Confederate states secede to save hundreds of thousands of lives?


Let's see: no Florida, no Alabama, likely no Texas. The idea could get some traction.
 
2014-01-31 03:54:43 PM

Travis_Bickle: mcreadyblue: Travis_Bickle: mcreadyblue: fickenchucker: My understanding is I'm grateful the Russians consider life to be disposable.  If they didn't sacrifice so much to annoy the Nazis, the result of WWII could have been very different.

Problem is Communism breeds that type of indifference about human life, so we'd better make sure China thinks it something to lose in the long run.  If not, they have a billion more meatbags than we do.

Nah...the winter is what destroyed Hitlers Army...just like Napoleans a century before.

/and lack of oil

Always nice to hear from History channel experts.

No it's years of playing Axis & Allies. :-)

Speaking of the History Channel..What's the name of the general that Hitler put in charge of the Russian Front? The one so stupid he was not charged at the Nuremburg Trials because he was thought to have done more for the Allies than the Axis?

AYRTS?

Are you talking about Franz Halder who Hitler replaced during Stalingrad in 1942? Maybe you're talking about Von Brautschich.

Or maybe you're just talking out of your ass


Just curious, where do you get your info? I have a passing interest in WW2 because of all the machinery involved, along with the batshiat crazy thinking that went with it (Hitler & crew). Care to recommend a book or website? The hubris of Hitler, and the mileage they got from the German army us amazing to me.
 
2014-01-31 03:59:05 PM
NO, next question.
 
2014-01-31 03:59:24 PM

mcreadyblue: Crass and Jaded Mother Farker: Should Leningrad have surrendered?

I'm gonna' have to go with no...



The Nazi's didn't have a history of being good winners.

People Paris did not resort to canibalism.


Nazi Germany had a very different attitude toward Russians. See Russian POW treatment by Wehrmacht vs American, British, and French POWs.

Essentially, Russians were intended to be wiped out.
 
2014-01-31 03:59:46 PM

fickenchucker: My understanding is I'm grateful the Russians consider life to be disposable.  If they didn't sacrifice so much to annoy the Nazis, the result of WWII could have been very different.

Problem is Communism breeds that type of indifference about human life, so we'd better make sure China thinks it something to lose in the long run.  If not, they have a billion more meatbags than we do.


Russia was treating its peasant population like a disposable resource long before Communism.
 
2014-01-31 04:00:52 PM
The Russians are justifiably proud of their endurance through out the Siege of Leningrad. It was, after all, the former capital of Russia under the name of Saint Petersberg, a city built on the bodies of thousands of men in a swamp (like Washington), and one of the great artistic and architectural glories of the world.

Also, the Nazis were notoriously sticky-fingered and since the disappearance of the Amber Room, nobody would want any of their treasures carted off to Berlin. You'll never see half of them again. We're talking the Hermitage Museum and stuff. That's a lot of great masters to lose!

In any case, it would have been embarrassing to surrender Leningrad only to have Jews remind you of the Siege of the Warsaw Ghetto in perpetuity. We're talking a race that lost Jerusalem at least twice and that hadn't been allowed to join the military in most Christian nations for about 1800 years. They'd sooner have surrendered Jerusalem and the Middle East to the Muslims.

Leningrad was as close to a warm water port as they had or may ever have. If they ever eliminate the Turk and the Arab, they'll build one regardless of what engineering or geographical obstacles stand in their way. That is what St. Petersburg means:  Russia wants the World.

It was a terrible, terrible battle with the Germans being extra vicious because they regarded the Slavs as sub-human, Jew-ridden,  and a credible military threat. Furthermore, it was, if I recall correctly, the Germans who broke the secret treaty. Nothing makes humans angrier than being in the wrong. They will never forgive you for letting them betray you. That is the sin for which there is no remission.

In short, I would go with the Russian patriots on this one. Leningrad surrendered? Unthinkable.

And I am only kidding about Washington at Valley Forge. The colonials were in a bad way, without shoes or boots and with only rags to cover their bare asses. They were underarmed (because at the time of the Revolution only about 1% of American men owned firearms--they had to be hand-made, every single part being crafted separately and thus few of them being interchangeable--that was a great renovation of Mssrs. Smith, Weston, Remington, etc.--the standardization of munitions manufacturing made it possible to grab a gun and replace a missing part even on the battlefield in some cases, as well as to manufacture them on an industrial scale). All in all, Washington took a calculated risk and succeeded against a stronger foe. Nothing succeeds like success, as they say.

In a similar way, the sacrifices of Russians during the Siege of Leningrad were a long shot but they won the war even though it cost them 25,000,000 or more casualties. In fact, even some American and British historians are prepared to entertain the idea that the Russians were instrumental in preventing the Germans from winning World War II because they allowed time for the Americans to enter the war. Hitler showed willingness to make a separate peace with the UK, which would have left Europe in his hands and possibly permitted success on the Western Front. The US would have lost its chance to fight the Nazis and the Germans over there, rather than over here.

As a matter of fact, the Nazis were already over here, at least in a small way. There is evidence that they came ashore in the Canadian North which was almost completely indefensible against a submarine popping up in the night. The Japanese did attack US territory (Hawaii) and could have attacked the West Coast if the US navy hadn't ramped up to do the job. In between wars the US navy had sunken to new lows. Just how low is partially proven by Pearl Harbor. But that was probably as much diplomatic and intelligence failure as military weakness.

Nobody likes to contemplate the union of Eurasia under any power, French, Russian, Nazi or Commie, so peace would have been a tragedy in 1941 or 1942. And the Japanese were prepared not to quit until the second atom bomb dropped. That proved that the US would not stop making them or using them as long as they were in the war to win.

That's why we must always be at war with Eurasia, even in "peace time". The en jeu is bigger than mere empires. It is the world as long as anybody believes that one world, one empire is possible.
 
2014-01-31 04:01:17 PM

Travis_Bickle: mcreadyblue: Travis_Bickle: mcreadyblue: fickenchucker: My understanding is I'm grateful the Russians consider life to be disposable.  If they didn't sacrifice so much to annoy the Nazis, the result of WWII could have been very different.

Problem is Communism breeds that type of indifference about human life, so we'd better make sure China thinks it something to lose in the long run.  If not, they have a billion more meatbags than we do.

Nah...the winter is what destroyed Hitlers Army...just like Napoleans a century before.

/and lack of oil

Always nice to hear from History channel experts.

No it's years of playing Axis & Allies. :-)

Speaking of the History Channel..What's the name of the general that Hitler put in charge of the Russian Front? The one so stupid he was not charged at the Nuremburg Trials because he was thought to have done more for the Allies than the Axis?

AYRTS?

Are you talking about Franz Halder who Hitler replaced during Stalingrad in 1942? Maybe you're talking about Von Brautschich.

Or maybe you're just talking out of your ass


Why so hostile?
 
2014-01-31 04:03:13 PM

fickenchucker: My understanding is I'm grateful the Russians consider life to be disposable.  If they didn't sacrifice so much to annoy the Nazis, the result of WWII could have been very different.

Problem is Communism breeds that type of indifference about human life, so we'd better make sure China thinks it something to lose in the long run.  If not, they have a billion more meatbags than we do.


and lets not forget about the Monarchists who treated the bulk of people as pawns in their dynastic wars
and the imperialists who though nothing of killing the little people to push forward their borders
and the capatalists who destroy lives in pursuit of th all mighty dollar
and the totalitarians, who Fickenchucker thinks are communists
and the Theocrats who work to destroy every person who cannot conform to their dogmatic beliefs
and the neo-conservatives (neo-liberal in Europe) who desire war and sending our children to death above all other things
and the Tea Baggers who think there was a golden era in the past where everything was better and it got bad because of,   just about anything.
 
2014-01-31 04:06:08 PM

Dr Jack Badofsky: Travis_Bickle: mcreadyblue: Travis_Bickle: mcreadyblue: fickenchucker: My understanding is I'm grateful the Russians consider life to be disposable.  If they didn't sacrifice so much to annoy the Nazis, the result of WWII could have been very different.

Problem is Communism breeds that type of indifference about human life, so we'd better make sure China thinks it something to lose in the long run.  If not, they have a billion more meatbags than we do.

Nah...the winter is what destroyed Hitlers Army...just like Napoleans a century before.

/and lack of oil

Always nice to hear from History channel experts.

No it's years of playing Axis & Allies. :-)

Speaking of the History Channel..What's the name of the general that Hitler put in charge of the Russian Front? The one so stupid he was not charged at the Nuremburg Trials because he was thought to have done more for the Allies than the Axis?

AYRTS?

Are you talking about Franz Halder who Hitler replaced during Stalingrad in 1942? Maybe you're talking about Von Brautschich.

Or maybe you're just talking out of your ass

Just curious, where do you get your info? I have a passing interest in WW2 because of all the machinery involved, along with the batshiat crazy thinking that went with it (Hitler & crew). Care to recommend a book or website? The hubris of Hitler, and the mileage they got from the German army us amazing to me.


For analysis of Hitler and how Nazi Germany came to be and the bizarre way it functioned I'd strongly recommend Ian Kershaw's biography of Hitler. A great book about the folly of Barbarossa is David Stahel's Operation Barbarossa and Germany's Defeat in the East. It's the first of three books he wrote on the eastern front in the first year. It's a great book.

http://www.amazon.com/Operation-Barbarossa-Germanys-Cambridge-Histor ie s/dp/052117015X/ref=la_B0028ONUK8_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1391202084&s r=1-2
 
2014-01-31 04:08:27 PM

vudukungfu: attempt to rehabilitate Nazism,

That's like letting the Bush family publish history books.


Where's Henry Ford's "Nazi Hero of the German People" award again? I can't seem to...oh, wait..
www.traces.org
http://www.examiner.com/article/henry-ford-s-nazi-medal

Those who do not know history are condemned to drive it.
 
2014-01-31 04:14:10 PM

carnifex2005: The American equivalent...  Should Lincoln have let the Confederate states secede to save hundreds of thousands of lives?


Yes.

More importantly:  Should America have improved its security policies with locked cockpit doors on aeroplanes to avoid crippling the economy, wasteful and counterproductive invasions of other countries, and sacrificing human rights for its citizens?
 
2014-01-31 04:14:10 PM

brantgoose: The Russians are justifiably proud of their endurance through out the Siege of Leningrad. It was, after all, the former capital of Russia under the name of Saint Petersberg, a city built on the bodies of thousands of men in a swamp (like Washington), and one of the great artistic and architectural glories of the world.

Also, the Nazis were notoriously sticky-fingered and since the disappearance of the Amber Room, nobody would want any of their treasures carted off to Berlin. You'll never see half of them again. We're talking the Hermitage Museum and stuff. That's a lot of great masters to lose!

In any case, it would have been embarrassing to surrender Leningrad only to have Jews remind you of the Siege of the Warsaw Ghetto in perpetuity. We're talking a race that lost Jerusalem at least twice and that hadn't been allowed to join the military in most Christian nations for about 1800 years. They'd sooner have surrendered Jerusalem and the Middle East to the Muslims.

Leningrad was as close to a warm water port as they had or may ever have. If they ever eliminate the Turk and the Arab, they'll build one regardless of what engineering or geographical obstacles stand in their way. That is what St. Petersburg means:  Russia wants the World.

It was a terrible, terrible battle with the Germans being extra vicious because they regarded the Slavs as sub-human, Jew-ridden,  and a credible military threat. Furthermore, it was, if I recall correctly, the Germans who broke the secret treaty. Nothing makes humans angrier than being in the wrong. They will never forgive you for letting them betray you. That is the sin for which there is no remission.

In short, I would go with the Russian patriots on this one. Leningrad surrendered? Unthinkable.

And I am only kidding about Washington at Valley Forge. The colonials were in a bad way, without shoes or boots and with only rags to cover their bare asses. They were underarmed (because at the time of the Revolution only about 1% of A ...


JAPAN know it wasn't exactly a state yet, but the Japanese did manage to take over the Alleutian islands, and send those weird aerial bombs via balloons that did next to no damage on the west coast.
 
2014-01-31 04:16:12 PM
Bravo Subby! I think contextual HOTY material here.....

/but the answer is no. Cause then I wouldn't have had some kick ass levels to play in World at War.
 
2014-01-31 04:25:54 PM

Polish Hussar: Stone Meadow: On the plus side, a third of Russian men still drink themselves to death by vodka.

Did I just say that? I didn't say THAT! ;)

Come on, don't exaggerate the situation.   It's only a quarter.


That's weird...the LA Times article I read this morning said 37%.

http://www.latimes.com/science/sciencenow/la-sci-sn-vodka-russian-me n- 20140130,0,2473214.story#axzz2s0uJ3u6Z
 
2014-01-31 04:36:01 PM
Nazis invaded Stalingrad.
 
2014-01-31 04:36:06 PM
In any Russia, government decides how history evolves
/that's not a joke
 
2014-01-31 04:38:51 PM
Like the Nazis wouldn't have killed that many people anyway.
 
2014-01-31 04:56:47 PM

aerojockey: Like the Nazis wouldn't have killed that many people anyway.




Debatable.
The nazis where there to suit Hitlers ego but were in desperate need of equipment and manpower. Assuming there wasn't resistance, they'd have probably settled for killing leadership figures and divided the rest of the population into work camps and conscripted forces.
Stalin went on to do his own madman thing after the war, so overall it would probably have been a wash between the two.

/It was a bad era to be in Russia.
 
2014-01-31 04:58:55 PM
Somewhat tangentially related cool story bro:

I recently acquired a copy of Erwin Rommel's book Infanterie Greift An. It's an absolutely fascinating read; and even includes a introduction by Manfred Rommel concerning his father's involvement in Operation Valkyrie and the plot to kill Hitler.
 
2014-01-31 05:02:31 PM

way south: aerojockey: Like the Nazis wouldn't have killed that many people anyway.

Debatable.
The nazis where there to suit Hitlers ego but were in desperate need of equipment and manpower. Assuming there wasn't resistance, they'd have probably settled for killing leadership figures and divided the rest of the population into work camps and conscripted forces.
Stalin went on to do his own madman thing after the war, so overall it would probably have been a wash between the two.

/It was a bad era to be in Russia.


That implies there's a good era to be in Russia.

I'm reading a sweeping historical novel called Russka, which details the history of Russia from the perspective a few fictionalised families.  There's really no period of history that didn't suck donkey balls for Russian peasants.  If they weren't being brutalised by steppe slave-raiders or Mongol invaders, their own rulers and aristocracy would generally take up the slack.  Even the enlightened ones like Peter and Catherine resorted to barbarity and mass forced labour.
 
2014-01-31 05:07:18 PM

iheartscotch: Somewhat tangentially related cool story bro:

I recently acquired a copy of Erwin Rommel's book Infanterie Greift An. It's an absolutely fascinating read; and even includes a introduction by Manfred Rommel concerning his father's involvement in Operation Valkyrie and the plot to kill Hitler.


Rommel was involved in that?  Wow.  I had no idea.
 
2014-01-31 05:08:11 PM

Stone Meadow: Polish Hussar: Stone Meadow: On the plus side, a third of Russian men still drink themselves to death by vodka.

Did I just say that? I didn't say THAT! ;)

Come on, don't exaggerate the situation.   It's only a quarter.

That's weird...the LA Times article I read this morning said 37%.

http://www.latimes.com/science/sciencenow/la-sci-sn-vodka-russian-me n- 20140130,0,2473214.story#axzz2s0uJ3u6Z


Clearly the researchers were drunk as well.  Or different publications are quoting different subsets of data for their headlines.  The LA Times article leads with the subset of men in the heaviest drinking category.  The BBC article I linked to leads with the pre-55 mortality figure for the study's general population.
 
2014-01-31 05:18:13 PM

Dr Jack Badofsky: iheartscotch: Somewhat tangentially related cool story bro:

I recently acquired a copy of Erwin Rommel's book Infanterie Greift An. It's an absolutely fascinating read; and even includes a introduction by Manfred Rommel concerning his father's involvement in Operation Valkyrie and the plot to kill Hitler.

Rommel was involved in that?  Wow.  I had no idea.


Yep, that's why the Gestapo took him on a car ride that he never came back from. He was so popular with Germans and the German Army that Hitler gave him the opportunity to commit suicide. It was implied that if he didn't; they'd torture his family.
 
2014-01-31 05:35:19 PM
 
2014-01-31 05:43:05 PM

iheartscotch: Dr Jack Badofsky: iheartscotch: Somewhat tangentially related cool story bro:

I recently acquired a copy of Erwin Rommel's book Infanterie Greift An. It's an absolutely fascinating read; and even includes a introduction by Manfred Rommel concerning his father's involvement in Operation Valkyrie and the plot to kill Hitler.

Rommel was involved in that?  Wow.  I had no idea.

Yep, that's why the Gestapo took him on a car ride that he never came back from. He was so popular with Germans and the German Army that Hitler gave him the opportunity to commit suicide. It was implied that if he didn't; they'd torture his family.


Wouldn't that have been the SS?  I'm not picking nits, I didn't know the Gestapo existed that far into the war.
 
2014-01-31 05:44:14 PM
You should see how Russians react to Company of Heroes 2.
 
2014-01-31 05:53:31 PM

iheartscotch: Somewhat tangentially related cool story bro:

I recently acquired a copy of Erwin Rommel's book Infanterie Greift An. It's an absolutely fascinating read; and even includes a introduction by Manfred Rommel concerning his father's involvement in Operation Valkyrie and the plot to kill Hitler.


You'll also want to read this:

http://www.amazon.com/Memoirs-Ten-Years-Twenty-Days/dp/0306807645
 
2014-01-31 05:54:39 PM

Dr Jack Badofsky: iheartscotch: Dr Jack Badofsky: iheartscotch: Somewhat tangentially related cool story bro:

I recently acquired a copy of Erwin Rommel's book Infanterie Greift An. It's an absolutely fascinating read; and even includes a introduction by Manfred Rommel concerning his father's involvement in Operation Valkyrie and the plot to kill Hitler.

Rommel was involved in that?  Wow.  I had no idea.

Yep, that's why the Gestapo took him on a car ride that he never came back from. He was so popular with Germans and the German Army that Hitler gave him the opportunity to commit suicide. It was implied that if he didn't; they'd torture his family.

Wouldn't that have been the SS?  I'm not picking nits, I didn't know the Gestapo existed that far into the war.


You're right, it was the SS, or at least, they were the ones driving the car; plus a couple other generals and Rommel's aide; I done goofed. I'll have to see if I can find the introduction posted somewhere; because I'm not typing it word for word. It's TL;DR material.
 
2014-01-31 05:54:51 PM

mcreadyblue: fickenchucker: My understanding is I'm grateful the Russians consider life to be disposable.  If they didn't sacrifice so much to annoy the Nazis, the result of WWII could have been very different.

Problem is Communism breeds that type of indifference about human life, so we'd better make sure China thinks it something to lose in the long run.  If not, they have a billion more meatbags than we do.

Nah...the winter is what destroyed Hitlers Army...just like Napoleans a century before.

/and lack of oil


Why not both?
 
2014-01-31 06:17:15 PM

iheartscotch: Dr Jack Badofsky: iheartscotch: Dr Jack Badofsky: iheartscotch: Somewhat tangentially related cool story bro:

I recently acquired a copy of Erwin Rommel's book Infanterie Greift An. It's an absolutely fascinating read; and even includes a introduction by Manfred Rommel concerning his father's involvement in Operation Valkyrie and the plot to kill Hitler.

Rommel was involved in that?  Wow.  I had no idea.

Yep, that's why the Gestapo took him on a car ride that he never came back from. He was so popular with Germans and the German Army that Hitler gave him the opportunity to commit suicide. It was implied that if he didn't; they'd torture his family.

Wouldn't that have been the SS?  I'm not picking nits, I didn't know the Gestapo existed that far into the war.

You're right, it was the SS, or at least, they were the ones driving the car; plus a couple other generals and Rommel's aide; I done goofed. I'll have to see if I can find the introduction posted somewhere; because I'm not typing it word for word. It's TL;DR material.


So, I just flipped through the wiki on Rommel.  Being at war is not a good thing, and I realize the Germans are pictured as nothing but a bunch of bloodthirsty nutjobs (I realize that's not true), but I had Almost ALL the upper leaders figured out to be that way.  I never was sure about Rommel, but with the respect he earned, I wasn't sure if it was through fear or earnest leadership.  If the wiki is true, he seems like a commander that ANY army would respect him, not only because of his tactics, but also his treatment of POW's.  That's a real leader.  He jumped up a few notches in my book.  Sucks he was on such a gruesome lot of maniacs.  He probably would've been dead in a year if he tried to become part of German high command.
 
2014-01-31 06:48:52 PM

vudukungfu: attempt to rehabilitate Nazism,

That's like letting the Bush family publish history books.


Can you do something positive with your life, like drowning yourself in a toilet.
 
2014-01-31 06:58:25 PM
And whose to say many of those peopel would not have died anyway, had Leningrad surrendered, either killed by the Nazis or dying in the inevitable battle to recapture Leningrad.
 
2014-01-31 07:04:07 PM
Great patriotic war my ass, Stalin puts a gun to your head and forced millions of soldiers to bum rush the nazi machine guns - plain and simple.

"Russians were fighting for their lives" yeah - when the officer behind you has a pistol ready to shoot you if you turn around, yes its certainly patriotic.
 
2014-01-31 07:08:06 PM

Dr Jack Badofsky: Travis_Bickle: mcreadyblue: Travis_Bickle: mcreadyblue: fickenchucker: My understanding is I'm grateful the Russians consider life to be disposable.  If they didn't sacrifice so much to annoy the Nazis, the result of WWII could have been very different.

Problem is Communism breeds that type of indifference about human life, so we'd better make sure China thinks it something to lose in the long run.  If not, they have a billion more meatbags than we do.

Nah...the winter is what destroyed Hitlers Army...just like Napoleans a century before.

/and lack of oil

Always nice to hear from History channel experts.

No it's years of playing Axis & Allies. :-)

Speaking of the History Channel..What's the name of the general that Hitler put in charge of the Russian Front? The one so stupid he was not charged at the Nuremburg Trials because he was thought to have done more for the Allies than the Axis?

AYRTS?

Are you talking about Franz Halder who Hitler replaced during Stalingrad in 1942? Maybe you're talking about Von Brautschich.

Or maybe you're just talking out of your ass

Just curious, where do you get your info? I have a passing interest in WW2 because of all the machinery involved, along with the batshiat crazy thinking that went with it (Hitler & crew). Care to recommend a book or website? The hubris of Hitler, and the mileage they got from the German army us amazing to me.


A great book for the overall war is  The Storm of War by Andrew Roberts. It's really good at giving the overall picture but focusing on a lot of small stuff, too. A big part of the book is dedicated to essentially asking, "Could the Germans have won?". He also goes into detail about the missteps on both sides, but particularly of the Germans (Hitler in particular). Basically, if you want to learn a lot about World War II, but don't want to get a degree in it, this is the book to go with.
 
2014-01-31 07:08:47 PM

runwiz: And whose to say many of those peopel would not have died anyway, had Leningrad surrendered, either killed by the Nazis or dying in the inevitable battle to recapture Leningrad.


Or liquidated afterwards as traitors for surrendering.
 
2014-01-31 07:12:29 PM
That talking head zhdanov said that.
 
2014-01-31 07:13:14 PM

Dr Jack Badofsky: iheartscotch: Dr Jack Badofsky: iheartscotch: Somewhat tangentially related cool story bro:

I recently acquired a copy of Erwin Rommel's book Infanterie Greift An. It's an absolutely fascinating read; and even includes a introduction by Manfred Rommel concerning his father's involvement in Operation Valkyrie and the plot to kill Hitler.

Rommel was involved in that?  Wow.  I had no idea.

Yep, that's why the Gestapo took him on a car ride that he never came back from. He was so popular with Germans and the German Army that Hitler gave him the opportunity to commit suicide. It was implied that if he didn't; they'd torture his family.

Wouldn't that have been the SS?  I'm not picking nits, I didn't know the Gestapo existed that far into the war.


I thought it was two Wehrmacht generals.
 
2014-01-31 07:16:30 PM

Misconduc: Great patriotic war my ass, Stalin puts a gun to your head and forced millions of soldiers to bum rush the nazi machine guns - plain and simple.

"Russians were fighting for their lives" yeah - when the officer behind you has a pistol ready to shoot you if you turn around, yes its certainly patriotic.


NKVD blocking battalions.  They weren't blocking the Germans.
 
2014-01-31 07:17:13 PM

Polish Hussar: Stone Meadow: Polish Hussar: Stone Meadow: On the plus side, a third of Russian men still drink themselves to death by vodka.

Did I just say that? I didn't say THAT! ;)

Come on, don't exaggerate the situation.   It's only a quarter.

That's weird...the LA Times article I read this morning said 37%.

http://www.latimes.com/science/sciencenow/la-sci-sn-vodka-russian-me n- 20140130,0,2473214.story#axzz2s0uJ3u6Z

Clearly the researchers were drunk as well.  Or different publications are quoting different subsets of data for their headlines.  The LA Times article leads with the subset of men in the heaviest drinking category.  The BBC article I linked to leads with the pre-55 mortality figure for the study's general population.


Yeah...anyway, that's where I got that "one-third" number from. :)
 
2014-01-31 07:18:12 PM

zimbomba63: Dr Jack Badofsky: iheartscotch: Dr Jack Badofsky: iheartscotch: Somewhat tangentially related cool story bro:

I recently acquired a copy of Erwin Rommel's book Infanterie Greift An. It's an absolutely fascinating read; and even includes a introduction by Manfred Rommel concerning his father's involvement in Operation Valkyrie and the plot to kill Hitler.

Rommel was involved in that?  Wow.  I had no idea.

Yep, that's why the Gestapo took him on a car ride that he never came back from. He was so popular with Germans and the German Army that Hitler gave him the opportunity to commit suicide. It was implied that if he didn't; they'd torture his family.

Wouldn't that have been the SS?  I'm not picking nits, I didn't know the Gestapo existed that far into the war.

I thought it was two Wehrmacht generals.


I read it again, there were two Wehrmacht generals, a SS sergeant major driving the car and Rommel's Aide, if I'm reading it right.

/ damn dyslexia
 
2014-01-31 07:18:29 PM

zimbomba63: Misconduc: Great patriotic war my ass, Stalin puts a gun to your head and forced millions of soldiers to bum rush the nazi machine guns - plain and simple.

"Russians were fighting for their lives" yeah - when the officer behind you has a pistol ready to shoot you if you turn around, yes its certainly patriotic.

NKVD blocking battalions.  They weren't blocking the Germans.


As the saying went..."It takes a brave man to be a coward in the Red Army."
 
2014-01-31 07:24:50 PM

iheartscotch: zimbomba63: Dr Jack Badofsky: iheartscotch: Dr Jack Badofsky: iheartscotch: Somewhat tangentially related cool story bro:

I recently acquired a copy of Erwin Rommel's book Infanterie Greift An. It's an absolutely fascinating read; and even includes a introduction by Manfred Rommel concerning his father's involvement in Operation Valkyrie and the plot to kill Hitler.

Rommel was involved in that?  Wow.  I had no idea.

Yep, that's why the Gestapo took him on a car ride that he never came back from. He was so popular with Germans and the German Army that Hitler gave him the opportunity to commit suicide. It was implied that if he didn't; they'd torture his family.

Wouldn't that have been the SS?  I'm not picking nits, I didn't know the Gestapo existed that far into the war.

I thought it was two Wehrmacht generals.

I read it again, there were two Wehrmacht generals, a SS sergeant major driving the car and Rommel's Aide, if I'm reading it right.

/ damn dyslexia


Youheartscotch a little too much today?
 
2014-01-31 08:02:19 PM
The Germans nearly took Leningrad on the first rush.  The defense of the city was in the hands of the redoubtable Klem Voroshilov.  Back in Moscow they couldn't figure out whether Voroshilov had done a deal with the Nazi's to hand over the city or he simply sucked at, you know, military stuff.  Zhukov was dispatched to straighten things out and Voroshilov was sent back to Moscow, in disgrace.  If Voroshilov hadn't been Stalin's buddy/pal from the civil war, he would been shot.  Stalin was, at least, true to his cavalry pals, I mean he kept that dope Budenny around, he just didn't let him do anything important.
 
2014-01-31 08:56:58 PM

zimbomba63: The Germans nearly took Leningrad on the first rush.  The defense of the city was in the hands of the redoubtable Klem Voroshilov.  Back in Moscow they couldn't figure out whether Voroshilov had done a deal with the Nazi's to hand over the city or he simply sucked at, you know, military stuff.  Zhukov was dispatched to straighten things out and Voroshilov was sent back to Moscow, in disgrace.  If Voroshilov hadn't been Stalin's buddy/pal from the civil war, he would been shot.  Stalin was, at least, true to his cavalry pals, I mean he kept that dope Budenny around, he just didn't let him do anything important.


Budyenny had already done enough screwing up at Kiev. The main damage that Budyenny and Voroshilov did was during the purges and resisting modernization of the Soviet Armed forces.
They were sidelined by late 41 at least. Still had that incompent vicious bastard Lev Mekhlis around to completely clusterfark the Crimea in 42 though.
 
2014-01-31 08:58:38 PM
As many people as died during that battle and as severely devistated as the entire infrastructure of that city was from the prolonged battle they would probably have been better off to have surendered it than to have fought it out from a pure numbers perspective.

But I certainly wouldnt surrender a city to someone as brutal as the Nazis, mothah farkers can come and take it if they want it that badly, numbers be damned.
 
2014-01-31 09:02:12 PM

megarian: Dr Jack Badofsky: megarian: Holy f*ck I thought Trent Reznor died.

He's still alive?

Yes. And looks delicious.


Well, I'm happy for him... but I made a bet with a friend and that shifts the entire pool.
 
2014-01-31 09:31:18 PM
This seems pretty definitive about what a surrender would have gotten the Russians:
According to a directive sent to Army Group North on 29 September, "After the defeat of Soviet Russia there can be no interest in the continued existence of this large urban center. [...] Following the city's encirclement, requests for surrender negotiations shall be denied, since the problem of relocating and feeding the population cannot and should not be solved by us. In this war for our very existence, we can have no interest in maintaining even a part of this very large urban population."[12]

This is from a directive sent by Hitler to Army Group North. A surrender would have meant the slaughter of the population and it seems Hitler intended starvation to do it.

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Leningrad
 
2014-01-31 09:31:44 PM

Oldiron_79: As many people as died during that battle and as severely devistated as the entire infrastructure of that city was from the prolonged battle they would probably have been better off to have surendered it than to have fought it out from a pure numbers perspective.

But I certainly wouldnt surrender a city to someone as brutal as the Nazis, mothah farkers can come and take it if they want it that badly, numbers be damned.


Exactly. "This city... is not Kursk, nor is it Kiev, nor Minsk. This city... is Stalingrad. *Stalingrad*! This city bears the name of the Boss. It's more than a city, it's a symbol. If the Germans... capture this city... the entire country will collapse. Now... I want our boys to raise their heads. I want them to act like they have *balls*! I want them to stop shiatting their pants! That's your job. As political officers... I'm counting on you." ~~RAND PAUL
 
2014-01-31 09:32:57 PM

Oldiron_79: As many people as died during that battle and as severely devistated as the entire infrastructure of that city was from the prolonged battle they would probably have been better off to have surendered it than to have fought it out from a pure numbers perspective.

But I certainly wouldnt surrender a city to someone as brutal as the Nazis, mothah farkers can come and take it if they want it that badly, numbers be damned.


Big talk from somebody who wasn't there to partake of the sawdust bread.

Leningrad falling early would have been very bad for the Soviets.  Elements from Army Group North could have then swung down and participated in an assault on Moscow.

On a side note, I don't really believe in reincarnation, but, when I see the films of the Eastern Front stuff, I get a very uneasy feeling.  Not just any film, but, the ones showing the fighting during winter. It's like I know this, I've seen and felt this, on one side or the other, and I didn't make it.  No, I'm not drunk...yet.
 
2014-01-31 09:44:32 PM

zimbomba63: Oldiron_79: As many people as died during that battle and as severely devistated as the entire infrastructure of that city was from the prolonged battle they would probably have been better off to have surendered it than to have fought it out from a pure numbers perspective.

But I certainly wouldnt surrender a city to someone as brutal as the Nazis, mothah farkers can come and take it if they want it that badly, numbers be damned.

Big talk from somebody who wasn't there to partake of the sawdust bread.

Leningrad falling early would have been very bad for the Soviets.  Elements from Army Group North could have then swung down and participated in an assault on Moscow.

On a side note, I don't really believe in reincarnation, but, when I see the films of the Eastern Front stuff, I get a very uneasy feeling.  Not just any film, but, the ones showing the fighting during winter. It's like I know this, I've seen and felt this, on one side or the other, and I didn't make it.  No, I'm not drunk...yet.


I get that feeling when watching anything with piston engined fighter aircraft (WWI or WWII).
 
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