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(The Atlantic)   Football is the most dangerous thing you can let your children enjoy   (theatlantic.com) divider line 124
    More: PSA, NFL, David Remnick, Hanna Rosin, flag football, intercollegiate athletics, Mike Florio  
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3595 clicks; posted to Main » on 31 Jan 2014 at 12:46 AM (24 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-01-31 12:56:38 PM

EngineerAU: Brontes: You sound like a curler

My only ride in an ambulance was due to a curling injury to my head. So even curling isn't totally safe.


Okay, this story I have to hear.  What happened?  Did you have the traditional round of beers before the game instead of after?
 
2014-01-31 12:57:16 PM

Mralterego: God people are getting rediculous. 99.9999 percent of kids come out fine after playing football.

It's a violent sport but at children's level risk of serious long term injury is less than when their parents drive them to the game...


www.pbs.org

So, let's say 150 practices/games per year.  That's every day for five months, which is probably on the low end for competitive high school programs.  4 years is 600 practices/games, and high school football sees about 12 head injuries per 10,000, so....

You'd expect ~0.72 head injuries over a high school career.  In most cases, the symptoms fade in 2 weeks.  However, the same report noted that "In 10 to 20 percent of individuals, however, concussive symptoms persist for a number of weeks, months, or even years."  Taking the median (15%), you'd expect 1 in ~9 participants to end up with long-term symptoms from a brain injury.  That's far from "99.9999 percent".

A lot of high school programs have ~120 kids spread out over teams at different levels, which means you're probably graduating ~3 kids a year who had persistent brain injuries.  I'd bet the majority don't get treatment other than maybe taking a break for a few days.  Competitive kids are very good at hiding things like blurry vision, confusion, etc. from their coaches, parents, and friends.

You can make the 'builds character' argument for broken bones, sprains, etc.  Heck, spending a couple months in a cast might actually teach an otherwise able-bodied child something about what it's like to live with a disability, or be a person that needs help to get through their day.  Working your way back from that kind of adversity can teach important lessons as well.

But concussions?  There's now plenty of evidence that they change the brain long after the symptoms fade, and that lots of low-impact collisions can cause damage without ever presenting high-impact symptoms like dizziness, vomiting, etc.
 
2014-01-31 12:57:51 PM

Olympic Trolling Judge: EngineerAU: Brontes: You sound like a curler

My only ride in an ambulance was due to a curling injury to my head. So even curling isn't totally safe.

Okay, this story I have to hear.  What happened?  Did you have the traditional round of beers before the game instead of after?


Overzealous brooming?
 
2014-01-31 01:04:43 PM

chimp_ninja: Mralterego: God people are getting rediculous. 99.9999 percent of kids come out fine after playing football.

It's a violent sport but at children's level risk of serious long term injury is less than when their parents drive them to the game...

[www.pbs.org image 333x397]

So, let's say 150 practices/games per year.  That's every day for five months, which is probably on the low end for competitive high school programs.  4 years is 600 practices/games, and high school football sees about 12 head injuries per 10,000, so....

You'd expect ~0.72 head injuries over a high school career.  In most cases, the symptoms fade in 2 weeks.  However, the same report noted that "In 10 to 20 percent of individuals, however, concussive symptoms persist for a number of weeks, months, or even years."  Taking the median (15%), you'd expect 1 in ~9 participants to end up with long-term symptoms from a brain injury.  That's far from "99.9999 percent".

A lot of high school programs have ~120 kids spread out over teams at different levels, which means you're probably graduating ~3 kids a year who had persistent brain injuries.  I'd bet the majority don't get treatment other than maybe taking a break for a few days.  Competitive kids are very good at hiding things like blurry vision, confusion, etc. from their coaches, parents, and friends.

You can make the 'builds character' argument for broken bones, sprains, etc.  Heck, spending a couple months in a cast might actually teach an otherwise able-bodied child something about what it's like to live with a disability, or be a person that needs help to get through their day.  Working your way back from that kind of adversity can teach important lessons as well.

But concussions?  There's now plenty of evidence that they change the brain long after the symptoms fade, and that lots of low-impact collisions can cause damage without ever presenting high-impact symptoms like dizziness, vomiting, etc.


So your source is the Institute of "Medecine" ?
 
2014-01-31 01:07:09 PM

chimp_ninja: Olympic Trolling Judge: EngineerAU: Brontes: You sound like a curler

My only ride in an ambulance was due to a curling injury to my head. So even curling isn't totally safe.

Okay, this story I have to hear.  What happened?  Did you have the traditional round of beers before the game instead of after?

Overzealous brooming?


Close. I was sweeping and stepped into a wet patch of ice which caused my feet to fly out from under me. Landed on the ice with my forehead. Only needed six stitches but it did knock me out for a short while. Luckily the MRI didn't show a concussion. Lesson learned: wear grippers and indoor ice conditions aren't always great when it's 90F outside.
 
2014-01-31 01:20:18 PM

coffeeplease: So your source is the Institute of "Medecine" ?


According to PBS!   But then again, the report claims to be from the "Institute of Medicine".

From what I've learned on Fark, both sides must be given equal weight so you can teach the controversy, so we'll say it's from the Institute of Medgcine and vote Republican.
 
2014-01-31 02:34:54 PM

chimp_ninja: coffeeplease: So your source is the Institute of "Medecine" ?

According to PBS!   But then again, the report claims to be from the "Institute of Medicine".

From what I've learned on Fark, both sides must be given equal weight so you can teach the controversy, so we'll say it's from the Institute of Medgcine and vote Republican.


I read the summary, which basically says, reported concussion type injuries are up and more studies need to be done to determine their effects and how to best prevent and treat them. BECAUSE CURRENT STUDIES ARE INCONCLUSIVE.
 
2014-01-31 02:52:48 PM

coffeeplease: chimp_ninja: coffeeplease: So your source is the Institute of "Medecine" ?

According to PBS!   But then again, the report claims to be from the "Institute of Medicine".

From what I've learned on Fark, both sides must be given equal weight so you can teach the controversy, so we'll say it's from the Institute of Medgcine and vote Republican.

I read the summary, which basically says, reported concussion type injuries are up and more studies need to be done to determine their effects and how to best prevent and treat them. BECAUSE CURRENT STUDIES ARE INCONCLUSIVE.


That doesn't mean "we know nothing about concussions, so everything's 50/50 and maybe they're good for you", no matter how much you capitalize it.  It means the full impact of concussions is not understood in the long term, in part because we haven't been paying attention for very long and we can't exactly go around whooping kids in the head to make an experimental group.

They know, for example, that 10 percent (above baseline) of people who sustain sports concussions present symptoms 45 days after the incident, and there were links between concussions and outcomes like structural abnormalities in the brain that persisted one year after the incident.

What that means when the kid is 40 is open for debate, but if you're talking about problems with memory, mood (anger, depression, etc.), and cognitive performance over a month after the concussion, it's silly to dismiss that as "probably nothing, totally inconclusive".
 
2014-01-31 02:53:31 PM

coffeeplease: So your source is the Institute of "Medecine" ?


That right there is hilarious. You got funnied
 
2014-01-31 03:01:43 PM

ADHD Librarian: "...Obama now has said twice that if he had a son, he would not let that son play football. What about other people's sons? "

My son doesn't play football, my daughter does. Now I find out it is Obama's fault? I should have known!


[lh3.googleusercontent.com image 610x639]

/un-armoured wankerball
//un-armoured non-wankerball
///wankered non-armour ball?


For someone getting her crotch petted, she seems rather indifferent.
 
2014-01-31 03:08:15 PM

chimp_ninja: we can't exactly go around whooping kids in the head to make an experimental group.


Lousy Democrats.  Back in the day you could shoot people up with syphilis for science, now you can't even give 'em a simple conk on the noggin.
 
2014-01-31 06:32:04 PM

chimp_ninja: coffeeplease: chimp_ninja: coffeeplease: So your source is the Institute of "Medecine" ?

According to PBS!   But then again, the report claims to be from the "Institute of Medicine".

From what I've learned on Fark, both sides must be given equal weight so you can teach the controversy, so we'll say it's from the Institute of Medgcine and vote Republican.

I read the summary, which basically says, reported concussion type injuries are up and more studies need to be done to determine their effects and how to best prevent and treat them. BECAUSE CURRENT STUDIES ARE INCONCLUSIVE.

That doesn't mean "we know nothing about concussions, so everything's 50/50 and maybe they're good for you", no matter how much you capitalize it.  It means the full impact of concussions is not understood in the long term, in part because we haven't been paying attention for very long and we can't exactly go around whooping kids in the head to make an experimental group.

They know, for example, that 10 percent (above baseline) of people who sustain sports concussions present symptoms 45 days after the incident, and there were links between concussions and outcomes like structural abnormalities in the brain that persisted one year after the incident.

What that means when the kid is 40 is open for debate, but if you're talking about problems with memory, mood (anger, depression, etc.), and cognitive performance over a month after the concussion, it's silly to dismiss that as "probably nothing, totally inconclusive".


Maybe you need to read more slowly. I didn't say that concussions are inconsequential and the paper you are citing does say that more directed studies are needed. There is a movement afoot to discredit football based on incomplete and inconclusive studies and you have jumped into it with both feet.
 
2014-01-31 09:54:07 PM
Well, obviously this isn't true. There's church, for one.

And I don't mean playing David and Goliath in the parking lot.

Sunday School made a heathen out of me. Another unintended consequence of faulty but well intentioned  parenting, like my Mother refusing to tell me the results of my IQ test so I wouldn't get a swollen head.

It doesn't work like that, my dear lady.

Thorstein Veblen has some acute observations on the relationship between team sports and religion in his Theory of the Leisure Class. I was going to say this in the thread on the high school football coach who was fired for baptizing his players (turns out it was not an euphemism for water sports or buggery--he was literally baptizing high school boys--the bastard!)

Yes, I'd let any child of mine ride bikes without a helmet before I'd let them attend Sunday School or Church before the Age of Reason. (Which I estimate to be about forty or fifty.)
 
2014-01-31 09:55:51 PM

Pointy Tail of Satan: Football the most dangerous for kids? Ummmmmm.....no..

[blogs.babble.com image 500x399]
"Warning! Keep neutrons away from household pets!"


img.fark.net

Want.

Do you have to buy the Plutonium separately?
 
2014-01-31 10:04:06 PM
Two more observations:  first, college presidents are just retired football players (if they have any brains left from their small original stock, quarterbacks). And second, football and basket ball are not games, they are bread and circuses for the blood thirsty masses. Football for Red states, basketball for light blue and swing states.

If I have balls that need chasing, I'll get a dog. Otherwise, I'd like somebody competent to fix my hernia from bending over to tie my shoe laces. Gooooo, State Med!
 
2014-02-01 12:53:32 AM

HighZoolander: [i2.cdn.turner.com image 298x461]

/great book.


Great Frontline special, too. Watched it on the Frontline website last night after the brothers who wrote the book were on Colbert. The page for this episode of Frontline has a lot more information, including a concussion breakdown by position.

Sad stories. I mean, it's one thing to think you're going to have physical problems after playing for years in the NFL, it's kind of expected that you have taken a pounding in your career so there's going to be some consequences from that. However, it's an entirely different thing to lose your damn mind, to be unable to hold a thought, to helplessly turn into someone your family doesn't even recognize. Aikman and Young got out after too many concussions, but they worry they didn't get out soon enough. Bradshaw and Favre are concerned because they both have serious memory deficits.

I think one of the statistics from the BU brain program is that out of 195 former football-player brains they examined, only seven didn't have CTE. And it's not just professionals they've found it in, either. Two young players, 21 and 18, were found to have it at autopsy. It shows that the damage starts much, much earlier than anyone thought, and the damage cannot be seen on a CAT scan or an MRI. Definitely worst case scenario that youngsters and young men are having their brains scrambled before they are even old enough to consent to it.

What surprised me was the amount of force going on in the "pit" - the line of scrimmage. For some reason, I didn't think there were huge, concussion-inducing hits (like you see on wide receivers a lot) from the big guys seemingly just pushing each other around, but apparently the head-battering goes on there, too.

I'm going to be watching the game Sunday, but I'm also going to be thinking about this documentary and what the NFL (and the non-pros) is going to have to do to fix this situation. If it comes to minimizing contact, flag football, etc., then so be it.

/and kids should never play tackle football
 
2014-02-01 01:55:01 AM

silvervial: If it comes to minimizing contact, flag football, etc., then so be it.


There will always be pussies like you who argue "It must be perfectly safe!  Nobody is allowed to take risks!".

But nobody is going to care about some stupid pussy whining "Hey, don't do that".

Nothing is 100% safe.  The people who play football know it isn't 100% safe.  They take the risk, for various reasons.  Yes, people like Aikmen and Young took a lot of hits, and those aren't good for them. They also made millions and millions of dollars, had a blast, and got laid far more often than  you or I could ever hope for.

Nobody makes them do it, and the benefits make it worthwhile, for some people, to make that choice.  Assholes like you will tell them "You don't have a right to make that choice, it's not safe!".  Then you'll get in your car and start driving home, despite the fact that cars are far more likely to kill you than playing football is.
 
2014-02-01 03:36:53 AM
I only skimmed the article, granted, but the only danger backed by stats that I saw reported was for concussions.  And while that is a significant danger and injury, the detection of concussions has improved dramatically only recently.  Technology is catching up with the risk in regards to helmet design.  Steps, particularly at the H.S. and below levels, are being taken to reduce injuries to the head and neck through techniques in coaching (see heads-up instruction).

Football is a contact sport and there is risk.  With risk comes reward.
 
2014-02-01 05:18:05 AM

JuggleGeek: silvervial: If it comes to minimizing contact, flag football, etc., then so be it.

There will always be pussies like you who argue "It must be perfectly safe!  Nobody is allowed to take risks!".

But nobody is going to care about some stupid pussy whining "Hey, don't do that".

Nothing is 100% safe.  The people who play football know it isn't 100% safe.  They take the risk, for various reasons.  Yes, people like Aikmen and Young took a lot of hits, and those aren't good for them. They also made millions and millions of dollars, had a blast, and got laid far more often than  you or I could ever hope for.

Nobody makes them do it, and the benefits make it worthwhile, for some people, to make that choice.  Assholes like you will tell them "You don't have a right to make that choice, it's not safe!".  Then you'll get in your car and start driving home, despite the fact that cars are far more likely to kill you than playing football is.


Calling a woman a "pussy" is creative.

I don't have to worry about getting laid, being a married woman and all.

You missed the part about kids, huh? Kids have to rely on their parents to make choices for them until they are old enough, and parents shouldn't gamble their child's *brain" on a game. As far as getting killed in a car, it's not that simple. The people with CTE lose what makes them *them* - it's an entirely preventable form of Alzheimers. Transportation is necessary to get from place to place. Losing who you are, your entire self, for a game is not necessary, but well-informed adults are at least able to make that decision for themselves.

No child should play tackle football.
 
2014-02-01 05:38:44 AM

silvervial: Kids have to rely on their parents to make choices for them until they are old enough, and parents shouldn't gamble their child's *brain" on a game.


silvervial: No child should play tackle football.


Do you know the odds of a child being brain damaged from playing tackle football?
 
2014-02-01 12:18:53 PM
Why do these articles have like 3 paragraphs of fluff before they get to the farking point?
 
2014-02-01 12:41:03 PM

silvervial: Kids have to rely on their parents to make choices for them until they are old enough, and parents shouldn't gamble their child's *brain" on a game.


Considering how many parents allow their kids to play football, there are  a lot of people out there that disagree with you.

And no matter how big a biatch you are, you don't get to decide how everyone else raises their kids.

silvervial: No child should play tackle football.


Says a farking biatch who thinks she gets to control everyone else.
 
2014-02-01 02:54:58 PM
Ban football.

Or at the very least, prohibit anyone under 18 playing football.

Football sucks.
 
2014-02-01 03:30:58 PM

JuggleGeek: silvervial: Kids have to rely on their parents to make choices for them until they are old enough, and parents shouldn't gamble their child's *brain" on a game.

Considering how many parents allow their kids to play football, there are  a lot of people out there that disagree with you.

And no matter how big a biatch you are, you don't get to decide how everyone else raises their kids.

silvervial: No child should play tackle football.

Says a farking biatch who thinks she gets to control everyone else.


Okay, coach. It's clear you've got a lot invested in children playing this game. When more parents, especially mothers, find out about the damage that even low-level impacts can have on a child's brain, there's going to be a lot fewer kids showing up for practice, which is exactly what the NFL feared once the research started being done. The pipeline of childhood athletics that feeds into college and ultimately into the NFL is going to become significantly diminished. What a shame.

And me stating my opinion on Fark is a far cry from me trying to "control" everyone else, coach.

/sounds like you've had a few too many impacts to the head
 
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