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(NL Times (Netherlands))   Shutting off highway lights overnight to cut electricity bills actually costs more than it saves because contractors need to manually light up all the extra accident scenes. Who knew?   (nltimes.nl) divider line 120
    More: Obvious, electricity, street lights, accidents  
•       •       •

4955 clicks; posted to Main » on 30 Jan 2014 at 8:21 PM (30 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-01-30 09:27:18 PM
There needs to be a compromise between safety and light pollution.  The costs are minor.
 
2014-01-30 09:33:56 PM
Retrofit with Cree LED cobraheads at 100 bucks a copy which use 1/10 of the energy and for farks sake get some net enabled circuit breakers,
Square D makes whole distribution panels and sub panels.
Off the shelf and affordable

You can turn it on or off from anywhere on the planet with a smart phone.
 
2014-01-30 09:36:02 PM
medius:

miniflea: Someone knew.

Who didn't know?

This shiat is obvious. I hate driving dark stretches of highway. They pull this even in NYC.

And another thing...don't turn off your daylight running lights, you clowns! Your white/silver/black car goes into stealth mode in certain lighting conditions, especially with precipitation or fog


I'll say this as a fan of old cars (and why did "cornering lights" ever go away?) but one of the things modern car designers got right was the "you *will* have running lights when you're... you know... running." Had I a nickle for every time I've internally yelled at some numbnuts in a downpour or snowstorm who didn't bother to turn on some lights... ANY lights... Well, I'd have many nickles.

You want some real fun? Some third world cities have a convention where you don't use your headlights at all in town unless it's to flick them at pedestrians or to signal other drivers. Why the heck you would do that I don't know. The one good thing I can say in their defense is that every city where I've seen that tends to paint the curbs with alternating black-and-white checks, which makes it far easier to see the edge of the road than say, a constant yellow or white stripe.
 
2014-01-30 09:40:26 PM

BummerDuck: I guess the simple answer, don't drive in the dark if you can't handle it, didn't occur to all the idiots? oh, right, of course not.


Of course it did.  Do you think lighted roads came before vehicles?  They were added to assist people who couldn't drive in the dark - the same as most inventions.  A technology was created to give opportunity to those who previously did not have it.

If the final answer to "OH YOU CAN'T DO THAT" was "THEN DON'T", the world would pretty much suck.  Well, suck more.
 
2014-01-30 09:41:30 PM
ladyfortuna:

Gulper Eel: That's what the white line on the side of the road is for. It's called a FOG LINE, chrissakes.

I learned something new today! Yaaaay.

Don't get me started on the traffic lights that turn red at empty intersections with nobody around in a two-mile radius.

I once watched a cop sit at a red light (T-intersection, probably 3 AM) for almost five minutes because I guess he was trying to be a good example to us, as we were right behind him. Finally he got fed up and made his turn. Apparently that one didn't have a sensor at the time on the side road. I'm so glad I found out about the triggers for those things, through Fark IIRC, because where I live now, you basically have to trip the damn things on purpose to have any hope of getting through some of the traffic lights.


There's an odd little two-step waltz that all 4:00am drivers know... You pull up to the sensor... you pull back... you pull up to the sensor, you wait.
 
2014-01-30 09:42:38 PM

TheOther: JohnnyC: We waste an enormous amount of money on streetlights. I really dislike light pollution in general...

Glad to see at least one country moving in the right direction on that.

Yeah...can't see the stars at noon because of the stoopid sun!


The Sun is a star stoopid!
 
2014-01-30 09:44:32 PM

BummerDuck: I guess the simple answer, don't drive in the dark if you can't handle it, didn't occur to all the idiots? oh, right, of course not.

Just think of all the people that live far away from lighted roads, and somehow, magically, make it to their destinations without running into a damn thing. Well, except for deer and other suicidal wildlife.


Funny thing about that, when I moved to the sticks, my insurance went UP about 20% which was unexpected. When I asked someone from State Farm about it, she replied that it's because the accidents tend to be fatal out here.
 
2014-01-30 09:48:51 PM

Fano: Question for Cecil Adams: Why do we never see people changing out the lightbulbs? I'm sure it doesn't take long, but there are lots of lights, so you should expect to see a crew out somewhere at some time. Just like you never saw people collecting money from payphones.


I've never seen a lightbulb changed either, but urban living caused me to see money collected from payphones, and parking meters.
And once, just once, I drove behind a truck with an enormous, fat, spinning paint-roller type thing cleaning the carbon off the curved ceiling of the tunnel I was in. Was at 3am on a Monday, but because of a blues jam I had driven thru that tunnel at 3am for 7yrs before I saw that.

/csb/s
 
2014-01-30 09:49:08 PM

netcentric: Yeah really.     We don't have streetlights here in the country.    I guess if you don't have them you just get used to it.


When the only thing for 50 miles is your 1975 Ford Truck and a bunch of cows who appear nervous whenever you come near - street lights don't make a lot of sense.  But most country roads do have lights at interceptions.  And street lights in higher volume areas do lower the risk of accidents between 10 and 15% depending on the study.

/but its fark so everyone has a GED in traffic management
 
2014-01-30 09:53:21 PM

desertfool: LEAN at its best. "We can save X by doing Y!!!"

Later, you discover "Y" costs 5 times as much.


But, if a private company can gouge the public for Y, then it is a great idea.
 
2014-01-30 09:55:05 PM
Who knew that accidents will happen?

static.guim.co.uk

I don't want to hear it
'Cause I know what I've done
 
2014-01-30 10:03:49 PM

ladyfortuna: I once watched a cop sit at a red light (T-intersection, probably 3 AM) for almost five minutes because I guess he was trying to be a good example to us, as we were right behind him. Finally he got fed up and made his turn. Apparently that one didn't have a sensor at the time on the side road. I'm so glad I found out about the triggers for those things, through Fark IIRC, because where I live now, you basically have to trip the damn things on purpose to have any hope of getting through some of the traffic lights.


Trigger? As in the wire loop under the pavement?
 
2014-01-30 10:07:05 PM

desertfool: LEAN at its best. "We can save X by doing Y!!!"

Later, you discover "Y" costs 5 times as much.


"Work smarter, not harder."

Which turns into

"Burn your employees out by making them do the work of 2 or 3 people and then use the savings to hire completely new people when they get fed up and quit, and you even get to start them out at base salary. It's win-freakin'-win, baby."
 
2014-01-30 10:08:11 PM
I'm confused, aren't streetlights for the nighttime? I couldn't see them being of much use during the daytime.
 
2014-01-30 10:16:45 PM

fusillade762: [www.technorise.co.in image 360x360]

Problem solved.


Most of the people that think shutting off highway lights cuz big gubmint spending bad are the same people that rail against alternative energy development.
 
2014-01-30 10:20:03 PM

Rivetman1.0: Retrofit with Cree LED cobraheads at 100 bucks a copy which use 1/10 of the energy and for farks sake get some net enabled circuit breakers,
Square D makes whole distribution panels and sub panels.
Off the shelf and affordable

You can turn it on or off from anywhere on the planet with a smart phone.


Yeah, but good luck finding a suitable model for your application on their website.  I swear Schneider Electric wants to drive customers away by making the worst possible website.  Wanna find a data sheet for this breaker that you're holding in your hand?  Well punch that model number in and find..... no matching part found.
 
2014-01-30 10:27:20 PM

dkulprit: I'm confused, aren't streetlights for the nighttime? I couldn't see them being of much use during the daytime.


The headline does sort of infer that, but it just means the lights never turn on.  There's plenty of abandoned infrastructure over the course of human history.  The most noticeable nationwide over recent years being indoor malls and non-Super Wally Worlds.
 
2014-01-30 10:29:17 PM

Oldiron_79: Well at least they have windmills to keep them cool.


i.imgur.com
 
2014-01-30 10:29:33 PM
I've got an idea - why don't they put lights on the front of every car to illuminate the way? That way there would be no need for street lights, *and* as a bonus the car owners pay for the electricity and the bulbs, instead of the government!!
 
2014-01-30 10:50:02 PM
So, if I'm reading TFA right, the problem isn't that there are more accidents, but that the unions made them hire special contractors who charge hefty fees to turn some farking lights on at the accident scenes that happen anyway.

So, the cleanup crew that gets sent out to the accident scene needs light to do their work.  So they have to call the light turner oners, who come out and turn the lights on.  But having the lights always be on would be cheaper than paying the light turner oner.

And apparently nobody has considered allowing the cleanup crews to turn the lights on themselves?  I guess because the security to prevent members of the general public from flicking a light switch on and off rapidly (oh, ask your dad about how much more expensive that is) is too complicated and you have to be properly trained in the toggle mechanism they use?

It's kind of amazing how overcomplicated the act of turning lights on has become.
 
2014-01-30 10:55:36 PM

12349876: Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: Only morons need streetlights at night, and then only in residential areas.

Morons, and people who don't want their cars run into by morons.  So, everyone.


Depending on where you are, you might have to worry about wild animals or livestock wandering out onto the road you're driving 85mph on.  That's not a fun situation, and lighting helps avoid it.
 
2014-01-30 10:58:46 PM

Gyrfalcon: I love the consequences of unintended consequences.


Fight Club insurance scene.
 
2014-01-30 11:02:20 PM
Ever get the feeing that most of this country is just in the kitchen boiling some Ramen with an LED light and hoping the landlord knocking can't tell they're home while they rifle the cushions for bus fare?
 
2014-01-30 11:10:57 PM

Mikey1969: Fano: Question for Cecil Adams: Why do we never see people changing out the lightbulbs? I'm sure it doesn't take long, but there are lots of lights, so you should expect to see a crew out somewhere at some time. Just like you never saw people collecting money from payphones.

Because modern bulbs last longer?

Also, the newer ones are easier to change, so it's relatively quick. The tall tower style on the freeway with 5 lights in a cluster... They have those on a pulley system, they drive up, open the hatch, lower the lights and change them, no need for a truck and a cherry picker and traffic barricades.


Actually the modern bulbs have been cost reduced to the point where they tend to fail rather predictably around the end of rated life. Both Westinghouse and GE had a problem in the late 1960s with their Bonus Line and Lifeguard series extended life mercury vapor lamps. It turned out that the lamps were far outlasting their design life, with many of them lasting decades. A lamp that never fails is not good for a business selling lamps. They reformulated the electrodes to reduce the lifespan but even so a good US-made mercury lamp would last for years. Most of the modern HPS lamps are made in china.

Current crops of LED streetlights are very well made to justify the high cost. I suspect eventually manufactures will fine tune the process so they last long enough but not too long. Since there is no "bulb" to speak of, you would normally replace the entire luminaire when it fails.
 
2014-01-30 11:11:17 PM

netcentric: Hoboclown: How much does it cost to post billboards that read "Turn on Your Goddamn Headlights at Night"


Yeah really.     We don't have streetlights here in the country.    I guess if you don't have them you just get used to it.

Start car.   It's an older one, so turn on lights.   Drive to Uncle Pete's house.

...not hard


The country is just a little different than the city, isn't it?

Less traffic.
Less pedestrians.
Less debris on the road.

So of course a one size fits all approach is the best.

/even in rural areas, if you're on the interstate, there are light s at the on ramps and off ramps.
//Uncle Pete might have even noticed this himself
 
2014-01-30 11:14:49 PM
If you aren't going to turn those lights on, then there isn't any point in installing them in the first place.  That should save a few million.

And who cares about the idiots who have wrecks?  Do people who have wrecks vote?  Do they have a lobby?  Do they hand bags of money to politicians?  Is there any reason for politicians to give a fark about those people?
 
2014-01-30 11:15:32 PM

ladyfortuna: Gulper Eel:  That's what the white line on the side of the road is for. It's called a FOG LINE, chrissakes.

I learned something new today! Yaaaay.

Don't get me started on the traffic lights that turn red at empty intersections with nobody around in a two-mile radius.

I once watched a cop sit at a red light (T-intersection, probably 3 AM) for almost five minutes because I guess he was trying to be a good example to us, as we were right behind him. Finally he got fed up and made his turn. Apparently that one didn't have a sensor at the time on the side road. I'm so glad I found out about the triggers for those things, through Fark IIRC, because where I live now, you basically have to trip the damn things on purpose to have any hope of getting through some of the traffic lights.


The sensors are inductive loops, sometimes they fail to calibrate properly and won't detect a car that's sitting over the loop. Other times they're just laid out such that your car has to be in just the right spot.
 
2014-01-30 11:17:07 PM

ladyfortuna: Gulper Eel:  That's what the white line on the side of the road is for. It's called a FOG LINE, chrissakes.

I learned something new today! Yaaaay.

Don't get me started on the traffic lights that turn red at empty intersections with nobody around in a two-mile radius.

I once watched a cop sit at a red light (T-intersection, probably 3 AM) for almost five minutes because I guess he was trying to be a good example to us, as we were right behind him. Finally he got fed up and made his turn. Apparently that one didn't have a sensor at the time on the side road. I'm so glad I found out about the triggers for those things, through Fark IIRC, because where I live now, you basically have to trip the damn things on purpose to have any hope of getting through some of the traffic lights.


Only some lights have sensors, so roaming all over the lane sometimes does you no good.

CSB: My Government teacher u high school ran a red light at 2 am when the road was deserted because he successfully argued in court that it is ludicrous to expect people to camp at intersections with no traffic in the middle of the night. The cop confirmed that he sat there for at least 2 full minutes before proceeding. It's nice when the system works and common sense can prevail. It's the whole reason the guy used it as an example in class.
 
2014-01-30 11:21:22 PM

JuggleGeek: Is there any reason for politicians to give a fark about those people?


Oh, they don't.  At all.

graphics8.nytimes.com
 
2014-01-30 11:21:29 PM

rev. dave: There needs to be a compromise between safety and light pollution.  The costs are minor.


With a working Observatory in town, Flagstaff, AZ has the 3rd strongest light pollution regulations in the world, and it still works well. It was interesting to look at commercial blueprints and see all of the light restrictions and requirements. Part of the solution is the orange tinted lights that make everything look black and white.
 
2014-01-30 11:23:08 PM

balisane: Solution:

1) Install inexpensive downward deflectors on all the streetlights.

2) Replace bulbs with lower-wattage models, since less of the light will be wasted in scatter.

3) Done.

http://www.darksky.org


Most new roadway lighting is with full cutoff fixtures, that is no light above 90 degrees. The disadvantage of this is that you need a lot more lights spaced closely together to get even lighting, otherwise you end up with bright pools of light with large stretches of darkness.

I agree that many streetlights are far brighter than necessary which leads to a lot of glare in addition to light pollution and energy waste. Unfortunately it's not as simple as just installing lower wattage luminaires. There are layers of burocracy covering required light levels in different types of roads. If someone involved in an accident discovers that the lighting in the area doesn't comply with the law, they can sue. This is 'Murica we're talking about here.
 
2014-01-30 11:25:35 PM

Fano: Question for Cecil Adams: Why do we never see people changing out the lightbulbs? I'm sure it doesn't take long, but there are lots of lights, so you should expect to see a crew out somewhere at some time. Just like you never saw people collecting money from payphones.


You never see them?

You're probably not paying attention.  I used to see them all the time.  Now, I drive a lot less than I used to, but I still see the occasional bulb crew.
 
2014-01-30 11:26:11 PM
1. Turn off lights at night
2. Listen for accidents
3. Harvest organs
4. Profit
 
2014-01-30 11:26:13 PM

James10952001: Mikey1969: Fano: Question for Cecil Adams: Why do we never see people changing out the lightbulbs? I'm sure it doesn't take long, but there are lots of lights, so you should expect to see a crew out somewhere at some time. Just like you never saw people collecting money from payphones.

Because modern bulbs last longer?

Also, the newer ones are easier to change, so it's relatively quick. The tall tower style on the freeway with 5 lights in a cluster... They have those on a pulley system, they drive up, open the hatch, lower the lights and change them, no need for a truck and a cherry picker and traffic barricades.

Actually the modern bulbs have been cost reduced to the point where they tend to fail rather predictably around the end of rated life. Both Westinghouse and GE had a problem in the late 1960s with their Bonus Line and Lifeguard series extended life mercury vapor lamps. It turned out that the lamps were far outlasting their design life, with many of them lasting decades. A lamp that never fails is not good for a business selling lamps. They reformulated the electrodes to reduce the lifespan but even so a good US-made mercury lamp would last for years. Most of the modern HPS lamps are made in china.

Current crops of LED streetlights are very well made to justify the high cost. I suspect eventually manufactures will fine tune the process so they last long enough but not too long. Since there is no "bulb" to speak of, you would normally replace the entire luminaire when it fails.


Yeah, I figured that's why an LED for your home can cost $60,and I can't really blame them. You can't have a successful business if your product is cheap and lasts forever. Only problem with LEDs in general is that they're too farking bright. I already have light sensitive eyes, and it's gotten worse in the last few months.

It's not the streetlights that kill me though, it's headlights in my mirror and those goddam Super bright LED screens everyone puts out in front of their business, especially when the screen suddenly flashes all white.
 
2014-01-30 11:42:12 PM

lack of warmth: Also, installing more lighting around all places at night in a crime busy city is helpful in somewhat deterring crime. It doesn't really stop it, but at least you can watch the crooks killing someone.


I've read that lighting can also increase crime in places like parking lots and schools because the crooks can see.


James10952001: I agree that many streetlights are far brighter than necessary which leads to a lot of glare in addition to light pollution and energy waste.


Agreed.  It would be nice if streetlights would slowly start to dim after sunset.  I imagine that with LED units, you could set it to start turning off a percentage of the bulbs at defined intervals.  By 10PM, you could be down to 33% strength.


I live near a "night skies" town with an observatory not far away.  They have very little street lighting.  But they compensate somewhat by having a lot more reflectors on the road.  They also drop the speed limit by 5 or 10 MPH at night.

While the reflectors are an improvement, I kinda wish that they'd use in-road lighting for curves, kinda what you see on an airport runway but smaller in scale.  Something dim enough not to ruin your night vision but bright enough that you can see it in poor weather at night.
 
2014-01-30 11:51:13 PM

Mikey1969: rev. dave: There needs to be a compromise between safety and light pollution.  The costs are minor.

With a working Observatory in town, Flagstaff, AZ has the 3rd strongest light pollution regulations in the world, and it still works well. It was interesting to look at commercial blueprints and see all of the light restrictions and requirements. Part of the solution is the orange tinted lights that make everything look black and white.


Flagstaff is weirdly dark.

And with that light color, they might as well just turn it off.  I think they're using LPS, and it's the worst light available.  One of the reasons I miss mercury vapor and really look forward to LED, because the HPS lights most commonly used today have horrific color rendition.
 
2014-01-31 12:00:49 AM

Enigmamf: big pig peaches: I don't know how things work over in Europe, but in the US construction crews and emergency workers use extra utility lighting regardless of the street lights.

I think the headline is implying that the cost of the energy used by the investigation scene lighting outweighs the cost of the energy of the highway lights, because there are so many more accidents than before.


except emergency vehicles have their own scene lights, so it's bullshiat

chicagoareafire.com
 
2014-01-31 12:08:05 AM
see really the issue here is that the government is putting its teat in the mouth of these "contractors" in the first place

if the free market has interests in clearing these wrecks, it will find a way to do so. if it doesn't, then it doesn't need to be done in the first place. of course you dims love to frame it as throwing good money after bad when it is really worse money after bad
 
2014-01-31 12:21:21 AM
Here in San Diego, they did that and four men died that night on the highway.

Okay, well, it was more like a light on the highway near an exit went out, a guy (on his birthday) broke down at 3:00AM, was walking on the shoulder to the next exit, got hit and killed by a rich chick (no penalty to her).

Luckily, she drove home and had her lawyer father wait until she sobered up until they called the cops.  Much better when they can't get a blood test done.

But my point, highways without lights are deadly.
 
2014-01-31 12:23:03 AM

Tourney3p0: BummerDuck: I guess the simple answer, don't drive in the dark if you can't handle it, didn't occur to all the idiots? oh, right, of course not.

Of course it did.  Do you think lighted roads came before vehicles?  They were added to assist people who couldn't drive in the dark - the same as most inventions.  A technology was created to give opportunity to those who previously did not have it.

If the final answer to "OH YOU CAN'T DO THAT" was "THEN DON'T", the world would pretty much suck.  Well, suck more.


Little extreme in your response. If you can't drive for crap with just headlights, that is not the same as inventing new things or pushing yourself to something new. Unless that something new is a car wreck.

I'll put forth that if you can't drive with only headlights, then you should not drive at night. I am sure any sane person would agree. Lights burn out, power goes down. I would rather not have someone driving around that can't cope with that sudden change.
 
2014-01-31 12:25:01 AM

BummerDuck: I'll put forth that if you can't drive with only headlights, then you should not drive at night. I am sure any sane person would agree. Lights burn out, power goes down. I would rather not have someone driving around that can't cope with that sudden change.


I'll put forth that everybody is different and reactions to events are not the same.

The benefit of the highway lights are that people who are not very responsive to unexpected stimuli have more change to react by the highway light illuminating their way.

I know you'd rather not have them driving but this is reality.  We cater to the lowest common denominator.  Yes, this didn't happen in US, but it's a human condition; not just limited to the United States.
 
2014-01-31 12:46:25 AM

DarkVader: Mikey1969: rev. dave: There needs to be a compromise between safety and light pollution.  The costs are minor.

With a working Observatory in town, Flagstaff, AZ has the 3rd strongest light pollution regulations in the world, and it still works well. It was interesting to look at commercial blueprints and see all of the light restrictions and requirements. Part of the solution is the orange tinted lights that make everything look black and white.

Flagstaff is weirdly dark.

And with that light color, they might as well just turn it off.  I think they're using LPS, and it's the worst light available.  One of the reasons I miss mercury vapor and really look forward to LED, because the HPS lights most commonly used today have horrific color rendition.


Well, that's why it's dark. Lowell Observatory is still getting used, although not as much.

The streetlights work, though. You get used to the color thing, and it's bright enough to see as you go through the parking lot of the grocery store, as well as noticing the drunk Navajo approaching your open Jeep with a knife in his hand(weird story that happened one night). They work well, and are probably still a better solution than LEDs, since in my experience you have to do a lot of extra stuff to make the things focus light decently at all, and the floodlights are just too washed out, so some kind of focus is really needed...

LEDs or lot, Flag has a good approach and they found a good middle ground.
 
2014-01-31 01:18:44 AM
Weed is totally legal there man. Like why would there be accidents? Weed makes you a safer like driver.
 
2014-01-31 01:30:04 AM

netcentric: Hoboclown: How much does it cost to post billboards that read "Turn on Your Goddamn Headlights at Night"


Yeah really.     We don't have streetlights here in the country.    I guess if you don't have them you just get used to it.

Start car.   It's an older one, so turn on lights.   Drive to Uncle Pete's house.

...not hard


Is that the only place you drive to?
 
2014-01-31 01:31:44 AM

mikaloyd: Weed is totally legal there man. Like why would there be accidents? Weed makes you a safer like driver.


www.dobryj-pasechnik.ru

"Look over there, honey; an idiot!"

 
2014-01-31 01:36:16 AM
Streetlights? Lots of streetlights here in New Mexico...or are they?


I've made all night runs through the desert when the Moon was so bright I turned off my headlights for a few miles. No streetlights out there :)

/I was younger
//with better eyesight
///slashies
 
2014-01-31 03:39:36 AM
The article doesnt say anything at all about any of that shiat. It says that contractors are ripping off the system by charging huge amounts for lighting work-sites, and that the system is buying a unit that allows them to manually turn on the lights for specific work-sites from the central control, thereby saving millions.

Seems pretty sensible to me.
 
2014-01-31 04:57:42 AM

dkulprit: I'm confused, aren't streetlights for the nighttime? I couldn't see them being of much use during the daytime.


When your day only has eight hours of natural sunlight...
 
2014-01-31 05:13:53 AM

sunderland56: I've got an idea - why don't they put lights on the front of every car to illuminate the way? That way there would be no need for street lights, *and* as a bonus the car owners pay for the electricity and the bulbs, instead of the government!!


And the workers repairing/improving the roads at night can work by the light of passing motorists to save even more money!
 
2014-01-31 05:17:14 AM

Oldiron_79: Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: Only morons need streetlights at night, and then only in residential areas.

Well with no natural predators to thin the herd we like 90% morans now.


The moron is it's own natural predator. That's what the Darwin Award is all about.
 
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