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(Mother Jones)   How Democrats learned to stop worrying and love the bomb that is Citizens United   (motherjones.com) divider line 48
    More: Interesting, Citizens United, Democrats, humans, President Obama, Restore Our Future, political action committees, David Brock, League of Conservation Voters  
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1038 clicks; posted to Politics » on 30 Jan 2014 at 10:28 AM (47 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



48 Comments   (+0 »)
   
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest
 
2014-01-30 10:30:45 AM  
If you can't change the rules you might as well play by them.
 
2014-01-30 10:31:31 AM  
Acting within the law to maximize one's own benefit is not tacit agreement with that law.   If murder was legal, I'd shoot people to protect myself, but I wouldn't view that as an ideal state.
 
2014-01-30 10:34:02 AM  
FTFA: "If Democrats hate Citizens United on paper, they love it in practice."

We hate it.

On paper.... In practice..... We hate it.

But, we hate being handicapped in an election even more..... Soooooo......
 
2014-01-30 10:38:28 AM  
I don't love it, I still hate it.  But then again, I'm a liberal, not a Democrat.
 
2014-01-30 10:41:40 AM  
Oh my God, you mean that they used this tool while it was available? I'm shocked! Shocked, I tell you!
 
2014-01-30 10:42:23 AM  

ikanreed: Acting within the law to maximize one's own benefit is not tacit agreement with that law.   If murder was legal, I'd shoot people to protect myself, but I wouldn't view that as an ideal state.


Psst- Just call it Stand Your Ground and move to Florida
 
2014-01-30 10:46:22 AM  
I completely agree with the condemnation of how big moneyed interests have captured the political process and turned all levels of government into their lackeys. I also sadly agree that you need to play with the system you have rather than the system you want. Anybody remember Buddy Roemer? Of course you don't. He ran for President on a platform opposing capital rule. He refused to take money from those interest groups and they, in turn, denied him any opportunity to get time in front of the voters. That killed his campaign before it even started.
 
2014-01-30 10:47:14 AM  

lennavan: I don't love it, I still hate it.  But then again, I'm a liberal, not a Democrat.


I'm sorry, but using loaded terms like "liberal" and then pretending that separates you from others who also adopt that label doesn't help.  What kind of liberal are you such that you're distinguished here?  Modernist liberal?  Jeffersonian liberal?  Revolutionary liberal? Communist calling yourself liberal?
 
2014-01-30 10:49:58 AM  
It's an affront to democracy and does nothing more than legalize open corruption.

But what are Democrats supposed to do?  Sit back and just let the Koch Brothers brazenly buy the government?  These are the rules in John Roberts' America, so until someone puts a stop to it, this is how you play the game.
 
2014-01-30 10:52:57 AM  

crab66: If you can't change the rules you might as well play by them.


That's what Democrats fail to understand: By taking "the high road" and not using all the tools in the arsenal, they make what should be easy wins into difficult, destructive battles.
 
2014-01-30 11:01:11 AM  
"Wait!  We forgot that we're rich, too!"
 
2014-01-30 11:01:45 AM  
But Obama and his Democratic allies seem to want it both ways: condemning Citizens United but taking full advantage of what it has wrought.

Author is an idiot.
 
2014-01-30 11:25:44 AM  

Mentat: It's an affront to democracy and does nothing more than legalize open corruption.

But what are Democrats supposed to do?  Sit back and just let the Koch Brothers brazenly buy the government?  These are the rules in John Roberts' America, so until someone puts a stop to it, this is how you play the game.


Yup, this is the way campaigning works now. It sucks, but it's absurd to get huffy with the side that fought against it just because they're not needlessly handicapping themselves out of principle.
 
2014-01-30 11:27:32 AM  
They got a sugar daddy?
 
2014-01-30 11:28:06 AM  
When you can take advantage yourselves whist setting the IRS at the throats of your opponents who try it, what's not to love?
 
x23
2014-01-30 11:35:19 AM  
i'll admit i loved it when Colbert did his whole big SuperPAC deal pointing out how clearly prone to abuse it is.

doesn't mean i agree with it... but no sense hobbling yourself when others will clearly use it to their advantage against you.

publicly funded elections would be the ideal state.
 
2014-01-30 11:35:25 AM  

jjorsett: When you can take advantage yourselves whist setting the IRS at the throats of your opponents who try it, what's not to love?


TIL that not allowing people to engage in express political advocacy completely tax-free is the exact same thing as mass murder.
 
2014-01-30 11:37:20 AM  
I wouldn't have a problem with it.  Of course I'd love if Republicans hated it when Democrats have the likes of Buffett giving millions to their campaigns.
 
2014-01-30 11:51:50 AM  

Leishu: You do realize that that Liberal and Democrat don't mean anywhere near the same thing, right?


You realize that "liberal" doesn't have a specific meaning, right?  That it has become a generalized and meaningless term?  I asked for clarification, because "I'm a liberal" tells me as much about your political beliefs as "I'm a cat person" does.
 
2014-01-30 11:52:20 AM  

ikanreed: lennavan: I don't love it, I still hate it.  But then again, I'm a liberal, not a Democrat.

I'm sorry, but using loaded terms like "liberal" and then pretending that separates you from others who also adopt that label doesn't help.  What kind of liberal are you such that you're distinguished here?  Modernist liberal?  Jeffersonian liberal?  Revolutionary liberal? Communist calling yourself liberal?


I'm a classical liberal.  That means I like to have my gay atheist abortion welfare money while listening to Beethoven.

/it's really a good thing I don't take this act on the road...
 
2014-01-30 11:55:21 AM  

Pincy: But Obama and his Democratic allies seem to want it both ways: condemning Citizens United but taking full advantage of what it has wrought.

Author is an idiot.


Author sounds like he's pissed the Democrats are playing the Republican's game by their own rules.

*shrug*
 
2014-01-30 11:57:06 AM  

Serious Black: jjorsett: When you can take advantage yourselves whist setting the IRS at the throats of your opponents who try it, what's not to love?

TIL that not allowing people to engage in express political advocacy completely tax-free is the exact same thing as mass murder.


As with so many Fark discussions with defenders of the President, the reasoning instantly become circular: we're screwing with Tea Party rights because Tea party rights should be screwed with.
 
2014-01-30 11:57:21 AM  

lennavan: But then again, I'm a liberal, not a Democrat.

Fark Independent

2TM: Electric Boogaloo
 
2014-01-30 12:01:35 PM  

jjorsett: When you can take advantage yourselves whist setting the IRS at the throats of your opponents who try it, lie at will and still be taken seriously, what's not to love?


fixed that to reflect your slogan
 
2014-01-30 12:06:18 PM  

jjorsett: Serious Black: jjorsett: When you can take advantage yourselves whist setting the IRS at the throats of your opponents who try it, what's not to love?

TIL that not allowing people to engage in express political advocacy completely tax-free is the exact same thing as mass murder.

As with so many Fark discussions with defenders of the President, the reasoning instantly become circular: we're screwing with Tea Party rights because Tea party rights should be screwed with.


I would have to go into the archives to find it, but I'm positive that when this stuff first hit the news, my response was that all organizations trying to claim 501(c)(4) status to hide donor lists and operate tax-free should be subject to scrutiny. The IRS simply doesn't have the money to do that in a complete manner (and really never has), so they took shortcuts to make the process easier. You want them to stop using BOLO lists and taking other shortcuts? Give them more money so they can enforce the law in a fair manner that respects everyone's rights and stop these shadow groups from violating the law.
 
2014-01-30 12:06:35 PM  

Local Man: Fark Independent 2TM: Electric Boogaloo


It makes it hard to be someone who legimately understood they were voting for a lesser of two evils in recent elections, when people come in and start yelling about how there's no true Scotsmen, and they'd know because they don't put sugar on their oatmeal.

//it's hard being a extropian.
 
2014-01-30 12:12:14 PM  

lennavan: I don't love it, I still hate it.  But then again, I'm a liberal, not a Democrat.



This.  Our corrupt campaign finance / lobbying system is not a partisan issue.  It is bad for everyone, except maybe the cottage industry of electioneering/lobbying organizations that it supports.

And citizens united made it much, much worse.
 
2014-01-30 12:15:21 PM  

ikanreed: It makes it hard to be someone who legimately understood they were voting for a lesser of two evils in recent elections


You thought Obama was a lesser evil?  Have you been asleep for the last 5 years or are you just stupid?
 
2014-01-30 12:17:40 PM  

lennavan: You thought Obama was a lesser evil? Have you been asleep for the last 5 years or are you just stupid?


Oh yes, tell me more about how cutting taxes on the rich and bombing Iran were less evil than Obama, Mr. I-promise-I'm-a-liberal.
 
2014-01-30 12:31:40 PM  
I think that entire article was retarded. This quote definitively answers all the rhetorical bullshiat questions the author asked:

"We want a world without super-PACs. We also want a world without nuclear weapons," says Priorities spokesman Peter Kauffmann. "But if Mr. Khrushchev's got nukes, President Kennedy has to have them as well."

Well, farking duh. To add another shiatty metaphor - you don't bring a knife to a gun fight.
 
2014-01-30 12:36:08 PM  

TwistedFark: Well, farking duh. To add another shiatty metaphor - you don't bring a knife to a gun fight.


No, see, you didn't want a gun-fight, so obviously shooting the people shooting you is wrong.
 
2014-01-30 12:37:22 PM  

ikanreed: lennavan: You thought Obama was a lesser evil? Have you been asleep for the last 5 years or are you just stupid?

Oh yes, tell me more about how cutting taxes on the rich and bombing Iran were less evil than Obama, Mr. I-promise-I'm-a-liberal.


I'd rather explain to you why you're a complete idiot for thinking the right way to summarize the first 4 years of Obama's presidency is "evil."
 
2014-01-30 12:41:51 PM  

lennavan: ikanreed: lennavan: You thought Obama was a lesser evil? Have you been asleep for the last 5 years or are you just stupid?

Oh yes, tell me more about how cutting taxes on the rich and bombing Iran were less evil than Obama, Mr. I-promise-I'm-a-liberal.

I'd rather explain to you why you're a complete idiot for thinking the right way to summarize the first 4 years of Obama's presidency is "evil."


Look, the U.S. is a  moderately selfish corporatist evil empire.  Our choices are embrace evil, mitigate evil, or abandon our position of socioeconomic dominance, and the latter doesn't get much play on the national stage.
 
2014-01-30 01:17:12 PM  

ikanreed: Hey guys, check out this nonsense talking point I have!


Neat!
 
2014-01-30 01:18:43 PM  

Sammichless: FTFA: "If Democrats hate Citizens United on paper, they love it in practice."

We hate it.

On paper.... In practice..... We hate it.

But, we hate being handicapped in an election even more..... Soooooo......


So you have to use the rules you oppose to your advantage to win to remove the advantage that you now have with the rule that you oppose? yeah... i'll be impressed if they do that and actually patch up the problem.
 
2014-01-30 01:27:44 PM  

lennavan: ikanreed: Hey guys, check out this nonsense talking point I have!

Neat!


Hey, look guys, lennavan likes to just say "you're wrong" in numerous different ways without ever justifying anything he says.

Yeah, that's 3 threads where I got nothing out of your "debate" with me, but that you like being wrong in non-specific ways.  I'm gonna have to go with ignore.
 
2014-01-30 01:32:11 PM  

ikanreed: lennavan: ikanreed: Hey guys, check out this nonsense talking point I have!

Neat!

Hey, look guys, lennavan likes to just say "you're wrong" in numerous different ways without ever justifying anything he says.

Yeah, that's 3 threads where I got nothing out of your "debate" with me, but that you like being wrong in non-specific ways.  I'm gonna have to go with ignore.


In my defense, your comment of "corporations do bad stuff, therefore Obama is evil" really only deserved mockery.
 
2014-01-30 01:32:23 PM  

ikanreed: Acting within the law to maximize one's own benefit is not tacit agreement with that law.


It's ok for anarchists to use government roads again!
 
2014-01-30 01:35:59 PM  
As much as I would like to be glad about CU actually helping Democrats, I can't be.  No matter if it ends up helping my side or not, it is horribly corrupting.  I think we had quite enough corruption before CU, thank you much.
 
2014-01-30 01:37:00 PM  

jigger: It's ok for anarchists to use government roads again!


Did someone really think that anarchists shouldn't use government roads?  I mean, I think libertarians shouldn't, but I also think they should stop breathing.
 
2014-01-30 01:56:43 PM  
Huh. That's interesting. Never had a comment deleted then quoted and referenced like that before.
 
2014-01-30 03:25:52 PM  

ikanreed: Acting within the law to maximize one's own benefit is not tacit agreement with that law.   If murder was legal, I'd shoot people to protect myself get to the front of the line at Chipotle faster, but I wouldn't view that as an ideal state.


FTFM
 
2014-01-30 03:42:12 PM  

Sammichless: FTFA: "If Democrats hate Citizens United on paper, they love it in practice."

We hate it.

On paper.... In practice..... We hate it.

But, we hate being handicapped in an election even more..... Soooooo......


Yep. Refusing to roll over and play dead is not at all the same thing liking it.
 
2014-01-30 04:23:25 PM  

Serious Black: jjorsett: Serious Black: jjorsett: When you can take advantage yourselves whist setting the IRS at the throats of your opponents who try it, what's not to love?

TIL that not allowing people to engage in express political advocacy completely tax-free is the exact same thing as mass murder.

As with so many Fark discussions with defenders of the President, the reasoning instantly become circular: we're screwing with Tea Party rights because Tea party rights should be screwed with.

I would have to go into the archives to find it, but I'm positive that when this stuff first hit the news, my response was that all organizations trying to claim 501(c)(4) status to hide donor lists and operate tax-free should be subject to scrutiny. The IRS simply doesn't have the money to do that in a complete manner (and really never has), so they took shortcuts to make the process easier. You want them to stop using BOLO lists and taking other shortcuts? Give them more money so they can enforce the law in a fair manner that respects everyone's rights and stop these shadow groups from violating the law.


And yet somehow they scraped together the funding to string out the approval process for years for, ahem, certain groups in order to review things like: "a list of all issues that are important to your organization. Indicate your position regarding each issue," "copies of the agendas and minutes of your Board meetings and, if applicable, membership meetings, including a description of legislative and electoral issues discussed, and whether candidates for political office were invited to address the meeting," "the derivation of your organization's name," "copies of all your current web pages, including your Blog posts ... copies of all of your newsletters, bulletins, flyers, newsletters or any other media or literature you have disseminated to your members or others ... copies of stories and articles that have been published about you," "names of the donors, contributors, and grantors. ... The amounts of each of the donations, contributions, and grants and the dates you received them".

Does that sound like an organization that can't provide adequate scrutiny because of a skimpy budget? Given that Tea Party group approvals weren't granted or denied and just stayed in the 'pending' category, it sounds more like an outfit that's been instructed to drag out the approval process to the end of time. And it's odd how you think it requires additional funding for the IRS to be evenhanded. If money were the obstacle,  the resulting inequity should fall on both the right-wing and left-wing groups and not just the right-wingers. Clearly, other forces were at work, as even the IRS Inspector General's report noted.
 
2014-01-30 05:28:20 PM  
Why don't we ask why a law that was going to be used by Republicans to circumvent popular opinion became a windfall for the Democrats when the Republicans started broadcasting their retardation to scary levels?  If anybody is to blame for this legislation, it's the Republicans.  And like most of their 'plans' nowadays, it's easily turned on them because they can't think anything through.
 
2014-01-30 07:24:48 PM  
If the Republicans hate the ruling, they are free to have the Speaker bring election reform legislation to the floor. I'm sure the Senate would at least consider the bill.
 
2014-01-30 08:10:38 PM  
There's a reason that McCain-Feingold was sometimes derided as the "Democrat Suicide Act".  We saw this coming.
 
2014-01-31 12:31:10 AM  
This seems like a good thread for this one.

i.imgur.com

/...SVD
 
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