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(RealClear)   Now *this* is how you troll: Edward Snowden nominated for Nobel Peace Prize   (realclear.com) divider line 316
    More: Hero, Nobel Peace Prize, trolls, Politics of Norway  
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8400 clicks; posted to Main » on 29 Jan 2014 at 4:32 PM (30 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-01-29 06:18:14 PM
www.styleforum.net
 
2014-01-29 06:18:43 PM

Cyberluddite: tlars699: There's no way he can accept this, right? It would be like Roman Polansky coming over to the US for an Oscar.
Right?

Well, it's not like the award ceremony is in L.A. or anything--it's in Sweden.  But anyway, just as Woody Allen never shows up to the Oscars but still gets nominated and is eligible to win, you don't have to show up at the Nobel awards ceremony to win the prize--it isn't like a "must be present to win" raffle drawing.


"Drat"- NSA
 
2014-01-29 06:19:37 PM

Rent Party: Finger51: whidbey: m00: I hope he wins.

I would love to see the politicians trying to condemn china for jailing its nobel price winners, but justify (trying to) jail snowden.

I love how just because Snowden blew the whistle he is somehow automagically immune from prosecution.


Except for the fact that he is immune ... or at least should be

The Whistleblower Protection Act of 1989, Pub.L. 101-12 as amended, is a United States federal law that protects federal employees who work for the government and report agency misconduct.

Snowden's actions are specifically excluded from protection by that act.

The dude is a criminal that indiscriminately released state secrets to the public.   He is no different than the asshole that let Valerie Plame's status be known.

He effectively broke into your house, stole your filing cabinet and then pulled out that "questionable" tax return and declared you a tax evader.


Those of us who aren't authoritarian cowards don't feel that way. I understand that you do. But it's not going to be universal.
 
2014-01-29 06:20:35 PM
Nomination isn't a win... I don't think he deserves it.
 
2014-01-29 06:24:56 PM

Rent Party: He is no different than the asshole that let Valerie Plame's status be known.


Scooter Libby?

Rent Party: He effectively broke into your house, stole your filing cabinet and then pulled out that "questionable" tax return and declared you a tax evader.


I guess I don't see it that way. Him stealing my docs and declaring me a tax evader is a pretty huge stretch. My tax evasion doesn't equate to the US government spying on citizens, shiatting on the 4th, and absolutely destroying high levels of trust amongst our allies (Merkel et al)

nope. not even close.
 
2014-01-29 06:29:50 PM

Cyberluddite: tlars699: There's no way he can accept this, right? It would be like Roman Polansky coming over to the US for an Oscar.
Right?

Well, it's not like the award ceremony is in L.A. or anything--it's in Sweden.  But anyway, just as Woody Allen never shows up to the Oscars but still gets nominated and is eligible to win, you don't have to show up at the Nobel awards ceremony to win the prize--it isn't like a "must be present to win" raffle drawing.


You also don't have to do a damned thing to be nominated.

"A former Norwegian minister nominated fugitive US intelligence leaker Edward Snowden for the Nobel Peace Prize Wednesday in a letter to the Norwegian Nobel Committee."

That's it. Any qualified asshole* can submit a nomination.

* Such as
--university professors of history, social sciences, philosophy, law, and theology
--university presidents
--directors of peace research and international affairs institutes
--Former recipients, including board members of organizations that have previously received the prize
 
2014-01-29 06:38:21 PM

iron de havilland: kindms: whidbey: tylerdurden217: I really have no issues with President Obama, I even voted for him both times. But I really did not understand why he won that award. It made no sense then and it makes even less sense now.

It totally made sense. It was the world's way of thanking the US for not electing another stupid warmonger like Bush.

Was Bush a warmonger? He came across as the mildly retarded frontman for a cabal of warmongers.

You know, little things like having difficulty speaking in public and generally making a tit of himself, while god knows who actually planned the wars.

Yes, I know we're still stuck cleaning up his legacy in Afghanistaq. But in the last 5 years, Obama has also somehow managed to deflect the hardliners' war hardon to attack Iran and North Korea, so that is actually saying something. Romney, had he been elected, would have been pushing for both.

He wanted to go in to Syria and only didnt when the entire country basically said NO. So keep f-ing that chicken. He has killed more innocents by drone than Bush,

How many Americans have been killed in the wars started in Bush's reign?

How many non-American civilians have been killed in the same conflicts?

he has waged war on journalists and whistleblowers never before seen by US presidents.

Nixon doctrine.

And do you think a different president would have handled Assange and Snowden differently?

He has presided over ALL of the NSA BS that we keep learning about.

Bush didn't?

And he continues to go on TV and tell everyone it is all legal and above board only to have his own appointed review board turn around and say he is full of crap.

Obama is worse than Bush for the simple reason that under his administration all the things that democrats railed against under a republican administration have become normalized and accepted operating procedure under Obama.

Both sides are bad, so Bush is better?

Makes you sound kind of racist, dude.

He also assassinated American citizens including a 16 year old boy without due process afforded to them by the constitution. Funny how that fact gets glossed over by the "cult"

Yeah... your post leaves me thinking that if anyone's a member of a "cult"... it's you.


Hilarious that you immediately jumped to think I am saying bush is good.

Let's get something straight right off the bat. I'm a liberal lefty mclefterson. But to say there is not a cult of democrats that do whatever it takes to bend over backwards to excuse anything their guy does is laughable. I voted for the f-ing guy but he has been as bad or worse on civil liberties, and foreign policy as the guy he replaced. What makes it even worse is he campaigned on putting a stop to this very thing.

And I unlike May democrats will hold him to the same standard as Bush when it comes to law breaking and killing people. He doesn't get a pass from me just because he has a D next to his name
 
2014-01-29 06:38:48 PM

Nemo's Brother: Europeans have set themselves up to be completely dependent upon the government for their day-to-day survival


You only think you're he-man of the mountains.
 
2014-01-29 06:40:00 PM

kindms: He doesn't get a pass from me just because he has a D next to his name


This is why you are a Democrat in Name Only.
 
2014-01-29 06:40:08 PM
I can agree with a nomination to recognize his efforts, and further the discussion. But only a nomination. Someone like Malala Yousafzai actually deserves to win the prize.
 
2014-01-29 06:41:27 PM

tylerdurden217: wee: ManateeGag: He deserves it just as much as Obama did.

More than Obama.  Snowden actually did something.

I really have no issues with President Obama, I even voted for him both times. But I really did not understand why he won that award. It made no sense then and it makes even less sense now.

I hope Snowden really does win the Nobel Peace Prize. I'm not saying that what he did was right or wrong. I'm not even suggesting that he would be the most deserving of the prize, but it would at least keep the conversation going regarding privacy.


All of this except I'd say what Snowden did was clearly right, and he's a goddamn national hero.
 
2014-01-29 06:41:54 PM

sendtodave: Which narrative, the one where he is only an innocent bystander, or the one where he is a malicious, monomaniacal traitor?


Either/or depending on which side you fall.  He's not really a victim, but he's also not someone who clearly thought out a plan to bring the US to its knees.  He planned to much to be a victim, and not enough to be a super-spy.

whidbey: I'm really not seeing the "megalomania" angle.


Of course you don't because you suffer from it or something similar yourself.  You consider him a hero because you cannot understand or acknowledge that he's done real damage to real people you don't know about.  Instead, you think this:

whidbey: And if anything, it takes a lot of courage to stand up to nearly indefensible policy like the NSA, or for that matter, the US as the aggressively hypocritical mega-state it's become.


That's a great sentiment if you don't care about anything except your own narrow worldview.  In order to support it you have to actively reject knowledge of any third party that may do harm and instead focus your ire on the NSA or the US, as you've so clearly stated.  Then you have to believe that one person who stole snippets of a whole story is more correct than a collective of millions over the years, and more importantly that any third party is just a figment of the collective's imagination or a non-concern based on your own personal belief.

If that's not megalomania, then maybe it's just good old-fashioned narcissism or myopia.
 
2014-01-29 06:46:59 PM

kindms: But to say there is not a cult of democrats that do whatever it takes to bend over backwards to excuse anything their guy does is laughable.


Speaking of "laughable."

He doesn't get a pass from me just because he has a D next to his name

Because anyone who supports the achievements of the past 5 years must be partisan hacks. All of us.
 
2014-01-29 06:48:52 PM

whidbey: kindms: But to say there is not a cult of democrats that do whatever it takes to bend over backwards to excuse anything their guy does is laughable.

Speaking of "laughable."

He doesn't get a pass from me just because he has a D next to his name

Because anyone who supports the achievements of the past 5 years must be partisan hacks. All of us.


Achievements?  Like the XBox1?   Another NASCAR championship for the JJ?  Penis transplants?
 
2014-01-29 06:49:26 PM

Lsherm: Either/or depending on which side you fall.


Ahh, I see.

This has become one of those issues where someone picks a "side," where their alignment is based on their worldview.  Facts are then culled to fit to their preconceived notions, and build a narrative.

Like most politics.

Neat.
 
2014-01-29 06:50:28 PM

Chris Ween: whidbey: kindms: But to say there is not a cult of democrats that do whatever it takes to bend over backwards to excuse anything their guy does is laughable.

Speaking of "laughable."

He doesn't get a pass from me just because he has a D next to his name

Because anyone who supports the achievements of the past 5 years must be partisan hacks. All of us.

Achievements?  Like the XBox1?   Another NASCAR championship for the JJ?  Penis transplants?


Hey, he's still letting you post.
 
2014-01-29 06:50:38 PM

tylerdurden217: wee: ManateeGag: He deserves it just as much as Obama did.

More than Obama.  Snowden actually did something.

I really have no issues with President Obama, I even voted for him both times. But I really did not understand why he won that award. It made no sense then and it makes even less sense now.

I hope Snowden really does win the Nobel Peace Prize. I'm not saying that what he did was right or wrong. I'm not even suggesting that he would be the most deserving of the prize, but it would at least keep the conversation going regarding privacy.


Obama won that prize because of his amazing speeches, and the fact that the entire world was so sick of Bush by that point that ANYONE who gave people hope was put on a pedestal and admired.  The world truly loved Obama, right up until he took office and became the spineless little weasel pet of Wall Street he is today (to be fair, I also voted for him/drank the kool aid).  Talk, it turns out, is cheap.

Snowden, on the other hand, exposed perhaps the largest threat to true democracy in human history, at much (widely acknowledged) personal risk.  The man is the embodiment of the spirit of the award.  I've said for years that we need a Privacy Amendment to the Constitution, this was why.  Specifically, ever since Carnivore, the assholes in DC have found every way possible to get all up in everyone's business, at least now its out in the open.

On a related topic, since the grand panel in Washington investigated the Snowden leaks and decided that what the NSA was doing was illegal, when will the world be treated to watching James Clapper and General Alexander go to jail?  I thought that was what was supposed to happen when people break the law?... or did I miss something?
 
2014-01-29 06:51:46 PM

mongbiohazard: tylerdurden217: wee: ManateeGag: He deserves it just as much as Obama did.

More than Obama.  Snowden actually did something.

I really have no issues with President Obama, I even voted for him both times. But I really did not understand why he won that award. It made no sense then and it makes even less sense now.

I hope Snowden really does win the Nobel Peace Prize. I'm not saying that what he did was right or wrong. I'm not even suggesting that he would be the most deserving of the prize, but it would at least keep the conversation going regarding privacy.

All of this except I'd say what Snowden did was clearly right, and he's a goddamn national hero.


Snowden is not a hero. He took a lot more than evidence of a collection of phone records. We have yet to find out the full dimensions of what he took. At the moment, he could as easily be a traitor who should be hanged.
 
2014-01-29 06:52:08 PM

chitlenz: I've said for years that we need a Privacy Amendment to the Constitution, this was why.


Why do you think they'd ever give you that?
 
2014-01-29 06:52:19 PM

whidbey: kindms: But to say there is not a cult of democrats that do whatever it takes to bend over backwards to excuse anything their guy does is laughable.

Speaking of "laughable."

He doesn't get a pass from me just because he has a D next to his name

Because anyone who supports the achievements of the past 5 years must be partisan hacks. All of us.


sorry but the person i quoted had all the excuses lined up. so i guess if you agree with that assesment of the president then yes you probably are a hack. Not saying the guy hasnt done some good but he has done a lot of bad as well.
 
2014-01-29 06:54:11 PM

TheWhoppah: wee: ManateeGag: He deserves it just as much as Obama did.

More than Obama.  Snowden actually did something.

Giving the award to Obama was a gesture to recognize the citizen voters of the United States... to recognize our collective ability to see the fear mongering GOP asswipes politicians of both parties for who they really were and reject their "bomb bomb Iran" preemptive-war policies.  We elected, as our president, a man named  Barack Hussein Obama just a few years after falling hook-line-and-sinker for the GOP/FoxNews media lie machine regarding another man named Hussein.  I'm sure it took brass balls for Obama to even consider running for president but this award was for the everyday Americans that stood in line to vote for him.


(Fixed because it wasn't just the GOP or Fox News at the time; it was pretty much everyone doing that shiat right up until a few neurons started firing again)

That is the first logical explanation I have heard for President Obama's Peace Prize award since it was awarded.
 
2014-01-29 06:55:22 PM

sendtodave: chitlenz: I've said for years that we need a Privacy Amendment to the Constitution, this was why.

Why do you think they'd ever give you that?


The was a time when it was possible, back around 1996 when the internet was just becoming a "thing" when this was possible.  When people discovered Carnivore, there was a big debate in geek circles, but we are notoriously lazy given time and it never did happen.

I, tragically, agree with you... it would never happen now.  Google would spend everything they had to prevent it (among an army of others).
 
2014-01-29 06:55:45 PM
Alot fo people simply cheer against the United States.  To them, Snowden is a hero because he harmed the U.S.  Some of these people even live in the U.S.  However, under United States law, Snowden is a criminal.  Snowden knew he was breaking the law when he did it.  What separates him from other famous people who claimed political dissident status is that he fled the country and continued to break U.S. law by revealing secrets while being shielded by traditional enemies of the U.S.  That kind of makes him either a coward or a traitor.  He isn't in the same league as other great dissidents.
 
2014-01-29 06:55:50 PM
I'd kill for a Nobel Peace Prize.
 
2014-01-29 06:56:24 PM

whidbey: Chris Ween: whidbey: kindms: But to say there is not a cult of democrats that do whatever it takes to bend over backwards to excuse anything their guy does is laughable.

Speaking of "laughable."

He doesn't get a pass from me just because he has a D next to his name

Because anyone who supports the achievements of the past 5 years must be partisan hacks. All of us.

Achievements?  Like the XBox1?   Another NASCAR championship for the JJ?  Penis transplants?

Hey, he's still letting you post.


He's too busy playing golf and reading petitions to deport Bieber to hunt me down.
 
2014-01-29 06:57:11 PM

ManateeGag: He deserves it just as much as Obama did.


I applaud you sir.
 
2014-01-29 07:00:38 PM
Wow, quite the follow up to their nomination of Obama for a Peace Prize.
 
2014-01-29 07:00:48 PM
By that same logic, Julius and Ethel Rosenberg should be awarded one for ending the US monopoly on nuclear weapons.
 
2014-01-29 07:01:16 PM

Lsherm: sendtodave: Which narrative, the one where he is only an innocent bystander, or the one where he is a malicious, monomaniacal traitor?

Either/or depending on which side you fall.  He's not really a victim, but he's also not someone who clearly thought out a plan to bring the US to its knees.  He planned to much to be a victim, and not enough to be a super-spy.

whidbey: I'm really not seeing the "megalomania" angle.

Of course you don't because you suffer from it or something similar yourself.  You consider him a hero because you cannot understand or acknowledge that he's done real damage to real people you don't know about.  Instead, you think this:

whidbey: And if anything, it takes a lot of courage to stand up to nearly indefensible policy like the NSA, or for that matter, the US as the aggressively hypocritical mega-state it's become.

That's a great sentiment if you don't care about anything except your own narrow worldview.  In order to support it you have to actively reject knowledge of any third party that may do harm and instead focus your ire on the NSA or the US, as you've so clearly stated.  Then you have to believe that one person who stole snippets of a whole story is more correct than a collective of millions over the years, and more importantly that any third party is just a figment of the collective's imagination or a non-concern based on your own personal belief.

If that's not megalomania, then maybe it's just good old-fashioned narcissism or myopia.


Forgive me if I dismiss your comment as a bunch of patronizing bullshiat.

Snowden blew the whistle on a government he knew was overstepping its bounds. And god knows how much harm has already been done by their zeal, hypocrisy and violation of other people's rights.
 
2014-01-29 07:03:59 PM

dittybopper: ManateeGag: He deserves it just as much as Obama did.

Moreso, actually:  Obama got his for, well, no one really knows, because he hadn't actually done much at that point except win an election.

You could argue that Snowden, by exposing the pervasive surveillance capabilities of the NSA, made us all a little bit more free, if only because we *KNOW* we're being surveilled now.


Well, he degraded the standing of the US in the eyes of the rest of the world, caused increased tensions with many allies (and non allies), and therefore the world in general. More or less the opposite of peace, IMHO.

People can say "Well, too bad, the US deserves all the fallout" but realistically, exposing the seamy underbelly of more-or-less-necessary (imho) government mechanisms of just one country, without providing the same info on all other countries for comparison, was not really a helpful thing to anyone, anywhere.

Anyone who has ever been married, or raised children, would know that the ideal of "it is *always* good to shine light on all information and behavior" is a flawed ideal. Ideals are great, openness is usually great - but with maturity perspective and experience, we all eventually learn that not everything ends up being nicely categorized into "good" and "evil" - and this is especially true when it comes to the choices that need to be made at the scale we are discussing. There are always sacrifices, and extremely difficult choices.

Snowdon was an idealist, and he knew that his leaks would appeal to other idealists who lack that perspective, to paranoids, and to others who fear the government - and he has their support now. But we, all of us, are most certainly not safer now - neither are the operatives he exposed who have since been executed - those same operatives who had been making their own sacrifices and difficult choices. And neither are those whom those operatives protected.

The tragedy of all of this is that there are thousands upon thousands of "good" people, doing their best to be honest and trustworthy, and doing their best to protect not only their own families, or even just the families of their own countrymen, but people doing their best to protect everyone -who had access to the same information, and realized that the best choice would be to protect that information in the best interests of everyone - the tragedy is that Snowden undermined all of their efforts, for his own misguided sense of idealism. He betrayed the trust of many, many, MANY "good" people doing their best to do "good" things for "good" reasons while forced to make extremely difficult sacrifices and choices to reach those "good" goals.

This isn't about one nation over another, or about patriotism or jingoism - all those who govern and protect all nations have to make similar choices - choices that would look equally bad if held up to the light outside of their normal context.

Snowden is no hero to thoughtful people.
 
2014-01-29 07:04:43 PM

Animatronik: mongbiohazard: tylerdurden217: wee: ManateeGag: He deserves it just as much as Obama did.

More than Obama.  Snowden actually did something.

I really have no issues with President Obama, I even voted for him both times. But I really did not understand why he won that award. It made no sense then and it makes even less sense now.

I hope Snowden really does win the Nobel Peace Prize. I'm not saying that what he did was right or wrong. I'm not even suggesting that he would be the most deserving of the prize, but it would at least keep the conversation going regarding privacy.

All of this except I'd say what Snowden did was clearly right, and he's a goddamn national hero.

Snowden is not a hero. He took a lot more than evidence of a collection of phone records. We have yet to find out the full dimensions of what he took. At the moment, he could as easily be a traitor who should be hanged.


Treason is giving aid and comfort  to an enemy. Who is our enemy? Embarrassing office holders who are malefactors isn't treason.
 
2014-01-29 07:06:09 PM

ISO15693: Snowden is no hero to thoughtful people.



Did you dislocate your shoulder doing that?
 
2014-01-29 07:07:04 PM

Rent Party: wee: ManateeGag: He deserves it just as much as Obama did.

More than Obama.  Snowden actually did something.

They have both done the exact same thing.  Not being George Bush.


Obama is not George Bush? Besides being black and being able to speak English above a ninth grade level, how is Obama not George Bush on steroids? Bush used to have wet dreams about the shiat Obama has done.
 
2014-01-29 07:07:22 PM

whidbey: tylerdurden217: I really have no issues with President Obama, I even voted for him both times. But I really did not understand why he won that award. It made no sense then and it makes even less sense now.

It totally made sense. It was the world's way of thanking the US for not electing another stupid warmonger like Bush. Yes, I know we're still stuck cleaning up his legacy in Afghanistaq. But in the last 5 years, Obama has also somehow managed to deflect the hardliners' war hardon to attack Iran and North Korea, so that is actually saying something. Romney, had he been elected, would have been pushing for both.


Sure had a boner for Syria though didn't he..
 
2014-01-29 07:08:20 PM
Considering his best man and 1/2 brother is calling for the demise of Israel, yeah, Father Oombama deserves it.
 
2014-01-29 07:09:33 PM

Mouser: By that same logic, Julius and Ethel Rosenberg should be awarded one for ending the US monopoly on nuclear weapons.


Hm, that's hard to argue with. One day, these guys will win the prize, too, just like this guy.
 
2014-01-29 07:09:41 PM

yakmans_dad: ISO15693: Snowden is no hero to thoughtful people.


Did you dislocate your shoulder doing that?


Adults don't have ideals.
 
2014-01-29 07:13:45 PM

ISO15693: But we, all of us, are most certainly not safer now - neither are the operatives he exposed who have since been executed


Who was executed?
 
2014-01-29 07:20:45 PM

cowgirl toffee: I'd kill for a Nobel Peace Prize.


I nominate cowgirl toffee !!
 
2014-01-29 07:21:05 PM

whidbey: Who the hell is advocating that? Drew's Heineken Troll Cabal?


Sitting farking Senators and members of the House, for starters.
 
2014-01-29 07:23:33 PM

Slartibartfaster: cowgirl toffee: I'd kill for a Nobel Peace Prize.

I nominate cowgirl toffee !!


*giggles* I accept!  *click click*
 
2014-01-29 07:28:50 PM
A real troll would have nominated him for the Nobel Prize for Literature.
 
2014-01-29 07:32:27 PM
If Snowden wins it, there won't be enough '1's on the entire Internet to fully describe that level of hell ya.
 
2014-01-29 07:35:44 PM
Just stopped by to say the NRA has filed an amicus brief in ACLU v. Clapper, the lawsuit made possible by the Verizon order disclosed by future laureate Snowden.
 
2014-01-29 07:37:42 PM

Aigoo: TheWhoppah: wee: ManateeGag: He deserves it just as much as Obama did.

More than Obama.  Snowden actually did something.

Giving the award to Obama was a gesture to recognize the citizen voters of the United States... to recognize our collective ability to see the fear mongering

GOP asswipes politicians of both parties for who they really were and reject their "bomb bomb Iran" preemptive-war policies.  We elected, as our president, a man named  Barack Hussein Obama just a few years after falling hook-line-and-sinker for the GOP/FoxNews media lie machine regarding another man named Hussein.  I'm sure it took brass balls for Obama to even consider running for president but this award was for the everyday Americans that stood in line to vote for him.

(Fixed because it wasn't just the GOP or Fox News at the time; it was pretty much everyone doing that shiat right up until a few neurons started firing again)

That is the first logical explanation I have heard for President Obama's Peace Prize award since it was awarded.


Fair enough.  If I recall correctly just about every news outlet except maybe Pacifica/DemocracyNow was cheerleading for war, at least until 2006 or so.  I just remembered the GOP/FoxNews crap because they continued trying to sell that LoadOfshiat into 2009.
 
2014-01-29 07:43:02 PM
just wanted to say I was part of this.  Flame on.
 
2014-01-29 07:51:53 PM

sendtodave: yakmans_dad: ISO15693: Snowden is no hero to thoughtful people.


Did you dislocate your shoulder doing that?

Adults don't have ideals.


They do. They also usually understand the nature of ideals. They are goals, but not always perfect, absolute ones.

An adult can have the ideal "It is always good to tell the truth" and they will still be able to recognize the importance of lying when your wife asks if she looks fat in these pants. You still have the ideal. You just know it doesn't apply in all situations. It isn't absolute.
 
2014-01-29 07:59:28 PM
Snowden deserves this prize more than all you moronic bootlickers on this shiatty board. You have no sense of justice or freedom. Authoritarian fark holes. You actually use the word "loyalty" when speaking of the US government? Are you farking crazy? These farkers will kill your whole farking family without blinking an eye. They don't care about their own citizens. They care about power and control. This man is a hero. Future history books will bear that out.
 
2014-01-29 08:01:05 PM

ISO15693: sendtodave: yakmans_dad: ISO15693: Snowden is no hero to thoughtful people.


Did you dislocate your shoulder doing that?

Adults don't have ideals.

They do. They also usually understand the nature of ideals. They are goals, but not always perfect, absolute ones.

An adult can have the ideal "It is always good to tell the truth" and they will still be able to recognize the importance of lying when your wife asks if she looks fat in these pants. You still have the ideal. You just know it doesn't apply in all situations. It isn't absolute.


The gag about "ideals" wasn't mine. (I don't understand why adults don't have them. But then I'm approaching 2nd childhood.) My objection was to the guy trying to preempt the quality of being "thoughtful", As my joke indicated, the self-congratulation was a bit thick. I like to imagine that exposing how vast and obtrusive the abuses of the NSA had become was a great good.
 
2014-01-29 08:01:14 PM

whidbey: Lsherm: sendtodave: Which narrative, the one where he is only an innocent bystander, or the one where he is a malicious, monomaniacal traitor?

Either/or depending on which side you fall.  He's not really a victim, but he's also not someone who clearly thought out a plan to bring the US to its knees.  He planned to much to be a victim, and not enough to be a super-spy.

whidbey: I'm really not seeing the "megalomania" angle.

Of course you don't because you suffer from it or something similar yourself.  You consider him a hero because you cannot understand or acknowledge that he's done real damage to real people you don't know about.  Instead, you think this:

whidbey: And if anything, it takes a lot of courage to stand up to nearly indefensible policy like the NSA, or for that matter, the US as the aggressively hypocritical mega-state it's become.

That's a great sentiment if you don't care about anything except your own narrow worldview.  In order to support it you have to actively reject knowledge of any third party that may do harm and instead focus your ire on the NSA or the US, as you've so clearly stated.  Then you have to believe that one person who stole snippets of a whole story is more correct than a collective of millions over the years, and more importantly that any third party is just a figment of the collective's imagination or a non-concern based on your own personal belief.

If that's not megalomania, then maybe it's just good old-fashioned narcissism or myopia.

Forgive me if I dismiss your comment as a bunch of patronizing bullshiat.

Snowden blew the whistle on a government he knew was overstepping its bounds. And god knows how much harm has already been done by their zeal, hypocrisy and violation of other people's rights.


Which is why he should come home and face the people he helped in a jury trial
 
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