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(The Atlantic)   "Processed food is slowly poisoning everyone," claims heart doctor with sinister agenda   (theatlantic.com ) divider line
    More: Unlikely, raw foods, processed food, political agenda, Cardiologist, omega-3 fatty acids  
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6261 clicks; posted to Main » on 29 Jan 2014 at 2:22 AM (2 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



116 Comments     (+0 »)
 
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest
 
2014-01-29 01:18:17 AM  
Sinister?

Hawking your goods and services in exchange for something, in this case oodles and oodles of money, is as old a phenomenon as man himself, probably older.
 
2014-01-29 01:55:40 AM  
"We physicians with all our experience and authority" he writes, "often acquire a rather large selfishness that tends to make it hard to accept we are wrong. So, here it is. I openly admit to being mistaken. As a heart surgeon with 25 years experience, having done more than 5,000 open-heart surgeries, today is my day to right the wrong with medical and scientific proof."

Between 2000 and 2008, Lundell was subjected to five regulatory actions by the Arizona Medical Board:

In 2000, the board concluded that his postoperative management of a patient who had died following carotid artery surgery was substandard and insufficiently documented. He was censured for unprofessional conduct, assessed a $2,500 civil penalty, and placed on probation during which he was required to take continuing medical education courses in carotid artery surgery and medical recordkeeping. He was also required to submit to monitoring of his patient records [4].

In 2003, the board noted that 13 out of 20 charts reviewed by the consultant were deficient because they did not include adequate initial evaluations of the patients. Lundell was censured again and was placed on probation that included quarterly chart reviews [5].

In 2004, the board found fault with his management of two patients and concluded that his records for these patients were inadequate. He was reprimanded and ordered to serve two more years of probation, during which he was required to undergo an extensive evaluation of his fitness to continue practicing medicine [6].

In 2006, the board sent him an advisory letter for failure to maintain adequate records and for a technical surgical error [7].

In 2008, the board reviewed Lundell's management of several more patients and revoked his medical license. The board's order mentioned that the board was investigating his care of seven patients because the Banner Desert Medical Hospital had suspended Lundell's surgical privileges [7].


Financial and Legal Trouble

Lundell also ran into considerable difficulty in his nonmedical affairs. Although the full records are not readily available, documents I found on the Internet indicate the following:
In 1990 Lundell filed for bankruptcy. At that time, there were several lawsuits pending in state court on the theory that he was a partner in a construction business called West Coast Construction in which he had invested. I don't know the outcome of these suits, but he ultimately wound up owing at least $20 million dollars.

In 2005, he again filed for bankruptcy, claiming to have assets of $12,990 and liabilities of $20,185,769.60. The liabilities included $74,264.77 in credit card debts, $78,932.48 for accounting services, the $20 million debt related to the previous bankruptcy, and "unknown amounts" of state and federal taxes owed. The financial statement also listed his earnings as $0 for 2005, $0 for $2004, and $288,436 for 2003 [8].

In 2004, Lundell pleaded guilty in federal court to three counts of willful failure to file income tax returns. A newspaper report indicates that he had become a client of "tax protester" Wayne C. Bentson after a long-running dispute with the IRS and that rather than filing tax returns from 1992 to 1996, Lundell had filed affidavits contesting the government's right to levy taxes [9].

In 2005, Lundell was sentenced to three years' probation, but the probation was terminated after 16 months. Bentson was ordered to pay $1,129,937 to the Internal Revenue Service and was sentenced to four years in prison, to be followed by three years of supervised release [10].

link
 
2014-01-29 02:25:19 AM  
hotmessmartha.com
 
2014-01-29 02:26:03 AM  
So yeah, he is perfectly qualified to talk about this.
 
2014-01-29 02:27:13 AM  

log_jammin: A newspaper report indicates that he had become a client of "tax protester" Wayne C. Bentson after a long-running dispute with the IRS and that rather than filing tax returns from 1992 to 1996, Lundell had filed affidavits contesting the government's right to levy taxes


Wow, fark that guy.
 
2014-01-29 02:28:51 AM  

log_jammin: "We physicians with all our experience and authority" he writes, "often acquire a rather large selfishness that tends to make it hard to accept we are wrong. So, here it is. I openly admit to being mistaken. As a heart surgeon with 25 years experience, having done more than 5,000 open-heart surgeries, today is my day to right the wrong with medical and scientific proof."

Between 2000 and 2008, Lundell was subjected to five regulatory actions by the Arizona Medical Board:

In 2000, the board concluded that his postoperative management of a patient who had died following carotid artery surgery was substandard and insufficiently documented. He was censured for unprofessional conduct, assessed a $2,500 civil penalty, and placed on probation during which he was required to take continuing medical education courses in carotid artery surgery and medical recordkeeping. He was also required to submit to monitoring of his patient records [4].

In 2003, the board noted that 13 out of 20 charts reviewed by the consultant were deficient because they did not include adequate initial evaluations of the patients. Lundell was censured again and was placed on probation that included quarterly chart reviews [5].

In 2004, the board found fault with his management of two patients and concluded that his records for these patients were inadequate. He was reprimanded and ordered to serve two more years of probation, during which he was required to undergo an extensive evaluation of his fitness to continue practicing medicine [6].

In 2006, the board sent him an advisory letter for failure to maintain adequate records and for a technical surgical error [7].

In 2008, the board reviewed Lundell's management of several more patients and revoked his medical license. The board's order mentioned that the board was investigating his care of seven patients because the Banner Desert Medical Hospital had suspended Lundell's surgical privileges [7].


Financial and Legal Trouble

Lundell also ran i ...


Well... that settles that.
 
2014-01-29 02:32:19 AM  
I think he'd appreciate my "if in doubt eat a head of romaine" approach. If I find myself thinking about fast food I eat a headbof romaine, with maybe some Baco's and balsamic vinegar.
 
2014-01-29 02:51:41 AM  

AHHHHHHH MOTHERLAAAANND!

 
2014-01-29 02:52:43 AM  
I think a lot of this sentiment has come since the advent of prescription advertising. TV ads for prescription drugs all basically say, "Don't trust what your doctor has told you, but don't get a second opinion, either. Listen to us, the marketers, and tell your doctor you want our drug instead."

Now people think doctors are there to do what you tell them, instead of being highly educated and trained people who take care of problems the vast majority of people can't begin to understand.
 
2014-01-29 02:57:46 AM  
Being alive is slowly poisoning everyone.
 
2014-01-29 02:57:58 AM  

log_jammin: "We physicians with all our experience and authority" he writes, "often acquire a rather large selfishness that tends to make it hard to accept we are wrong. So, here it is. I openly admit to being mistaken. As a heart surgeon with 25 years experience, having done more than 5,000 open-heart surgeries, today is my day to right the wrong with medical and scientific proof."

Between 2000 and 2008, Lundell was subjected to five regulatory actions by the Arizona Medical Board:

In 2000, the board concluded that his postoperative management of a patient who had died following carotid artery surgery was substandard and insufficiently documented. He was censured for unprofessional conduct, assessed a $2,500 civil penalty, and placed on probation during which he was required to take continuing medical education courses in carotid artery surgery and medical recordkeeping. He was also required to submit to monitoring of his patient records [4].

In 2003, the board noted that 13 out of 20 charts reviewed by the consultant were deficient because they did not include adequate initial evaluations of the patients. Lundell was censured again and was placed on probation that included quarterly chart reviews [5].

In 2004, the board found fault with his management of two patients and concluded that his records for these patients were inadequate. He was reprimanded and ordered to serve two more years of probation, during which he was required to undergo an extensive evaluation of his fitness to continue practicing medicine [6].

In 2006, the board sent him an advisory letter for failure to maintain adequate records and for a technical surgical error [7].

In 2008, the board reviewed Lundell's management of several more patients and revoked his medical license. The board's order mentioned that the board was investigating his care of seven patients because the Banner Desert Medical Hospital had suspended Lundell's surgical privileges [7].


Financial and Legal Trouble

Lundell also ran i ...



>
>
>

Umm, please provide citation.
Otherwise it sounds like made up stuff.

Also it can be seen to say that he was a by the book heart surgeon from 1990-2000 and then around 2000 he started having qualms.

He tried to change things and it rubbed the wrong way against the established authority and he made a lot of enemies.

The guy is obviously toting the Paleo nutrition dogma but with his own added flourishes. Maybe he's just out to make a few bucks out a book. It's quite amazing how much money people make out of writing books.
 
2014-01-29 02:59:29 AM  

log_jammin: "We physicians with all our experience and authority" he writes, "often acquire a rather large selfishness that tends to make it hard to accept we are wrong. So, here it is. I openly admit to being mistaken. As a heart surgeon with 25 years experience, having done more than 5,000 open-heart surgeries, today is my day to right the wrong with medical and scientific proof."

Between 2000 and 2008, Lundell was subjected to five regulatory actions by the Arizona Medical Board...



It is correct to respond to an appeal from authority with an ad hominem argument. Perhaps if the man was a nutritionist, not a thoracic surgical specialist, it would be inappropriate.
Carry on.
 
2014-01-29 02:59:33 AM  

Lenny_da_Hog: Now people think doctors are there to do what you tell them, instead of being highly educated and trained people who take care of problems the vast majority of people can't begin to understand.


Americans tend to believe that their opinion is just as valuable as the opinion of an expert in their field.

It's why we have anti vaccers and a global warming "debate". I even recall a guy on here who said that any scientific theory he read about that didn't make sense to him couldn't be true, since he's a really smart guy and all. therefore if he didn't understand it, it was a lie to deceive the public.
 
2014-01-29 03:00:42 AM  

mr0x: Umm, please provide citation.


I did. the link also has citations to the individual claims it makes.
 
2014-01-29 03:12:26 AM  
Basically we don't exercise enough and we eat like shiat and it's not healthy for us. Duh.

Darwin applauds each and every cheeseburger and donut we eat and he's right there chanting "chug chug chug chug" when we have a soda. For every minute we sit on our arse little +1's float up in a game where you don't want to get the high score. Bonus points for all the crap we pollute the environment with.
 
2014-01-29 03:16:33 AM  

log_jammin: mr0x: Umm, please provide citation.

I did. the link also has citations to the individual claims it makes.


>
>
>

Oh yeah, you did. Sorry. Great link.

He also has MLM supplement thing going on and membership based website.

He's obviously piggbacking on the paleo ideas and using his former heart surgeon credentials to make money.
 
2014-01-29 03:23:29 AM  
FTFA: "Diet advice, in particular, is in even more places than everywhere."

Incorrect by far;this guy reads like he's a valley girl.
 
2014-01-29 03:27:02 AM  
I thought cooking was processing. All foods are processed, otherwise it's just raw. Macaroni and cheese is still organic because of the butter and milk and salt.
 
2014-01-29 03:32:01 AM  
It seems to me that the Atlantic article might be committing libel when it say 'Also, his invocation of moral defensibly loses gravitas in light of his criminal history.'

Even if you accept the accusations posted on the website 'Quackwatch' as truth, there doesn't appear to be any 'criminal' history.  Most of the 'charges' are about his medical license, not criminal wrong-doing. Not filing your tax returns is a misdemeanor civil charge (http://www.irs.gov/irm/part25/irm_25-001-007.html ), which can escalate to felony, however it is still a civil, not criminal, matter.

What is his crime?
 
2014-01-29 03:36:09 AM  

Boloxor the Insipid: It seems to me that the Atlantic article might be committing libel when it say 'Also, his invocation of moral defensibly loses gravitas in light of his criminal history.'

Even if you accept the accusations posted on the website 'Quackwatch' as truth, there doesn't appear to be any 'criminal' history.  Most of the 'charges' are about his medical license, not criminal wrong-doing. Not filing your tax returns is a misdemeanor civil charge (http://www.irs.gov/irm/part25/irm_25-001-007.html ), which can escalate to felony, however it is still a civil, not criminal, matter.

What is his crime?


Tax evasion...  it's a crime.
 
2014-01-29 03:37:07 AM  

Boloxor the Insipid: Not filing your tax returns is a misdemeanor civil charge (http://www.irs.gov/irm/part25/irm_25-001-007.html ), which can escalate to felony, however it is still a civil, not criminal, matter.

In 2005, Lundell was sentenced to three years' probation, but the probation was terminated after 16 months. Bentson was ordered to pay $1,129,937 to the Internal Revenue Service and was sentenced to four years in prison, to be followed by three years of supervised release


try again.
 
2014-01-29 03:40:02 AM  

log_jammin: Boloxor the Insipid: Not filing your tax returns is a misdemeanor civil charge (http://www.irs.gov/irm/part25/irm_25-001-007.html ), which can escalate to felony, however it is still a civil, not criminal, matter.

In 2005, Lundell was sentenced to three years' probation, but the probation was terminated after 16 months. Bentson was ordered to pay $1,129,937 to the Internal Revenue Service and was sentenced to four years in prison, to be followed by three years of supervised release

try again.

>
>


Lundell = doctor
Benston = accountant

Different people
 
2014-01-29 03:41:25 AM  
OK I missed that.

but he still received probation for his crime.
 
2014-01-29 03:47:54 AM  
We will evolve and adapt just like we did with grains. Sure there will be a lot of cancer and death in the meantime, but some version of obese illiterate human will make it alone on fried chicken and cheese burgers. When that day comes in a couple thousands years, Alec Baldwin's great, great, great fat grandson will narrate the remake of "Walking With Cavemen" which will be called "Scooting With Fatties".
 
2014-01-29 03:48:37 AM  
The footnote for the second 'probation' mention isn't even about Lundell.  The previous mention of probation is about his medical licence.  I see no evidence that Lundell was ever convicted of a crime..
 
2014-01-29 03:54:06 AM  
However did I know that this clown would be a surgeon?
 
2014-01-29 03:58:24 AM  

Boloxor the Insipid: The footnote for the second 'probation' mention isn't even about Lundell.


Yes I was wrong on that part.

Boloxor the Insipid: The previous mention of probation is about his medical licence.


the previous mention of probation was   In 2005, Lundell was sentenced to three years' probation, but the probation was terminated after 16 months.

the three mention of probation before that was for his medical license.

Boloxor the Insipid: I see no evidence that Lundell was ever convicted of a crime..

"In 2004, Lundell pleaded guilty in federal court to three counts of willful failure to file income tax returns. "


and was later..."sentenced to three years' probation, but the probation was terminated after 16 months. "
 
2014-01-29 04:06:22 AM  

Boloxor the Insipid: It seems to me that the Atlantic article might be committing libel when it say 'Also, his invocation of moral defensibly loses gravitas in light of his criminal history.'

Even if you accept the accusations posted on the website 'Quackwatch' as truth, there doesn't appear to be any 'criminal' history.  Most of the 'charges' are about his medical license, not criminal wrong-doing. Not filing your tax returns is a misdemeanor civil charge (http://www.irs.gov/irm/part25/irm_25-001-007.html ), which can escalate to felony, however it is still a civil, not criminal, matter.

What is his crime?


You're misreading.


Willful failure to file is a crime, not a civil matter. It can be a misdemeanor or felony. Being found guilty puts you into the penal system -- criminal fines, probation, jail time. You have to either plead or be found guilty by a criminal court.

Aside from that, if that failure to file also qualifies as fraudulent, there is a 75% FFTF civil penalty invoked by the IRS. They don't have to go to court and find you guilty of any criminal charges to impose that penalty -- it's a penalty they can invoke by their own procedures, part of the rules -- it's a *civil* penalty, added to your tax burden by civil process, not by the criminal courts.
 
2014-01-29 04:20:59 AM  
Wow, I can't believe assholes are defending this asshole.

Oh... wait. I guess I'm not surprised at all, actually.
 
2014-01-29 04:29:48 AM  
Like, eat food that like, just grows and stuff and not crap and it's better?

Goollll lee!

Whodathunk?

Soon, we will look back at the post WWII era between 45 and 70 when there was a brief epoch of industry based prosperity for people who worked for a living.  then, we will look back on this era as the time when "we had everything totally figured out, because computers."  With any luck, this will lead us to the era of "Wow, everything pretty much already works and, oddly, the less we mess with it; the better it works."  We can only hope.
 
2014-01-29 04:36:06 AM  

Solutare: Wow, I can't believe assholes are defending this asshole.

Oh... wait. I guess I'm not surprised at all, actually.


Why is he ans 'asshole' Solutare?  He saved 5000 lives doing heart surgeries in his career.  How many lives have you saved Solutare?   Then, he wrote a book that says you should eat healthy food.
Here you are,Solutare, calling a total stranger an asshole on the basis of some crap you read on the internet.

Who's the asshole, Soutare?
 
2014-01-29 04:43:06 AM  

Boloxor the Insipid: He saved 5000 lives doing heart surgeries in his career.


how do you know?
 
2014-01-29 05:01:32 AM  

Boloxor the Insipid: Solutare: Wow, I can't believe assholes are defending this asshole.

Oh... wait. I guess I'm not surprised at all, actually.

Why is he ans 'asshole' Solutare?  He saved 5000 lives doing heart surgeries in his career.  How many lives have you saved Solutare?   Then, he wrote a book that says you should eat healthy food.
Here you are,Solutare, calling a total stranger an asshole on the basis of some crap you read on the internet.

Who's the asshole, Soutare?


Yeah, Solutare.

/ Solutare  Solutare  Solutare  Solutare  Solutare  Solutare  Solutar e Solutare  Solutare  Solutare  Solutare  Solutare  Solutare  Solutare   Solutare  Solutare  Solutare  Solutare  Solutare  Solutare  Solutare   Solutare  Solutare  Solutare  Solutare  Solutare  Solutare  Solutare   Solutare  Solutare  Solutare  Solutare  Solutare  Solutare  Solutare
 
2014-01-29 05:01:39 AM  
his ideas are sound but not practical for the most part.

Yes, companies often put in too much substances that can, over certain quantities per day, become harmful. Yes, they will use certain fats and additives to enhance flavor that, below a certain level, are harmless, but by heavily advertising their foods and convincing the sheeple to consume them to make major profits, they can do more harm than good.

Then there are the companies who cheat on healthy foods, like Olive Oil. Many popular brands are cut with vegetable oil to (A) lighten the taste (B) extend the supply (C) make a bigger profit. So, folks who consume the adulterated oils are basically wasting their money and some of the vegetable oils can be high in undesirable saturated fats.

Consider also the companies who target their food products for the poor, like 'spiced chicken patties' which, when cooked, extrude a yellow grease. They use parts of the chicken usually sent to dog food companies, toss in fats and spices to enhance the flavors, along with sugars and salts. It's food to keep you from starving and it will taste fairly good but, it is not that good for you.

Especially since someone discovered you can add inert cellulose to a food product as a filler. It has no taste. Causes no harm. Provides no nutritional or caloric value. So, you get less 'real food' for your dollar.

From when I was a kid back in the 50's to now, we've discovered over 500 different things previously affecting food that were harmful, but no one realized this. The most known is the lead solder used in cans. Now, we use aluminum cans mostly. No one knew that corn syrup in place of granulated sugar was going to prove more harmful than real sugar, but it was introduced when the cost of sugar, due to political actions, was rising.

I've seen, since back then, people no longer coming down with many illnesses that used to be quite common. I've watched the life span of the average person increase and noticed that age related senile dementia has decreased in severity.

Since our population has more than doubled since then, we need to provide ample food, able to be processed and stored for months, if not years, without loosing much of the nutritional value. And a lot of it.

We've changed our society so people don't have much time to stand around fixing healthy, organic meals like grandma used to, so they grab canned goods and quickly make what they want. When they took out saturated fats from various processed meats, it changed the flavor. Companies had to regain it in order to keep sales up so most added in corn sugar -- (not the syrup) -- which promptly went up in price.

Over the decades, companies have worked hard to enhance the taste of their foods to appeal to folks. Ever had basic, home made tomato sauce without salt or a touch of sugar? It's bland as hell.

'Fresh' orange juice is usually gathered the year before being processed and shipped to stores. To preserve the millions of gallons, it's sealed in tanks filled with nitrogen. That robs it of much of it's flavor, so even most of the 'right-off-the-tree-fresh' flavor comes in a bag of additives dumped into the tanks prior to processing.

The ability to store food for long periods of time has been a boon to mankind.

I rarely see a can of food forgotten on the back of a pantry shelf, puffed up, lid ready to pop from the pressure of spoiled food inside but I used to see them in the late 50's.

A combination of fresh foods as well as processed is fine. Read the labels to decrease sugars and fats. Our society is no longer as physically active as back in the 60's, which means certain energy providing fats in foods now no longer are needed to provide power, but can cause weight gain and harm.

As a kid because I was very active, I ate ravenously and remained as skinny as a rail. In my 20s, the same thing. When I took jobs requiring less physical activity, I gained weight because I was conditioned to eat like a horse. Plus, by then fast food places had exploded onto the scene and were advertising like mad to get your money. So long as the food didn't outright kill you, people started swarming to the places because the stuff tasted good and they didn't have to make their own lunches anymore.

So, the Dr is partially right, but neglected to figure in the booming population, economical constraints, the rising costs of fresh foods and the diminish amount of good farm land.

I used to love Georgia Peaches bought off a truck from a farm. They were the size of soft balls, smelled heavenly, were soft and so juicy you had to eat them outside. Today, the trucks no longer come to sell the surplus and Georgia Peaches in the grocery stores are small, hard as rocks, not very juicy and nowhere as tasty.

They have to be picked green to have a shelf life. So, folks will turn to canned peaches. Good apples have exploded in cost, but here again, they tend to be hard, not as sweet as I recall and not as tasty.
We're still learning. It's going to take some time to clean up the food industry because much of what we thought was harmless that we added to preserve color and taste, 25 years down the road is turning out to be not so good.

Besides. Go to Whole Foods and pay two or three times the price of Organic food. Public will sell you healthy, high quality lettuce for a lot less that is not Organic and just as good for you.

There's a whole lot of factors that go into this thing that he hasn't fully considered. Yet, he is on the right track.
 
2014-01-29 05:02:48 AM  
Boloxor the Insipid:Who's the asshole, Soutare?

It's just a travesty that he did so much good and yet he lost his license for complete incompetence, and still won't sleep with you.

If it quacks like a quack...
 
2014-01-29 05:15:20 AM  

hardinparamedic: Boloxor the Insipid:Who's the asshole, Soutare?

It's just a travesty that he did so much good and yet he lost his license for complete incompetence, and still won't sleep with you.

If it quacks like a quack...


Deepak Chopra was a medical doctor who saved lives, then became an asshole quack.

You can be both a doctor *and* and asshole.
 
2014-01-29 05:57:50 AM  
given that I am sitting on a toilet pooping while reading this article and discussion Im getting a real kick.
 
2014-01-29 06:02:51 AM  
Oh wow, another facebook diet quack.
 
2014-01-29 06:21:21 AM  
Obvious tag on vacation?
 
2014-01-29 06:27:14 AM  

bunner: Like, eat food that like, just grows and stuff and not crap and it's better?

Goollll lee!

Whodathunk?


The average wage of a farmer is $24,000 and  there are about half a million farmers in the US. That is about 1%-2% of the population.

There are more jailers than farmers. There are more financial managers than farmers. There are more lawyers than farmers. There are more police officers than ... you get the idea.

Growing stuff is a low paying job done by a very small portion of the population.

http://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes_nat.htm#00-0000
 
2014-01-29 06:36:14 AM  

mr0x: bunner: Like, eat food that like, just grows and stuff and not crap and it's better?

Goollll lee!

Whodathunk?

The average wage of a farmer is $24,000 and  there are about half a million farmers in the US. That is about 1%-2% of the population.

There are more jailers than farmers. There are more financial managers than farmers. There are more lawyers than farmers. There are more police officers than ... you get the idea.

Growing stuff is a low paying job done by a very small portion of the population.

http://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes_nat.htm#00-0000


I have little doubt that the average farmer, when not trying to wriggle Monsanto's weenie out of his behind is struggling for the privilege of producing food.  They need a bail out.
 
2014-01-29 06:37:02 AM  

mr0x: bunner: Like, eat food that like, just grows and stuff and not crap and it's better?

Goollll lee!

Whodathunk?

The average wage of a farmer is $24,000 and  there are about half a million farmers in the US. That is about 1%-2% of the population.

There are more jailers than farmers. There are more financial managers than farmers. There are more lawyers than farmers. There are more police officers than ... you get the idea.

Growing stuff is a low paying job done by a very small portion of the population.

http://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes_nat.htm#00-0000


Maths is hard, huh?

The US population is roughly 320 million. Half a million people would be about one-sixth of one per cent. If you're going to pontificate, please at least get the basic maths straight.
 
2014-01-29 06:39:32 AM  

mr0x: The average wage of a farmer is $24,000 and  there are about half a million farmers in the US. That is about 1%-2% of the population.

I think you read your chart wrong


http://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes119013.htm

"Farmers, Ranchers, and Other Agricultural Managers" showed a mean annual income of $73,000.

I grew up, and live in, rural Kansas, and I've never met a poor farmer.
 
2014-01-29 06:42:02 AM  

AbuHashish: I thought cooking was processing. All foods are processed, otherwise it's just raw. Homemade Macaroni and cheese is still organic natural because of the butter and milk and salt.


you-keep-using-that-word.jpg
 
2014-01-29 06:42:31 AM  

log_jammin: I grew up, and live in, rural Kansas, and I've never met a poor farmer.


Nah, they usually kick ass all the way up until they are either sued by Monsanto, lose a whole crop or the bank decides that "three weeks late" doesn't git 'r done.  I don't doubt that the 24G number is close to aggregate net.
 
2014-01-29 06:44:05 AM  

Rik01: his ideas are sound but not practical for the most part.

Yes, companies often put in too much substances that can, over certain quantities per day, become harmful. Yes, they will use certain fats and additives to enhance flavor that, below a certain level, are harmless, but by heavily advertising their foods and convincing the sheeple to consume them to make major profits, they can do more harm than good.

Then there are the companies who cheat on healthy foods, like Olive Oil. Many popular brands are cut with vegetable oil to (A) lighten the taste (B) extend the supply (C) make a bigger profit. So, folks who consume the adulterated oils are basically wasting their money and some of the vegetable oils can be high in undesirable saturated fats.

Consider also the companies who target their food products for the poor, like 'spiced chicken patties' which, when cooked, extrude a yellow grease. They use parts of the chicken usually sent to dog food companies, toss in fats and spices to enhance the flavors, along with sugars and salts. It's food to keep you from starving and it will taste fairly good but, it is not that good for you.

Especially since someone discovered you can add inert cellulose to a food product as a filler. It has no taste. Causes no harm. Provides no nutritional or caloric value. So, you get less 'real food' for your dollar.

From when I was a kid back in the 50's to now, we've discovered over 500 different things previously affecting food that were harmful, but no one realized this. The most known is the lead solder used in cans. Now, we use aluminum cans mostly. No one knew that corn syrup in place of granulated sugar was going to prove more harmful than real sugar, but it was introduced when the cost of sugar, due to political actions, was rising.

I've seen, since back then, people no longer coming down with many illnesses that used to be quite common. I've watched the life span of the average person increase and noticed that age related senile ...


Massive increase in pesticide use and alteration to the basic genetic makeup of certain foods is something you may want to mention in a post that large. The reason a conventional head of lettuce is less preferable to an organic one is because of the poisonous chemical spray on the conventional lettuce---it seeps it and we end up eating it, even if that head of lettuce is washed. Because of the dangerous mixtures of poison allowed to be used today in order to keep bugs off the food, toxicity levels are gradually increasing.

A lot of that other stuff about processed food is true, though: much of it is an effort to keep profits high and still keep bellies full (well intended, perhaps, misguided at least, predatory at worst). Still, "living a fast lifestyle" is a choice. I find time every single night to cook a meal "just like grandma" and still have plenty of time to screw around.

/buy organic for what it doesn't have, not for what it has
//it's not always about the "superior texture and taste" (which is true of select organics, but not nearly as many as claimed)
 
2014-01-29 06:58:15 AM  

bunner: log_jammin: I grew up, and live in, rural Kansas, and I've never met a poor farmer.

Nah, they usually kick ass all the way up until they are either sued by Monsanto, lose a whole crop or the bank decides that "three weeks late" doesn't git 'r done.  I don't doubt that the 24G number is close to aggregate net.


just because that "feels" like it should be true, that doesn't make it true.

/in 2008 george bush fly to kansas to visit my home town for a fund raiser. well...he didn't come to raise funds in my home town, because it has a population  of less than 200 people. no instead he had a fundraiser of one of the farmers(I went to school with his kids(my entire grade had only 8-10 kids)). they have money.
 
2014-01-29 07:05:06 AM  

log_jammin: bunner: log_jammin: I grew up, and live in, rural Kansas, and I've never met a poor farmer.

Nah, they usually kick ass all the way up until they are either sued by Monsanto, lose a whole crop or the bank decides that "three weeks late" doesn't git 'r done.  I don't doubt that the 24G number is close to aggregate net.

just because that "feels" like it should be true, that doesn't make it true.

/in 2008 george bush fly to kansas to visit my home town for a fund raiser. well...he didn't come to raise funds in my home town, because it has a population  of less than 200 people. no instead he had a fundraiser of one of the farmers(I went to school with his kids(my entire grade had only 8-10 kids)). they have money.


So, anecdotes are like "feels likes"?
 
2014-01-29 07:08:09 AM  

bunner: So, anecdotes are like "feels likes"?


I guess you missed the link showing the mean income as 73K a year.

here. let me post it again so you can ignore it again.

http://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes119013.htm

also you seem unaware of crop insurance, and government guaranteed agriculture loans.
 
2014-01-29 07:12:26 AM  

log_jammin: mr0x: The average wage of a farmer is $24,000 and  there are about half a million farmers in the US. That is about 1%-2% of the population.

I think you read your chart wrong

http://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes119013.htm

"Farmers, Ranchers, and Other Agricultural Managers" showed a mean annual income of $73,000.

I grew up, and live in, rural Kansas, and I've never met a poor farmer.


Nice try. That category of "Farmers, Ranchers, and Other Agricultural Managers" has about 4,000 people in it.

The category with half a million farmers is this one below.

http://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes450000.htm
 
2014-01-29 07:14:01 AM  

maram500: Maths is hard, huh?

The US population is roughly 320 million. Half a million people would be about one-sixth of one per cent. If you're going to pontificate, please at least get the basic maths straight.


Yeah, you're right. My math was bad there. 1/6% it is.
 
2014-01-29 07:14:32 AM  

log_jammin: bunner: So, anecdotes are like "feels likes"?

I guess you missed the link showing the mean income as 73K a year.

here. let me post it again so you can ignore it again.

http://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes119013.htm

also you seem unaware of crop insurance, and government guaranteed agriculture loans.

I'm gonna save everybody some trouble.  The nanosecond you get all "Nuh uh, no, see it's like this, like this, stupid, because it is and I know because..." and start peacocking for your invisible fan base in the peanut gallery, you  have blown it.  Sh*t the bedding, screwed the schnauzer.  Finis.  Über mit.  Because it becomes very obvious that it's the reason you use this website.  Which means you have no views, per se, you're just here to tell everybody how clueless they are compared to you.  And then you get a "hit" and you bite down on that like a dog on a rag.  And there you are, calling people stupid and uninformed from the bus stop you got off at in '02 that says "AOL".  Cause that's how clapped out trolling, waxing superior and generally trying to piss from a great height on a web forum is.  It's that last decade.  And it makes the people who endlessly flog it the pile of dog crap you have to walk around in the park.  Ha ha.
 
2014-01-29 07:14:58 AM  

electricjebus: log_jammin: "We physicians with all our experience and authority" he writes, "often acquire a rather large selfishness that tends to make it hard to accept we are wrong. So, here it is. I openly admit to being mistaken. As a heart surgeon with 25 years experience, having done more than 5,000 open-heart surgeries, today is my day to right the wrong with medical and scientific proof."

Between 2000 and 2008, Lundell was subjected to five regulatory actions by the Arizona Medical Board:

In 2000, the board concluded that his postoperative management of a patient who had died following carotid artery surgery was substandard and insufficiently documented. He was censured for unprofessional conduct, assessed a $2,500 civil penalty, and placed on probation during which he was required to take continuing medical education courses in carotid artery surgery and medical recordkeeping. He was also required to submit to monitoring of his patient records [4].

In 2003, the board noted that 13 out of 20 charts reviewed by the consultant were deficient because they did not include adequate initial evaluations of the patients. Lundell was censured again and was placed on probation that included quarterly chart reviews [5].

In 2004, the board found fault with his management of two patients and concluded that his records for these patients were inadequate. He was reprimanded and ordered to serve two more years of probation, during which he was required to undergo an extensive evaluation of his fitness to continue practicing medicine [6].

In 2006, the board sent him an advisory letter for failure to maintain adequate records and for a technical surgical error [7].

In 2008, the board reviewed Lundell's management of several more patients and revoked his medical license. The board's order mentioned that the board was investigating his care of seven patients because the Banner Desert Medical Hospital had suspended Lundell's surgical privileges [7].

Financial and Legal Trouble

Lundell also ran i ...

Well... that settles that.


It does. You can't believe ANYTHING the guys says.

BTW, the guy also believes that man-made climate change is going to ruin the planet.
 
2014-01-29 07:17:31 AM  

mr0x: Nice try. That category of "Farmers, Ranchers, and Other Agricultural Managers" has about 4,000 people in it.


and?

you said "farmers", not "farm workers".

farm workers aren't paid shiat. it's why many of them are migrant workers. Farmers, are a completely different thing. they own hundreds or thousands of acres of land, get dirt cheap govenrment loans, and own tractors that can cost hundreds of thousands of dollars.
 
2014-01-29 07:20:11 AM  

bunner: I'm gonna save everybody some trouble.  The nanosecond you get all "Nuh uh, no, see it's like this, like this, stupid, because it is and I know because..." and start peacocking for your invisible fan base in the peanut gallery, you  have blown it.  Sh*t the bedding, screwed the schnauzer.  Finis.  Über mit.  Because it becomes very obvious that it's the reason you use this website.  Which means you have no views, per se, you're just here to tell everybody how clueless they are compared to you.  And then you get a "hit" and you bite down on that like a dog on a rag.  And there you are, calling people stupid and uninformed from the bus stop you got off at in '02 that says "AOL".  Cause that's how clapped out trolling, waxing superior and generally trying to piss from a great height on a web forum is.  It's that last decade.  And it makes the people who endlessly flog it the pile of dog crap you have to walk around in the park.  Ha ha.


do you need an ointment?
 
2014-01-29 07:21:10 AM  

log_jammin: do you need an ointment?


Precisely.  Good example.   :  )

*toggles "show posts from ignored users" button*
 
2014-01-29 07:22:00 AM  

DrPainMD: It does. You can't believe ANYTHING the guys says.


why can't you believe anything Dr.  Stephen Barrett says?
 
2014-01-29 07:22:35 AM  

bunner: log_jammin: do you need an ointment?

Precisely.  Good example.   :  )

*toggles "show posts from ignored users" button*


the echo chamber says hi.
 
2014-01-29 07:24:00 AM  

Ruiizu: Massive increase in pesticide use and alteration to the basic genetic makeup of certain foods is something you may want to mention in a post that large. The reason a conventional head of lettuce is less preferable to an organic one is because of the poisonous chemical spray on the conventional lettuce---it seeps it and we end up eating it, even if that head of lettuce is washed. Because of the dangerous mixtures of poison allowed to be used today in order to keep bugs off the food, toxicity levels are gradually increasing.


Ooh, more pesticides and tampering with not just genetics, but basic genetics! Sounds scary!

Plants produce their own toxins if they aren't sprayed. You end up consuming quite a lot more because they can't be washed off. "Organic" allows for pesticides also, and not cuddly ones. They will kill you dead in sufficient quantity. Sufficient quantity being the key idea. You can ingest quite a lot more toxins without harm than what will kill off bugs.

You really ought to stop relying on Natural News and that ilk and instead read up on actual organic standards. A Google search on organic pesticides is also a good start.
 
2014-01-29 07:33:32 AM  
MMMM bacon.
 
2014-01-29 07:34:42 AM  

meat0918: Sinister?

Hawking your goods and services in exchange for something, in this case oodles and oodles of money, is as old a phenomenon as man himself, probably older.


He's sinister because he's hawking a book he wrote. God did that and look at all the trouble it caused.
 
2014-01-29 07:36:00 AM  

Lenny_da_Hog: Deepak Chopra


Whenever I hear his name, I think of people who say "D-bag" instead of douchebag, and then think a "D-pack" must be an entire package full of D-bags...
 
2014-01-29 07:37:44 AM  

log_jammin: Lenny_da_Hog: Now people think doctors are there to do what you tell them, instead of being highly educated and trained people who take care of problems the vast majority of people can't begin to understand.

Americans tend to believe that their opinion is just as valuable as the opinion of an expert in their field.

It's why we have anti vaccers and a global warming "debate". I even recall a guy on here who said that any scientific theory he read about that didn't make sense to him couldn't be true, since he's a really smart guy and all. therefore if he didn't understand it, it was a lie to deceive the public.


I think the idea of taking a pill to solve your medical problem is very attractive to everyone.  Instead of spending a half hour / meal preparing something healthy and delicious, it is easier to nuke some Mac & Cheese.  It is much easier to sit on your ass and play video games and masturbate to Duck Dynasty than it is to get outside and walk for 3/4 of an hour everyday.

The pill marketers shpeal works not because they're effectively selling the product.  It works because they're telling people what they want to hear.
 
2014-01-29 07:43:57 AM  

Muta: I think the idea of taking a pill to solve your medical problem is very attractive to everyone.  Instead of spending a half hour / meal preparing something healthy and delicious, it is easier to nuke some Mac & Cheese.  It is much easier to sit on your ass and play video games and masturbate to Duck Dynasty than it is to get outside and walk for 3/4 of an hour everyday.

The pill marketers shpeal works not because they're effectively selling the product.  It works because they're telling people what they want to hear.


yup.

my wife lost a bunch of weight a few years ago, and everyone kept asking her how she did it. the look of disappointment she got when she'd say "I started exercising and eating better" was kinda amusing.
 
2014-01-29 07:44:41 AM  
All this talk about his criminal history is just an ad hominem attack, and has nothing to do with the diet he recommends. Very low.
 
2014-01-29 07:55:15 AM  
But my grandmother is the one who introduced me to Miracle Whip, diet soda, candies and desserts with artificial sweeteners, and McDonald's.  So, if I'm following this guy's advice correctly, those things are all perfectly safe to eat, but bok choi, cherimoya, and chutney would be off limits.
 
2014-01-29 07:56:50 AM  
Just because a surgeon is good at cutting people open doesn't mean they're good at providing advice about diet or exercise. Look at Dr Oz as a prime example of a competent surgeon who promotes the most ridiculous woo on his show. In fact there are plenty of doctors who've turned away from evidence based medicine for quackery and woo, usually related to some book or website they happen to have a financial interest in.

I think I would be more persuaded by a website (of which there are many) which promotes healthy eating, prepared by and reviewed by dieticians and other medical practioners than I would someone who promotes simplistic and potentially dangerous advice and makes arguments from authority to promote his own book .
 
2014-01-29 07:58:41 AM  

jcmjx: All this talk about his criminal history is just an ad hominem attack, and has nothing to do with the diet he recommends. Very low.


An ad hominem argument is an appropriate response, as the doctor is not a nutritionist, yet positioning himself as an authority upon nutrition. This is called the argument from authority fallacy, a sibling of the ad hominem fallacy.

If you take nutrition advice from a surgical specialist, one only expects you hire a nutritionist to perform your next surgery, a plumber to fix your car, or an electrical engineer to broker your stocks.

That aside, there's nothing really inherently wrong about his advice until he starts recommending nutrition as a cure. Cutting out processed foods is not a new idea, nor a particularly harmful one.
 
2014-01-29 07:59:00 AM  
Anyone have that Onion article: "World Death rate holds steady at 100%"?
 
2014-01-29 08:00:58 AM  
Is the Obvious tag too obese to leave the house?
 
2014-01-29 08:03:45 AM  

Ruiizu: A lot of that other stuff about processed food is true, though: much of it is an effort to keep profits high and still keep bellies full (well intended, perhaps, misguided at least, predatory at worst). Still, "living a fast lifestyle" is a choice. I find time every single night to cook a meal "just like grandma" and still have plenty of time to screw around.


Very very true.  Of the 21 meals we eat a week, probably only one or two are processed.  Everything else is cooked just like grandma.  The time is available people just need to make the effort.  Crock-pots can be your friend.

How hard is it to make real oatmeal?  You start the water boiling and add the oats.  Put a lid on it and let it steep while you take your shower.  When you're done in the shower, the oatmeal is ready.  You get a breakfast 'just like grandma made' and its preparation took about the same amount of time out of your day as toasting an Eggo waffle.
 
2014-01-29 08:14:53 AM  

wildcardjack: I think he'd appreciate my "if in doubt eat a head of romaine" approach. If I find myself thinking about fast food I eat a headbof romaine, with maybe some Baco's and balsamic vinegar.


Enjoy your e. coli, dumbass.
 
2014-01-29 08:16:53 AM  
As opposed to unprocessed (unpreserved) food which had been quickly poisoning everyone for millenia.
 
2014-01-29 08:18:26 AM  

starsrift: An ad hominem argument is an appropriate response, as the doctor is not a nutritionist, yet positioning himself as an authority upon nutrition.


Nutritionists aren't qualified to talk about nutrition either. A dietician is and has the medical training, professional status and accreditation to back it up.

A nutritionist is anybody who wants to declare themselves an expert on nutrition whether they are or not. Many of them are naturally complete flakes. e.g. "Doctor" Gillian McKeith who bought her title and qualifications from a diploma mill.
 
2014-01-29 08:18:56 AM  
Sinister?
It's not like his ideas are out of left field
 
2014-01-29 08:22:42 AM  

drxym: starsrift: An ad hominem argument is an appropriate response, as the doctor is not a nutritionist, yet positioning himself as an authority upon nutrition.

Nutritionists aren't qualified to talk about nutrition either. A dietician is and has the medical training, professional status and accreditation to back it up.


Well, there's a bit of fine line I wasn't aware of. I bet a dietician gets really offended when they're referred to as a nutritionist, too.
 
2014-01-29 08:27:08 AM  
This is all nutrition 101 stuff.
 
2014-01-29 08:28:54 AM  
You have 2 options:
1) eat healthy, and die alone of old age, wheelchair bound due to a broken hip at 95, having your butt wiped by brown people who talk about you in their own language and steal your pills
2) go out in a bacon-fueled blaze of heart attack glory at 60 while nailing your 20-something mistress
 
2014-01-29 08:35:51 AM  

robohobo: Being alive is slowly poisoning everyone

- TO DEATH!!

(had to add a little dramatic redundancy)
 
2014-01-29 08:39:57 AM  

starsrift: Well, there's a bit of fine line I wasn't aware of. I bet a dietician gets really offended when they're referred to as a nutritionist, too.


I think it goes that dieticians are always nutritionists but the reverse does not hold. To be fair, there are reputable nutritionist courses and responsible nutritionists, but the problem is the term is not protected and is therefore frequently co-opted to promote quackery and woo.

I think it would be very important to study their qualifications and their promotional material extremely carefully
 
2014-01-29 08:40:08 AM  
I only drink fresh squeezed free range organic raw goat's milk, so I'm getting a kick of of this thread.
 
2014-01-29 08:40:42 AM  

Fafai: Boloxor the Insipid: Solutare: Wow, I can't believe assholes are defending this asshole.

Oh... wait. I guess I'm not surprised at all, actually.

Why is he ans 'asshole' Solutare?  He saved 5000 lives doing heart surgeries in his career.  How many lives have you saved Solutare?   Then, he wrote a book that says you should eat healthy food.
Here you are,Solutare, calling a total stranger an asshole on the basis of some crap you read on the internet.

Who's the asshole, Soutare?

Yeah, Solutare.

/ Solutare  Solutare  Solutare  Solutare  Solutare  Solutare  Solutar e Solutare  Solutare  Solutare  Solutare  Solutare  Solutare  Solutare   Solutare  Solutare  Solutare  Solutare  Solutare  Solutare  Solutare   Solutare  Solutare  Solutare  Solutare  Solutare  Solutare  Solutare   Solutare  Solutare  Solutare  Solutare  Solutare  Solutare  Solutare


static4.wikia.nocookie.net

Sollltare
 
2014-01-29 08:42:38 AM  

MemeSlave: You have 2 options:
1) eat healthy, and die alone of old age, wheelchair bound due to a broken hip at 95, having your butt wiped by brown people who talk about you in their own language and steal your pills
2) go out in a bacon-fueled blaze of heart attack glory at 60 while nailing your 20-something mistress


While wheel chair bound at 95, I am planning on threatening brown people with deportation unless they give me a BJ.
 
2014-01-29 08:45:31 AM  
Eating whole foods, healthy fats, grass-fed meat and poultry play a critical role for solid brain health.

Read more:  http://www.wtae.com/news/health/researchers-reveal-weapon-against-alz h eimers-disease/-/9680940/24163080/-/cb8dsmz/-/index.html#ixzz2rnLcqIPd
 
2014-01-29 08:46:26 AM  
Meanwhile in reality, life expectancy continues to rise, disease continues its decline.
 
2014-01-29 08:50:19 AM  

Russ1642: Meanwhile in reality, life expectancy continues to rise, disease continues its decline.


I know right, why bother to try and improve something that happens automatically?
 
2014-01-29 08:51:25 AM  
My daughter is a big proponent of this kind of nutrition. And it works for her wonderfully. She's in her mid-30s and looks 10 years less.

But  the advice "don't eat anything your grandmother wouldn't recognize as food" would be poison for her. Mom's diet consisted of some frozen food, deli ham, bourbon, and a pack a day of cigarettes.
 
2014-01-29 08:53:35 AM  
Processed food? Hah!
Try possessed food.
 
2014-01-29 08:55:45 AM  

GhostFish: Has there ever been a health related issue taken up by the Facebook gossip crowd that wasn't in the end at least 50% bullshiat?

Health advice from Facebook is literally folk medicine. You're likely to get the same results by burying half a potato under a full moon while wearing a bra on your head.


You can get some amazing results doing that.

i.imgur.com
 
2014-01-29 08:59:18 AM  

log_jammin: "We physicians with all our experience and authority" he writes, "often acquire a rather large selfishness that tends to make it hard to accept we are wrong. So, here it is. I openly admit to being mistaken. As a heart surgeon with 25 years experience, having done more than 5,000 open-heart surgeries, today is my day to right the wrong with medical and scientific proof."

Between 2000 and 2008, Lundell was subjected to five regulatory actions by the Arizona Medical Board:

In 2000, the board concluded that his postoperative management of a patient who had died following carotid artery surgery was substandard and insufficiently documented. He was censured for unprofessional conduct, assessed a $2,500 civil penalty, and placed on probation during which he was required to take continuing medical education courses in carotid artery surgery and medical recordkeeping. He was also required to submit to monitoring of his patient records [4].

In 2003, the board noted that 13 out of 20 charts reviewed by the consultant were deficient because they did not include adequate initial evaluations of the patients. Lundell was censured again and was placed on probation that included quarterly chart reviews [5].

In 2004, the board found fault with his management of two patients and concluded that his records for these patients were inadequate. He was reprimanded and ordered to serve two more years of probation, during which he was required to undergo an extensive evaluation of his fitness to continue practicing medicine [6].

In 2006, the board sent him an advisory letter for failure to maintain adequate records and for a technical surgical error [7].

In 2008, the board reviewed Lundell's management of several more patients and revoked his medical license. The board's order mentioned that the board was investigating his care of seven patients because the Banner Desert Medical Hospital had suspended Lundell's surgical privileges [7].


Financial and Legal Trouble

Lundell also ran i ...


Good ol' Quackwatch, calling snake oil salesmen out on their bullshiat.

Oh and not that you need any further convincing that this guy is a loon, but he's unsurprisingly also a member of the Association of American Physicians and Surgeons, a far-right lobbyist group disguised under an innocuous name that promotes anti-vaccination, HIV denialism, links between abortion and cancer, and various other crackpot theories. And RON PAUL and RAND PAUL are both members too.
 
2014-01-29 09:20:03 AM  
In California you would be amazed what it takes to get an irritated letter from the medical board. A ludicrous misdiagnosis or negligent treatment protocol resulting in death usually lands a doctor on probation (if the entire affair is well documented). The vast majority of negligent deaths go unreported.
Any person who is repeatedly under fire from the medical board is most assuredly NOT somebody to be trusted, professionally or otherwise.
 
2014-01-29 09:35:15 AM  

1. Put snakes on plane: Ruiizu: Massive increase in pesticide use and alteration to the basic genetic makeup of certain foods is something you may want to mention in a post that large. The reason a conventional head of lettuce is less preferable to an organic one is because of the poisonous chemical spray on the conventional lettuce---it seeps it and we end up eating it, even if that head of lettuce is washed. Because of the dangerous mixtures of poison allowed to be used today in order to keep bugs off the food, toxicity levels are gradually increasing.

Ooh, more pesticides and tampering with not just genetics, but basic genetics! Sounds scary!

Plants produce their own toxins if they aren't sprayed. You end up consuming quite a lot more because they can't be washed off. "Organic" allows for pesticides also, and not cuddly ones. They will kill you dead in sufficient quantity. Sufficient quantity being the key idea. You can ingest quite a lot more toxins without harm than what will kill off bugs.

You really ought to stop relying on Natural News and that ilk and instead read up on actual organic standards. A Google search on organic pesticides is also a good start.


I understand what you're saying---the green portion of potatoes is an easily visible form of natural pesticide that can kill you. Organic standards aren't 100% perfect either---but I don't eat just anything labeled organic. A lot of our organic food is grown at the local farm cooperative, where you can walk right out and see how they're growing things.

My point is not natural news fear mongering; it is instead that a ton of the so called "healthy" "whole" foods we're told to eat are often not so great due to how they've been treated. And it is FACT that the amount of pesticides being used on foods has increased DRAMATICALLY in the past few decades. Considering the danger of chemical build up in our bodies and the soil, I view this as a very bad trend.

Incidentally, my reference to genetically altered foods is more to express my disappointments in that area. Not only have they failed to deliver on promises (less pesticide use for higher yield) but they've also led to some highly corrupt (in my opinion) business and regulatory practices. I just don't believe in patenting food. Its wrong, to me, and dangerous.

/natural news isn't the only source of information
//countries don't ban our food for 100% economic/political reasons
 
2014-01-29 09:44:53 AM  
He's right about food, but the real problem us much more basic: too many calories and not enough exercise. Your heart is designed to function optimally when trained to periodic vigorous exercise.
 
2014-01-29 09:58:19 AM  

mr0x: log_jammin: mr0x: The average wage of a farmer is $24,000 and  there are about half a million farmers in the US. That is about 1%-2% of the population.

I think you read your chart wrong

http://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes119013.htm

"Farmers, Ranchers, and Other Agricultural Managers" showed a mean annual income of $73,000.

I grew up, and live in, rural Kansas, and I've never met a poor farmer.

Nice try. That category of "Farmers, Ranchers, and Other Agricultural Managers" has about 4,000 people in it.

The category with half a million farmers is this one below.

http://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes450000.htm


I think log_jammin got it right.

I don't see any farmers in your link:
Support Activities for Crop Production*  (240,370)
Logging  (29,130)
Miscellaneous Nondurable Goods Merchant Wholesalers  (19,140)
Support Activities for Animal Production (15,010)
Lawn and Garden Equipment and Supplies Stores (13,550)

*These aren't farmers. These are "Agricultural workers" (233,160). They're the ones making $9/hour.

Agricultural workers maintain the quality of farms, crops, and livestock by operating machinery and doing physical labor under the supervision of farmers, ranchers, and other agricultural managers.
 
2014-01-29 10:01:19 AM  

starsrift: jcmjx: All this talk about his criminal history is just an ad hominem attack, and has nothing to do with the diet he recommends. Very low.

An ad hominem argument is an appropriate response, as the doctor is not a nutritionist, yet positioning himself as an authority upon nutrition. This is called the argument from authority fallacy, a sibling of the ad hominem fallacy.


I was talking about drudging up his criminal history, not his credentials. Still, it benefits no one to dismiss a claim based on the mouth it comes out of.
 
2014-01-29 10:16:31 AM  

neversubmit: Russ1642: Meanwhile in reality, life expectancy continues to rise, disease continues its decline.

I know right, why bother to try and improve something that happens automatically?



I think you missed his point. If his thesis is that processed food is unhealthy (or even 'poison'), then he needs to explain the fact that there's a positive correlation between increased consumption of processed food and increased lifespan. Yes, there are confounders, but when you see large amounts of evidence in the opposite direction of your thesis, you need to address it.

I would also like to see a stronger argument than:

There is but one answer to quieting inflammation," Lundell writes, "and that is returning to foods closer to their natural state."

/Side rant, as someone who's done a little looking into inflammation, here's a problems with some of the current research on the subject:

CRP, a measure of inflammation, is not routinely measured in the US, where most of these studies have taken place. It's usually measured only when the doctor thinks something is wrong. Inflammation is a common result of a number of things going wrong (cancer, diabetes, infection, etc.). Because of this, it is very easy to draw a cross-sectional correlation between poor health and inflammation; get a few patients in poor health and a few healthy patients, measure their CRP, and blam, p<0.05 and publication.

The only way to convincingly show that inflammation leads to health problems would be to perform a large-scale study that routinely measured CRP (or some other measure of inflammation) and showing that elevated inflammation levels happen before the other indicators of patient health  happen (e.g. lowering of GFR indicating kidney disease, or rise of HbA1c indicating diabetes). Maybe this has been done, but I've seen too many studies where the measurement is effectively cross-sectional (I'm looking at you, non-lagged time-dependent survival analyses!).

//A cross-sectional analysis of Miami would show that people there tend to be born Cuban and die Jewish.
 
2014-01-29 10:30:59 AM  

HindiDiscoMonster: Rules to live by:

326. If they are selling something related to the advice they are giving, you can ignore them.


/This message brought to you by the letter A, the numbers 3, 2, and 6, and common sense.


We statisticians routinely charge for our advice. Ignore statisticians' advice on your study design at your peril.

/Wasn't involved in that one, but feel sorry for whoever tried to save a few bucks on the sample size only to wind up wasting several hundred million to get a p value of 0.11 . . .
 
2014-01-29 10:33:02 AM  

draypresct: neversubmit: Russ1642: Meanwhile in reality, life expectancy continues to rise, disease continues its decline.

I know right, why bother to try and improve something that happens automatically?


I think you missed his point. If his thesis is that processed food is unhealthy (or even 'poison'), then he needs to explain the fact that there's a positive correlation between increased consumption of processed food and increased lifespan. Yes, there are confounders, but when you see large amounts of evidence in the opposite direction of your thesis, you need to address it.

I would also like to see a stronger argument than:

There is but one answer to quieting inflammation," Lundell writes, "and that is returning to foods closer to their natural state."

/Side rant, as someone who's done a little looking into inflammation, here's a problems with some of the current research on the subject:

CRP, a measure of inflammation, is not routinely measured in the US, where most of these studies have taken place. It's usually measured only when the doctor thinks something is wrong. Inflammation is a common result of a number of things going wrong (cancer, diabetes, infection, etc.). Because of this, it is very easy to draw a cross-sectional correlation between poor health and inflammation; get a few patients in poor health and a few healthy patients, measure their CRP, and blam, p<0.05 and publication.

The only way to convincingly show that inflammation leads to health problems would be to perform a large-scale study that routinely measured CRP (or some other measure of inflammation) and showing that elevated inflammation levels happen before the other indicators of patient health  happen (e.g. lowering of GFR indicating kidney disease, or rise of HbA1c indicating diabetes). Maybe this has been done, but I've seen too many studies where the measurement is effectively cross-sectional (I'm looking at you, non-lagged time-dependent survival analyses!).

//A cross-sectional analy ...


Wow! That was very informative, thank you. <-(no sarcasm) I was just being snarky with Russ1642.
 
2014-01-29 10:42:29 AM  

neversubmit: Wow! That was very informative, thank you. <-(no sarcasm) I was just being snarky with Russ1642.


No problem. Thanks for clarifying.

/I tend to get pedantic on these topics.
 
2014-01-29 10:43:45 AM  

HindiDiscoMonster: log_jammin: "We physicians with all our experience and authority" he writes, "often acquire a rather large selfishness that tends to make it hard to accept we are wrong. So, here it is. I openly admit to being mistaken. As a heart surgeon with 25 years experience, having done more than 5,000 open-heart surgeries, today is my day to right the wrong with medical and scientific proof."

Between 2000 and 2008, Lundell was subjected to five regulatory actions by the Arizona Medical Board:

In 2000, the board concluded that his postoperative management of a patient who had died following carotid artery surgery was substandard and insufficiently documented. He was censured for unprofessional conduct, assessed a $2,500 civil penalty, and placed on probation during which he was required to take continuing medical education courses in carotid artery surgery and medical recordkeeping. He was also required to submit to monitoring of his patient records [4].

In 2003, the board noted that 13 out of 20 charts reviewed by the consultant were deficient because they did not include adequate initial evaluations of the patients. Lundell was censured again and was placed on probation that included quarterly chart reviews [5].

In 2004, the board found fault with his management of two patients and concluded that his records for these patients were inadequate. He was reprimanded and ordered to serve two more years of probation, during which he was required to undergo an extensive evaluation of his fitness to continue practicing medicine [6].

In 2006, the board sent him an advisory letter for failure to maintain adequate records and for a technical surgical error [7].

In 2008, the board reviewed Lundell's management of several more patients and revoked his medical license. The board's order mentioned that the board was investigating his care of seven patients because the Banner Desert Medical Hospital had suspended Lundell's surgical privileges [7].


Financial and Legal Trouble

Lundell also ran i ...

I'm guessing you didn't bother to read the article... as it was plainly stated in the article that he has had quite a bit of legal trouble.


If you had read the article you would have seen that my source was also given in the article.
 
2014-01-29 10:51:37 AM  

MemeSlave: You have 2 options:
1) eat healthy, and die alone of old age, wheelchair bound due to a broken hip at 95, having your butt wiped by brown people who talk about you in their own language and steal your pills
2) go out in a bacon-fueled blaze of heart attack glory at 60 while nailing your 20-something mistress


If only that were true.  As any insurance company knows, you are far more likely in any given year not to die from obesity, heart disease and diabetes but instead stick around and cost a boat load of money in health and disabilities costs from all the complications.  This year's bad back is joined by next years bad knees, followed by failing eyesight, worn out ankles (welcome to scooterville!), kidney failure, asthma, gout, sleep apnoea, liver disease, nerve damage and amputation, stroke, and of course, heart attack, which more often than not is not fatal.

While some of this will be in the future for anyone, your diet and exercise regimen largely determines whether you start down this path at age 45 or at age 70.
 
2014-01-29 10:57:40 AM  
This guy may be a douche, but he's quite right.
 
2014-01-29 11:19:15 AM  

RobSeace: Lenny_da_Hog: Deepak Chopra

Whenever I hear his name, I think of people who say "D-bag" instead of douchebag, and then think a "D-pack" must be an entire package full of D-bags...


They sell them at Sam's Club.

jcmjx: starsrift: jcmjx: All this talk about his criminal history is just an ad hominem attack, and has nothing to do with the diet he recommends. Very low.

An ad hominem argument is an appropriate response, as the doctor is not a nutritionist, yet positioning himself as an authority upon nutrition. This is called the argument from authority fallacy, a sibling of the ad hominem fallacy.

I was talking about drudging up his criminal history, not his credentials. Still, it benefits no one to dismiss a claim based on the mouth it comes out of.


Sure it does. Why encourage people to take charge of their own health and well being? That's some mighty suspicious behavior; he's obviously a traitor to his colleagues.
 
2014-01-29 01:24:18 PM  

HindiDiscoMonster: Rules to live by:

326. If they are selling something related to the advice they are giving, you can ignore them.


/This message brought to you by the letter A, the numbers 3, 2, and 6, and common sense.


I love guys like you in my real estate practice.  They're the ones who come to me AFTER they've declined to pay me $750 to review all the documentation for their home purchase, and now have $750,000 at risk, because they signed something they shouldn't, and skipped the home inspection.

Not saying this guy's not a quack... but most Americans could probably eat less processed food.  Or exercise more.  Or SOMETHING...most folks were NOT this obese when I was a kid.
 
2014-01-29 01:24:57 PM  

draypresct: neversubmit: Russ1642: Meanwhile in reality, life expectancy continues to rise, disease continues its decline.

I know right, why bother to try and improve something that happens automatically?


I think you missed his point. If his thesis is that processed food is unhealthy (or even 'poison'), then he needs to explain the fact that there's a positive correlation between increased consumption of processed food and increased lifespan. Yes, there are confounders, but when you see large amounts of evidence in the opposite direction of your thesis, you need to address it.

I would also like to see a stronger argument than:

There is but one answer to quieting inflammation," Lundell writes, "and that is returning to foods closer to their natural state."

/Side rant, as someone who's done a little looking into inflammation, here's a problems with some of the current research on the subject:

CRP, a measure of inflammation, is not routinely measured in the US, where most of these studies have taken place. It's usually measured only when the doctor thinks something is wrong. Inflammation is a common result of a number of things going wrong (cancer, diabetes, infection, etc.). Because of this, it is very easy to draw a cross-sectional correlation between poor health and inflammation; get a few patients in poor health and a few healthy patients, measure their CRP, and blam, p<0.05 and publication.

The only way to convincingly show that inflammation leads to health problems would be to perform a large-scale study that routinely measured CRP (or some other measure of inflammation) and showing that elevated inflammation levels happen before the other indicators of patient health  happen (e.g. lowering of GFR indicating kidney disease, or rise of HbA1c indicating diabetes). Maybe this has been done, but I've seen too many studies where the measurement is effectively cross-sectional (I'm looking at you, non-lagged time-dependent survival analyses!).

//A cross-sectional analy ...


Interesting, thanks.
 
2014-01-29 01:53:38 PM  

Lenny_da_Hog: hardinparamedic: Boloxor the Insipid:Who's the asshole, Soutare?

It's just a travesty that he did so much good and yet he lost his license for complete incompetence, and still won't sleep with you.

If it quacks like a quack...

Deepak Chopra was a medical doctor who saved lives, then became an asshole quack.

You can be both a doctor *and* and asshole.


Wow, I didn't know that hack was a medical doctor. Thought he was a physicist or something.
 
2014-01-29 03:20:58 PM  

Muta: Ruiizu: A lot of that other stuff about processed food is true, though: much of it is an effort to keep profits high and still keep bellies full (well intended, perhaps, misguided at least, predatory at worst). Still, "living a fast lifestyle" is a choice. I find time every single night to cook a meal "just like grandma" and still have plenty of time to screw around.

Very very true.  Of the 21 meals we eat a week, probably only one or two are processed.  Everything else is cooked just like grandma.  The time is available people just need to make the effort.  Crock-pots can be your friend.

How hard is it to make real oatmeal?  You start the water boiling and add the oats.  Put a lid on it and let it steep while you take your shower.  When you're done in the shower, the oatmeal is ready.  You get a breakfast 'just like grandma made' and its preparation took about the same amount of time out of your day as toasting an Eggo waffle.



Exactly, unfortunately most people americans are as good at managing their time as they are at managing their money.

Even so, there is very little "Hurr durr it's cheaper to eat McDonalds than it is to shop at the grocery store" in this thread.  Fark, I am disappoint.
 
2014-01-29 03:25:13 PM  
Yet another quack says something stupid, but repeatable. News at 11.
 
2014-01-29 04:04:36 PM  
Eating processed foods makes me Roundup Ready!
 
2014-01-29 04:11:13 PM  

draypresct: CRP, a measure of inflammation, is not routinely measured in the US, where most of these studies have taken place. It's usually measured only when the doctor thinks something is wrong. Inflammation is a common result of a number of things going wrong (cancer, diabetes, infection, etc.). Because of this, it is very easy to draw a cross-sectional correlation between poor health and inflammation; get a few patients in poor health and a few healthy patients, measure their CRP, and blam, p<0.05 and publication.


The problem is that to the trained eye, CRP alone is more of a measure of some kind of inflammatory process, and not very specific or sensitive for any kind of specific condition.
 
2014-01-29 05:01:33 PM  

hardinparamedic: draypresct: CRP, a measure of inflammation, is not routinely measured in the US, where most of these studies have taken place. It's usually measured only when the doctor thinks something is wrong. Inflammation is a common result of a number of things going wrong (cancer, diabetes, infection, etc.). Because of this, it is very easy to draw a cross-sectional correlation between poor health and inflammation; get a few patients in poor health and a few healthy patients, measure their CRP, and blam, p<0.05 and publication.

The problem is that to the trained eye, CRP alone is more of a measure of some kind of inflammatory process, and not very specific or sensitive for any kind of specific condition.


Could be. Medical practice differs. In some European dialysis facilities, it's routinely monitored; in the US, it's not. I don't know whether nephrologists in Europe are just looking for general early warming signs of an infection (e.g. Catheter infection), or if they think they're getting something more out of the CRP.
 
2014-01-29 09:01:01 PM  
Eat good food, kids.
 
2014-01-29 09:38:25 PM  
Yes. Good food.
 
2014-01-29 09:45:27 PM  
 I always trust the nertjobs
 
2014-01-30 03:32:56 AM  

jcmjx: starsrift: jcmjx: All this talk about his criminal history is just an ad hominem attack, and has nothing to do with the diet he recommends. Very low.

An ad hominem argument is an appropriate response, as the doctor is not a nutritionist, yet positioning himself as an authority upon nutrition. This is called the argument from authority fallacy, a sibling of the ad hominem fallacy.

I was talking about drudging up his criminal history, not his credentials. Still, it benefits no one to dismiss a claim based on the mouth it comes out of.


Actually, since he suggests his diet is a cure for heart disease, as I stated in the part of my post that you clipped (perhaps thinking only of brevity), it absolutely benefits folks to discuss his criminal history and medical disbarment. It's the age-old story of snake-oil salesmen. They're not doing any harm, just fleecing money from rubes - until they get people believing their bullshiat.
 
2014-01-30 11:54:37 AM  

Solutare: Wow, I can't believe assholes are defending this asshole.

Oh... wait. I guess I'm not surprised at all, actually.


Have to separate the message from the messenger in this case. I don't think it's controversial these days that insulin spikes aren't good for you. And inflammation, especially chronic inflammation, is increasingly seen as more of a risk factor than clogging of the arteries.

My biggest problem with his viewpoint is that he assumes that low fat automatically means gorging on simple carbs. A lot of us on low fat diets also restrict starch and sugars - we're not eating three bowls of Cocoa Pebbles for breakfast every day. So saying "low fat is bad" is kind of stupid.
 
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