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(The Big Story)   NEWS: Attorney of death row inmate executed last week suspended and under investigation. FARK: Guards say attorney coached client to "make a show of his death"   (bigstory.ap.org) divider line 43
    More: Followup, death row, Ohio, convicts, OPD, The Columbus Dispatch, point guards  
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8929 clicks; posted to Main » on 28 Jan 2014 at 12:22 PM (23 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-01-28 10:41:07 AM
7 votes:
Protected by attorney-client privilege, and in any case, "making a show of your death" as a way to protest capital punishment is protected political speech.
2014-01-28 01:16:31 PM
3 votes:

dittybopper: devildog123: You know, his defense attorneys weren't arguing that he didn't do it, just that the way they were killing him sucked and was painful.  If he actually did what they said, he raped and murdered a young, pregnant woman.  I have a fairly painless way to get rid of these people if that's the only thing that is bothering them.

I don't even particularly care if the way they killed him sucked and was painful, so long as it wasn't some egregiously drawn out torture session.

A few minutes of painful existence before you actually die?  No different than many heart attack victims.  Doesn't seem particularly cruel or unusual.


It goes to the heart of why we execute criminals in the first place, though.  Capital punishment is supposed to be a deterrent, not punishment for punishment's sake.  Now, granted, I've never been killed, so I can't say this with ABSOLUTE certainty, but dying, period, is all the deterrent I need to never commit a capital offense.

We can argue back and forth all day long about the merits of capital punishment itself, but this is--or at least should be--indisputable: not reveling in, or not being indifferent to, the pain of our society's rulebreakers when we punish them is what should separate us from those rulebreakers.
2014-01-28 12:30:20 PM
3 votes:
I keep asking this and not getting an answer.  When you take your pet to the vet it takes about 15 seconds and they die with a smile and don't seem uncomfortable at all.  It took this dude 20 minutes+ to suffocate.  What are they teaching at vet school that these folks are ignoring?
2014-01-28 12:26:18 PM
3 votes:
Doesn't lethal injection render the person unconscious very early in the process?
2014-01-28 12:23:42 PM
3 votes:
Theaetetus:
That's what the pro-death penalty people would have us believe, yes. However, we  do know this: either it was actual writhing in pain, or the tranquilizer  failed such that he could do "intentional theatrics".
In other words, on the surface, it looks like this rebuts the people opposed to the death penalty... but in actuality, it only harms the argument that the drugs were effective at sedating him.


I'm anti-death penalty across the board, but let me tell you something:  I don't really care if it hurts.  10 minutes or so of pain, yeah whatever, not a huge deal.  The waiting, the endless appeals, the dates coming and sometimes going, that's FAR more torturous than a few minutes of discomfort and pain.  That and a whole host of other reasons I oppose it.  If we MUST have the death penalty, I think it should have an even higher burden of proof, only the clearly guilty beyond any shadow of a doubt should be taken to the gallows and hanged immediately after that guilt is determined.
2014-01-28 11:08:55 AM
3 votes:
Attorney of death row inmate executed last week

That's a good start. What happened to the guy on death row?
2014-01-28 01:02:38 PM
2 votes:
I swear everyone involved here is stupid.

To the anti-death penalty people - The drugs used are the same ones used during surgery.  10 minutes in he wasn't struggling for breath, he was unconscious.  When a brain dead person on life support makes an audible gasp or something like it, the doctors explain it's a reflex, not a conscious breath.  So no, this guy making a noise 10 minutes later doesn't mean he suffocated to death.  He didn't suffer, he had the same medications surgery patients get.  He died quite peacefully.

To the pro-death penalty people - The drugs used are the same ones used during surgery.  10 minutes in he wasn't acting, he was unconscious.  When a brain dead person on life support makes an audible gasp or something like it, the doctors explain it's a reflex, not a conscious breath.  So no, this guy making a noise 10 minutes later doesn't mean he was acting.

For farks sake people.  Lots of reasons to be pro or anti death penalty.  But stop making shiat up.
2014-01-28 12:41:55 PM
2 votes:
So what if he did?

If it took 20 minutes to kill him, someone did their job terribly wrong.

// In this case, good. But in too many cases I don't trust the jury and/or prosecutors.
2014-01-28 12:41:18 PM
2 votes:

dittybopper: Protected by attorney-client privilege, and in any case, "making a show of your death" as a way to protest capital punishment is protected political speech.


Agreed. and the investigation has already closed for lack of evidence that actually happened

furthermore not sure how the inmate who was supposed to be paralyzed and completely sedated by the fatal drugs could have "made a show" of anything.

 IF watching the man die bothers somebody, maybe they should reconsider their stance on the Death penalty .  In my opinion, backed up by DP cases I have helped handle,Capital Punishment is nothing more than a fancy name for killing another human being deliberately cause it made you feel good.  It serves no financial, or legal, or even deterrent purpose, and is nothing more than revenge.
2014-01-28 12:41:16 PM
2 votes:
That poor attorney. First executed and then suspended and investigated.

What's next: killing his firstborn?
2014-01-28 12:29:15 PM
2 votes:

generallyso: Doesn't lethal injection render the person unconscious very early in the process?


Yeah if it was even possible for the guy to follow instructions then wouldn't that kind of be admitting that the drug cocktail wasn't appropriate?
2014-01-28 10:51:08 AM
2 votes:

dittybopper: Protected by attorney-client privilege, and in any case, "making a show of your death" as a way to protest capital punishment is protected political speech.


The whole thing is hearsay anyways.
2014-01-28 10:40:37 AM
2 votes:
You know, his defense attorneys weren't arguing that he didn't do it, just that the way they were killing him sucked and was painful.  If he actually did what they said, he raped and murdered a young, pregnant woman.  I have a fairly painless way to get rid of these people if that's the only thing that is bothering them.
2014-01-28 04:42:53 PM
1 votes:

skozlaw: lennavan: At this point, I have provided 3 citations to back my arguments


No, you didn't.

Yes I did.  My claim:

lennavan: The drugs used are the same ones used during surgery


Your reply:

skozlaw: you supported absolutely none of your claims with citations


My citation:

lennavan: Midazolam is used to produce sleepiness or drowsiness and to relieve anxiety before surgery
http://www.mayoclinic.org/drugs-supplements/midazolam-injection-rout e/ description/drg-20064813


You dick.

skozlaw: You've gotten yourself so twisted up in your own bullshiat you don't even know what we're talking about anymore. Maybe next time it would be in your interest to spend less time exercising your brain on inane insults and a little more time following the thread of the discussion.


YOU STILL HAVENT PROVIDED A SINGLE CITATION YOURSELF.  But you keep biatching about mine not being good enough.

You dick.
2014-01-28 02:11:38 PM
1 votes:

dittybopper: Mine is detailed, but I don't think cruel. In fact, it's as painless and quick as it could possibly be.

/Not really a fantasy, either.


You daydream about killing people. Think about that.
2014-01-28 01:50:50 PM
1 votes:

CalvinMorallis: It goes to the heart of why we execute criminals in the first place, though.  Capital punishment is supposed to be a deterrent, not punishment for punishment's sake.  Now, granted, I've never been killed, so I can't say this with ABSOLUTE certainty, but dying, period, is all the deterrent I need to never commit a capital offense.


If someone given the death penalty is guilty (as opposed simply to being poor and black) then deterrence has, by definition, failed.
gja [TotalFark]
2014-01-28 01:46:00 PM
1 votes:

dittybopper: Oh, I suppose you could put them in permanent isolation at a supermax prison and drive them aslowly insane, but that seems more cruel than simply killing them.


THIS^^^^^

Further reinforcement on why I have you faved. I would rather get offed than be in a 5x5 forever.
2014-01-28 01:45:38 PM
1 votes:

lennavan: I swear everyone involved here is stupid.

To the anti-death penalty people - The drugs used are the same ones used during surgery.  10 minutes in he wasn't struggling for breath, he was unconscious.  When a brain dead person on life support makes an audible gasp or something like it, the doctors explain it's a reflex, not a conscious breath.  So no, this guy making a noise 10 minutes later doesn't mean he suffocated to death.  He didn't suffer, he had the same medications surgery patients get.  He died quite peacefully.

To the pro-death penalty people - The drugs used are the same ones used during surgery.  10 minutes in he wasn't acting, he was unconscious.  When a brain dead person on life support makes an audible gasp or something like it, the doctors explain it's a reflex, not a conscious breath.  So no, this guy making a noise 10 minutes later doesn't mean he was acting.

For farks sake people.  Lots of reasons to be pro or anti death penalty.  But stop making shiat up.


The first time I read the story of him gasping for breath so long after the drugs were administered I just assumed it was reflex.  I've seen enough videos on LiveLeak of the exact same type of reflex...  And in some of those videos the majority of the brain of the featured individual was several feet from the body so there was no question that they were quite dead.   But what remained of the body was still running on autopilot and attempting to gasp for breath.

As far as capital punishment goes I don't understand why someone who raped and murdered a pregnant newlywed does not get tossed feet first into a wood chipper minutes after the gavel bangs with a guilty conviction.
2014-01-28 01:44:04 PM
1 votes:

lennavan: Do I really need to?


Yes, that's how arguments work. If you make a claim, it's your job to support it. If you refuse to support it, it is fair for everyone else to write it off without any further consideration. You are obligated to support your own arguments, everybody else is not obligated to seek support for them.

Your way would be stupid since anybody adhering to it could just argue for eternity that they're not wrong, everybody else just isn't finding the evidence properly.

lennavan: Right. Some people drink alcohol and get drunk, others suffocate, some still become super strong and many alcohol has no effect on. Drinking definitely has different effects on different people. Good example.


Indeed. In fact, it's one of the best examples of hormesis, which is itself a great example of a non-linear dose-response where the effects at one dosage can be wildly different at another dosage even to the point that a low level is beneficial while a high level is outright destructive.

Not that I think you have the slightest idea of what any of that means, based on your prior comments, but now you can go inform yourself, at least of the basis, and perhaps come back with an argument that makes some measure of sense.
Although I somehow doubt you'll do any of that since it seems you've decided instead to just wail and gnash your teeth based on how you imagine the world works rather than bothering to learn about how it really does work in this instance.
2014-01-28 01:41:28 PM
1 votes:

Magorn: How many of them are old enough to connect the crime with the execution?


I don't support the death penalty, but the deterrerent is not for the defendant, it is for others who see that the death penalty is a crappy way to go.
2014-01-28 01:41:10 PM
1 votes:

generallyso: Doesn't lethal injection render the person unconscious very early in the process?


Yes, IF it is done in a professional and competent way.

But in this case however, we had a penal system Hell-bent on murdering some people even if the drug companies boycotted them, so they had Beavis & Butthead working the buttons.

"Whoah! uh huh huh huh. Look at him gasp, or something. uh huh huh huh. huh huh"

"Yeah! Hmhh heh heh heh heh. Now he's moving up and down. Push another button Butthead. Push em! PUSH EM! BOoOOoOIiiINNNNNnNGGGG!!Mh heh ehehehehheheheehe....!"
2014-01-28 01:37:25 PM
1 votes:
Who cares that he suffered? I'm fairly sure he wasn't concerned about cruel and unusual when he was raping and killing that girl. Think about what horrors the girl was going through during the ordeal. And the bastard lived decades after he killed her. No sympathy for him.
2014-01-28 01:35:52 PM
1 votes:

CrazyCracka420: I tend to think this would be the most humane way to go (if done correctly):


Head lives on for a long-ish time.  There is evidence of conscious action of a severed head from a guillotine for up to 20 seconds or so, and the amount of time the severed head can still perceive their surroundings is likely to be even longer.
2014-01-28 01:33:13 PM
1 votes:

CalvinMorallis: Capital punishment is supposed to be a deterrent, not punishment for punishment's sake.


No, it isn't.

The purpose of any punishment isn't to deter, per se.  The honest and moral people don't need such things to keep them on the straight and narrow, and the people that are liable to commit crimes generally don't think about the potential consequences of their actions in the first place.

Certainly, there is very little evidence that increased penalties lower crime rates via deterrence, and some evidence that they lower crime rates by removing those people who are predisposed to commit crimes from society for a longer period.

The purpose of all legal punishments, as least as far as incarceration goes, is to remove a dangerous person from society.   We make some effort to "rehabilitate" those who we feel can be rehabilitated, and sometimes it actually works for non-violent criminals (but rarely for the really violent ones), but that's a secondary consideration.

I don't know where this idea that a prison sentence or the death penalty is supposed to be a deterrent came from, but no matter what you feel the answer is, it's the wrong question in the first place.

Violent criminals (the type that get the death penalty), almost by definition, have poor impulse control.  They live in the moment.  They might plan a crime, but they don't look towards the future consequences of getting caught, going to trial, and being convicted and punished.

They just don't think that far ahead.

So the idea of any particular set of legal punishments being a deterrent to that sort of person is simply laughable when you actually *THINK* about it.
2014-01-28 01:31:45 PM
1 votes:

nekom: only the clearly guilty beyond any shadow of a doubt should be taken to the gallows and hanged immediately after that guilt is determined.


Every single person who has been released from death row for false conviction was found guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.
2014-01-28 01:13:07 PM
1 votes:

Magorn: It serves no financial, or legal, or even deterrent purpose, and is nothing more than revenge.


It does do one thing really well:  It prevents the person from ever committing another heinous crime.
2014-01-28 12:58:15 PM
1 votes:
If we're going to execute people, we should have a very, very high standard of evidence.

Then we should hang them or shoot them and be done with it.

Lethal injection is a silly, euphemistic show, that gets medical personnel involved when they needn't be.
2014-01-28 12:50:04 PM
1 votes:
The same prison guards who strapped a man down and killed him claim he faked the signs of torture and suffering?

You don't say.
2014-01-28 12:48:39 PM
1 votes:
They executed the attorney too? I might have to change my stance on the death pel-aty.
2014-01-28 12:47:23 PM
1 votes:

walktoanarcade: indylaw: Yeah, if you want fair, objective witnesses, ask prison guards...

... Who by their own admission eavesdropped on confidential communications.

They still have more integrity than most lawyers.


They're small town bullies too stupid to be cops and too crazy to join the Army.
2014-01-28 12:44:53 PM
1 votes:

NickelP: I keep asking this and not getting an answer.  When you take your pet to the vet it takes about 15 seconds and they die with a smile and don't seem uncomfortable at all.  It took this dude 20 minutes+ to suffocate.  What are they teaching at vet school that these folks are ignoring?


The problem isn't really the method, the problem is getting someone qualified to do the job. Any anesthesiology resident could painlessly kill someone by putting them under and then stopping their heart.

With veterinary medicine, the vet is qualified to determine dosages and so on. Again, the issue is that the process has to be dumbed down enough for someone willing to use it. A macabre twist of "I don't want to belong to any club that would have me as a member".
2014-01-28 12:43:45 PM
1 votes:
Yeah, if you want fair, objective witnesses, ask prison guards...

... Who by their own admission eavesdropped on confidential communications.
2014-01-28 12:41:12 PM
1 votes:

jigger: If I'm dying on a table while people watch, I don't think I'll care what the hell my lawyer just told me to do. Or what anyone thinks about anything.


Yeah, but you're not a person who cares about those who you might affect, like a convicted murderer does.
2014-01-28 12:38:33 PM
1 votes:
If I'm dying on a table while people watch, I don't think I'll care what the hell my lawyer just told me to do. Or what anyone thinks about anything.
2014-01-28 12:33:33 PM
1 votes:
I find it odd that, where ethical suicide is allowed, they give the patient an overdose of barbiturates and they simply nod off, with their families around them.  But, when the same is done to these scumbags, it's inhumane torture.  Garbage like this needs to go, I don't care if it's a bullet to the back of the head.
2014-01-28 12:30:06 PM
1 votes:

nekom: Theaetetus:
That's what the pro-death penalty people would have us believe, yes. However, we  do know this: either it was actual writhing in pain, or the tranquilizer  failed such that he could do "intentional theatrics".
In other words, on the surface, it looks like this rebuts the people opposed to the death penalty... but in actuality, it only harms the argument that the drugs were effective at sedating him.

I'm anti-death penalty across the board, but let me tell you something:  I don't really care if it hurts.  10 minutes or so of pain, yeah whatever, not a huge deal.  The waiting, the endless appeals, the dates coming and sometimes going, that's FAR more torturous than a few minutes of discomfort and pain.  That and a whole host of other reasons I oppose it.  If we MUST have the death penalty, I think it should have an even higher burden of proof, only the clearly guilty beyond any shadow of a doubt should be taken to the gallows and hanged immediately after that guilt is determined.


Yeah, that's reasonable, and we'll let the trial court say whether you're "guilty beyond a reasonable doubt" or "guilty beyond any shadow of a doubt." I'm sure though that it really would be a higher burden of proof, even though the former would result in an immediate appeal and possible reversal, and the latter has no appeal and immediate death. Why, probably no more than 99% of defendants would be found "guilty beyond any shadow of a doubt".
2014-01-28 12:28:08 PM
1 votes:

Mugato: Attorney of death row inmate executed last week

That's a good start. What happened to the guy on death row?


*shakes tiny fist*

came to say this...good show.
2014-01-28 12:26:08 PM
1 votes:
Bad luck death row inmate: don't agree with your attorney to put on a drawn out show of your death... Has a drawn out death.
2014-01-28 12:24:57 PM
1 votes:
Would it now be considered illegal to listen to an attorney and his client speak?

And so what if he made a show? That is NOT illegal.
But spying on an attorney and client is.
Once again, the man has put the wrong people in jail.
2014-01-28 12:24:10 PM
1 votes:

dittybopper: Theaetetus: dittybopper: Protected by attorney-client privilege, and in any case, "making a show of your death" as a way to protest capital punishment is protected political speech.

The whole thing is hearsay anyways.

Yep, and while it may fall under an exception, because in effect it was a "death bed" statement, it's still the statement of a person who had so little consideration of his fellow man that he raped and murdered a pregnant woman.

But even if every thing he said was completely true, I still think it would be protected, as it is "speech" intended to effect change to a matter of public policy.

First Amendment protects exaggeration.  Fark is proof of that.


So if it was the inmate making that decision on his own, that would be an open and shut case.
Does the fact that it was the attorney's idea rather than the inmates make a difference, legally?  Could be used as abusing a position of power over him.  Though I don't know if there's technically anything wrong with that or not.

Let's go full tinfoil hat and assume the lawyer intentionally threw the case so he could get this guy onto death row to make his political statement.
2014-01-28 12:16:12 PM
1 votes:

RedPhoenix122: Theaetetus: dittybopper: Protected by attorney-client privilege, and in any case, "making a show of your death" as a way to protest capital punishment is protected political speech.

The whole thing is hearsay anyways.

Plus, even if this whole thing was true, we don't know how much was intentional theatrics and how much was actual writhing in pain.


If he can put on a show while dying, he's damn good.
2014-01-28 11:18:48 AM
1 votes:
"He wants me to put on this big show in front of my kids, all right when I'm dying!" McGuire is reported as having told one guard. "I ain't gonna do this. It's about me and my kids, not him and his cause!"

Sounds legit, prison guard.
2014-01-28 11:00:04 AM
1 votes:

Theaetetus: dittybopper: Protected by attorney-client privilege, and in any case, "making a show of your death" as a way to protest capital punishment is protected political speech.

The whole thing is hearsay anyways.


Yep, and while it may fall under an exception, because in effect it was a "death bed" statement, it's still the statement of a person who had so little consideration of his fellow man that he raped and murdered a pregnant woman.

But even if every thing he said was completely true, I still think it would be protected, as it is "speech" intended to effect change to a matter of public policy.

First Amendment protects exaggeration.  Fark is proof of that.
 
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