lennavan: If we have actual video footage of the crime in question, which isn't so unreasonable in today's cell phones with video cameras age.
lennavan: a particular individual: lennavan: a particular individual: nekom: only the clearly guilty beyond any shadow of a doubt should be taken to the gallows and hanged immediately after that guilt is determined.Every single person who has been released from death row for false conviction was found guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.So the extensive, lengthy appeals process works?If by "works," you mean it "gives Project Innocence time to do their job," yes. Barry Beach in Montana is back in prison after being released for 18 months to prepare a defense for a new trial. Everyone knows he's innocent, including the asshole prosecutor (who is now the governor of Montana). Of course, Bullock won't admit he screwed up, and still clings to the coerced confession as "proof" of Beach's "guilt." It doesn't help that the Tea Party managed to get a couple of right-wing zealots on the Supreme Court, which overturned the lower court's decision to release him.I agree with what I assume your point is - the capital punishment system is flawed and capital punishment should be immediately ceased until significant reforms are enacted. But what you replied to was a comment where you should have assumed he also wanted significant reforms to remove all possibility of doubt. For instance, requiring actual video footage. If we have actual video footage of the crime in question, which isn't so unreasonable in today's cell phones with video cameras age.You want to use the people taken off death row as an example of how the initial stages of the process (the first trial) fail. Perhaps, though keep in mind many of those cases are not "innocent" people but rather doubt has re-entered. They still may be guilty. But your evidence that the first stage is faulty could be my evidence that the entire process as a whole works. See, look at all these people we release later when even the teensiest bit of doubt comes up!
BizarreMan: RedPhoenix122: Theaetetus: dittybopper: Protected by attorney-client privilege, and in any case, "making a show of your death" as a way to protest capital punishment is protected political speech.The whole thing is hearsay anyways.Plus, even if this whole thing was true, we don't know how much was intentional theatrics and how much was actual writhing in pain.If he can put on a show while dying, he's damn good.
lennavan: [temper tantrum]
skozlaw: Even if we accept your claims about the drugs at face value, your conclusions still cannot be accepted based solely on your provided reasoning.
a particular individual: We're pretty much on the same page, but I've seen too many cases of the prosecution manufacturing evidence to ever trust those assholes. If they want someone on death row, they'll put them there. The only way to be sure is to abolish the death penalty entirely.Some people don't deserve to live. I just don't think people are able to reliably sort the chaff from the wheat.
skozlaw: lennavan: [temper tantrum]Ahem.
Oldiron_79: i.r.id10t: Oldiron_79: Silverstaff: Why don't we bring back firing squads?No, seriously.No arguing about drug cocktails and troubles with imports. A high-powered rifle round will travel through the cranium faster than the nerve impulses in the brain, the trauma would destroy the brain before there was even conscious recognition of damage, they'll never even know they were dead. Hard to be cruel when they die so fast they never even can realize they are being executed.Is it that we try to make it clinical, medical, scientific? We want our executions neat and clean and orderly. Death isn't like that.Long drop hanging, severs the brain stem between the base of the skull and C1, out like a light switch before you know you hit the bottom.The only cruel and stressful part about hanging, head chopping, or even firing squad is the thoughts of "oh shiat i'm about to be killed".My solution? After the lengthy process of appeals (there are no do-overs when someone is dead, gotta make 100% sure you've got the right guy) is complete, have the equivalent of ceiling cat open a tile and laser aim a small/medium caliber rifle/pistol at the head and shoot 'em in the middle of the night when they are asleep. Be nice to the other prisoners and use something sub-sonic so it can be properly suppressed. 230grn 45 slug moving at 850 fps, use a single shot or a bolt gun so there is no gas escape and no noise once a *good* suppressor is fitted.No notice of "sorry, appeals are up, you have a week". That is a weeks worth of stress and anxiety out of the way. No notice of "last meal, you got an hour". Just "oh, another day in prison waiting to find out..." and then *pfft* in the middle of the night, call the medical examiner/mortician/funeral home in the morning.Thats not too dissimilar to execution method in Russia before they did away with it. The death row cells had solid doors and one day when your food tray slot opened a pistol barrel came through instead of a food tray.
cptjeff: gja: Last I checked Max/Super-max incarceration if exorbitantly expensive for us taxpayers.It is, but the death penalty is far MORE expensive. Because not only are you paying for the prisons, you have to pay for an army of lawyers on top of it because of all the mandatory appeals, which we have because innocent people keep getting executed.
Magorn: gja: Magorn: dittybopper: Magorn: It serves no financial, or legal, or even deterrent purpose, and is nothing more than revenge.It does do one thing really well: It prevents the person from ever committing another heinous crime.which can be accomplished just as well, and for far less money, if you merely imprison the person for the rest of his life tooBut if they are unapologetic, unprepentant, remorseless, and intent hurting others and on doing so at any possible chance, jail just contains the problem to smaller confines. Why should the poor asshole who stupidly smuggled drugs but never really committed a violent crime have to get thrown in with the guy whos' answer to "Why did you kill everyone in the house?" is "They were home".And why should society pay for all this? Last I checked Max/Super-max incarceration if exorbitantly expensive for us taxpayers.Nowhere near as expensive as a death penalty case. Seriously. The numbers don't lie. Executing a prisoner is roughly double what keeping him locked up for the rest of his life costs. Why? Because, and I think you as a decent person would agree with this, we have to be absolutely certain that the accused is guilty*, got the fairest trial possible, and truly deserves the death penalty (that there are no hidden mitigating factors, mental illness etc). That takes time, it takes extensive appeals, expensive specialty lawyers etc. When it is all added up, it costs more than simply putting them in jail for life.So why do we persist in a death penalty? IMHO because we are desperately trying to feed an illusion most of us NEED to get through the day. We need to believe that there is some form of justice, either in this world or the next, depending on your philosophical outlook. The reason we keep the death penalty is the same reason so many religions have invented a concept of hell. The idea that bad people could do bad things and face no retribution equal to the evil they did is simply unacceptable ...
lennavan: a particular individual: We're pretty much on the same page, but I've seen too many cases of the prosecution manufacturing evidence to ever trust those assholes. If they want someone on death row, they'll put them there. The only way to be sure is to abolish the death penalty entirely.Some people don't deserve to live. I just don't think people are able to reliably sort the chaff from the wheat.Oh we're definitely on the same page then. I'm still a hold out because every now and then there's a case like this that reminds me why I'm happy the death penalty exists. But you're right, in my mind in theory there exists a way to apply the death penalty nationwide that prevents innocents from ever being executed. In actual practice, I have serious reservations.On a related note, I am in favor of punishing dirty cops/prosecutors double what the penalty their "criminal" would have gotten for gross negligence/manufacturing evidence/etc. I'm a huge believer in the whole letting 10 guilty men go free before you risk convicting 1 guilty man sorta deal. And I have heard/read far too many stories of shall we say "silly" police reports. We can't be having the police/prosecutors be doing that shiat if we're gonna have any faith in our justice system at all.
dittybopper: A few minutes of painful existence before you actually die? No different than many heart attack victims. Doesn't seem particularly cruel or unusual.
Magorn: dittybopper: Protected by attorney-client privilege, and in any case, "making a show of your death" as a way to protest capital punishment is protected political speech.Agreed. and the investigation has already closed for lack of evidence that actually happenedfurthermore not sure how the inmate who was supposed to be paralyzed and completely sedated by the fatal drugs could have "made a show" of anything. IF watching the man die bothers somebody, maybe they should reconsider their stance on the Death penalty . In my opinion, backed up by DP cases I have helped handle,Capital Punishment is nothing more than a fancy name for killing another human being deliberately cause it made you feel good. It serves no financial, or legal, or even deterrent purpose, and is nothing more than revenge.
iron de havilland: dittybopper: A few minutes of painful existence before you actually die? No different than many heart attack victims. Doesn't seem particularly cruel or unusual.The difference being that a heart attack is either due to old age or ill health.No state has ever forced medical conditions upon people.And, given the 8th Amendment, it's kind of mind-boggling that capital punishment is even practised in the US.
devildog123: iron de havilland: dittybopper: A few minutes of painful existence before you actually die? No different than many heart attack victims. Doesn't seem particularly cruel or unusual.The difference being that a heart attack is either due to old age or ill health.No state has ever forced medical conditions upon people.And, given the 8th Amendment, it's kind of mind-boggling that capital punishment is even practised in the US.It's because we have a 5th Amendment.No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.Clearly, the 5th Amendment says that a person CAN be executed, you just have to go about it with due process.
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