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(The Big Story)   NEWS: Attorney of death row inmate executed last week suspended and under investigation. FARK: Guards say attorney coached client to "make a show of his death"   (bigstory.ap.org) divider line 221
    More: Followup, death row, Ohio, convicts, OPD, The Columbus Dispatch, point guards  
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8923 clicks; posted to Main » on 28 Jan 2014 at 12:22 PM (11 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-01-28 04:52:42 PM
I think there should be banjo music playing in the background of this thread.
 
2014-01-28 04:57:54 PM

lennavan: If we have actual video footage of the crime in question, which isn't so unreasonable in today's cell phones with video cameras age.


...or unreasonable not to fake with consumer priced video editing/motion graphics software.
 
2014-01-28 05:02:44 PM
I still think we should execute people by squishing them between flat steel plates, with the top one weighing many tons and dropped from a great height. It would be instantaneous and if you sedate the guy first he won't have to see it coming. As a bonus, Soylent Jam.
 
2014-01-28 05:06:59 PM
I didn't really care about his "suffering" when I first heard about the execution. I don't really care now.

And I'm not a big fan of capital punishment.

But I'm even less of a fan of rape and murder.

So I'm kinda hoping he actually did suffer.
 
2014-01-28 05:11:49 PM

lennavan: a particular individual: lennavan: a particular individual: nekom: only the clearly guilty beyond any shadow of a doubt should be taken to the gallows and hanged immediately after that guilt is determined.

Every single person who has been released from death row for false conviction was found guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.

So the extensive, lengthy appeals process works?

If by "works," you mean it "gives Project Innocence time to do their job," yes. Barry Beach in Montana is back in prison after being released for 18 months to prepare a defense for a new trial. Everyone knows he's innocent, including the asshole prosecutor (who is now the governor of Montana). Of course, Bullock won't admit he screwed up, and still clings to the coerced confession as "proof" of Beach's "guilt." It doesn't help that the Tea Party managed to get a couple of right-wing zealots on the Supreme Court, which overturned the lower court's decision to release him.

I agree with what I assume your point is - the capital punishment system is flawed and capital punishment should be immediately ceased until significant reforms are enacted.  But what you replied to was a comment where you should have assumed he also wanted significant reforms to remove all possibility of doubt.  For instance, requiring actual video footage.  If we have actual video footage of the crime in question, which isn't so unreasonable in today's cell phones with video cameras age.

You want to use the people taken off death row as an example of how the initial stages of the process (the first trial) fail.  Perhaps, though keep in mind many of those cases are not "innocent" people but rather doubt has re-entered.  They still may be guilty.  But your evidence that the first stage is faulty could be my evidence that the entire process as a whole works.  See, look at all these people we release later when even the teensiest bit of doubt comes up!


We're pretty much on the same page, but I've seen too many cases of the prosecution manufacturing evidence to ever trust those assholes. If they want someone on death row, they'll put them there. The only way to be sure is to abolish the death penalty entirely.

Some people don't deserve to live. I just don't think people are able to reliably sort the chaff from the wheat.
 
2014-01-28 05:24:13 PM

BizarreMan: RedPhoenix122: Theaetetus: dittybopper: Protected by attorney-client privilege, and in any case, "making a show of your death" as a way to protest capital punishment is protected political speech.

The whole thing is hearsay anyways.

Plus, even if this whole thing was true, we don't know how much was intentional theatrics and how much was actual writhing in pain.

If he can put on a show while dying, he's damn good.


THE ARISTOCRATS!
 
2014-01-28 06:35:49 PM
26 minutes? That's only four minutes for commercials. They've gotta get more efficient if they ever want to televise this.
 
2014-01-28 07:02:56 PM

lennavan: [temper tantrum]


Ahem.

skozlaw: Even if we accept your claims about the drugs at face value, your conclusions still cannot be accepted based solely on your provided reasoning.


You concluded that the drugs were suitable for an execution because they are used in surgery on the basis that at the surgery dosage they produce anesthesia, therefore they must have been anesthetic at the dosages and in the combinations used in the execution cocktail.

You'll note that I never actually asked you to cite your claims about them being used in surgery, I mocked you for making that statement without bothering to cite it in the very same post you complained about other people's empty claims. I then proceeded to disprove your claim about the suitability of drugs for one purpose at one dose implying suitability for the same purpose at higher doses by citing the example of alcohol and the principles underlying hormesis. If you don't know what those are, that's not my problem. I only need to offer the citation, I don't need to teach you what it means. In essence however, it's that a toxin can have a positive affect - such as anesthesia - at one controlled dosage while having a completely different or wildly escalated and uncontrolled effect at higher doses in a non-linear way. Alcohol is a perfect example. At a low dose it has some protective affects and produces a sensation of euphoria. At higher doses, neither the benefits nor the euphoria are increased linearly. The opposite of both occurs. It becomes rampantly destructive in the human body and produces deep depression instead.

Therefore, your claim that the drugs must have been anesthetic at those doses because they are anesthetic at lower doses is, inherently, baseless. They MIGHT be, but there's no valid reason for simply assuming it to be true and you did so only out of ignorance, not because you have some good reason to think you were correct.

Hope that cleared it all up for you. Again, I would suggest that in the future you spend a bit less of what appears to be your fairly limited intellectual capital on coming up with what you imagine to be clever insults and a little more time on trying to follow what's being said.
 
2014-01-28 07:28:55 PM
a particular individual:Some people don't deserve to live. I just don't think people are able to reliably sort the chaff from the wheat.

Nadal Hassan is one that comes to mind.  Caught in the act, tons of witnesses, a confession, everything you could want.  I see no reason to waste taxpayers dollars past the initial trial.  I don't care if he even wants to die.  Let him.  Don't make all of us pay to keep him around.  I'm all for the death penalty, but my standards of proof are about that high.  99.9% of murderers wouldn't qualify for my death penalty.  But the ones who do wouldn't need more than a month, because we all know damn well they are guilty.
 
2014-01-28 07:49:42 PM

a particular individual: We're pretty much on the same page, but I've seen too many cases of the prosecution manufacturing evidence to ever trust those assholes. If they want someone on death row, they'll put them there. The only way to be sure is to abolish the death penalty entirely.

Some people don't deserve to live. I just don't think people are able to reliably sort the chaff from the wheat.


Oh we're definitely on the same page then.  I'm still a hold out because every now and then there's a case like this that reminds me why I'm happy the death penalty exists.  But you're right, in my mind in theory there exists a way to apply the death penalty nationwide that prevents innocents from ever being executed.  In actual practice, I have serious reservations.

On a related note, I am in favor of punishing dirty cops/prosecutors double what the penalty their "criminal" would have gotten for gross negligence/manufacturing evidence/etc.  I'm a huge believer in the whole letting 10 guilty men go free before you risk convicting 1 guilty man sorta deal.  And I have heard/read far too many stories of shall we say "silly" police reports.  We can't be having the police/prosecutors be doing that shiat if we're gonna have any faith in our justice system at all.
 
2014-01-28 07:51:44 PM

skozlaw: lennavan: [temper tantrum]

Ahem.


Until you apologize for incorrectly attacking my citations, or provide 3 citations of your own, I have no choice but to assume you're trolling me.  Because all I see at this point is:

lennavan:  Claim X
skozlaw:  Citation?
lennavan:  Really?
skozlaw:  Yes
lennavna: fine: citation 1, citation 2 and citation 3.
skozlaw:  you didn't cite Claim Y!
 
2014-01-28 07:57:05 PM

Oldiron_79: i.r.id10t: Oldiron_79: Silverstaff: Why don't we bring back firing squads?

No, seriously.

No arguing about drug cocktails and troubles with imports.  A high-powered rifle round will travel through the cranium faster than the nerve impulses in the brain, the trauma would destroy the brain before there was even conscious recognition of damage, they'll never even know they were dead.  Hard to be cruel when they die so fast they never even can realize they are being executed.

Is it that we try to make it clinical, medical, scientific?  We want our executions neat and clean and orderly.  Death isn't like that.

Long drop hanging, severs the brain stem between the base of the skull and C1, out like a light switch before you know you hit the bottom.

The only cruel and stressful part about hanging, head chopping, or even firing squad is the thoughts of "oh shiat i'm about to be killed".

My solution? After the lengthy process of appeals (there are no do-overs when someone is dead, gotta make 100% sure you've got the right guy) is complete, have the equivalent of ceiling cat open a tile and laser aim a small/medium caliber rifle/pistol at the head and shoot 'em in the middle of the night when they are asleep.  Be nice to the other prisoners and use something sub-sonic so it can be properly suppressed.  230grn 45 slug moving at 850 fps, use a single shot or a bolt gun so there is no gas escape and no noise once a *good* suppressor is fitted.

No notice of "sorry, appeals are up, you have a week".  That is a weeks worth of stress and anxiety out of the way.  No notice of "last meal, you got an hour".  Just "oh, another day in prison waiting to find out..." and then *pfft* in the middle of the night, call the medical examiner/mortician/funeral home in the morning.

Thats not too dissimilar to execution method in Russia before they did away with it. The death row cells had solid doors and one day when your food tray slot opened a pistol barrel came through instead of a food tray.


Actually, as I recall from reading about the Gulag, what would happen is that you'd taken from your cell to write a personal appeal to the Premier, and on the way back they'd take you back down a different hallway and someone would come out from some hidden alcove and put a Tokarev to the back of your head and pull the trigger.
 
gja [TotalFark]
2014-01-28 08:05:30 PM

cptjeff: gja: Last I checked Max/Super-max incarceration if exorbitantly expensive for us taxpayers.

It is, but the death penalty is far MORE expensive. Because not only are you paying for the prisons, you have to pay for an army of lawyers on top of it because of all the mandatory appeals, which we have because innocent people keep getting executed.


Admittedly when you take ALL of it into account it costs more. I was, of course, merely pointing to the final act of it. Not to the long road leading up to it.
 
gja [TotalFark]
2014-01-28 08:27:28 PM

Magorn: gja: Magorn: dittybopper: Magorn: It serves no financial, or legal, or even deterrent purpose, and is nothing more than revenge.

It does do one thing really well:  It prevents the person from ever committing another heinous crime.

which can be accomplished just as well, and for far less money, if you merely imprison the person for the rest of his life too

But if they are unapologetic, unprepentant, remorseless, and intent hurting others and on doing so at any possible chance, jail just contains the problem to smaller confines. Why should the poor asshole who stupidly smuggled drugs but never really committed a violent crime have to get thrown in with the guy whos' answer to "Why did you kill everyone in the house?" is "They were home".

And why should society pay for all this? Last I checked Max/Super-max incarceration if exorbitantly expensive for us taxpayers.

Nowhere near as expensive as a death penalty case.  Seriously.  The numbers don't lie.  Executing a prisoner is roughly double what keeping him locked up for the rest of his life costs.  Why? Because, and I think you as a decent person would agree with this, we have to be absolutely certain that the accused is guilty*, got the fairest trial possible, and truly deserves the death penalty (that there are no hidden mitigating factors, mental illness etc).   That takes time, it takes extensive appeals, expensive specialty lawyers etc.  When it is all added up, it costs more than simply putting them in jail for life.


So why do we persist in a death penalty? IMHO because we are desperately trying to feed an illusion most of us NEED to get through the day.  We need to believe that there is some form of justice, either in this world or the next, depending on your philosophical outlook.  The reason we keep the death penalty is the same reason so many religions have invented a concept of hell.  The idea that bad people could do bad things and face no retribution equal to the evil they did is simply unacceptable ...


Therein is the quandary. MOST of us prefer to live in a civilized society, some delight in ignoring the boundaries and merely taking whatever strikes their fancy at the moment, damned-be-all. I'm not sure about the illusion of justice. Society NEEDS to have places and limits. Some limits have to be firm enough that violating them is known to result in awful and terrible retribution. Screw justice. It's a word used to make us feel good about having to do unto others that which we pray/hope/wish shall never happen to us.
In the most words.......FEAR.
Fear of something dark enough to strike a resonant chord in the mind or soul of those who dare to violate the laws (limits) that society has placed at the outer fringes of the worst acts.

I admit to be christian, so I am supposed to fear hell. Hell? Try sorting through rubble to find body parts for 36 hour shifts.
Hell would be like club med.
My christianity also whispers in my mind (along with the voice of my mom as she says to me "don't let hate get a foothold, remember none of us are perfect") to not judge others too harshly.
Miscreants such as this make it a difficult line to toe. There are those without compunction, without fear, without feeling for themselves or others.
Locking them up satisfies the need to remove them from society, but society still pays a price for their existence.
At some point transgressions reach a point an example needs to made of such heinous acts. Killing them offends my soul, but satisfies my coldly logical animal mind (and we are all animals like it or not) that they will now surely never repeat their acts.

In any case, the suffering of this trash finds a deaf ear and and no sympathy in me. I will still pray for him, though. Isn't that odd?
 
2014-01-28 09:43:48 PM
Libs don't care. They would rather we treat murderers and rapists with respect.
 
2014-01-28 10:25:36 PM

lennavan: a particular individual: We're pretty much on the same page, but I've seen too many cases of the prosecution manufacturing evidence to ever trust those assholes. If they want someone on death row, they'll put them there. The only way to be sure is to abolish the death penalty entirely.

Some people don't deserve to live. I just don't think people are able to reliably sort the chaff from the wheat.

Oh we're definitely on the same page then.  I'm still a hold out because every now and then there's a case like this that reminds me why I'm happy the death penalty exists.  But you're right, in my mind in theory there exists a way to apply the death penalty nationwide that prevents innocents from ever being executed.  In actual practice, I have serious reservations.

On a related note, I am in favor of punishing dirty cops/prosecutors double what the penalty their "criminal" would have gotten for gross negligence/manufacturing evidence/etc.  I'm a huge believer in the whole letting 10 guilty men go free before you risk convicting 1 guilty man sorta deal.  And I have heard/read far too many stories of shall we say "silly" police reports.  We can't be having the police/prosecutors be doing that shiat if we're gonna have any faith in our justice system at all.


We park our cars in the same garage.
 
2014-01-29 12:17:04 AM

dittybopper: A few minutes of painful existence before you actually die?  No different than many heart attack victims.  Doesn't seem particularly cruel or unusual.


The difference being that a heart attack is either due to old age or ill health.

No state has ever forced medical conditions upon people.

And, given the 8th Amendment, it's kind of mind-boggling that capital punishment is even practised in the US.
 
2014-01-29 01:13:05 AM

Magorn: dittybopper: Protected by attorney-client privilege, and in any case, "making a show of your death" as a way to protest capital punishment is protected political speech.

Agreed. and the investigation has already closed for lack of evidence that actually happened

furthermore not sure how the inmate who was supposed to be paralyzed and completely sedated by the fatal drugs could have "made a show" of anything.

 IF watching the man die bothers somebody, maybe they should reconsider their stance on the Death penalty .  In my opinion, backed up by DP cases I have helped handle,Capital Punishment is nothing more than a fancy name for killing another human being deliberately cause it made you feel good.  It serves no financial, or legal, or even deterrent purpose, and is nothing more than revenge.


And in this respect penal policy in the US is at least 50 years behind the rest of the civilised world.
 
2014-01-29 03:28:09 AM
I'm doubting a prisoner on the death gurney would really have the presence of mind (what with the anesthetic and all) to embellish their reaction to the toxins. I mean, I'd figure they'd be preoccupied, ya know?
 
2014-01-29 11:31:06 AM

iron de havilland: dittybopper: A few minutes of painful existence before you actually die?  No different than many heart attack victims.  Doesn't seem particularly cruel or unusual.

The difference being that a heart attack is either due to old age or ill health.

No state has ever forced medical conditions upon people.

And, given the 8th Amendment, it's kind of mind-boggling that capital punishment is even practised in the US.


It's because we have a 5th Amendment.

No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.

Clearly, the 5th Amendment says that a person CAN be executed, you just have to go about it with due process.
 
2014-01-29 06:04:50 PM

devildog123: iron de havilland: dittybopper: A few minutes of painful existence before you actually die?  No different than many heart attack victims.  Doesn't seem particularly cruel or unusual.

The difference being that a heart attack is either due to old age or ill health.

No state has ever forced medical conditions upon people.

And, given the 8th Amendment, it's kind of mind-boggling that capital punishment is even practised in the US.

It's because we have a 5th Amendment.

No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.

Clearly, the 5th Amendment says that a person CAN be executed, you just have to go about it with due process.


But that conflicts with the eighth, forbidding cruel and unusual punishment.

And, the second amendment clearly states that a well regulated militia has the right to bear arms, but says nothing of the rights of the individual.

It's almost as if documents written in the 17th and 18th century don't have much relevance in the 21st century.
 
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