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(Slashdot)   The gift that keeps on giving: Snowden reveals the NSA's involved in economic espionage. Shareholders at Airbus, Rafale and Sukhoi seen phoning their lawyers for what will be a long, long, long discovery process   (yro.slashdot.org) divider line 60
    More: Obvious, NSA, Sukhoi, espionages, control structure, table reservation, product design, other nations, shareholders  
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2353 clicks; posted to Geek » on 27 Jan 2014 at 2:01 PM (12 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-01-27 09:41:17 AM
Well of course they are. Do you think the job of the national security state is to keep individuals safe? No, it's to protect the Colonel's secrets herbs and spices.
 
2014-01-27 09:50:21 AM
and Boeing still couldn't win the bid for Brasil's new jet fighter
 
2014-01-27 10:03:50 AM

naughtyrev: Well of course they are. Do you think the job of the national security state is to keep individuals safe? No, it's to protect the Colonel's secrets herbs and spices.


Chicken salt grease.
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2014-01-27 10:03:57 AM
Rafale is a company?
 
2014-01-27 10:32:40 AM

vpb: Rafale is a company?


Came here to ask this as well.
 
2014-01-27 10:45:15 AM

Flab: vpb: Rafale is a company?

Came here to ask this as well.


Well, Dassault.
 
2014-01-27 11:36:21 AM

gaslight: Flab: vpb: Rafale is a company?

Came here to ask this as well.

Well, Dassault.


I know that.  I even know where the name comes from, but in the true Fark tradition of nitpicking till it hurts, we were simply pointing out that the name of one of the aircrafts built by this company is not the same as the company name itself, and therefore shareholders would own stock in "Groupe Industriel Marcel Dassault S.A.", not "Rafale."
 
2014-01-27 12:00:08 PM

Voiceofreason01: and Boeing still couldn't win the bid for Brasil's new jet fighter


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/12/18/brazil-saab-jet-deal_n_4469 38 6.html

Boeing lost the bid not in spite of the NSA, but because of the NSA.
 
2014-01-27 01:43:15 PM
I'm sure Siemens will be all over this, too.
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2014-01-27 01:46:55 PM

toraque: Voiceofreason01: and Boeing still couldn't win the bid for Brasil's new jet fighter

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/12/18/brazil-saab-jet-deal_n_4469 38 6.html

Boeing lost the bid not in spite of the NSA, but because of the NSA.


Since Sweden won the bid and was one of the governments working with the NSA, I doubt it was a major factor.
 
2014-01-27 01:52:02 PM

vpb: toraque: Voiceofreason01: and Boeing still couldn't win the bid for Brasil's new jet fighter

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/12/18/brazil-saab-jet-deal_n_4469 38 6.html

Boeing lost the bid not in spite of the NSA, but because of the NSA.

Since Sweden won the bid and was one of the governments working with the NSA, I doubt it was a major factor.


That's not what Brazil said, this sounds like it'll hurt American businesses more than it's government.
 
2014-01-27 02:06:41 PM
Why under geek?
 
2014-01-27 02:07:11 PM
Oh, he dead now.

You can fark with Uncle Sam but don't fark with the people who run Wall Street or other huge financial interests.

He dead.
 
2014-01-27 02:07:26 PM
You think Snowden is pissed we haven't taken up pitchforks and torches?  The stuff he's revealed should have caused a revolution, but nope.  Nothing's changed.
 
2014-01-27 02:09:35 PM
yes... and? You think the chinese government isn't routinely stealing trade secrets, giving them to their 'private' companies and undercutting the foreign company that invested the r&d?
 
2014-01-27 02:09:59 PM
So...Snowden jsut realized that realpolitik isn't just a theory but also how the world works?

Countries spy on other countries. That is why we have intelligence services.

Snowden is just an anarchist whose naivete does serious harm to people.
 
2014-01-27 02:12:00 PM

foo monkey: You think Snowden is pissed we haven't taken up pitchforks and torches?  The stuff he's revealed should have caused a revolution, but nope.  Nothing's changed.


Revolution???

No, it should have caused some real changes to our intelligence community like it did last time someone revealed this much about our spying apparatus.

It won't because by and large, Americans don't seem to actually give a damn.  A complacent media doesn't help.
 
2014-01-27 02:16:45 PM

toraque: Voiceofreason01: and Boeing still couldn't win the bid for Brasil's new jet fighter

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/12/18/brazil-saab-jet-deal_n_4469 38 6.html

Boeing lost the bid not in spite of the NSA, but because of the NSA.


Brazil lost the bid because the F18 isn't cheap and is a solid "4th generation" fighter.  If you have all the avionics improvements, optional stealthish features, etc. you reach 4.5 gen and I don't know if all of that is available for export

The Gripen is relatively cheap and is exportable as a 4.5 generation.

The F18 is actually probably the more capable airframe in terms of the electronic suite and payload.  But if you are looking for a small but highly capable fighter aircraft rather than an expensive multi-role one the Gripen fills that niche more cheaply than the Hornet/Super Hornet (whichever one they were offering).

Brazil went with the Gripen because it better fits the profile of what they need for the prices they were willing to pay.  Contrary to the announcements made to the press the Snowden leaks probably had zero bearing whatsoever on something as important as a multi-year procurement featuring platforms that will last well over a decade.

Its fun to make political hay out of others' mistakes but in the end its still all just chaff
 
2014-01-27 02:19:37 PM

meat0918: foo monkey: You think Snowden is pissed we haven't taken up pitchforks and torches?  The stuff he's revealed should have caused a revolution, but nope.  Nothing's changed.

Revolution???

No, it should have caused some real changes to our intelligence community like it did last time someone revealed this much about our spying apparatus.

It won't because by and large, Americans don't seem to actually give a damn.  A complacent media doesn't help.


I actually have no problems with the NSA conducting industrial espionage on other countries.  That's what intelligence services are supposed to do: spy on other countries.

All the domestic stuff is what they shouldn't be doing.
 
2014-01-27 02:24:20 PM

Wicked Chinchilla: meat0918: foo monkey: You think Snowden is pissed we haven't taken up pitchforks and torches?  The stuff he's revealed should have caused a revolution, but nope.  Nothing's changed.

Revolution???

No, it should have caused some real changes to our intelligence community like it did last time someone revealed this much about our spying apparatus.

It won't because by and large, Americans don't seem to actually give a damn.  A complacent media doesn't help.

I actually have no problems with the NSA conducting industrial espionage on other countries.  That's what intelligence services are supposed to do: spy on other countries.

All the domestic stuff is what they shouldn't be doing.


I have a big problem with the domestic stuff too, which is why a responsible congress would be putting some new checks on our intelligence agencies.

Instead, we have more votes to defund Obamacare and ban abortion.
 
2014-01-27 02:28:09 PM

meat0918: Wicked Chinchilla: meat0918: foo monkey: You think Snowden is pissed we haven't taken up pitchforks and torches?  The stuff he's revealed should have caused a revolution, but nope.  Nothing's changed.

Revolution???

No, it should have caused some real changes to our intelligence community like it did last time someone revealed this much about our spying apparatus.

It won't because by and large, Americans don't seem to actually give a damn.  A complacent media doesn't help.

I actually have no problems with the NSA conducting industrial espionage on other countries.  That's what intelligence services are supposed to do: spy on other countries.

All the domestic stuff is what they shouldn't be doing.

I have a big problem with the domestic stuff too, which is why a responsible congress would be putting some new checks on our intelligence agencies.

Instead, we have more votes to defund Obamacare and ban abortion.


but it might work this time!!! They have to try!!!!!

/totally agree with you
//focused on jobs my ASS
///while Im slanty ranting: screw you Dems for falling on the public option, or at the very least medicaid for all
 
2014-01-27 02:30:35 PM

Wicked Chinchilla: meat0918: foo monkey: You think Snowden is pissed we haven't taken up pitchforks and torches?  The stuff he's revealed should have caused a revolution, but nope.  Nothing's changed.

Revolution???

No, it should have caused some real changes to our intelligence community like it did last time someone revealed this much about our spying apparatus.

It won't because by and large, Americans don't seem to actually give a damn.  A complacent media doesn't help.

I actually have no problems with the NSA conducting industrial espionage on other countries.  That's what intelligence services are supposed to do: spy on other countries.

All the domestic stuff is what they shouldn't be doing.


I don't agree with you about industrial espionage. Why should they be doing that? They can perhaps conduct counter-espionage, but that gets tricky too because how do you decide what's counter-espionage or just plain espionage?

Is it a national security issue, because it's the economy? Thinking like that scares me, because then it's a short leap of logic to considering everything that could affect the economy, domestic or otherwise, a national security issue with terrorists. They could justify almost literally anything.
 
2014-01-27 02:34:00 PM

TheShavingofOccam123: Oh, he dead now.

You can fark with Uncle Sam but don't fark with the people who run Wall Street or other huge financial interests.

He dead.


he'll be fine until Putin no longer finds him useful.
 
2014-01-27 02:34:36 PM
This is perfectly normal statecraft stuff.  The French are REALLY aggressive, for instance, and everyone knows it.

This is why Snowden should be hung.  He did NOT stick to just the issues he claims to care about; he's revealed a lot of our normal spying techniques along the way.
 
2014-01-27 02:37:00 PM

change1211: vpb: toraque: Voiceofreason01: and Boeing still couldn't win the bid for Brasil's new jet fighter

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/12/18/brazil-saab-jet-deal_n_4469 38 6.html

Boeing lost the bid not in spite of the NSA, but because of the NSA.

Since Sweden won the bid and was one of the governments working with the NSA, I doubt it was a major factor.

That's not what Brazil said, this sounds like it'll hurt American businesses more than it's government.


Who do you think controls the US government?
 
2014-01-27 02:37:23 PM

SkittlesAreYum: Wicked Chinchilla: meat0918: foo monkey: You think Snowden is pissed we haven't taken up pitchforks and torches?  The stuff he's revealed should have caused a revolution, but nope.  Nothing's changed.

Revolution???

No, it should have caused some real changes to our intelligence community like it did last time someone revealed this much about our spying apparatus.

It won't because by and large, Americans don't seem to actually give a damn.  A complacent media doesn't help.

I actually have no problems with the NSA conducting industrial espionage on other countries.  That's what intelligence services are supposed to do: spy on other countries.

All the domestic stuff is what they shouldn't be doing.

I don't agree with you about industrial espionage. Why should they be doing that? They can perhaps conduct counter-espionage, but that gets tricky too because how do you decide what's counter-espionage or just plain espionage?

Is it a national security issue, because it's the economy? Thinking like that scares me, because then it's a short leap of logic to considering everything that could affect the economy, domestic or otherwise, a national security issue with terrorists. They could justify almost literally anything.


Well, my answer to you isn't the most moral (its pretty amoral actually) but its because everyone who is capable of it is spying on as many people as they can.  Whether it be industrial espionage, military espionage, scientific espionage, its happening and has been happening for forever.  You know who some of the most common countries are that spy on the US in all walks of life?  Israel and France.

Its a slippery slope but the entire world has already fell right into it.  Look at the technology world.  You don't think Silicon valley is a MASSIVE target for intelligence operations or a role in national security?  Our military advantages are firmly rooted into technological advantages.

I know its a cynical perspective, but I think one would have a hard time finding an era where industrial espionage wasn't fair game.
 
2014-01-27 02:40:04 PM
You mean our government spies on foreign companies like their governments spy on ours? Huh.
 
2014-01-27 02:42:01 PM

meat0918: foo monkey: You think Snowden is pissed we haven't taken up pitchforks and torches?  The stuff he's revealed should have caused a revolution, but nope.  Nothing's changed.

Revolution???

No, it should have caused some real changes to our intelligence community like it did last time someone revealed this much about our spying apparatus.

It won't because by and large, Americans don't seem to actually give a damn.  A complacent media doesn't help.


Dude, these are the "real changes" that came about. If folks don't STFU about it, the next iteration will be worse.
 
2014-01-27 02:45:13 PM
Not shocking, really. The next thing I expect to hear is that the NSA was spying on Americans for political reasons, and then the circle back to COINTELPRO will be complete.
 
2014-01-27 02:48:35 PM

SkittlesAreYum: Wicked Chinchilla: meat0918: foo monkey: You think Snowden is pissed we haven't taken up pitchforks and torches?  The stuff he's revealed should have caused a revolution, but nope.  Nothing's changed.

Revolution???

No, it should have caused some real changes to our intelligence community like it did last time someone revealed this much about our spying apparatus.

It won't because by and large, Americans don't seem to actually give a damn.  A complacent media doesn't help.

I actually have no problems with the NSA conducting industrial espionage on other countries.  That's what intelligence services are supposed to do: spy on other countries.

All the domestic stuff is what they shouldn't be doing.

I don't agree with you about industrial espionage. Why should they be doing that? They can perhaps conduct counter-espionage, but that gets tricky too because how do you decide what's counter-espionage or just plain espionage?

Is it a national security issue, because it's the economy? Thinking like that scares me, because then it's a short leap of logic to considering everything that could affect the economy, domestic or otherwise, a national security issue with terrorists. They could justify almost literally anything.


If you want to get really meta, aren't constitutional violations the ultimate threat to the economy and this country?
 
2014-01-27 02:49:00 PM

meat0918: Instead, we have more votes to defund Obamacare and ban abortion.


This is what annoys me most.
Both parties are working on autopilot when there is important stuff to do.

Step one should be putting a halt to things like domestic data-mining, offshore prisons, unauthorized war making.

/Since an executive order to undo all that would probably happen right off the bat, defining the powers of a president should probably be step two.
/If they started to do their jobs then things like Obamacare and Abortion would peter out on their own.
 
2014-01-27 02:49:28 PM

ReverendJynxed: If folks don't STFU about it, the next iteration will be worse.


Beatings will continue until morale improves.
 
2014-01-27 02:52:14 PM

Wicked Chinchilla: SkittlesAreYum: Wicked Chinchilla: meat0918: foo monkey: You think Snowden is pissed we haven't taken up pitchforks and torches?  The stuff he's revealed should have caused a revolution, but nope.  Nothing's changed.

Revolution???

No, it should have caused some real changes to our intelligence community like it did last time someone revealed this much about our spying apparatus.

It won't because by and large, Americans don't seem to actually give a damn.  A complacent media doesn't help.

I actually have no problems with the NSA conducting industrial espionage on other countries.  That's what intelligence services are supposed to do: spy on other countries.

All the domestic stuff is what they shouldn't be doing.

I don't agree with you about industrial espionage. Why should they be doing that? They can perhaps conduct counter-espionage, but that gets tricky too because how do you decide what's counter-espionage or just plain espionage?

Is it a national security issue, because it's the economy? Thinking like that scares me, because then it's a short leap of logic to considering everything that could affect the economy, domestic or otherwise, a national security issue with terrorists. They could justify almost literally anything.

Well, my answer to you isn't the most moral (its pretty amoral actually) but its because everyone who is capable of it is spying on as many people as they can.  Whether it be industrial espionage, military espionage, scientific espionage, its happening and has been happening for forever.  You know who some of the most common countries are that spy on the US in all walks of life?  Israel and France.

Its a slippery slope but the entire world has already fell right into it.  Look at the technology world.  You don't think Silicon valley is a MASSIVE target for intelligence operations or a role in national security?  Our military advantages are firmly rooted into technological advantages.

I know its a cynical perspective, but I think one w ...


I agree with everything you said, except that it means we should do it too. How long until businesses in other countries decide it's not worth the risk to even associate with US companies? I have pragmatic objections, not moral ones.

Plus, why should the government be essentially providing free security and industrial intelligence for companies? Let them do it themselves if they want.
 
2014-01-27 03:00:16 PM
Old news to those who pay attention. What is it to those that don't?

PROFITS OF DEATH -- INSIDER TRADING AND 9-11

In that story we reported how the Israeli Herzliyya Institute for Counterterrorism had documented that unknown individuals -- with accurate foreknowledge of the attacks -- had purchased an obvious and unusually large number of "put" options on United and American Airlines shortly before the attacks.

Additional companies hit hard by the insider trading included Axa Re(insurance) and Munich Re as well as American investment giants Merrill Lynch and Morgan Stanley.

CIA Does Not Deny Stock Monitoring Outside U.S.

In a returned phone call from the Central Intelligence Agency, press spokesman Tom Crispell denied that the CIA was monitoring "real-time," pre-September 11, stock option trading activity within United States borders using such software as the Prosecutor's Management Information System (PROMIS).

 "That would be illegal. We only operate outside the United States," the intelligence official said.

However, when asked whether the CIA had been using PROMIS beyond American borders to scrutinize world financial markets for national security purposes, Crispell replied, "I have no way of knowing what operations are [being affected by our assets] outside the country."
 
2014-01-27 03:15:33 PM

Wicked Chinchilla: Well, my answer to you isn't the most moral (its pretty amoral actually) but its because everyone who is capable of it is spying on as many people as they can.  Whether it be industrial espionage, military espionage, scientific espionage, its happening and has been happening for forever.  You know who some of the most common countries are that spy on the US in all walks of life?  Israel and France.

Its a slippery slope but the entire world has already fell right into it.  Look at the technology world.  You don't think Silicon valley is a MASSIVE target for intelligence operations or a role in national security?  Our military advantages are firmly rooted into technological advantages.

I know its a cynical perspective, but I think one would have a hard time finding an era where industrial espionage wasn't fair game.


Sure, but it's a bit harder so sell that saying you are doing it 4 TEH CHILDRENZ.
 
2014-01-27 03:25:51 PM

Chalji: So...Snowden jsut realized that realpolitik isn't just a theory but also how the world works?

Countries spy on other countries. That is why we have intelligence services.


So you're saying he's revealed nothing.
 
2014-01-27 03:29:48 PM

Flab: gaslight: Flab: vpb: Rafale is a company?

Came here to ask this as well.

Well, Dassault.

I know that.  I even know where the name comes from, but in the true Fark tradition of nitpicking till it hurts, we were simply pointing out that the name of one of the aircrafts built by this company is not the same as the company name itself, and therefore shareholders would own stock in "Groupe Industriel Marcel Dassault S.A.", not "Rafale."


www.makeupandbeautyblog.com

Dassault-N-Pepa
 
2014-01-27 03:42:36 PM

Voiceofreason01: and Boeing still couldn't win the bid for Brasil's new jet fighter


Maybe if they stopped outsourcing parts that fail, they'd get the contract.
 
2014-01-27 03:55:59 PM

TheShavingofOccam123: Oh, he dead now.

You can fark with Uncle Sam but don't fark with the people who run Wall Street or other huge financial interests.

He dead.


Pretty much this. As with most things in life, follow the money....

Or the pu$$y.
 
2014-01-27 03:58:35 PM

foo monkey: You think Snowden is pissed we haven't taken up pitchforks and torches?  The stuff he's revealed should have caused a revolution, but nope.  Nothing's changed.


Two words: "bread" and "circuses."

As long as Americans can eat cheap fast food, pizza and beer (bread) and as long as most of the shows on TV are wrasslin', reality shows, sports and Fox News (circuses), the pitchforks will remain un-picked-up and the torches will remain unlit.

/plus there's the S***r B**l next weekend in New Jersey
//and after the S***r B**l is the O******s in Russia
///pay extra close attention to how I did not infringe upon any trademarks in my slashies
 
2014-01-27 03:59:57 PM

vpb: Rafale is a company?

Isn't it Ted Cruz's  father?

 
2014-01-27 04:08:14 PM
photos.imageevent.com
 
2014-01-27 04:13:13 PM
He must have some stuff that is really, really bad for the government.  Why?  Because he's still alive.  Honestly the government probably wants him to stay alive, to the point where they would covertly protect him.

//Assumes he has some kind of "If I die, this stuff will be released" thing in place.
 
2014-01-27 04:43:20 PM
Not surprised! It's the whole reason why Brazil is upset with the US, because they hacked their ways into the cellphone of PetroBras' CEO and PetroBras' email server.
 
2014-01-27 05:09:01 PM

foo monkey: You think Snowden is pissed we haven't taken up pitchforks and torches?  The stuff he's revealed should have caused a revolution, but nope.  Nothing's changed.


That's because everyone already knew all of it. Governments spy on other governments and private businesses to help out their own government and private businesses. It's just what they do. Every country's government does it, except maybe the ones too poor to have decent espionage programs. And yes, that includes allies. We've caught Russian and British spies on American soil before, but nobody really cared because it's not a big deal. The only reason anyone cares about this is because it's a convenient excuse for anti-American hate.
 
2014-01-27 05:55:41 PM

foo monkey: You think Snowden is pissed we haven't taken up pitchforks and torches?  The stuff he's revealed should have caused a revolution, but nope.  Nothing's changed.


Oh look there is a kimyae on tv talking about how hard it is selecting gifts to get from rich friends.

/we should be putting people on trial
//but that would rock the boat
///we're doomed
 
2014-01-27 05:57:34 PM

exparrot: vpb: Rafale is a company?

Isn't it Ted Cruz's  father?


I thought that was Romney's horse?
 
2014-01-27 07:31:36 PM

ManateeGag: TheShavingofOccam123: Oh, he dead now.

You can fark with Uncle Sam but don't fark with the people who run Wall Street or other huge financial interests.

He dead.

he'll be fine until Putin no longer finds him useful.


Dude is probably being monitored 24/7, and the KGB is hoping to find out where he's keeping the rest of the USA's secrets and how to access them. Once that happens, expect Mr. Snowden to suddenly "disappear".
 
2014-01-27 07:44:16 PM

ignacio: foo monkey: You think Snowden is pissed we haven't taken up pitchforks and torches?  The stuff he's revealed should have caused a revolution, but nope.  Nothing's changed.

That's because everyone already knew all of it. Governments spy on other governments and private businesses to help out their own government and private businesses. It's just what they do. Every country's government does it, except maybe the ones too poor to have decent espionage programs. And yes, that includes allies. We've caught Russian and British spies on American soil before, but nobody really cared because it's not a big deal. The only reason anyone cares about this is because it's a convenient excuse for anti-American hate. we might actually be good at it, and as a side effect good at keeping their spies from getting doing the same to us.


My thoughts: not fond of the internal spying, but there's no reason to believe we're immune to spying from other countries.
 
2014-01-27 08:10:37 PM
I sure hope Russia has a good security team protecting that kid.

Yikes.
 
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