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(The Local)   Nazi death camp museum employees use museum's office equipment to produce and distribute anti-Semitic propaganda   (thelocal.de) divider line 136
    More: Ironic, death camps, office equipment, Egyptian capital, antisemitisms, DPA, whale meat, Stasi, Pep Guardiola  
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5960 clicks; posted to Main » on 26 Jan 2014 at 10:11 PM (26 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-01-27 12:23:49 PM

InterruptingQuirk: grumpfuff: InterruptingQuirk: grumpfuff: It's making denying what actually happened illegal.

There are lots of things that people believe that didn't happen and vice versa. Are you advocating that we mandate a consensus of truth and then regulate conformity to that official narrative?

The Holocaust happening is not a matter of belief.

To some people it is, stupid though it may be. Is it not people's right anymore to be stupid? I think we will find ourselves banging our heads against the wall trying legislate stupidity away.


Some people also think it's valid to teach ID in science class.
 
2014-01-27 12:24:45 PM

InterruptingQuirk: To some people it is, stupid though it may be. Is it not people's right anymore to be stupid? I think we will find ourselves banging our heads against the wall trying legislate stupidity away.


Sure it is. However, in Germany, it is not your right to be public and in the faces of others with that stupidity.

Freedom of Speech is not absolute, even in the United States. There are far more egregious abuses of it you could be going after in Europe, such as the use of liberal slander and libel laws to stifle scientific research and political dissent.
 
2014-01-27 12:36:31 PM

grumpfuff: InterruptingQuirk: grumpfuff: InterruptingQuirk: grumpfuff: It's making denying what actually happened illegal.

There are lots of things that people believe that didn't happen and vice versa. Are you advocating that we mandate a consensus of truth and then regulate conformity to that official narrative?

The Holocaust happening is not a matter of belief.

To some people it is, stupid though it may be. Is it not people's right anymore to be stupid? I think we will find ourselves banging our heads against the wall trying legislate stupidity away.

Some people also think it's valid to teach ID in science class.


I reiterate.
 
2014-01-27 12:38:21 PM

hardinparamedic: InterruptingQuirk: To some people it is, stupid though it may be. Is it not people's right anymore to be stupid? I think we will find ourselves banging our heads against the wall trying legislate stupidity away.

Sure it is. However, in Germany, it is not your right to be public and in the faces of others with that stupidity.

Freedom of Speech is not absolute, even in the United States. There are far more egregious abuses of it you could be going after in Europe, such as the use of liberal slander and libel laws to stifle scientific research and political dissent.


Please don't bring up yelling FIRE! in a movie theatre. Of course there are worse abuses, they're always are, but the discussion was about this particular topic. What's it called when someone uses examples of something more offensive to belittle the seriousness of the first example being talked about?
 
2014-01-27 12:43:28 PM

InterruptingQuirk: Please don't bring up yelling FIRE! in a movie theatre. Of course there are worse abuses, they're always are, but the discussion was about this particular topic. What's it called when someone uses examples of something more offensive to belittle the seriousness of the first example being talked about?


My point, since you seem to have either missed it, or ignored it completely, is that it's perfectly acceptable to the German people as a whole - and much of Europe who suffered at the hands of the Nazis - to outlaw denial and "dissent" about the Holocaust and glorification of Hitler. And I'm not bringing up "Fire". I'm talking about the incitement of violence and hate that is par for the course for the NeoNazi and Skinhead crowds.

While I can understand why you, living in Chicago, Illinois, United States of America might have a little bit of a problem with it, it's truly irrelevant to the greater scheme of things, and I'm sure the German people will survive just fine in a free world without your white knighting of their perceived abuses of freedom of speech.
 
2014-01-27 12:44:16 PM

InterruptingQuirk: grumpfuff: InterruptingQuirk: grumpfuff: InterruptingQuirk: grumpfuff: It's making denying what actually happened illegal.

There are lots of things that people believe that didn't happen and vice versa. Are you advocating that we mandate a consensus of truth and then regulate conformity to that official narrative?

The Holocaust happening is not a matter of belief.

To some people it is, stupid though it may be. Is it not people's right anymore to be stupid? I think we will find ourselves banging our heads against the wall trying legislate stupidity away.

Some people also think it's valid to teach ID in science class.

I reiterate.


When that stupidity harms others and can hinder progress, no, it is not their right.
 
2014-01-27 12:45:52 PM

grumpfuff: stonelotus: 2) a 1% failure rate sounds good to you?

Considering the only failure I've ever heard of is the Daily Fail story you linked to, I figured I'd be generous and assume 1% failure rate instead of 0.

stonelotus: 3) the vast majority of germans apparently thought it was a good idea to eliminate the jews at one point too.  your point?

Actually, they didn't, but go on with your pre-concieved notions.

stonelotus: 4) guy, a man was jailed because he taught his dog to raise its paw.

Which, again, is from the Daily Fail, which means I have doubts about it actually happening.

stonelotus: 5) you do know how to google don't you?

You make the assertions, you provide the evidence.

stonelotus: 6) typical response.  nah sparky, I'm not a holocaust denier.  I'm a holocaust don't-give-a-farker.  regardless, whether I believe it happened or didn't, I'm not the one who turned it into an industry, hence the trademark lest someone try to sue me for infringement.  and yeah, it's still legislating history, no matter how much you don't want it to be.  but hey, maybe you can lobby for some laws to make people care!

Again, this is not about belief. It is about actual, factual, history. The "turning it into an industry" isn't helping your cause either.

Would you also be against a law that says "Teaching that John Smith was the first president of the USA is illegal"?


how lazy are you exactly?
 
2014-01-27 12:52:01 PM

hardinparamedic: InterruptingQuirk: Please don't bring up yelling FIRE! in a movie theatre. Of course there are worse abuses, they're always are, but the discussion was about this particular topic. What's it called when someone uses examples of something more offensive to belittle the seriousness of the first example being talked about?

My point, since you seem to have either missed it, or ignored it completely, is that it's perfectly acceptable to the German people as a whole - and much of Europe who suffered at the hands of the Nazis - to outlaw denial and "dissent" about the Holocaust and glorification of Hitler. And I'm not bringing up "Fire". I'm talking about the incitement of violence and hate that is par for the course for the NeoNazi and Skinhead crowds.

While I can understand why you, living in Chicago, Illinois, United States of America might have a little bit of a problem with it, it's truly irrelevant to the greater scheme of things, and I'm sure the German people will survive just fine in a free world without your white knighting of their perceived abuses of freedom of speech.


Just for the record, mentioning yelling fire in a theatre is a general acknowledgment of the whole inciting violence limitation on free speech. Also, I am not white knighting for the Germans, I am preemptively defending our rights here in the U.S.A. before they get to that level.
 
2014-01-27 12:54:05 PM

grumpfuff: InterruptingQuirk: grumpfuff: InterruptingQuirk: grumpfuff: InterruptingQuirk: grumpfuff: It's making denying what actually happened illegal.

There are lots of things that people believe that didn't happen and vice versa. Are you advocating that we mandate a consensus of truth and then regulate conformity to that official narrative?

The Holocaust happening is not a matter of belief.

To some people it is, stupid though it may be. Is it not people's right anymore to be stupid? I think we will find ourselves banging our heads against the wall trying legislate stupidity away.

Some people also think it's valid to teach ID in science class.

I reiterate.

When that stupidity harms others and can hinder progress, no, it is not their right.


Just to use you example of teaching ID in science class. How does that harm people? Do not start down on some righteous track on how ID is not science, that is not what this is about. You said it harms people.
 
2014-01-27 12:58:02 PM
it's not that these laws are realy hard to live under.
It' rather that it make the german governement look like it think of his citizens like morons who would turn into nazis upon seeing a swatiska .
Or whorse, it make them look like fool who think a swatiska has some magical power

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolfenstein_3D#Controversy

Regarding holocaust denials laws, after reading a book by a repented neo-nazy, I can understand how they feel like they are victim of conspiracy.
 
2014-01-27 12:58:17 PM

Fano: This is the repugnant truth about the Holocaust. Western Civilization holds its nose and says, "how did you crazy people ever do THAT?" When THAT is exactly what anti-semitic thought that ran through Western Culture for 1500 years said. All the Nazis did was add a mechanized industrial twist. Everyone was complicit.


Denmark wasn't.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rescue_of_the_Danish_Jews
 
2014-01-27 12:59:46 PM

The Dogs of War: After re-reading the article when I wasn't dead tired, I realized this was in Lublin. I visited Lubin and the Majdanek death camp in the summer of 2012. It was a very surreal place. The camp was literally next to the town; I could see downtown from the center of camp. There are two monuments dedicated to those who died there. I also visited the crematorium. Very unsettling places.


Speaking of surreal, step out of the train in dachau, get confronted by a gigantic "wilkommen en dachau" mcdonalds sign on the wall of the station.

/the camp itself is underwhelming, empty rooms and walls of text.
 
2014-01-27 01:10:03 PM

stonelotus: grumpfuff: stonelotus: 2) a 1% failure rate sounds good to you?

Considering the only failure I've ever heard of is the Daily Fail story you linked to, I figured I'd be generous and assume 1% failure rate instead of 0.

stonelotus: 3) the vast majority of germans apparently thought it was a good idea to eliminate the jews at one point too.  your point?

Actually, they didn't, but go on with your pre-concieved notions.

stonelotus: 4) guy, a man was jailed because he taught his dog to raise its paw.

Which, again, is from the Daily Fail, which means I have doubts about it actually happening.

stonelotus: 5) you do know how to google don't you?

You make the assertions, you provide the evidence.

stonelotus: 6) typical response.  nah sparky, I'm not a holocaust denier.  I'm a holocaust don't-give-a-farker.  regardless, whether I believe it happened or didn't, I'm not the one who turned it into an industry, hence the trademark lest someone try to sue me for infringement.  and yeah, it's still legislating history, no matter how much you don't want it to be.  but hey, maybe you can lobby for some laws to make people care!

Again, this is not about belief. It is about actual, factual, history. The "turning it into an industry" isn't helping your cause either.

Would you also be against a law that says "Teaching that John Smith was the first president of the USA is illegal"?

how lazy are you exactly?


FTFA: "according to the British tabloid The Sun. "

So instead of the Daily Fail, you go with a website basing their story on a tabloid.

And it still doesn't address that one example =/= rampant abuse of it.
 
2014-01-27 01:11:17 PM

o'really: The Dogs of War: After re-reading the article when I wasn't dead tired, I realized this was in Lublin. I visited Lubin and the Majdanek death camp in the summer of 2012. It was a very surreal place. The camp was literally next to the town; I could see downtown from the center of camp. There are two monuments dedicated to those who died there. I also visited the crematorium. Very unsettling places.

Speaking of surreal, step out of the train in dachau, get confronted by a gigantic "wilkommen en dachau" mcdonalds sign on the wall of the station.

/the camp itself is underwhelming, empty rooms and walls of text.


It's sort of macabre but I always wished someone would build an exact replica of the large shower complex of Dachau in the US. Let people go in and experience what is was like to be herded into a room together, have the doors locked shut and lights go out.

Let people experience as closely as possible what efficiency experts can bring to murder.

/nudity and sounds of gas being released are probably right out
 
2014-01-27 01:11:22 PM

InterruptingQuirk: grumpfuff: InterruptingQuirk: grumpfuff: InterruptingQuirk: grumpfuff: InterruptingQuirk: grumpfuff: It's making denying what actually happened illegal.

There are lots of things that people believe that didn't happen and vice versa. Are you advocating that we mandate a consensus of truth and then regulate conformity to that official narrative?

The Holocaust happening is not a matter of belief.

To some people it is, stupid though it may be. Is it not people's right anymore to be stupid? I think we will find ourselves banging our heads against the wall trying legislate stupidity away.

Some people also think it's valid to teach ID in science class.

I reiterate.

When that stupidity harms others and can hinder progress, no, it is not their right.

Just to use you example of teaching ID in science class. How does that harm people? Do not start down on some righteous track on how ID is not science, that is not what this is about. You said it harms people.


Having kids improperly educated, or taught flat out lies, is harmful in my opinion.
 
2014-01-27 01:19:22 PM
stonelotus
4) guy, a man was jailed because he taught his dog to raise its paw.


Yeah? I just bothered Google and looked up stories about this in German papers instead of the Daily Fail or its German equivalents.
There the story reads sliiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiigthly different.
Let me fix that for you:

Guy, a judge didn't give a fark about that dog raising its paw in front of police officer; the judge cared, however, about the accompanying Hitler T-shirt wearing owner making the Nazi salute and shouting "Sieg Heil". Shiat, even that was overlooked because he's brain damaged.
This repeat, mentally unstable offender
had been handed suspended sentences by courts since 2003 and was said to be notorious for openly giving Nazi salutes and wearing pro-Hitler T-shirts
Guy, this man was finally jailed and fined for causing a car crash while driving drunk.
His totally sane reaction to this was C): he planned to have [the dog]put down on the anniversary of the dictator's suicide.
This, he said, was because he could not afford dog food after being fined for other Nazi-related behaviour. driving drunk and causing an accident.


If you can read German, here are some more fun details about this guy's earlier antics:
http://www.tagesspiegel.de/berlin/geklaeffe-von-ganz-rechts/456600.h tm l
Who would have thought that law enforcement overlooking-all-your-Nazi-shiat might frown upon you causing a gun scare by waving around and firing a blank pistol at a children's daycare.
I didn't bother looking for a follow-up, but I wouldn't be surprised if this was the incident that let to the judge suggesting psychiatric treatment and him being on probation/getting the suspended sentence mentioned above.
 
2014-01-27 01:27:21 PM

TheShavingofOccam123: o'really: The Dogs of War: After re-reading the article when I wasn't dead tired, I realized this was in Lublin. I visited Lubin and the Majdanek death camp in the summer of 2012. It was a very surreal place. The camp was literally next to the town; I could see downtown from the center of camp. There are two monuments dedicated to those who died there. I also visited the crematorium. Very unsettling places.

Speaking of surreal, step out of the train in dachau, get confronted by a gigantic "wilkommen en dachau" mcdonalds sign on the wall of the station.

/the camp itself is underwhelming, empty rooms and walls of text.

It's sort of macabre but I always wished someone would build an exact replica of the large shower complex of Dachau in the US. Let people go in and experience what is was like to be herded into a room together, have the doors locked shut and lights go out.

Let people experience as closely as possible what efficiency experts can bring to murder.

/nudity and sounds of gas being released are probably right out


gas-chamber wasn't the worse that could happen to you, nor was it efficient.
Labor camps were. Extermination by work.
Like the V2 factorys, overseen by Werner von Braun, or the Varta batery factory wich is responsible for a big shunk of the Quandt family wealth.
Prety much all of germany's big company used the free workforce, and almost none of the job-creators payed for it after the end of WW2.
Seeing the Mercedes star on top of that building just near the Gedäschnisskirsche in Berlin always make me sick.
 
2014-01-27 01:32:19 PM

The Voice of Doom: stonelotus
4) guy, a man was jailed because he taught his dog to raise its paw.

Yeah? I just bothered Google and looked up stories about this in German papers instead of the Daily Fail or its German equivalents.
There the story reads sliiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiigthly different.
Let me fix that for you:

Guy, a judge didn't give a fark about that dog raising its paw in front of police officer; the judge cared, however, about the accompanying Hitler T-shirt wearing owner making the Nazi salute and shouting "Sieg Heil". Shiat, even that was overlooked because he's brain damaged.
This repeat, mentally unstable offender
had been handed suspended sentences by courts since 2003 and was said to be notorious for openly giving Nazi salutes and wearing pro-Hitler T-shirts
Guy, this man was finally jailed and fined for causing a car crash while driving drunk.
His totally sane reaction to this was C): he planned to have [the dog]put down on the anniversary of the dictator's suicide.
This, he said, was because he could not afford dog food after being fined for other Nazi-related behaviour. driving drunk and causing an accident.

If you can read German, here are some more fun details about this guy's earlier antics:
http://www.tagesspiegel.de/berlin/geklaeffe-von-ganz-rechts/456600.h tm l
Who would have thought that law enforcement overlooking-all-your-Nazi-shiat might frown upon you causing a gun scare by waving around and firing a blank pistol at a children's daycare.
I didn't bother looking for a follow-up, but I wouldn't be surprised if this was the incident that let to the judge suggesting psychiatric treatment and him being on probation/getting the suspended sentence mentioned above.


golfclap.jpg
 
2014-01-27 01:37:33 PM

grumpfuff: InterruptingQuirk: grumpfuff: InterruptingQuirk: grumpfuff: InterruptingQuirk: grumpfuff: InterruptingQuirk: grumpfuff: It's making denying what actually happened illegal.

There are lots of things that people believe that didn't happen and vice versa. Are you advocating that we mandate a consensus of truth and then regulate conformity to that official narrative?

The Holocaust happening is not a matter of belief.

To some people it is, stupid though it may be. Is it not people's right anymore to be stupid? I think we will find ourselves banging our heads against the wall trying legislate stupidity away.

Some people also think it's valid to teach ID in science class.

I reiterate.

When that stupidity harms others and can hinder progress, no, it is not their right.

Just to use you example of teaching ID in science class. How does that harm people? Do not start down on some righteous track on how ID is not science, that is not what this is about. You said it harms people.

Having kids improperly educated, or taught flat out lies, is harmful in my opinion.


I suppose we could make that stretch if we frame our definition of harm based on the DSM-V. But back to there folks who are spouting denialist nonsense in the streets. They are a far cry from teaching it in classrooms.
 
2014-01-27 01:42:30 PM

stonelotus: nah sparky, I'm not a holocaust denier. I'm a holocaust don't-give-a-farker. regardless, whether I believe it happened or didn't, I'm not the one who turned it into an industry, hence the trademark lest someone try to sue me for infringement. and yeah, it's still legislating history, no matter how much you don't want it to be. but hey, maybe you can lobby for some laws to make people care!


Yeah, you don't sound like a denier at all.
 
2014-01-27 01:43:02 PM

InterruptingQuirk: grumpfuff: InterruptingQuirk: grumpfuff: InterruptingQuirk: grumpfuff: InterruptingQuirk: grumpfuff: InterruptingQuirk: grumpfuff: It's making denying what actually happened illegal.

There are lots of things that people believe that didn't happen and vice versa. Are you advocating that we mandate a consensus of truth and then regulate conformity to that official narrative?

The Holocaust happening is not a matter of belief.

To some people it is, stupid though it may be. Is it not people's right anymore to be stupid? I think we will find ourselves banging our heads against the wall trying legislate stupidity away.

Some people also think it's valid to teach ID in science class.

I reiterate.

When that stupidity harms others and can hinder progress, no, it is not their right.

Just to use you example of teaching ID in science class. How does that harm people? Do not start down on some righteous track on how ID is not science, that is not what this is about. You said it harms people.

Having kids improperly educated, or taught flat out lies, is harmful in my opinion.

I suppose we could make that stretch if we frame our definition of harm based on the DSM-V. But back to there folks who are spouting denialist nonsense in the streets. They are a far cry from teaching it in classrooms.


The big issue of the law is that it's less about preventing whack jobs from spouting denialist stuff on a corner, and more about groups using it to inspire hate and violence.
 
2014-01-27 01:50:34 PM

grumpfuff: InterruptingQuirk: grumpfuff: InterruptingQuirk: grumpfuff: InterruptingQuirk: grumpfuff: InterruptingQuirk: grumpfuff: InterruptingQuirk: grumpfuff: It's making denying what actually happened illegal.

There are lots of things that people believe that didn't happen and vice versa. Are you advocating that we mandate a consensus of truth and then regulate conformity to that official narrative?

The Holocaust happening is not a matter of belief.

To some people it is, stupid though it may be. Is it not people's right anymore to be stupid? I think we will find ourselves banging our heads against the wall trying legislate stupidity away.

Some people also think it's valid to teach ID in science class.

I reiterate.

When that stupidity harms others and can hinder progress, no, it is not their right.

Just to use you example of teaching ID in science class. How does that harm people? Do not start down on some righteous track on how ID is not science, that is not what this is about. You said it harms people.

Having kids improperly educated, or taught flat out lies, is harmful in my opinion.

I suppose we could make that stretch if we frame our definition of harm based on the DSM-V. But back to there folks who are spouting denialist nonsense in the streets. They are a far cry from teaching it in classrooms.

The big issue of the law is that it's less about preventing whack jobs from spouting denialist stuff on a corner, and more about groups using it to inspire  hate and violence.


OK, now you added a variable which doesn't fall under the classic inciting to violence classification. I know that there are legal modifiers to criminal laws here in the states which amplify the consequences when 'intentions and feelings' are socially unacceptable. But those only ever come into play when there has actually been an act of violence committed. Were you including that mention as one of those modifiers I mentioned or are you categorizing it separately as its own crime?
 
2014-01-27 03:07:25 PM

grumpfuff: 4) They are not as strict as most people seem to think. There is no law preventing reading or talking about Nazis, etc. It is only when you cast them in a positive light that the law takes effect.


It's hard to see how Wolfenstein 3D was putting them in a positive light, when the whole object of the game was to shoot them all, but it still got banned for some reason... Maybe they've changed the laws or mellowed in the interpretation of them since that time?
 
2014-01-27 06:07:28 PM

cynicalbastard: One of the Big Lies, and this phrase whilst perhaps coined by Hitler definitely did not die with him any more than the technique it described, of German and European history in general, was that the Nazi anti-semtic ideology and the lengths which it was ready to go to was somehow an aberration, a freak of the times. In fact, their program would have never succeeded if it was.
There were in fact huge numbers of people in Germany, in France, Poland, and other occupied territories who thought that, in relation to the Jews, the Nazis had exactly the right idea. Pogroms, expulsions, systematic terror against the Jewish communities wherever they existed had been a fact of life in many parts of Europe where German was only spoken as a second language if it was spoken at all.
Almost everywhere that jackboots struck sparks off the cobblestones, it was merely necessary to announce Nazi policies against the Jewish population to ensure a great number of collaborators would show up. Of course, once the tide of the war turned, and the Nazis suffered defeat, there was a common tendency to hush up about all this.


Nor has anything really changed, nor is it exclusive to Europe, although Europe had a unique hatred of Jews and Roma that we reserve for blacks and dissenters, and of course homosexuals on both sides. I think it's just a human condition thing, every society has groups that they hate so much that many would cheer on a forced extermination program. The KKK is this on a small scale. If J. Edgar Hoover or Nixon had been just a little more insane, they might have done it to the hippies and revolutionaries, real and imagined.

Right now politics in this country is the most divided since Vietnam and the Civil Rights era, and the omnipresent death threats to the outspoken on both sides goes to show how many would be positively gleeful if they suddenly had permission to start killing, let alone if it was systematically organized and propagandized. The common hate for the lower class - the dirt poor, the panhandlers, the punks, the tweakers, the stoners, the prisoners - by middle-class liberals and conservatives alike is even scarier and where I could see it starting today.
 
2014-01-27 06:30:29 PM

RobSeace: grumpfuff: 4) They are not as strict as most people seem to think. There is no law preventing reading or talking about Nazis, etc. It is only when you cast them in a positive light that the law takes effect.

It's hard to see how Wolfenstein 3D was putting them in a positive light, when the whole object of the game was to shoot them all, but it still got banned for some reason... Maybe they've changed the laws or mellowed in the interpretation of them since that time?


It was just the letter of the law, things like Nazi flags and swastikas are just plain banned outside of educational contexts there. It was a time of Nazi Panic following re-unification, and it has abated to a degree, but there's still a strong reaction against any display of the iconography. Consider the reaction here if running through a school shooting kids and teachers was a big part of a mainstream game; not saying they're equivalent, but the revulsion and offense many Germans feel toward Nazism is. Despite the existence of school shooting mods, there'd probably be a strong push to ban popular commercial games of that sort here.

Of course, Return to Castle Wolfenstein got away with homages so similar that no one could have missed it.
 
2014-01-27 09:58:14 PM

o'really: Speaking of surreal, step out of the train in dachau, get confronted by a gigantic "wilkommen en dachau" mcdonalds sign on the wall of the station.

/the camp itself is underwhelming, empty rooms and walls of text.


My experience was unlike yours.
Of course, I knew that the short span of railroad tracks I walked beside were a small remnant of the very same ones where American soldiers liberating the camp walked a much longer line of cattle cars stuffed to overflowing with the remains of murdered, innocent human beings dumped there from other camps by their guards.
I knew that when I walked in the gates, I was walking into a slaughterhouse for thirty-one thousand human beings.
I also knew that Dachau was not an extermination camp and that many of the non-Jewish prisoners there, most of them
political prisoners, walked out free.
I knew that the crematoria sent smoke into the nearby towns downwind, including part of Munich, and that the people living there, to a person, claimed ignorance of what was going on there. I also know that the stench of burning human is absolutely unmistakable and unforgettable. After Desert Storm, the most popular soldiers were the ones with gasoline backup generators for good reason.

And I stood in that "underwhelming" graveyard next to my wife and looked at this
www.legendtech.net
and the words that filled me came from no "walls of text", but from the minyan of the murdered that surrounded us.
They were the words of the Sanctification of the Orphans, which is usually called the Mourner's Kaddish in English.

Unbidden, they tripped over my tongue and stumbled across my lips and out my mouth:
Yitgadal v'yitkadash sh'mei raba ...
(Exalted and hallowed be the great Name...
Blessed, praised, honored, exalted, extolled, glorified, adored, and lauded
be the name of the Holy Blessed One, beyond all earthly words and songs of blessing,
praise, and comfort ...
May the One who creates harmony on high bring peace to all ... )


And shortly after I concluded, "V'imru: Amen.", a group of Germans stopped in front of the sculpture, handed me their camera,
and asked me to take a group picture of them.
Then, laughing, they posed.

I didn't break their camera.
I didn't yell my outrage at them.
I took pictures while they clowned, laughed and posed.

And I vowed again never to forget.

/I hope they treasure the twenty-one blurry pictures I took of their ugly shoes.
 
2014-01-27 10:15:23 PM

demaL-demaL-yeH: And I vowed again never to forget.


Why were gasoline generators tied to soldier popularity and what is that photo of?
 
2014-01-27 10:20:17 PM

InterruptingQuirk: demaL-demaL-yeH: And I vowed again never to forget.

Why were gasoline generators tied to soldier popularity and what is that photo of?


Gasoline on your bandanna masks the stench of burnt human.
And that picture is a very famous sculpture in the Dachau concentration camp.
 
2014-01-27 10:34:01 PM

demaL-demaL-yeH: InterruptingQuirk: demaL-demaL-yeH: And I vowed again never to forget.

Why were gasoline generators tied to soldier popularity and what is that photo of?

Gasoline on your bandanna masks the stench of burnt human.
And that picture is a very famous sculpture in the Dachau concentration camp.


Burnt human flesh has no "stench". It actually smells quite nice, like pork. And smelling it does not cause nerve damage or cancer, unlike inhaling gasoline.
 
2014-01-27 10:42:18 PM

Tetzlaff: It actually smells quite nice, like pork.


While I agree with your take of the health/aesthetic benefit/cost ratio you queried on, that was an insensitive comparison to make.
 
2014-01-27 11:30:48 PM

Tetzlaff: Burnt human flesh has no "stench". It actually smells quite nice, like pork. And smelling it does not cause nerve damage or cancer, unlike inhaling gasoline.


While I can't say where you were in the aftermath of Desert Storm, I can make a definitive statement about where you weren't.
 
2014-01-27 11:43:36 PM

demaL-demaL-yeH: o'really: Speaking of surreal, step out of the train in dachau, get confronted by a gigantic "wilkommen en dachau" mcdonalds sign on the wall of the station.

/the camp itself is underwhelming, empty rooms and walls of text.

My experience was unlike yours.
Of course, I knew that the short span of railroad tracks I walked beside were a small remnant of the very same ones where American soldiers liberating the camp walked a much longer line of cattle cars stuffed to overflowing with the remains of murdered, innocent human beings dumped there from other camps by their guards.
I knew that when I walked in the gates, I was walking into a slaughterhouse for thirty-one thousand human beings.
I also knew that Dachau was not an extermination camp and that many of the non-Jewish prisoners there, most of them
political prisoners, walked out free.
I knew that the crematoria sent smoke into the nearby towns downwind, including part of Munich, and that the people living there, to a person, claimed ignorance of what was going on there. I also know that the stench of burning human is absolutely unmistakable and unforgettable. After Desert Storm, the most popular soldiers were the ones with gasoline backup generators for good reason.

And I stood in that "underwhelming" graveyard next to my wife and looked at this

and the words that filled me came from no "walls of text", but from the minyan of the murdered that surrounded us.
They were the words of the Sanctification of the Orphans, which is usually called the Mourner's Kaddish in English.

Unbidden, they tripped over my tongue and stumbled across my lips and out my mouth:
Yitgadal v'yitkadash sh'mei raba ...
(Exalted and hallowed be the great Name...
Blessed, praised, honored, exalted, extolled, glorified, adored, and lauded
be the name of the Holy Blessed One, beyond all earthly words and songs of blessing,
praise, and comfort ...
May the One who creates harmony on high bring peace to all ... )

And shortly after I concluded, "V'imru: Amen.", a group of Germans stopped in front of the sculpture, handed me their camera,
and asked me to take a group picture of them.
Then, laughing, they posed.

I didn't break their camera.
I didn't yell my outrage at them.
I took pictures while they clowned, laughed and posed.

And I vowed again never to forget.

/I hope they treasure the twenty-one blurry pictures I took of their ugly shoes.


It's not that i didn't appreciate the gravity of the history of the place, but i felt it was a ineffectively executed memorial on the whole.

but i respect the emotion you felt. I felt rather conflicted myself.

/ my family background is both German and Jewish
 
2014-01-28 12:07:09 AM

demaL-demaL-yeH: Tetzlaff: Burnt human flesh has no "stench". It actually smells quite nice, like pork. And smelling it does not cause nerve damage or cancer, unlike inhaling gasoline.

While I can't say where you were in the aftermath of Desert Storm, I can make a definitive statement about where you weren't.


Well, I wasn't running around with a gasoline soaked towel around my head. That's for sure.
 
2014-01-28 12:15:12 AM
o'really: demaL-demaL-yeH: o'really: Speaking of surreal, step out of the train in dachau, get confronted by a gigantic "wilkommen en dachau" mcdonalds sign on the wall of the station.


It's better than the...
...
And I vowed again never to forget.

/I hope they treasure the twenty-one blurry pictures I took of their ugly shoes.

It's not that i didn't appreciate the gravity of the history of the place, but i felt it was a ineffectively executed memorial on the whole.

but i respect the emotion you felt. I felt rather conflicted myself.

/ my family background is both German and Jewish


iat's better than the "misguided" holocaust memorial in the middle of Berlin, right next to the Brandenburg Gate and the US embassy. A bunch of concrete slabs tourists hop around on and, when they're drunk, piss against. The place is too large to be guarded by security properly to prevent that from happening.
Speaking of a memorial a country makes in the heart of it's capital to remember a horrible black mark in it's history and be humbled by it: When is Washington DC getting a Hiroshima/Nagasaki memorial?
 
2014-01-28 12:24:42 AM

Tetzlaff: demaL-demaL-yeH: Tetzlaff: Burnt human flesh has no "stench". It actually smells quite nice, like pork. And smelling it does not cause nerve damage or cancer, unlike inhaling gasoline.

While I can't say where you were in the aftermath of Desert Storm, I can make a definitive statement about where you weren't.

Well, I wasn't running around with a gasoline soaked towel around my head.


O.o

The bandanna covers the face.
A drop of gasoline in front of your nose.
Who the fark is dumbass enough to assume that anybody would run around all Molotov Cocktailhead?
/Flashblock. It just works.
//Hmm. Somebody just earned a farkie.
 
2014-01-28 07:34:44 AM

Tetzlaff: When is Washington DC getting a Hiroshima/Nagasaki memorial?


Never. And that is a good thing.


Read up on the battle of Okinawa, and what was coming from the Emperor prior to the first bombing. If you think that was all propaganda, ask yourself why they were prepared for another bombing before surrendering. Why did they declare martial law to stop anyone from making overtures of surrender.
 
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