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(The Local)   Nazi death camp museum employees use museum's office equipment to produce and distribute anti-Semitic propaganda   (thelocal.de) divider line 136
    More: Ironic, death camps, office equipment, Egyptian capital, antisemitisms, DPA, whale meat, Stasi, Pep Guardiola  
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5981 clicks; posted to Main » on 26 Jan 2014 at 10:11 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-01-26 11:54:12 PM  

InterruptingQuirk: Mugato: InterruptingQuirk: stonelotus: [i1207.photobucket.com image 650x365]

Now she's ready for her Spielberg closeup

[img.fark.net image 650x365]

Nice color correction

Just select and Colorize. Very quick and easy. But thanx anyways.


Eh, I've seen enough people fark it up.
 
2014-01-27 12:00:41 AM  

Jim_Callahan: In practice the application of the laws has historically been very different from the stated intent, is what I'm getting at here.


Except that the only thing outlawed by Germany is the promotion and glorification of Nazi Ideals and Symbols, and the public denial by authority figures of one of the most well documented and historically investigated atrocities in the history of mankind.

No one is preventing anyone from leaning about Hitler, his philosophies, or his writing.
No one is preventing someone from learning about the Nazis.

What they are, as a society, doing is to prevent his ideals from being glorified in a mass and public way.

Contrary to what is being inferred in this thread, Germany is not having mass bonfires of Mein Kampf. They are not rounding up people for reading it and throwing them in jail.
 
2014-01-27 12:00:47 AM  

Mr. Eugenides: InterruptingQuirk: InterruptingQuirk: GungFu: Peter von Nostrand: You know who else distributed...

Oh forget it

[1.bp.blogspot.com image 448x299]

The gays and gypsies and stuff, yeah, fark 'em.

This is a model of the Holocaust memorial set to be erected on the Ohio Statehouse lawn this spring

[ad009cdnb.archdaily.net image 528x393]

Better view

[i1.ytimg.com image 850x478]

Will the ACLU be protesting that?  Seems awfully full of religious iconography for statehouse grounds.


Can't imagine why they would. I assume that was snark, but just in case it wasn't, it may surprise you to know that most ACLU members can actually tell the difference between a historical marker and a present-day endorsement (establishment) of religion.
 
2014-01-27 12:05:16 AM  

anuran: Except that Americans don't read books.

"You don't have to burn books to destroy a culture. Just get people to stop reading them."
― Ray Bradbury


You shouldn't take his advice seriously, he was a fox news viewer.
 
2014-01-27 12:08:56 AM  

Mithiwithi: Can't imagine why they would. I assume that was snark, but just in case it wasn't, it may surprise you to know that most ACLU members can actually tell the difference between a historical marker and a present-day endorsement (establishment) of religion.


Like the Mt. Soledad Veterans Memorial Cross?
 
2014-01-27 12:11:22 AM  

legion_of_doo: Like the Mt. Soledad Veterans Memorial Cross?


It's not a "Veterans Memorial Cross".

Actually know what you're talking about, oh brave social justice warrior.
 
2014-01-27 12:12:11 AM  
FTA: charged them with incitement to hatred

Hence why there is no Fox New in Poland
 
2014-01-27 12:28:07 AM  
Fano:

"All the Dachaus must remain standing. The Dachaus the Belsens, the Buchenwalds, the Auschwitzes- all of them. They must remain standing because they are a monument to a moment in time when some men decided to turn the Earth into a graveyard. Into it they shoveled all of the their reason, their logic, their knowledge, but worst of all, their conscience. And the moment we forget this, the moment we cease to be haunted by this remembrance, then we become gravediggers. Something to dwell on and remember, not only on Fark but wherever men walk God's Earth."

This.
Bears Repeating


Mr. Eugenides:
This is a model of the Holocaust memorial set to be erected on the Ohio Statehouse lawn this spring

[ad009cdnb.archdaily.net image 528x393]

Will the ACLU be protesting that?  Seems awfully full of religious iconography for statehouse grounds.


Best you not worry your silly little head over that.
It is something you might not comprehend; but
Most everyone else does.
 
2014-01-27 12:39:37 AM  

hardinparamedic: Jim_Callahan: In practice the application of the laws has historically been very different from the stated intent, is what I'm getting at here.

Except that the only thing outlawed by Germany is the promotion and glorification of Nazi Ideals and Symbols, and the public denial by authority figures of one of the most well documented and historically investigated atrocities in the history of mankind.

No one is preventing anyone from leaning about Hitler, his philosophies, or his writing.
No one is preventing someone from learning about the Nazis.

What they are, as a society, doing is to prevent his ideals from being glorified in a mass and public way.

Contrary to what is being inferred in this thread, Germany is not having mass bonfires of Mein Kampf. They are not rounding up people for reading it and throwing them in jail.


Thank you for saying that in a more polite manner than I would have.

/girlfriend is from Germany
 
2014-01-27 12:47:42 AM  

hardinparamedic: nickdaisy: American Exceptionalism.

Yeah. Here's the thing. The Germans and most of Europe are still heavily ashamed of what happened between 1934 and 1945, and what their average citizens were capable of doing to each other. The holocaust denialism laws were enacted to prevent what had happened in the past with genocides and atrocities - namely them being denied, minimized, and even attempts at justification. They were also enacted during the 1980s due to a rise in ultra-nationalism and the skinhead movement in West Germany, and were kept on the books after unification because of the predominant East German communist attitude of "You're not responsible for the atrocities of World War II, you were good germans for following orders"

Also, it is NOT illegal to read or study Mein Kampf. Where the Germans, and many other European countries get testy is when you start publicly espousing what swell guy Hitler was, and how his ideas were pretty great after all.


If only the Japanese would do the same thing.
 
2014-01-27 01:09:22 AM  

Prey4reign: From a commenter to the article named "Brutus" -- "make these filth PROVE with a LIST of names and dates of the ludicrous 6 million gassed claims or SHUT THESE MONUMENTS TO JEWISH HISTORICAL MANIPULATION DOWN..............ENOUGH"

The Nazis may have been great records keepers, but I doubt they were this good.


Just get in touch with IBM. They provided machines, punchcards and software for the Nazis. That little number every concentration camp prisoner had tattooed on their arm? Yeah...

A French resistance member might have been one of the first computer hackers. He farked up the stacks of punchcards that the Nazis were using to deport people from France to death camps.
 
2014-01-27 01:10:00 AM  

hardinparamedic: legion_of_doo: Like the Mt. Soledad Veterans Memorial Cross?

It's not a "Veterans Memorial Cross".

Actually know what you're talking about, oh O brave social justice warrior.


Vocative O

/Sorry, pet peeve
 
2014-01-27 01:24:39 AM  

The Dogs of War: I worked with this guy a few years who said, and I quote, 'If the holocaust did happen, why are there still Jews?'

First time I was left speechless by someone's stupidity


wow.  i mean wow.
 
2014-01-27 01:29:28 AM  

Likwit: Germans and most of Europe are still heavily ashamed


You are an idiot.
 
2014-01-27 01:52:37 AM  

cman: Freedom to speak ones mind must be absolute in order for us to be morally right.


I though I'd heard the single most dumbassed thing I was going to hear today was an economics comment.

I was, unfortunately, wrong.
 
2014-01-27 01:54:18 AM  

demaL-demaL-yeH: cman: Freedom to speak ones mind must be absolute in order for us to be morally right.

I though I'd

read the single most dumbassed thing I was going to read today - it  was an economics comment.

I was, unfortunately, wrong.


Oy.
FTFM
 
2014-01-27 02:06:09 AM  

TheShavingofOccam123: Prey4reign: From a commenter to the article named "Brutus" -- "make these filth PROVE with a LIST of names and dates of the ludicrous 6 million gassed claims or SHUT THESE MONUMENTS TO JEWISH HISTORICAL MANIPULATION DOWN..............ENOUGH"

The Nazis may have been great records keepers, but I doubt they were this good.

Just get in touch with IBM. They provided machines, punchcards and software for the Nazis. That little number every concentration camp prisoner had tattooed on their arm? Yeah...

A French resistance member might have been one of the first computer hackers. He farked up the stacks of punchcards that the Nazis were using to deport people from France to death camps.


Was he wearing a belt onion when he did it?
 
2014-01-27 02:35:09 AM  
They identified one of the men as 50-year-old Krzysztof K. -- omitting his last name because of privacy laws

Because no one's going to be able to figure out which 50-year-old museum graphic artist who's first name is Krzysztof and last name starts with K is the right one.
 
2014-01-27 02:39:30 AM  

HortusMatris: They identified one of the men as 50-year-old Krzysztof K. -- omitting his last name because of privacy laws

Because no one's going to be able to figure out which 50-year-old museum graphic artist who's first name is Krzysztof and last name starts with K is the right one.


Well, they would have just used his initials, but since his middle name is Kevin...
 
2014-01-27 02:41:35 AM  

nickdaisy: 'm glad people in America aren't rushing out to buy Mein Kampf, but I'm proud we can buy and read whatever we choose to, without the government's approval. That individual freedom is the surest guard against tyranny-- not a law passed by some politician who is for sale to the highest bidder.


That's absurdly absolutist. Every functional society will place some limits on speech or printing if the harm to society is deemed to justify the limitation. Slander, libel, child pornography, revealing state or military secrets, threats of violence, instructions for assembling weapons of mass destruction, that sort of thing.

I will accept that political speech is in a different category. However, it's a damn sight easier to say that it isn't harmful when you're not staring into a Nazi gas chamber and need to ensure that that is never allowed to happen again.
 
2014-01-27 02:42:59 AM  

Brainsick: HortusMatris: They identified one of the men as 50-year-old Krzysztof K. -- omitting his last name because of privacy laws

Because no one's going to be able to figure out which 50-year-old museum graphic artist who's first name is Krzysztof and last name starts with K is the right one.

Well, they would have just used his initials, but since his middle name is Kevin...


[slowclap.gif]
 
2014-01-27 02:48:42 AM  

Oldiron_79: anuran: Except that Americans don't read books.

"You don't have to burn books to destroy a culture. Just get people to stop reading them."
― Ray Bradbury

You shouldn't take his advice seriously, he was a fox news viewer.


Ad Hominem with a touch of Genetic Fallacy. Yes, in his later years he was a teabagger. His point here is absolutely valid.
 
2014-01-27 02:56:35 AM  

Jim_Callahan: hardinparamedic: nickdaisy: American Exceptionalism.

Yeah. Here's the thing. The Germans and most of Europe are still heavily ashamed of what happened between 1934 and 1945, and what their average citizens were capable of doing to each other. The holocaust denialism laws were enacted to prevent what had happened in the past with genocides and atrocities - namely them being denied, minimized, and even attempts at justification. They were also enacted during the 1980s due to a rise in ultra-nationalism and the skinhead movement in West Germany, and were kept on the books after unification because of the predominant East German communist attitude of "You're not responsible for the atrocities of World War II, you were good germans for following orders"

Also, it is NOT illegal to read or study Mein Kampf. Where the Germans, and many other European countries get testy is when you start publicly espousing what swell guy Hitler was, and how his ideas were pretty great after all.

That's the theory, yes, in the same sense that in theory Jim Crow laws were all about making sure that people that only literate people with real knowledge of the issues can vote and that current voter ID law is just to prevent voter fraud.

In practice the application of the laws has historically been very different from the stated intent, is what I'm getting at here.

// This isn't uncommon in the US or Europe, for a law ostensibly justified for some popular/reasonable reason to actually be a lever for something nasty and anti-democratic, usually censorship or disenfranchisement.  Hell, just look at any law promoted with a straight-faced "think of the children".


Gun control is about protecting children.
 
2014-01-27 03:07:23 AM  

tomerson: Likwit: Germans and most of Europe are still heavily ashamed

You are an idiot.


So... I want the Japanese to be ashamed of what happened during the war too, and that makes me an idiot. I'm sorry, but you're going to have to explain that retarded position.
 
2014-01-27 03:21:03 AM  

tomerson: Likwit: Germans and most of Europe are still heavily ashamed

You are an idiot.


Likwit is right. You are the idiot.

/European
 
2014-01-27 04:23:29 AM  

hardinparamedic: legion_of_doo: Like the Mt. Soledad Veterans Memorial Cross?

It's not a "Veterans Memorial Cross".

Actually know what you're talking about, oh brave social justice warrior.


Indeed, thanks to legion_of_doo for giving us an excellent example of what I was talking about - in this case, a clear religious monument with a fig-leaf attempt to claim a secular purpose.
 
2014-01-27 04:51:44 AM  

nickdaisy: I'm glad people in America aren't rushing out to buy Mein Kampf, but I'm proud we can buy and read whatever we choose to, without the government's approval. That individual freedom is the surest guard against tyranny-- not a law passed by some politician who is for sale to the highest bidder.


On the other hand, you let your government kill its citizens. No death penalty anywhere in Europe.

Now, what do you think was the biggest problem with fascism? The "banning books" bit or the "killing people" bit?
 
2014-01-27 05:42:36 AM  

martid4: optikeye: nickdaisy: I'm glad people in America aren't rushing out to buy Mein Kampf, but I'm proud we can buy and read whatever we choose to, without the government's approval.

Why burn books when no one reads them?

I keep a copy of the Koran in the bathroom.


is it 2ply?
 
2014-01-27 05:43:53 AM  

anuran: Except that Americans don't read books.


Horseshiat.  Hours reading/week is largely uniform across the industrialized world.  A quick google search would have shown that, but hey, I understand. Prejudice is hard to give up.
 
2014-01-27 05:47:46 AM  

Fano: nickdaisy: Obviously this guy is an idiot, but it seems to me that all of those European laws that make it illegal to read Mein Kampf or throw one of those moronic Nazi salutes are a bad idea.

Seems to me the lesson from the fascist era is that we shouldn't vest government with absolute authority to tell us what to think and do-- even if that means a few fools will do foolish things.

I'm glad people in America aren't rushing out to buy Mein Kampf, but I'm proud we can buy and read whatever we choose to, without the government's approval. That individual freedom is the surest guard against tyranny-- not a law passed by some politician who is for sale to the highest bidder.

Who's with me?

"All the Dachaus must remain standing. The Dachaus the Belsens, the Buchenwalds, the Auschwitzes- all of them. They must remain standing because they are a monument to a moment in time when some men decided to turn the Earth into a graveyard. Into it they shoveled all of the their reason, their logic, their knowledge, but worst of all, their conscience. And the moment we forget this, the moment we cease to be haunted by this remembrance, then we become gravediggers. Something to dwell on and remember, not only on Fark but wherever men walk God's Earth."


Set that to a catchy jingle and you could sell  toilet paper.
 
2014-01-27 05:50:36 AM  

Peter von Nostrand: You know who else distributed...

Oh forget it


Jack Chick
 
2014-01-27 06:04:28 AM  

Prey4reign: From a commenter to the article named "Brutus" -- "make these filth PROVE with a LIST of names and dates of the ludicrous 6 million gassed claims or SHUT THESE MONUMENTS TO JEWISH HISTORICAL MANIPULATION DOWN..............ENOUGH"

The Nazis may have been great records keepers, but I doubt they were this good.


And I think a lot of records were destroyed by Allied forces, partisans etc when they attacked Nazi facilities.  But yeah those Nazis were an organized bunch of monsters, that's for sure.  Murdering your enemies is quite human, alas.  Tattoing them with a number so you can keep track of when and how you did it is... something else.
 
2014-01-27 06:09:08 AM  

tomerson: The Dogs of War: I worked with this guy a few years who said, and I quote, 'If the holocaust did happen, why are there still Jews?'

First time I was left speechless by someone's stupidity

wow.  i mean wow.


See, that's why we give nazis the right to free speech. They just use it to prove how stupid they are. (Of course, that may not have happened in the USA, but regardless).
/If I remember my History, Poles weren't exactly high on hitler's racial superiority list...
 
2014-01-27 06:11:17 AM  
One of the Big Lies, and this phrase whilst perhaps coined by Hitler definitely did not die with him any more than the technique it described, of German and European history in general, was that the Nazi anti-semtic ideology and the lengths which it was ready to go to was somehow an aberration, a freak of the times. In fact, their program would have never succeeded if it was.
There were in fact huge numbers of people in Germany, in France, Poland, and other occupied territories who thought that, in relation to the Jews, the Nazis had exactly the right idea. Pogroms, expulsions, systematic terror against the Jewish communities wherever they existed had been a fact of life in many parts of Europe where German was only spoken as a second language if it was spoken at all.
Almost everywhere that jackboots struck sparks off the cobblestones, it was merely necessary to announce Nazi policies against the Jewish population to ensure a great number of collaborators would show up. Of course, once the tide of the war turned, and the Nazis suffered defeat, there was a common tendency to hush up about all this.
 
2014-01-27 06:13:27 AM  
hardinparamedic:

Also, it is NOT illegal to read or study Mein Kampf. Where the Germans, and many other European countries get testy is when you start publicly espousing what swell guy Hitler was, and how his ideas were pretty great after all.

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mein_Kampf#Aktuelle_Rechtslage


not ilegal, but "mein Kampf" is property of the state of Bavaria til 2016, and they won't authorize print, so just the same as censored.
Puting it out would be a good thing IMO, because, if after reading it, you still pretend the nazis didn' kill that many "Untermenschen", you also have to aknowledge they totaly failed theyr objectives!

A funny thing about Germany is all the trivial things deemed "against the constitution", like children's songs from the former GDR (without any polical text) or the melody of the "Horst Wessell Lied" -wich was composed on an older melody- and got "Wolfenstein 3D" banned.
 
2014-01-27 06:53:55 AM  

nickdaisy: Obviously this guy is an idiot, but it seems to me that all of those European laws that make it illegal to read Mein Kampf or throw one of those moronic Nazi salutes are a bad idea.

Seems to me the lesson from the fascist era is that we shouldn't vest government with absolute authority to tell us what to think and do-- even if that means a few fools will do foolish things.

I'm glad people in America aren't rushing out to buy Mein Kampf, but I'm proud we can buy and read whatever we choose to, without the government's approval. That individual freedom is the surest guard against tyranny-- not a law passed by some politician who is for sale to the highest bidder.

Who's with me?



Maybe you could form an intellegent opinion on the matter if you had the vaguest notion of what you were actually talking about.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mein_Kampf#Poland

cman: . I can understand their intentions, but as a civilized nation, the government should be there to protect the rights of its citizens.


Not letting people lie about the holocaust does protect the rights of citizens.
 
2014-01-27 07:20:26 AM  
cman
nickdaisy: Obviously this guy is an idiot, but it seems to me that all of those European laws that make it illegal to read Mein Kampf or throw one of those moronic Nazi salutes are a bad idea.
Seems to me the lesson from the fascist era is that we shouldn't vest government with absolute authority to tell us what to think and do-- even if that means a few fools will do foolish things.
I'm glad people in America aren't rushing out to buy Mein Kampf, but I'm proud we can buy and read whatever we choose to, without the government's approval. That individual freedom is the surest guard against tyranny-- not a law passed by some politician who is for sale to the highest bidder.
Who's with me?

Me
The Holocaust was one of the most darkest periods in European history. I can understand their intentions, but as a civilized nation, the government should be there to protect the rights of its citizens.
One of the most near and dear rights we have is freedom of speech in the United States. This has brought us the American Revolution and the KKK. Freedom to speak ones mind must be absolute in order for us to be morally right.


The ironic thing here is that it could be argued that Americans are partly responsible for creating those freedom of speech limitings laws in Europe or at least in Germany.
 
2014-01-27 08:12:01 AM  

Richard C Stanford: tomerson: The Dogs of War: I worked with this guy a few years who said, and I quote, 'If the holocaust did happen, why are there still Jews?'

First time I was left speechless by someone's stupidity

wow.  i mean wow.

See, that's why we give nazis the right to free speech. They just use it to prove how stupid they are. (Of course, that may not have happened in the USA, but regardless).
/If I remember my History, Poles weren't exactly high on hitler's racial superiority list...


They were taking their jerbs.
 
2014-01-27 08:32:26 AM  

Mithiwithi: hardinparamedic: legion_of_doo: Like the Mt. Soledad Veterans Memorial Cross?

It's not a "Veterans Memorial Cross".
Actually know what you're talking about, oh brave social justice warrior.

Indeed, thanks to legion_of_doo for giving us an excellent example of what I was talking about - in this case, a clear religious monument with a fig-leaf attempt to claim a secular purpose.


You both are welcome. It's no skin off my nose either way on that cross, though. I just know it always raises a big stink here in California (i.e. welcome to fark.jpg, and so on).
 
2014-01-27 08:55:53 AM  

cynicalbastard: One of the Big Lies, and this phrase whilst perhaps coined by Hitler definitely did not die with him any more than the technique it described, of German and European history in general, was that the Nazi anti-semtic ideology and the lengths which it was ready to go to was somehow an aberration, a freak of the times. In fact, their program would have never succeeded if it was.
There were in fact huge numbers of people in Germany, in France, Poland, and other occupied territories who thought that, in relation to the Jews, the Nazis had exactly the right idea. Pogroms, expulsions, systematic terror against the Jewish communities wherever they existed had been a fact of life in many parts of Europe where German was only spoken as a second language if it was spoken at all.
Almost everywhere that jackboots struck sparks off the cobblestones, it was merely necessary to announce Nazi policies against the Jewish population to ensure a great number of collaborators would show up. Of course, once the tide of the war turned, and the Nazis suffered defeat, there was a common tendency to hush up about all this.


This is the repugnant truth about the Holocaust. Western Civilization holds its nose and says, "how did you crazy people ever do THAT?" When THAT is exactly what anti-semitic thought that ran through Western Culture for 1500 years said. All the Nazis did was add a mechanized industrial twist. Everyone was complicit.
 
2014-01-27 10:51:24 AM  

hardinparamedic: Jim_Callahan: In practice the application of the laws has historically been very different from the stated intent, is what I'm getting at here.

Except that the only thing outlawed by Germany is the promotion and glorification of Nazi Ideals and Symbols, and the public denial by authority figures of one of the most well documented and historically investigated atrocities in the history of mankind.

No one is preventing anyone from leaning about Hitler, his philosophies, or his writing.
No one is preventing someone from learning about the Nazis.

What they are, as a society, doing is to prevent his ideals from being glorified in a mass and public way.

Contrary to what is being inferred in this thread, Germany is not having mass bonfires of Mein Kampf. They are not rounding up people for reading it and throwing them in jail.


just stop building straw men already.

Mass jailings and book burnings?  No.  But there have been  ridiculous arrests and jailings over extremely loose intepretations of anti-Nazi symbolism, anti-semitism, and Holocaust™ denial laws,  Holocaust™ denial laws, in their own right, are farking stupid.  you're going to legislate history?
 
2014-01-27 11:02:57 AM  
After re-reading the article when I wasn't dead tired, I realized this was in Lublin. I visited Lubin and the Majdanek death camp in the summer of 2012. It was a very surreal place. The camp was literally next to the town; I could see downtown from the center of camp. There are two monuments dedicated to those who died there. I also visited the crematorium. Very unsettling places.
 
2014-01-27 11:10:03 AM  

stonelotus: hardinparamedic: Jim_Callahan: In practice the application of the laws has historically been very different from the stated intent, is what I'm getting at here.

Except that the only thing outlawed by Germany is the promotion and glorification of Nazi Ideals and Symbols, and the public denial by authority figures of one of the most well documented and historically investigated atrocities in the history of mankind.

No one is preventing anyone from leaning about Hitler, his philosophies, or his writing.
No one is preventing someone from learning about the Nazis.

What they are, as a society, doing is to prevent his ideals from being glorified in a mass and public way.

Contrary to what is being inferred in this thread, Germany is not having mass bonfires of Mein Kampf. They are not rounding up people for reading it and throwing them in jail.

just stop building straw men already.

Mass jailings and book burnings?  No.  But there have been  ridiculous arrests and jailings over extremely loose intepretations of anti-Nazi symbolism, anti-semitism, and Holocaust™ denial laws,  Holocaust™ denial laws, in their own right, are farking stupid.  you're going to legislate history?


You'll have to forgive me for taking the word of my German friends over one story from the Daily Fail.
 
2014-01-27 11:29:34 AM  

grumpfuff: stonelotus: hardinparamedic: Jim_Callahan: In practice the application of the laws has historically been very different from the stated intent, is what I'm getting at here.

Except that the only thing outlawed by Germany is the promotion and glorification of Nazi Ideals and Symbols, and the public denial by authority figures of one of the most well documented and historically investigated atrocities in the history of mankind.

No one is preventing anyone from leaning about Hitler, his philosophies, or his writing.
No one is preventing someone from learning about the Nazis.

What they are, as a society, doing is to prevent his ideals from being glorified in a mass and public way.

Contrary to what is being inferred in this thread, Germany is not having mass bonfires of Mein Kampf. They are not rounding up people for reading it and throwing them in jail.

just stop building straw men already.

Mass jailings and book burnings?  No.  But there have been  ridiculous arrests and jailings over extremely loose intepretations of anti-Nazi symbolism, anti-semitism, and Holocaust™ denial laws,  Holocaust™ denial laws, in their own right, are farking stupid.  you're going to legislate history?

You'll have to forgive me for taking the word of my German friends over one story from the Daily Fail.


you're forgiven.  now can you please try to be a little more vague?  one can almost ascertain what word, exactly, you have received from your German friends.
 
2014-01-27 11:41:22 AM  

stonelotus: grumpfuff: stonelotus: hardinparamedic: Jim_Callahan: In practice the application of the laws has historically been very different from the stated intent, is what I'm getting at here.

Except that the only thing outlawed by Germany is the promotion and glorification of Nazi Ideals and Symbols, and the public denial by authority figures of one of the most well documented and historically investigated atrocities in the history of mankind.

No one is preventing anyone from leaning about Hitler, his philosophies, or his writing.
No one is preventing someone from learning about the Nazis.

What they are, as a society, doing is to prevent his ideals from being glorified in a mass and public way.

Contrary to what is being inferred in this thread, Germany is not having mass bonfires of Mein Kampf. They are not rounding up people for reading it and throwing them in jail.

just stop building straw men already.

Mass jailings and book burnings?  No.  But there have been  ridiculous arrests and jailings over extremely loose intepretations of anti-Nazi symbolism, anti-semitism, and Holocaust™ denial laws,  Holocaust™ denial laws, in their own right, are farking stupid.  you're going to legislate history?

You'll have to forgive me for taking the word of my German friends over one story from the Daily Fail.

you're forgiven.  now can you please try to be a little more vague?  one can almost ascertain what word, exactly, you have received from your German friends.


1) The laws against holocaust denial, etc, are rarely, if ever invoked.
2) When they are invoked, 99% of the time they are done so properly.
3) The vast majority of Germans think the laws are a good idea.
4) They are not as strict as most people seem to think. There is no law preventing reading or talking about Nazis, etc. It is only when you cast them in a positive light that the law takes effect.
5) One example from the Daily Fail does not equate to   "ridiculous arrests and jailings over extremely loose intepretations of anti-Nazi symbolism, anti-semitism, and Holocaust™ denial laws "
6) As to this bit:

Holocaust™ denial laws, in their own right, are farking stupid.  you're going to legislate history?

That and your TM next to Holocaust make you sound like a denier. It's not legislating history. It's making denying what actually happened illegal.
 
2014-01-27 11:55:15 AM  

grumpfuff: It's making denying what actually happened illegal.


There are lots of things that people believe that didn't happen and vice versa. Are you advocating that we mandate a consensus of truth and then regulate conformity to that official narrative?
 
2014-01-27 12:01:00 PM  

InterruptingQuirk: grumpfuff: It's making denying what actually happened illegal.

There are lots of things that people believe that didn't happen and vice versa. Are you advocating that we mandate a consensus of truth and then regulate conformity to that official narrative?


The Holocaust happening is not a matter of belief.
 
2014-01-27 12:03:36 PM  

grumpfuff: stonelotus: grumpfuff: stonelotus: hardinparamedic: Jim_Callahan: In practice the application of the laws has historically been very different from the stated intent, is what I'm getting at here.

Except that the only thing outlawed by Germany is the promotion and glorification of Nazi Ideals and Symbols, and the public denial by authority figures of one of the most well documented and historically investigated atrocities in the history of mankind.

No one is preventing anyone from leaning about Hitler, his philosophies, or his writing.
No one is preventing someone from learning about the Nazis.

What they are, as a society, doing is to prevent his ideals from being glorified in a mass and public way.

Contrary to what is being inferred in this thread, Germany is not having mass bonfires of Mein Kampf. They are not rounding up people for reading it and throwing them in jail.

just stop building straw men already.

Mass jailings and book burnings?  No.  But there have been  ridiculous arrests and jailings over extremely loose intepretations of anti-Nazi symbolism, anti-semitism, and Holocaust™ denial laws,  Holocaust™ denial laws, in their own right, are farking stupid.  you're going to legislate history?

You'll have to forgive me for taking the word of my German friends over one story from the Daily Fail.

you're forgiven.  now can you please try to be a little more vague?  one can almost ascertain what word, exactly, you have received from your German friends.

1) The laws against holocaust denial, etc, are rarely, if ever invoked.
2) When they are invoked, 99% of the time they are done so properly.
3) The vast majority of Germans think the laws are a good idea.
4) They are not as strict as most people seem to think. There is no law preventing reading or talking about Nazis, etc. It is only when you cast them in a positive light that the law takes effect.
5) One example from the Daily Fail does not equate to   "ridiculous arrests and jailings over extremely loose ...


1) bad laws that are rarely invoked are still bad laws and their invocation is a travesty.
2) a 1% failure rate sounds good to you?
3) the vast majority of germans apparently thought it was a good idea to eliminate the jews at one point too.  your point?
4) guy, a man was jailed because he taught his dog to raise its paw.
5) you do know how to google don't you?
6) typical response.  nah sparky, I'm not a holocaust denier.  I'm a holocaust don't-give-a-farker.  regardless, whether I believe it happened or didn't, I'm not the one who turned it into an industry, hence the trademark lest someone try to sue me for infringement.  and yeah, it's still legislating history, no matter how much you don't want it to be.  but hey, maybe you can lobby for some laws to make people care!
 
2014-01-27 12:14:24 PM  

grumpfuff: InterruptingQuirk: grumpfuff: It's making denying what actually happened illegal.

There are lots of things that people believe that didn't happen and vice versa. Are you advocating that we mandate a consensus of truth and then regulate conformity to that official narrative?

The Holocaust happening is not a matter of belief.


To some people it is, stupid though it may be. Is it not people's right anymore to be stupid? I think we will find ourselves banging our heads against the wall trying legislate stupidity away.
 
2014-01-27 12:21:58 PM  

stonelotus: 2) a 1% failure rate sounds good to you?


Considering the only failure I've ever heard of is the Daily Fail story you linked to, I figured I'd be generous and assume 1% failure rate instead of 0.

stonelotus: 3) the vast majority of germans apparently thought it was a good idea to eliminate the jews at one point too.  your point?


Actually, they didn't, but go on with your pre-concieved notions.

stonelotus: 4) guy, a man was jailed because he taught his dog to raise its paw.


Which, again, is from the Daily Fail, which means I have doubts about it actually happening.

stonelotus: 5) you do know how to google don't you?


You make the assertions, you provide the evidence.

stonelotus: 6) typical response.  nah sparky, I'm not a holocaust denier.  I'm a holocaust don't-give-a-farker.  regardless, whether I believe it happened or didn't, I'm not the one who turned it into an industry, hence the trademark lest someone try to sue me for infringement.  and yeah, it's still legislating history, no matter how much you don't want it to be.  but hey, maybe you can lobby for some laws to make people care!


Again, this is not about belief. It is about actual, factual, history. The "turning it into an industry" isn't helping your cause either.

Would you also be against a law that says "Teaching that John Smith was the first president of the USA is illegal"?
 
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