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(The Local)   Nazi death camp museum employees use museum's office equipment to produce and distribute anti-Semitic propaganda   ( thelocal.de) divider line
    More: Ironic, death camps, office equipment, Egyptian capital, antisemitisms, DPA, whale meat, Stasi, Pep Guardiola  
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6022 clicks; posted to Main » on 26 Jan 2014 at 10:11 PM (3 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



136 Comments     (+0 »)
 
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest
 
2014-01-26 06:35:31 PM  
Obviously this guy is an idiot, but it seems to me that all of those European laws that make it illegal to read Mein Kampf or throw one of those moronic Nazi salutes are a bad idea.

Seems to me the lesson from the fascist era is that we shouldn't vest government with absolute authority to tell us what to think and do-- even if that means a few fools will do foolish things.

I'm glad people in America aren't rushing out to buy Mein Kampf, but I'm proud we can buy and read whatever we choose to, without the government's approval. That individual freedom is the surest guard against tyranny-- not a law passed by some politician who is for sale to the highest bidder.

Who's with me?
 
2014-01-26 07:04:31 PM  
Those arrested reportedly responded to the charges, stating "I know NOTHING"
 
2014-01-26 08:03:02 PM  

nickdaisy: I'm glad people in America aren't rushing out to buy Mein Kampf, but I'm proud we can buy and read whatever we choose to, without the government's approval.


Why burn books when no one reads them?
 
2014-01-26 08:10:48 PM  
nickdaisy: American Exceptionalism.

Yeah. Here's the thing. The Germans and most of Europe are still heavily ashamed of what happened between 1934 and 1945, and what their average citizens were capable of doing to each other. The holocaust denialism laws were enacted to prevent what had happened in the past with genocides and atrocities - namely them being denied, minimized, and even attempts at justification. They were also enacted during the 1980s due to a rise in ultra-nationalism and the skinhead movement in West Germany, and were kept on the books after unification because of the predominant East German communist attitude of "You're not responsible for the atrocities of World War II, you were good germans for following orders"

Also, it is NOT illegal to read or study Mein Kampf. Where the Germans, and many other European countries get testy is when you start publicly espousing what swell guy Hitler was, and how his ideas were pretty great after all.
 
2014-01-26 08:34:06 PM  
fta: He had allegedly worked there for over two decades and printed some of the anti-Semitic posters on office equipment.

Ironic or somewhat inevitable?

I'm sure a gig doing graphic design at Nazi death camp museum would appeal to a neo-Nazi nutbag in much the same way that child predators like to work in kid rich environments.

Sick farkers the lot of them.
 
2014-01-26 08:50:35 PM  
You know who else distributed...

Oh forget it
 
2014-01-26 09:07:21 PM  

nickdaisy: Obviously this guy is an idiot, but it seems to me that all of those European laws that make it illegal to read Mein Kampf or throw one of those moronic Nazi salutes are a bad idea.

Seems to me the lesson from the fascist era is that we shouldn't vest government with absolute authority to tell us what to think and do-- even if that means a few fools will do foolish things.

I'm glad people in America aren't rushing out to buy Mein Kampf, but I'm proud we can buy and read whatever we choose to, without the government's approval. That individual freedom is the surest guard against tyranny-- not a law passed by some politician who is for sale to the highest bidder.

Who's with me?


Me

The Holocaust was one of the most darkest periods in European history. I can understand their intentions, but as a civilized nation, the government should be there to protect the rights of its citizens.

One of the most near and dear rights we have is freedom of speech in the United States. This has brought us the American Revolution and the KKK. Freedom to speak ones mind must be absolute in order for us to be morally right.
 
2014-01-26 09:18:45 PM  

cman: nickdaisy: Obviously this guy is an idiot, but it seems to me that all of those European laws that make it illegal to read Mein Kampf or throw one of those moronic Nazi salutes are a bad idea.

Seems to me the lesson from the fascist era is that we shouldn't vest government with absolute authority to tell us what to think and do-- even if that means a few fools will do foolish things.

I'm glad people in America aren't rushing out to buy Mein Kampf, but I'm proud we can buy and read whatever we choose to, without the government's approval. That individual freedom is the surest guard against tyranny-- not a law passed by some politician who is for sale to the highest bidder.

Who's with me?

Me

The Holocaust was one of the most darkest periods in European history. I can understand their intentions, but as a civilized nation, the government should be there to protect the rights of its citizens.

One of the most near and dear rights we have is freedom of speech in the United States. This has brought us the American Revolution and the KKK. Freedom to speak ones mind must be absolute in order for us to be morally right.


I"m pretty sure that doesn't include using your employer's printing press.
 
2014-01-26 09:37:30 PM  
From a commenter to the article named "Brutus" -- "make these filth PROVE with a LIST of names and dates of the ludicrous 6 million gassed claims or SHUT THESE MONUMENTS TO JEWISH HISTORICAL MANIPULATION DOWN..............ENOUGH"

The Nazis may have been great records keepers, but I doubt they were this good.
 
2014-01-26 10:01:52 PM  
Morbid museum trifecta in play.
 
2014-01-26 10:13:25 PM  
ironic like a rent-a-clown child molester.

tragedy porn is tragedy porn
 
2014-01-26 10:18:39 PM  

optikeye: nickdaisy: I'm glad people in America aren't rushing out to buy Mein Kampf, but I'm proud we can buy and read whatever we choose to, without the government's approval.

Why burn books when no one reads them?


I keep a copy of the Koran in the bathroom.
 
2014-01-26 10:21:17 PM  

optikeye: nickdaisy: I'm glad people in America aren't rushing out to buy Mein Kampf, but I'm proud we can buy and read whatever we choose to, without the government's approval.

Why burn books when no one reads them?


Because burning a tablet is hard. Especially if it isn't a crappy iPad.
 
2014-01-26 10:22:05 PM  

nickdaisy: Obviously this guy is an idiot, but it seems to me that all of those European laws that make it illegal to read Mein Kampf or throw one of those moronic Nazi salutes are a bad idea.

Seems to me the lesson from the fascist era is that we shouldn't vest government with absolute authority to tell us what to think and do-- even if that means a few fools will do foolish things.

I'm glad people in America aren't rushing out to buy Mein Kampf, but I'm proud we can buy and read whatever we choose to, without the government's approval. That individual freedom is the surest guard against tyranny-- not a law passed by some politician who is for sale to the highest bidder.

Who's with me?


Nobody with an IQ over room teperature.
Your blog sucks.
 
2014-01-26 10:24:59 PM  

hardinparamedic: nickdaisy: American Exceptionalism.

Yeah. Here's the thing. The Germans and most of Europe are still heavily ashamed of what happened between 1934 and 1945, and what their average citizens were capable of doing to each other. The holocaust denialism laws were enacted to prevent what had happened in the past with genocides and atrocities - namely them being denied, minimized, and even attempts at justification. They were also enacted during the 1980s due to a rise in ultra-nationalism and the skinhead movement in West Germany, and were kept on the books after unification because of the predominant East German communist attitude of "You're not responsible for the atrocities of World War II, you were good germans for following orders"

Also, it is NOT illegal to read or study Mein Kampf. Where the Germans, and many other European countries get testy is when you start publicly espousing what swell guy Hitler was, and how his ideas were pretty great after all.


i don't think he was arguing that the laws weren't made with good intentions...nor do i really think he was exposing "american exceptionalism"
/European
 
2014-01-26 10:27:14 PM  
It's hard to keep a good man, who has good ideals, down. They tried it with Adolf and look at all the problems that created.
 
2014-01-26 10:28:14 PM  

optikeye: nickdaisy: I'm glad people in America aren't rushing out to buy Mein Kampf, but I'm proud we can buy and read whatever we choose to, without the government's approval.

Why burn books when no one reads them?


Wasn't it just in the news that mein kampf was rising dramatically on Amazon's list?

Also...

I hate polish nazis...
 
2014-01-26 10:28:21 PM  

nickdaisy: Obviously this guy is an idiot, but it seems to me that all of those European laws that make it illegal to read Mein Kampf or throw one of those moronic Nazi salutes are a bad idea.

Seems to me the lesson from the fascist era is that we shouldn't vest government with absolute authority to tell us what to think and do-- even if that means a few fools will do foolish things.

I'm glad people in America aren't rushing out to buy Mein Kampf, but I'm proud we can buy and read whatever we choose to, without the government's approval. That individual freedom is the surest guard against tyranny-- not a law passed by some politician who is for sale to the highest bidder.

Who's with me?


"All the Dachaus must remain standing. The Dachaus the Belsens, the Buchenwalds, the Auschwitzes- all of them. They must remain standing because they are a monument to a moment in time when some men decided to turn the Earth into a graveyard. Into it they shoveled all of the their reason, their logic, their knowledge, but worst of all, their conscience. And the moment we forget this, the moment we cease to be haunted by this remembrance, then we become gravediggers. Something to dwell on and remember, not only on Fark but wherever men walk God's Earth."
 
2014-01-26 10:30:00 PM  
It's good for business?

Doubtful.
 
2014-01-26 10:30:11 PM  
I blame the office equipment.
 
2014-01-26 10:30:34 PM  

nickdaisy: Obviously this guy is an idiot, but it seems to me that all of those European laws that make it illegal to read Mein Kampf or throw one of those moronic Nazi salutes are a bad idea.

Seems to me the lesson from the fascist era is that we shouldn't vest government with absolute authority to tell us what to think and do-- even if that means a few fools will do foolish things.

I'm glad people in America aren't rushing out to buy Mein Kampf, but I'm proud we can buy and read whatever we choose to, without the government's approval. That individual freedom is the surest guard against tyranny-- not a law passed by some politician who is for sale to the highest bidder.

Who's with me?


Wanna guess what title is #1 on Amazon's Propaganda & Spin chart?
 
2014-01-26 10:31:15 PM  
Officers detained the Poles in the eastern city of Lublin on Thursday and charged them with incitement to hatred, after three of them were caught putting up posters at bus stops reading "Zionists Leave Lublin"


"Leave" for Israel, presumably.

These guys are anti-semitic Zionists.
 
2014-01-26 10:33:05 PM  
Mein Kopier.
 
2014-01-26 10:42:49 PM  
Semi-related CS,B time:

Random dude one day walks into my place of employment to the front desk and asks to use the copier. The receptionist agrees and hands me the info since I was standing buy it. Total crazy anti-Zionist propaganda. I casually handed it back to the guy and stated in a disapproving tone that the printer was broken. Surreal experience.
 
2014-01-26 10:45:27 PM  
How could they Nazi that coming?
 
2014-01-26 10:47:55 PM  
Holocaust overload?
 
2014-01-26 10:48:07 PM  
"He had allegedly worked there for over two decades and printed some of the anti-Semitic posters on office equipment."

They must keep pretty bad employment records there.
 
2014-01-26 10:50:15 PM  

Fano: nickdaisy: Obviously this guy is an idiot, but it seems to me that all of those European laws that make it illegal to read Mein Kampf or throw one of those moronic Nazi salutes are a bad idea.

Seems to me the lesson from the fascist era is that we shouldn't vest government with absolute authority to tell us what to think and do-- even if that means a few fools will do foolish things.

I'm glad people in America aren't rushing out to buy Mein Kampf, but I'm proud we can buy and read whatever we choose to, without the government's approval. That individual freedom is the surest guard against tyranny-- not a law passed by some politician who is for sale to the highest bidder.

Who's with me?

"All the Dachaus must remain standing. The Dachaus the Belsens, the Buchenwalds, the Auschwitzes- all of them. They must remain standing because they are a monument to a moment in time when some men decided to turn the Earth into a graveyard. Into it they shoveled all of the their reason, their logic, their knowledge, but worst of all, their conscience. And the moment we forget this, the moment we cease to be haunted by this remembrance, then we become gravediggers. Something to dwell on and remember, not only on Fark but wherever men walk God's Earth."


I really like that episode of The Twilight Zone.
/The Obsolete Man is still the best one though.
 
2014-01-26 10:50:38 PM  

Fano: nickdaisy: Obviously this guy is an idiot, but it seems to me that all of those European laws that make it illegal to read Mein Kampf or throw one of those moronic Nazi salutes are a bad idea.

Seems to me the lesson from the fascist era is that we shouldn't vest government with absolute authority to tell us what to think and do-- even if that means a few fools will do foolish things.

I'm glad people in America aren't rushing out to buy Mein Kampf, but I'm proud we can buy and read whatever we choose to, without the government's approval. That individual freedom is the surest guard against tyranny-- not a law passed by some politician who is for sale to the highest bidder.

Who's with me?

"All the Dachaus must remain standing. The Dachaus the Belsens, the Buchenwalds, the Auschwitzes- all of them. They must remain standing because they are a monument to a moment in time when some men decided to turn the Earth into a graveyard. Into it they shoveled all of the their reason, their logic, their knowledge, but worst of all, their conscience. And the moment we forget this, the moment we cease to be haunted by this remembrance, then we become gravediggers. Something to dwell on and remember, not only on Fark but wherever men walk God's Earth."


Pull my finger..  heh heh.
 
2014-01-26 10:53:26 PM  
i1207.photobucket.com
 
2014-01-26 11:06:42 PM  

stonelotus: [i1207.photobucket.com image 650x365]


Now she's ready for her Spielberg closeup

img.fark.net
 
2014-01-26 11:19:37 PM  
Except that Americans don't read books.

"You don't have to burn books to destroy a culture. Just get people to stop reading them."
― Ray Bradbury
 
2014-01-26 11:20:38 PM  

nickdaisy: Obviously this guy is an idiot, but it seems to me that all of those European laws that make it illegal to read Mein Kampf or throw one of those moronic Nazi salutes are a bad idea.

Seems to me the lesson from the fascist era is that we shouldn't vest government with absolute authority to tell us what to think and do-- even if that means a few fools will do foolish things.

I'm glad people in America aren't rushing out to buy Mein Kampf, but I'm proud we can buy and read whatever we choose to, without the government's approval. That individual freedom is the surest guard against tyranny-- not a law passed by some politician who is for sale to the highest bidder.

Who's with me?


Buy it? That's un-American. Download it.
 
2014-01-26 11:22:19 PM  

Prey4reign: From a commenter to the article named "Brutus" -- "make these filth PROVE with a LIST of names and dates of the ludicrous 6 million gassed claims or SHUT THESE MONUMENTS TO JEWISH HISTORICAL MANIPULATION DOWN..............ENOUGH"

The Nazis may have been great records keepers, but I doubt they were this good.


Not to mention the death toll is now considered to be past 11 million and we do have the names of a few million of them.
 
2014-01-26 11:22:29 PM  

Peter von Nostrand: You know who else distributed...

Oh forget it


Henry Ford?
 
2014-01-26 11:24:16 PM  
What the hell, submitter -- was the SICK tag taken ill this evening?
 
2014-01-26 11:24:42 PM  

anuran: Except that Americans don't read books.

"You don't have to burn books to destroy a culture. Just get people to stop reading them."
― Ray Bradbury


But it's a pleasure to burn...
 
2014-01-26 11:24:54 PM  
A Polish Nazi is Stockholm Syndrome, no? I think I need a Rough Guide for this.
 
2014-01-26 11:25:24 PM  

Prey4reign: From a commenter to the article named "Brutus" -- "make these filth PROVE with a LIST of names and dates of the ludicrous 6 million gassed claims or SHUT THESE MONUMENTS TO JEWISH HISTORICAL MANIPULATION DOWN..............ENOUGH"

The Nazis may have been great records keepers, but I doubt they were this good.


This series consists of copies of records which were created by the German Geheime Staatspolizei (Gestapo) during World War II, captured by the U.S. military, and compiled and used after the war by the International Tracing Service and later the Departmental Records Branch's Captured Records Section. They include copies of German records: camp records, transport lists, and medical data cards. The camp records include inmate cards, death lists, and strength reports....

and that's just one result form a quick google search. now we agree the commenter is a POS and we aren't going to do his work for him but the records are out there for those that choose to see them.
 
2014-01-26 11:27:12 PM  
It's okay everybody: He said "Zionists" not "Jews". TOTALLY different!
 
2014-01-26 11:28:53 PM  

Peter von Nostrand: You know who else distributed...

Oh forget it


1.bp.blogspot.com

The gays and gypsies and stuff, yeah, fark 'em.
 
2014-01-26 11:29:22 PM  

hardinparamedic: nickdaisy: American Exceptionalism.

Yeah. Here's the thing. The Germans and most of Europe are still heavily ashamed of what happened between 1934 and 1945, and what their average citizens were capable of doing to each other. The holocaust denialism laws were enacted to prevent what had happened in the past with genocides and atrocities - namely them being denied, minimized, and even attempts at justification. They were also enacted during the 1980s due to a rise in ultra-nationalism and the skinhead movement in West Germany, and were kept on the books after unification because of the predominant East German communist attitude of "You're not responsible for the atrocities of World War II, you were good germans for following orders"

Also, it is NOT illegal to read or study Mein Kampf. Where the Germans, and many other European countries get testy is when you start publicly espousing what swell guy Hitler was, and how his ideas were pretty great after all.


That's the theory, yes, in the same sense that in theory Jim Crow laws were all about making sure that people that only literate people with real knowledge of the issues can vote and that current voter ID law is just to prevent voter fraud.

In practice the application of the laws has historically been very different from the stated intent, is what I'm getting at here.

// This isn't uncommon in the US or Europe, for a law ostensibly justified for some popular/reasonable reason to actually be a lever for something nasty and anti-democratic, usually censorship or disenfranchisement.  Hell, just look at any law promoted with a straight-faced "think of the children".
 
2014-01-26 11:33:47 PM  

Peter von Nostrand: You know who else distributed...

Oh forget it


Sad this comment wasn't the Boobies.

/intentional filter invocation.
 
2014-01-26 11:34:36 PM  
I worked with this guy a few years who said, and I quote, 'If the holocaust did happen, why are there still Jews?'

First time I was left speechless by someone's stupidity
 
2014-01-26 11:35:54 PM  

GungFu: Peter von Nostrand: You know who else distributed...

Oh forget it

[1.bp.blogspot.com image 448x299]

The gays and gypsies and stuff, yeah, fark 'em.


This is a model of the Holocaust memorial set to be erected on the Ohio Statehouse lawn this spring

ad009cdnb.archdaily.net
 
2014-01-26 11:36:48 PM  

InterruptingQuirk: GungFu: Peter von Nostrand: You know who else distributed...

Oh forget it

[1.bp.blogspot.com image 448x299]

The gays and gypsies and stuff, yeah, fark 'em.

This is a model of the Holocaust memorial set to be erected on the Ohio Statehouse lawn this spring

[ad009cdnb.archdaily.net image 528x393]


Better view

i1.ytimg.com
 
2014-01-26 11:37:04 PM  

MaudlinMutantMollusk: Those arrested reportedly responded to the charges, stating "I know NOTHING"


i.imgur.com
/unavailable for comment
//but still knows nothing
 
2014-01-26 11:48:06 PM  

InterruptingQuirk: InterruptingQuirk: GungFu: Peter von Nostrand: You know who else distributed...

Oh forget it

[1.bp.blogspot.com image 448x299]

The gays and gypsies and stuff, yeah, fark 'em.

This is a model of the Holocaust memorial set to be erected on the Ohio Statehouse lawn this spring

[ad009cdnb.archdaily.net image 528x393]

Better view

[i1.ytimg.com image 850x478]


Will the ACLU be protesting that?  Seems awfully full of religious iconography for statehouse grounds.
 
2014-01-26 11:50:07 PM  

InterruptingQuirk: stonelotus: [i1207.photobucket.com image 650x365]

Now she's ready for her Spielberg closeup

[img.fark.net image 650x365]


Nice color correction
 
2014-01-26 11:52:49 PM  

Mugato: InterruptingQuirk: stonelotus: [i1207.photobucket.com image 650x365]

Now she's ready for her Spielberg closeup

[img.fark.net image 650x365]

Nice color correction


Just select and Colorize. Very quick and easy. But thanx anyways.
 
2014-01-26 11:54:12 PM  

InterruptingQuirk: Mugato: InterruptingQuirk: stonelotus: [i1207.photobucket.com image 650x365]

Now she's ready for her Spielberg closeup

[img.fark.net image 650x365]

Nice color correction

Just select and Colorize. Very quick and easy. But thanx anyways.


Eh, I've seen enough people fark it up.
 
2014-01-27 12:00:41 AM  

Jim_Callahan: In practice the application of the laws has historically been very different from the stated intent, is what I'm getting at here.


Except that the only thing outlawed by Germany is the promotion and glorification of Nazi Ideals and Symbols, and the public denial by authority figures of one of the most well documented and historically investigated atrocities in the history of mankind.

No one is preventing anyone from leaning about Hitler, his philosophies, or his writing.
No one is preventing someone from learning about the Nazis.

What they are, as a society, doing is to prevent his ideals from being glorified in a mass and public way.

Contrary to what is being inferred in this thread, Germany is not having mass bonfires of Mein Kampf. They are not rounding up people for reading it and throwing them in jail.
 
2014-01-27 12:00:47 AM  

Mr. Eugenides: InterruptingQuirk: InterruptingQuirk: GungFu: Peter von Nostrand: You know who else distributed...

Oh forget it

[1.bp.blogspot.com image 448x299]

The gays and gypsies and stuff, yeah, fark 'em.

This is a model of the Holocaust memorial set to be erected on the Ohio Statehouse lawn this spring

[ad009cdnb.archdaily.net image 528x393]

Better view

[i1.ytimg.com image 850x478]

Will the ACLU be protesting that?  Seems awfully full of religious iconography for statehouse grounds.


Can't imagine why they would. I assume that was snark, but just in case it wasn't, it may surprise you to know that most ACLU members can actually tell the difference between a historical marker and a present-day endorsement (establishment) of religion.
 
2014-01-27 12:05:16 AM  

anuran: Except that Americans don't read books.

"You don't have to burn books to destroy a culture. Just get people to stop reading them."
― Ray Bradbury


You shouldn't take his advice seriously, he was a fox news viewer.
 
2014-01-27 12:08:56 AM  

Mithiwithi: Can't imagine why they would. I assume that was snark, but just in case it wasn't, it may surprise you to know that most ACLU members can actually tell the difference between a historical marker and a present-day endorsement (establishment) of religion.


Like the Mt. Soledad Veterans Memorial Cross?
 
2014-01-27 12:11:22 AM  

legion_of_doo: Like the Mt. Soledad Veterans Memorial Cross?


It's not a "Veterans Memorial Cross".

Actually know what you're talking about, oh brave social justice warrior.
 
2014-01-27 12:12:11 AM  
FTA: charged them with incitement to hatred

Hence why there is no Fox New in Poland
 
2014-01-27 12:28:07 AM  
Fano:

"All the Dachaus must remain standing. The Dachaus the Belsens, the Buchenwalds, the Auschwitzes- all of them. They must remain standing because they are a monument to a moment in time when some men decided to turn the Earth into a graveyard. Into it they shoveled all of the their reason, their logic, their knowledge, but worst of all, their conscience. And the moment we forget this, the moment we cease to be haunted by this remembrance, then we become gravediggers. Something to dwell on and remember, not only on Fark but wherever men walk God's Earth."

This.
Bears Repeating


Mr. Eugenides:
This is a model of the Holocaust memorial set to be erected on the Ohio Statehouse lawn this spring

[ad009cdnb.archdaily.net image 528x393]

Will the ACLU be protesting that?  Seems awfully full of religious iconography for statehouse grounds.


Best you not worry your silly little head over that.
It is something you might not comprehend; but
Most everyone else does.
 
2014-01-27 12:39:37 AM  

hardinparamedic: Jim_Callahan: In practice the application of the laws has historically been very different from the stated intent, is what I'm getting at here.

Except that the only thing outlawed by Germany is the promotion and glorification of Nazi Ideals and Symbols, and the public denial by authority figures of one of the most well documented and historically investigated atrocities in the history of mankind.

No one is preventing anyone from leaning about Hitler, his philosophies, or his writing.
No one is preventing someone from learning about the Nazis.

What they are, as a society, doing is to prevent his ideals from being glorified in a mass and public way.

Contrary to what is being inferred in this thread, Germany is not having mass bonfires of Mein Kampf. They are not rounding up people for reading it and throwing them in jail.


Thank you for saying that in a more polite manner than I would have.

/girlfriend is from Germany
 
2014-01-27 12:47:42 AM  

hardinparamedic: nickdaisy: American Exceptionalism.

Yeah. Here's the thing. The Germans and most of Europe are still heavily ashamed of what happened between 1934 and 1945, and what their average citizens were capable of doing to each other. The holocaust denialism laws were enacted to prevent what had happened in the past with genocides and atrocities - namely them being denied, minimized, and even attempts at justification. They were also enacted during the 1980s due to a rise in ultra-nationalism and the skinhead movement in West Germany, and were kept on the books after unification because of the predominant East German communist attitude of "You're not responsible for the atrocities of World War II, you were good germans for following orders"

Also, it is NOT illegal to read or study Mein Kampf. Where the Germans, and many other European countries get testy is when you start publicly espousing what swell guy Hitler was, and how his ideas were pretty great after all.


If only the Japanese would do the same thing.
 
2014-01-27 01:09:22 AM  

Prey4reign: From a commenter to the article named "Brutus" -- "make these filth PROVE with a LIST of names and dates of the ludicrous 6 million gassed claims or SHUT THESE MONUMENTS TO JEWISH HISTORICAL MANIPULATION DOWN..............ENOUGH"

The Nazis may have been great records keepers, but I doubt they were this good.


Just get in touch with IBM. They provided machines, punchcards and software for the Nazis. That little number every concentration camp prisoner had tattooed on their arm? Yeah...

A French resistance member might have been one of the first computer hackers. He farked up the stacks of punchcards that the Nazis were using to deport people from France to death camps.
 
2014-01-27 01:10:00 AM  

hardinparamedic: legion_of_doo: Like the Mt. Soledad Veterans Memorial Cross?

It's not a "Veterans Memorial Cross".

Actually know what you're talking about, oh O brave social justice warrior.


Vocative O

/Sorry, pet peeve
 
2014-01-27 01:24:39 AM  

The Dogs of War: I worked with this guy a few years who said, and I quote, 'If the holocaust did happen, why are there still Jews?'

First time I was left speechless by someone's stupidity


wow.  i mean wow.
 
2014-01-27 01:29:28 AM  

Likwit: Germans and most of Europe are still heavily ashamed


You are an idiot.
 
2014-01-27 01:52:37 AM  

cman: Freedom to speak ones mind must be absolute in order for us to be morally right.


I though I'd heard the single most dumbassed thing I was going to hear today was an economics comment.

I was, unfortunately, wrong.
 
2014-01-27 01:54:18 AM  

demaL-demaL-yeH: cman: Freedom to speak ones mind must be absolute in order for us to be morally right.

I though I'd

read the single most dumbassed thing I was going to read today - it was an economics comment.

I was, unfortunately, wrong.


Oy.
FTFM
 
2014-01-27 02:06:09 AM  

TheShavingofOccam123: Prey4reign: From a commenter to the article named "Brutus" -- "make these filth PROVE with a LIST of names and dates of the ludicrous 6 million gassed claims or SHUT THESE MONUMENTS TO JEWISH HISTORICAL MANIPULATION DOWN..............ENOUGH"

The Nazis may have been great records keepers, but I doubt they were this good.

Just get in touch with IBM. They provided machines, punchcards and software for the Nazis. That little number every concentration camp prisoner had tattooed on their arm? Yeah...

A French resistance member might have been one of the first computer hackers. He farked up the stacks of punchcards that the Nazis were using to deport people from France to death camps.


Was he wearing a belt onion when he did it?
 
2014-01-27 02:35:09 AM  
They identified one of the men as 50-year-old Krzysztof K. -- omitting his last name because of privacy laws

Because no one's going to be able to figure out which 50-year-old museum graphic artist who's first name is Krzysztof and last name starts with K is the right one.
 
2014-01-27 02:39:30 AM  

HortusMatris: They identified one of the men as 50-year-old Krzysztof K. -- omitting his last name because of privacy laws

Because no one's going to be able to figure out which 50-year-old museum graphic artist who's first name is Krzysztof and last name starts with K is the right one.


Well, they would have just used his initials, but since his middle name is Kevin...
 
2014-01-27 02:41:35 AM  

nickdaisy: 'm glad people in America aren't rushing out to buy Mein Kampf, but I'm proud we can buy and read whatever we choose to, without the government's approval. That individual freedom is the surest guard against tyranny-- not a law passed by some politician who is for sale to the highest bidder.


That's absurdly absolutist. Every functional society will place some limits on speech or printing if the harm to society is deemed to justify the limitation. Slander, libel, child pornography, revealing state or military secrets, threats of violence, instructions for assembling weapons of mass destruction, that sort of thing.

I will accept that political speech is in a different category. However, it's a damn sight easier to say that it isn't harmful when you're not staring into a Nazi gas chamber and need to ensure that that is never allowed to happen again.
 
2014-01-27 02:42:59 AM  

Brainsick: HortusMatris: They identified one of the men as 50-year-old Krzysztof K. -- omitting his last name because of privacy laws

Because no one's going to be able to figure out which 50-year-old museum graphic artist who's first name is Krzysztof and last name starts with K is the right one.

Well, they would have just used his initials, but since his middle name is Kevin...


[slowclap.gif]
 
2014-01-27 02:48:42 AM  

Oldiron_79: anuran: Except that Americans don't read books.

"You don't have to burn books to destroy a culture. Just get people to stop reading them."
― Ray Bradbury

You shouldn't take his advice seriously, he was a fox news viewer.


Ad Hominem with a touch of Genetic Fallacy. Yes, in his later years he was a teabagger. His point here is absolutely valid.
 
2014-01-27 02:56:35 AM  

Jim_Callahan: hardinparamedic: nickdaisy: American Exceptionalism.

Yeah. Here's the thing. The Germans and most of Europe are still heavily ashamed of what happened between 1934 and 1945, and what their average citizens were capable of doing to each other. The holocaust denialism laws were enacted to prevent what had happened in the past with genocides and atrocities - namely them being denied, minimized, and even attempts at justification. They were also enacted during the 1980s due to a rise in ultra-nationalism and the skinhead movement in West Germany, and were kept on the books after unification because of the predominant East German communist attitude of "You're not responsible for the atrocities of World War II, you were good germans for following orders"

Also, it is NOT illegal to read or study Mein Kampf. Where the Germans, and many other European countries get testy is when you start publicly espousing what swell guy Hitler was, and how his ideas were pretty great after all.

That's the theory, yes, in the same sense that in theory Jim Crow laws were all about making sure that people that only literate people with real knowledge of the issues can vote and that current voter ID law is just to prevent voter fraud.

In practice the application of the laws has historically been very different from the stated intent, is what I'm getting at here.

// This isn't uncommon in the US or Europe, for a law ostensibly justified for some popular/reasonable reason to actually be a lever for something nasty and anti-democratic, usually censorship or disenfranchisement.  Hell, just look at any law promoted with a straight-faced "think of the children".


Gun control is about protecting children.
 
2014-01-27 03:07:23 AM  

tomerson: Likwit: Germans and most of Europe are still heavily ashamed

You are an idiot.


So... I want the Japanese to be ashamed of what happened during the war too, and that makes me an idiot. I'm sorry, but you're going to have to explain that retarded position.
 
2014-01-27 03:21:03 AM  

tomerson: Likwit: Germans and most of Europe are still heavily ashamed

You are an idiot.


Likwit is right. You are the idiot.

/European
 
2014-01-27 04:23:29 AM  

hardinparamedic: legion_of_doo: Like the Mt. Soledad Veterans Memorial Cross?

It's not a "Veterans Memorial Cross".

Actually know what you're talking about, oh brave social justice warrior.


Indeed, thanks to legion_of_doo for giving us an excellent example of what I was talking about - in this case, a clear religious monument with a fig-leaf attempt to claim a secular purpose.
 
2014-01-27 04:51:44 AM  

nickdaisy: I'm glad people in America aren't rushing out to buy Mein Kampf, but I'm proud we can buy and read whatever we choose to, without the government's approval. That individual freedom is the surest guard against tyranny-- not a law passed by some politician who is for sale to the highest bidder.


On the other hand, you let your government kill its citizens. No death penalty anywhere in Europe.

Now, what do you think was the biggest problem with fascism? The "banning books" bit or the "killing people" bit?
 
2014-01-27 05:42:36 AM  

martid4: optikeye: nickdaisy: I'm glad people in America aren't rushing out to buy Mein Kampf, but I'm proud we can buy and read whatever we choose to, without the government's approval.

Why burn books when no one reads them?

I keep a copy of the Koran in the bathroom.


is it 2ply?
 
2014-01-27 05:43:53 AM  

anuran: Except that Americans don't read books.


Horseshiat.  Hours reading/week is largely uniform across the industrialized world.  A quick google search would have shown that, but hey, I understand. Prejudice is hard to give up.
 
2014-01-27 05:47:46 AM  

Fano: nickdaisy: Obviously this guy is an idiot, but it seems to me that all of those European laws that make it illegal to read Mein Kampf or throw one of those moronic Nazi salutes are a bad idea.

Seems to me the lesson from the fascist era is that we shouldn't vest government with absolute authority to tell us what to think and do-- even if that means a few fools will do foolish things.

I'm glad people in America aren't rushing out to buy Mein Kampf, but I'm proud we can buy and read whatever we choose to, without the government's approval. That individual freedom is the surest guard against tyranny-- not a law passed by some politician who is for sale to the highest bidder.

Who's with me?

"All the Dachaus must remain standing. The Dachaus the Belsens, the Buchenwalds, the Auschwitzes- all of them. They must remain standing because they are a monument to a moment in time when some men decided to turn the Earth into a graveyard. Into it they shoveled all of the their reason, their logic, their knowledge, but worst of all, their conscience. And the moment we forget this, the moment we cease to be haunted by this remembrance, then we become gravediggers. Something to dwell on and remember, not only on Fark but wherever men walk God's Earth."


Set that to a catchy jingle and you could sell  toilet paper.
 
2014-01-27 05:50:36 AM  

Peter von Nostrand: You know who else distributed...

Oh forget it


Jack Chick
 
2014-01-27 06:04:28 AM  

Prey4reign: From a commenter to the article named "Brutus" -- "make these filth PROVE with a LIST of names and dates of the ludicrous 6 million gassed claims or SHUT THESE MONUMENTS TO JEWISH HISTORICAL MANIPULATION DOWN..............ENOUGH"

The Nazis may have been great records keepers, but I doubt they were this good.


And I think a lot of records were destroyed by Allied forces, partisans etc when they attacked Nazi facilities.  But yeah those Nazis were an organized bunch of monsters, that's for sure.  Murdering your enemies is quite human, alas.  Tattoing them with a number so you can keep track of when and how you did it is... something else.
 
2014-01-27 06:09:08 AM  

tomerson: The Dogs of War: I worked with this guy a few years who said, and I quote, 'If the holocaust did happen, why are there still Jews?'

First time I was left speechless by someone's stupidity

wow.  i mean wow.


See, that's why we give nazis the right to free speech. They just use it to prove how stupid they are. (Of course, that may not have happened in the USA, but regardless).
/If I remember my History, Poles weren't exactly high on hitler's racial superiority list...
 
2014-01-27 06:11:17 AM  
One of the Big Lies, and this phrase whilst perhaps coined by Hitler definitely did not die with him any more than the technique it described, of German and European history in general, was that the Nazi anti-semtic ideology and the lengths which it was ready to go to was somehow an aberration, a freak of the times. In fact, their program would have never succeeded if it was.
There were in fact huge numbers of people in Germany, in France, Poland, and other occupied territories who thought that, in relation to the Jews, the Nazis had exactly the right idea. Pogroms, expulsions, systematic terror against the Jewish communities wherever they existed had been a fact of life in many parts of Europe where German was only spoken as a second language if it was spoken at all.
Almost everywhere that jackboots struck sparks off the cobblestones, it was merely necessary to announce Nazi policies against the Jewish population to ensure a great number of collaborators would show up. Of course, once the tide of the war turned, and the Nazis suffered defeat, there was a common tendency to hush up about all this.
 
2014-01-27 06:13:27 AM  
hardinparamedic:

Also, it is NOT illegal to read or study Mein Kampf. Where the Germans, and many other European countries get testy is when you start publicly espousing what swell guy Hitler was, and how his ideas were pretty great after all.

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mein_Kampf#Aktuelle_Rechtslage


not ilegal, but "mein Kampf" is property of the state of Bavaria til 2016, and they won't authorize print, so just the same as censored.
Puting it out would be a good thing IMO, because, if after reading it, you still pretend the nazis didn' kill that many "Untermenschen", you also have to aknowledge they totaly failed theyr objectives!

A funny thing about Germany is all the trivial things deemed "against the constitution", like children's songs from the former GDR (without any polical text) or the melody of the "Horst Wessell Lied" -wich was composed on an older melody- and got "Wolfenstein 3D" banned.
 
2014-01-27 06:53:55 AM  

nickdaisy: Obviously this guy is an idiot, but it seems to me that all of those European laws that make it illegal to read Mein Kampf or throw one of those moronic Nazi salutes are a bad idea.

Seems to me the lesson from the fascist era is that we shouldn't vest government with absolute authority to tell us what to think and do-- even if that means a few fools will do foolish things.

I'm glad people in America aren't rushing out to buy Mein Kampf, but I'm proud we can buy and read whatever we choose to, without the government's approval. That individual freedom is the surest guard against tyranny-- not a law passed by some politician who is for sale to the highest bidder.

Who's with me?



Maybe you could form an intellegent opinion on the matter if you had the vaguest notion of what you were actually talking about.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mein_Kampf#Poland

cman: . I can understand their intentions, but as a civilized nation, the government should be there to protect the rights of its citizens.


Not letting people lie about the holocaust does protect the rights of citizens.
 
2014-01-27 07:20:26 AM  
cman
nickdaisy: Obviously this guy is an idiot, but it seems to me that all of those European laws that make it illegal to read Mein Kampf or throw one of those moronic Nazi salutes are a bad idea.
Seems to me the lesson from the fascist era is that we shouldn't vest government with absolute authority to tell us what to think and do-- even if that means a few fools will do foolish things.
I'm glad people in America aren't rushing out to buy Mein Kampf, but I'm proud we can buy and read whatever we choose to, without the government's approval. That individual freedom is the surest guard against tyranny-- not a law passed by some politician who is for sale to the highest bidder.
Who's with me?

Me
The Holocaust was one of the most darkest periods in European history. I can understand their intentions, but as a civilized nation, the government should be there to protect the rights of its citizens.
One of the most near and dear rights we have is freedom of speech in the United States. This has brought us the American Revolution and the KKK. Freedom to speak ones mind must be absolute in order for us to be morally right.


The ironic thing here is that it could be argued that Americans are partly responsible for creating those freedom of speech limitings laws in Europe or at least in Germany.
 
2014-01-27 08:12:01 AM  

Richard C Stanford: tomerson: The Dogs of War: I worked with this guy a few years who said, and I quote, 'If the holocaust did happen, why are there still Jews?'

First time I was left speechless by someone's stupidity

wow.  i mean wow.

See, that's why we give nazis the right to free speech. They just use it to prove how stupid they are. (Of course, that may not have happened in the USA, but regardless).
/If I remember my History, Poles weren't exactly high on hitler's racial superiority list...


They were taking their jerbs.
 
2014-01-27 08:32:26 AM  

Mithiwithi: hardinparamedic: legion_of_doo: Like the Mt. Soledad Veterans Memorial Cross?

It's not a "Veterans Memorial Cross".
Actually know what you're talking about, oh brave social justice warrior.

Indeed, thanks to legion_of_doo for giving us an excellent example of what I was talking about - in this case, a clear religious monument with a fig-leaf attempt to claim a secular purpose.


You both are welcome. It's no skin off my nose either way on that cross, though. I just know it always raises a big stink here in California (i.e. welcome to fark.jpg, and so on).
 
2014-01-27 08:55:53 AM  

cynicalbastard: One of the Big Lies, and this phrase whilst perhaps coined by Hitler definitely did not die with him any more than the technique it described, of German and European history in general, was that the Nazi anti-semtic ideology and the lengths which it was ready to go to was somehow an aberration, a freak of the times. In fact, their program would have never succeeded if it was.
There were in fact huge numbers of people in Germany, in France, Poland, and other occupied territories who thought that, in relation to the Jews, the Nazis had exactly the right idea. Pogroms, expulsions, systematic terror against the Jewish communities wherever they existed had been a fact of life in many parts of Europe where German was only spoken as a second language if it was spoken at all.
Almost everywhere that jackboots struck sparks off the cobblestones, it was merely necessary to announce Nazi policies against the Jewish population to ensure a great number of collaborators would show up. Of course, once the tide of the war turned, and the Nazis suffered defeat, there was a common tendency to hush up about all this.


This is the repugnant truth about the Holocaust. Western Civilization holds its nose and says, "how did you crazy people ever do THAT?" When THAT is exactly what anti-semitic thought that ran through Western Culture for 1500 years said. All the Nazis did was add a mechanized industrial twist. Everyone was complicit.
 
2014-01-27 10:51:24 AM  

hardinparamedic: Jim_Callahan: In practice the application of the laws has historically been very different from the stated intent, is what I'm getting at here.

Except that the only thing outlawed by Germany is the promotion and glorification of Nazi Ideals and Symbols, and the public denial by authority figures of one of the most well documented and historically investigated atrocities in the history of mankind.

No one is preventing anyone from leaning about Hitler, his philosophies, or his writing.
No one is preventing someone from learning about the Nazis.

What they are, as a society, doing is to prevent his ideals from being glorified in a mass and public way.

Contrary to what is being inferred in this thread, Germany is not having mass bonfires of Mein Kampf. They are not rounding up people for reading it and throwing them in jail.


just stop building straw men already.

Mass jailings and book burnings?  No.  But there have been  ridiculous arrests and jailings over extremely loose intepretations of anti-Nazi symbolism, anti-semitism, and Holocaust™ denial laws,  Holocaust™ denial laws, in their own right, are farking stupid.  you're going to legislate history?
 
2014-01-27 11:02:57 AM  
After re-reading the article when I wasn't dead tired, I realized this was in Lublin. I visited Lubin and the Majdanek death camp in the summer of 2012. It was a very surreal place. The camp was literally next to the town; I could see downtown from the center of camp. There are two monuments dedicated to those who died there. I also visited the crematorium. Very unsettling places.
 
2014-01-27 11:10:03 AM  

stonelotus: hardinparamedic: Jim_Callahan: In practice the application of the laws has historically been very different from the stated intent, is what I'm getting at here.

Except that the only thing outlawed by Germany is the promotion and glorification of Nazi Ideals and Symbols, and the public denial by authority figures of one of the most well documented and historically investigated atrocities in the history of mankind.

No one is preventing anyone from leaning about Hitler, his philosophies, or his writing.
No one is preventing someone from learning about the Nazis.

What they are, as a society, doing is to prevent his ideals from being glorified in a mass and public way.

Contrary to what is being inferred in this thread, Germany is not having mass bonfires of Mein Kampf. They are not rounding up people for reading it and throwing them in jail.

just stop building straw men already.

Mass jailings and book burnings?  No.  But there have been  ridiculous arrests and jailings over extremely loose intepretations of anti-Nazi symbolism, anti-semitism, and Holocaust™ denial laws,  Holocaust™ denial laws, in their own right, are farking stupid.  you're going to legislate history?


You'll have to forgive me for taking the word of my German friends over one story from the Daily Fail.
 
2014-01-27 11:29:34 AM  

grumpfuff: stonelotus: hardinparamedic: Jim_Callahan: In practice the application of the laws has historically been very different from the stated intent, is what I'm getting at here.

Except that the only thing outlawed by Germany is the promotion and glorification of Nazi Ideals and Symbols, and the public denial by authority figures of one of the most well documented and historically investigated atrocities in the history of mankind.

No one is preventing anyone from leaning about Hitler, his philosophies, or his writing.
No one is preventing someone from learning about the Nazis.

What they are, as a society, doing is to prevent his ideals from being glorified in a mass and public way.

Contrary to what is being inferred in this thread, Germany is not having mass bonfires of Mein Kampf. They are not rounding up people for reading it and throwing them in jail.

just stop building straw men already.

Mass jailings and book burnings?  No.  But there have been  ridiculous arrests and jailings over extremely loose intepretations of anti-Nazi symbolism, anti-semitism, and Holocaust™ denial laws,  Holocaust™ denial laws, in their own right, are farking stupid.  you're going to legislate history?

You'll have to forgive me for taking the word of my German friends over one story from the Daily Fail.


you're forgiven.  now can you please try to be a little more vague?  one can almost ascertain what word, exactly, you have received from your German friends.
 
2014-01-27 11:41:22 AM  

stonelotus: grumpfuff: stonelotus: hardinparamedic: Jim_Callahan: In practice the application of the laws has historically been very different from the stated intent, is what I'm getting at here.

Except that the only thing outlawed by Germany is the promotion and glorification of Nazi Ideals and Symbols, and the public denial by authority figures of one of the most well documented and historically investigated atrocities in the history of mankind.

No one is preventing anyone from leaning about Hitler, his philosophies, or his writing.
No one is preventing someone from learning about the Nazis.

What they are, as a society, doing is to prevent his ideals from being glorified in a mass and public way.

Contrary to what is being inferred in this thread, Germany is not having mass bonfires of Mein Kampf. They are not rounding up people for reading it and throwing them in jail.

just stop building straw men already.

Mass jailings and book burnings?  No.  But there have been  ridiculous arrests and jailings over extremely loose intepretations of anti-Nazi symbolism, anti-semitism, and Holocaust™ denial laws,  Holocaust™ denial laws, in their own right, are farking stupid.  you're going to legislate history?

You'll have to forgive me for taking the word of my German friends over one story from the Daily Fail.

you're forgiven.  now can you please try to be a little more vague?  one can almost ascertain what word, exactly, you have received from your German friends.


1) The laws against holocaust denial, etc, are rarely, if ever invoked.
2) When they are invoked, 99% of the time they are done so properly.
3) The vast majority of Germans think the laws are a good idea.
4) They are not as strict as most people seem to think. There is no law preventing reading or talking about Nazis, etc. It is only when you cast them in a positive light that the law takes effect.
5) One example from the Daily Fail does not equate to   "ridiculous arrests and jailings over extremely loose intepretations of anti-Nazi symbolism, anti-semitism, and Holocaust™ denial laws "
6) As to this bit:

Holocaust™ denial laws, in their own right, are farking stupid.  you're going to legislate history?

That and your TM next to Holocaust make you sound like a denier. It's not legislating history. It's making denying what actually happened illegal.
 
2014-01-27 11:55:15 AM  

grumpfuff: It's making denying what actually happened illegal.


There are lots of things that people believe that didn't happen and vice versa. Are you advocating that we mandate a consensus of truth and then regulate conformity to that official narrative?
 
2014-01-27 12:01:00 PM  

InterruptingQuirk: grumpfuff: It's making denying what actually happened illegal.

There are lots of things that people believe that didn't happen and vice versa. Are you advocating that we mandate a consensus of truth and then regulate conformity to that official narrative?


The Holocaust happening is not a matter of belief.
 
2014-01-27 12:03:36 PM  

grumpfuff: stonelotus: grumpfuff: stonelotus: hardinparamedic: Jim_Callahan: In practice the application of the laws has historically been very different from the stated intent, is what I'm getting at here.

Except that the only thing outlawed by Germany is the promotion and glorification of Nazi Ideals and Symbols, and the public denial by authority figures of one of the most well documented and historically investigated atrocities in the history of mankind.

No one is preventing anyone from leaning about Hitler, his philosophies, or his writing.
No one is preventing someone from learning about the Nazis.

What they are, as a society, doing is to prevent his ideals from being glorified in a mass and public way.

Contrary to what is being inferred in this thread, Germany is not having mass bonfires of Mein Kampf. They are not rounding up people for reading it and throwing them in jail.

just stop building straw men already.

Mass jailings and book burnings?  No.  But there have been  ridiculous arrests and jailings over extremely loose intepretations of anti-Nazi symbolism, anti-semitism, and Holocaust™ denial laws,  Holocaust™ denial laws, in their own right, are farking stupid.  you're going to legislate history?

You'll have to forgive me for taking the word of my German friends over one story from the Daily Fail.

you're forgiven.  now can you please try to be a little more vague?  one can almost ascertain what word, exactly, you have received from your German friends.

1) The laws against holocaust denial, etc, are rarely, if ever invoked.
2) When they are invoked, 99% of the time they are done so properly.
3) The vast majority of Germans think the laws are a good idea.
4) They are not as strict as most people seem to think. There is no law preventing reading or talking about Nazis, etc. It is only when you cast them in a positive light that the law takes effect.
5) One example from the Daily Fail does not equate to   "ridiculous arrests and jailings over extremely loose ...


1) bad laws that are rarely invoked are still bad laws and their invocation is a travesty.
2) a 1% failure rate sounds good to you?
3) the vast majority of germans apparently thought it was a good idea to eliminate the jews at one point too.  your point?
4) guy, a man was jailed because he taught his dog to raise its paw.
5) you do know how to google don't you?
6) typical response.  nah sparky, I'm not a holocaust denier.  I'm a holocaust don't-give-a-farker.  regardless, whether I believe it happened or didn't, I'm not the one who turned it into an industry, hence the trademark lest someone try to sue me for infringement.  and yeah, it's still legislating history, no matter how much you don't want it to be.  but hey, maybe you can lobby for some laws to make people care!
 
2014-01-27 12:14:24 PM  

grumpfuff: InterruptingQuirk: grumpfuff: It's making denying what actually happened illegal.

There are lots of things that people believe that didn't happen and vice versa. Are you advocating that we mandate a consensus of truth and then regulate conformity to that official narrative?

The Holocaust happening is not a matter of belief.


To some people it is, stupid though it may be. Is it not people's right anymore to be stupid? I think we will find ourselves banging our heads against the wall trying legislate stupidity away.
 
2014-01-27 12:21:58 PM  

stonelotus: 2) a 1% failure rate sounds good to you?


Considering the only failure I've ever heard of is the Daily Fail story you linked to, I figured I'd be generous and assume 1% failure rate instead of 0.

stonelotus: 3) the vast majority of germans apparently thought it was a good idea to eliminate the jews at one point too.  your point?


Actually, they didn't, but go on with your pre-concieved notions.

stonelotus: 4) guy, a man was jailed because he taught his dog to raise its paw.


Which, again, is from the Daily Fail, which means I have doubts about it actually happening.

stonelotus: 5) you do know how to google don't you?


You make the assertions, you provide the evidence.

stonelotus: 6) typical response.  nah sparky, I'm not a holocaust denier.  I'm a holocaust don't-give-a-farker.  regardless, whether I believe it happened or didn't, I'm not the one who turned it into an industry, hence the trademark lest someone try to sue me for infringement.  and yeah, it's still legislating history, no matter how much you don't want it to be.  but hey, maybe you can lobby for some laws to make people care!


Again, this is not about belief. It is about actual, factual, history. The "turning it into an industry" isn't helping your cause either.

Would you also be against a law that says "Teaching that John Smith was the first president of the USA is illegal"?
 
2014-01-27 12:23:49 PM  

InterruptingQuirk: grumpfuff: InterruptingQuirk: grumpfuff: It's making denying what actually happened illegal.

There are lots of things that people believe that didn't happen and vice versa. Are you advocating that we mandate a consensus of truth and then regulate conformity to that official narrative?

The Holocaust happening is not a matter of belief.

To some people it is, stupid though it may be. Is it not people's right anymore to be stupid? I think we will find ourselves banging our heads against the wall trying legislate stupidity away.


Some people also think it's valid to teach ID in science class.
 
2014-01-27 12:24:45 PM  

InterruptingQuirk: To some people it is, stupid though it may be. Is it not people's right anymore to be stupid? I think we will find ourselves banging our heads against the wall trying legislate stupidity away.


Sure it is. However, in Germany, it is not your right to be public and in the faces of others with that stupidity.

Freedom of Speech is not absolute, even in the United States. There are far more egregious abuses of it you could be going after in Europe, such as the use of liberal slander and libel laws to stifle scientific research and political dissent.
 
2014-01-27 12:36:31 PM  

grumpfuff: InterruptingQuirk: grumpfuff: InterruptingQuirk: grumpfuff: It's making denying what actually happened illegal.

There are lots of things that people believe that didn't happen and vice versa. Are you advocating that we mandate a consensus of truth and then regulate conformity to that official narrative?

The Holocaust happening is not a matter of belief.

To some people it is, stupid though it may be. Is it not people's right anymore to be stupid? I think we will find ourselves banging our heads against the wall trying legislate stupidity away.

Some people also think it's valid to teach ID in science class.


I reiterate.
 
2014-01-27 12:38:21 PM  

hardinparamedic: InterruptingQuirk: To some people it is, stupid though it may be. Is it not people's right anymore to be stupid? I think we will find ourselves banging our heads against the wall trying legislate stupidity away.

Sure it is. However, in Germany, it is not your right to be public and in the faces of others with that stupidity.

Freedom of Speech is not absolute, even in the United States. There are far more egregious abuses of it you could be going after in Europe, such as the use of liberal slander and libel laws to stifle scientific research and political dissent.


Please don't bring up yelling FIRE! in a movie theatre. Of course there are worse abuses, they're always are, but the discussion was about this particular topic. What's it called when someone uses examples of something more offensive to belittle the seriousness of the first example being talked about?
 
2014-01-27 12:43:28 PM  

InterruptingQuirk: Please don't bring up yelling FIRE! in a movie theatre. Of course there are worse abuses, they're always are, but the discussion was about this particular topic. What's it called when someone uses examples of something more offensive to belittle the seriousness of the first example being talked about?


My point, since you seem to have either missed it, or ignored it completely, is that it's perfectly acceptable to the German people as a whole - and much of Europe who suffered at the hands of the Nazis - to outlaw denial and "dissent" about the Holocaust and glorification of Hitler. And I'm not bringing up "Fire". I'm talking about the incitement of violence and hate that is par for the course for the NeoNazi and Skinhead crowds.

While I can understand why you, living in Chicago, Illinois, United States of America might have a little bit of a problem with it, it's truly irrelevant to the greater scheme of things, and I'm sure the German people will survive just fine in a free world without your white knighting of their perceived abuses of freedom of speech.
 
2014-01-27 12:44:16 PM  

InterruptingQuirk: grumpfuff: InterruptingQuirk: grumpfuff: InterruptingQuirk: grumpfuff: It's making denying what actually happened illegal.

There are lots of things that people believe that didn't happen and vice versa. Are you advocating that we mandate a consensus of truth and then regulate conformity to that official narrative?

The Holocaust happening is not a matter of belief.

To some people it is, stupid though it may be. Is it not people's right anymore to be stupid? I think we will find ourselves banging our heads against the wall trying legislate stupidity away.

Some people also think it's valid to teach ID in science class.

I reiterate.


When that stupidity harms others and can hinder progress, no, it is not their right.
 
2014-01-27 12:45:52 PM  

grumpfuff: stonelotus: 2) a 1% failure rate sounds good to you?

Considering the only failure I've ever heard of is the Daily Fail story you linked to, I figured I'd be generous and assume 1% failure rate instead of 0.

stonelotus: 3) the vast majority of germans apparently thought it was a good idea to eliminate the jews at one point too.  your point?

Actually, they didn't, but go on with your pre-concieved notions.

stonelotus: 4) guy, a man was jailed because he taught his dog to raise its paw.

Which, again, is from the Daily Fail, which means I have doubts about it actually happening.

stonelotus: 5) you do know how to google don't you?

You make the assertions, you provide the evidence.

stonelotus: 6) typical response.  nah sparky, I'm not a holocaust denier.  I'm a holocaust don't-give-a-farker.  regardless, whether I believe it happened or didn't, I'm not the one who turned it into an industry, hence the trademark lest someone try to sue me for infringement.  and yeah, it's still legislating history, no matter how much you don't want it to be.  but hey, maybe you can lobby for some laws to make people care!

Again, this is not about belief. It is about actual, factual, history. The "turning it into an industry" isn't helping your cause either.

Would you also be against a law that says "Teaching that John Smith was the first president of the USA is illegal"?


how lazy are you exactly?
 
2014-01-27 12:52:01 PM  

hardinparamedic: InterruptingQuirk: Please don't bring up yelling FIRE! in a movie theatre. Of course there are worse abuses, they're always are, but the discussion was about this particular topic. What's it called when someone uses examples of something more offensive to belittle the seriousness of the first example being talked about?

My point, since you seem to have either missed it, or ignored it completely, is that it's perfectly acceptable to the German people as a whole - and much of Europe who suffered at the hands of the Nazis - to outlaw denial and "dissent" about the Holocaust and glorification of Hitler. And I'm not bringing up "Fire". I'm talking about the incitement of violence and hate that is par for the course for the NeoNazi and Skinhead crowds.

While I can understand why you, living in Chicago, Illinois, United States of America might have a little bit of a problem with it, it's truly irrelevant to the greater scheme of things, and I'm sure the German people will survive just fine in a free world without your white knighting of their perceived abuses of freedom of speech.


Just for the record, mentioning yelling fire in a theatre is a general acknowledgment of the whole inciting violence limitation on free speech. Also, I am not white knighting for the Germans, I am preemptively defending our rights here in the U.S.A. before they get to that level.
 
2014-01-27 12:54:05 PM  

grumpfuff: InterruptingQuirk: grumpfuff: InterruptingQuirk: grumpfuff: InterruptingQuirk: grumpfuff: It's making denying what actually happened illegal.

There are lots of things that people believe that didn't happen and vice versa. Are you advocating that we mandate a consensus of truth and then regulate conformity to that official narrative?

The Holocaust happening is not a matter of belief.

To some people it is, stupid though it may be. Is it not people's right anymore to be stupid? I think we will find ourselves banging our heads against the wall trying legislate stupidity away.

Some people also think it's valid to teach ID in science class.

I reiterate.

When that stupidity harms others and can hinder progress, no, it is not their right.


Just to use you example of teaching ID in science class. How does that harm people? Do not start down on some righteous track on how ID is not science, that is not what this is about. You said it harms people.
 
2014-01-27 12:58:02 PM  
it's not that these laws are realy hard to live under.
It' rather that it make the german governement look like it think of his citizens like morons who would turn into nazis upon seeing a swatiska .
Or whorse, it make them look like fool who think a swatiska has some magical power

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolfenstein_3D#Controversy

Regarding holocaust denials laws, after reading a book by a repented neo-nazy, I can understand how they feel like they are victim of conspiracy.
 
2014-01-27 12:58:17 PM  

Fano: This is the repugnant truth about the Holocaust. Western Civilization holds its nose and says, "how did you crazy people ever do THAT?" When THAT is exactly what anti-semitic thought that ran through Western Culture for 1500 years said. All the Nazis did was add a mechanized industrial twist. Everyone was complicit.


Denmark wasn't.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rescue_of_the_Danish_Jews
 
2014-01-27 12:59:46 PM  

The Dogs of War: After re-reading the article when I wasn't dead tired, I realized this was in Lublin. I visited Lubin and the Majdanek death camp in the summer of 2012. It was a very surreal place. The camp was literally next to the town; I could see downtown from the center of camp. There are two monuments dedicated to those who died there. I also visited the crematorium. Very unsettling places.


Speaking of surreal, step out of the train in dachau, get confronted by a gigantic "wilkommen en dachau" mcdonalds sign on the wall of the station.

/the camp itself is underwhelming, empty rooms and walls of text.
 
2014-01-27 01:10:03 PM  

stonelotus: grumpfuff: stonelotus: 2) a 1% failure rate sounds good to you?

Considering the only failure I've ever heard of is the Daily Fail story you linked to, I figured I'd be generous and assume 1% failure rate instead of 0.

stonelotus: 3) the vast majority of germans apparently thought it was a good idea to eliminate the jews at one point too.  your point?

Actually, they didn't, but go on with your pre-concieved notions.

stonelotus: 4) guy, a man was jailed because he taught his dog to raise its paw.

Which, again, is from the Daily Fail, which means I have doubts about it actually happening.

stonelotus: 5) you do know how to google don't you?

You make the assertions, you provide the evidence.

stonelotus: 6) typical response.  nah sparky, I'm not a holocaust denier.  I'm a holocaust don't-give-a-farker.  regardless, whether I believe it happened or didn't, I'm not the one who turned it into an industry, hence the trademark lest someone try to sue me for infringement.  and yeah, it's still legislating history, no matter how much you don't want it to be.  but hey, maybe you can lobby for some laws to make people care!

Again, this is not about belief. It is about actual, factual, history. The "turning it into an industry" isn't helping your cause either.

Would you also be against a law that says "Teaching that John Smith was the first president of the USA is illegal"?

how lazy are you exactly?


FTFA: "according to the British tabloid The Sun. "

So instead of the Daily Fail, you go with a website basing their story on a tabloid.

And it still doesn't address that one example =/= rampant abuse of it.
 
2014-01-27 01:11:17 PM  

o'really: The Dogs of War: After re-reading the article when I wasn't dead tired, I realized this was in Lublin. I visited Lubin and the Majdanek death camp in the summer of 2012. It was a very surreal place. The camp was literally next to the town; I could see downtown from the center of camp. There are two monuments dedicated to those who died there. I also visited the crematorium. Very unsettling places.

Speaking of surreal, step out of the train in dachau, get confronted by a gigantic "wilkommen en dachau" mcdonalds sign on the wall of the station.

/the camp itself is underwhelming, empty rooms and walls of text.


It's sort of macabre but I always wished someone would build an exact replica of the large shower complex of Dachau in the US. Let people go in and experience what is was like to be herded into a room together, have the doors locked shut and lights go out.

Let people experience as closely as possible what efficiency experts can bring to murder.

/nudity and sounds of gas being released are probably right out
 
2014-01-27 01:11:22 PM  

InterruptingQuirk: grumpfuff: InterruptingQuirk: grumpfuff: InterruptingQuirk: grumpfuff: InterruptingQuirk: grumpfuff: It's making denying what actually happened illegal.

There are lots of things that people believe that didn't happen and vice versa. Are you advocating that we mandate a consensus of truth and then regulate conformity to that official narrative?

The Holocaust happening is not a matter of belief.

To some people it is, stupid though it may be. Is it not people's right anymore to be stupid? I think we will find ourselves banging our heads against the wall trying legislate stupidity away.

Some people also think it's valid to teach ID in science class.

I reiterate.

When that stupidity harms others and can hinder progress, no, it is not their right.

Just to use you example of teaching ID in science class. How does that harm people? Do not start down on some righteous track on how ID is not science, that is not what this is about. You said it harms people.


Having kids improperly educated, or taught flat out lies, is harmful in my opinion.
 
2014-01-27 01:19:22 PM  
stonelotus
4) guy, a man was jailed because he taught his dog to raise its paw.


Yeah? I just bothered Google and looked up stories about this in German papers instead of the Daily Fail or its German equivalents.
There the story reads sliiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiigthly different.
Let me fix that for you:

Guy, a judge didn't give a fark about that dog raising its paw in front of police officer; the judge cared, however, about the accompanying Hitler T-shirt wearing owner making the Nazi salute and shouting "Sieg Heil". Shiat, even that was overlooked because he's brain damaged.
This repeat, mentally unstable offender
had been handed suspended sentences by courts since 2003 and was said to be notorious for openly giving Nazi salutes and wearing pro-Hitler T-shirts
Guy, this man was finally jailed and fined for causing a car crash while driving drunk.
His totally sane reaction to this was C): he planned to have [the dog]put down on the anniversary of the dictator's suicide.
This, he said, was because he could not afford dog food after being fined for other Nazi-related behaviour. driving drunk and causing an accident.


If you can read German, here are some more fun details about this guy's earlier antics:
http://www.tagesspiegel.de/berlin/geklaeffe-von-ganz-rechts/456600.h tm l
Who would have thought that law enforcement overlooking-all-your-Nazi-shiat might frown upon you causing a gun scare by waving around and firing a blank pistol at a children's daycare.
I didn't bother looking for a follow-up, but I wouldn't be surprised if this was the incident that let to the judge suggesting psychiatric treatment and him being on probation/getting the suspended sentence mentioned above.
 
2014-01-27 01:27:21 PM  

TheShavingofOccam123: o'really: The Dogs of War: After re-reading the article when I wasn't dead tired, I realized this was in Lublin. I visited Lubin and the Majdanek death camp in the summer of 2012. It was a very surreal place. The camp was literally next to the town; I could see downtown from the center of camp. There are two monuments dedicated to those who died there. I also visited the crematorium. Very unsettling places.

Speaking of surreal, step out of the train in dachau, get confronted by a gigantic "wilkommen en dachau" mcdonalds sign on the wall of the station.

/the camp itself is underwhelming, empty rooms and walls of text.

It's sort of macabre but I always wished someone would build an exact replica of the large shower complex of Dachau in the US. Let people go in and experience what is was like to be herded into a room together, have the doors locked shut and lights go out.

Let people experience as closely as possible what efficiency experts can bring to murder.

/nudity and sounds of gas being released are probably right out


gas-chamber wasn't the worse that could happen to you, nor was it efficient.
Labor camps were. Extermination by work.
Like the V2 factorys, overseen by Werner von Braun, or the Varta batery factory wich is responsible for a big shunk of the Quandt family wealth.
Prety much all of germany's big company used the free workforce, and almost none of the job-creators payed for it after the end of WW2.
Seeing the Mercedes star on top of that building just near the Gedäschnisskirsche in Berlin always make me sick.
 
2014-01-27 01:32:19 PM  

The Voice of Doom: stonelotus
4) guy, a man was jailed because he taught his dog to raise its paw.

Yeah? I just bothered Google and looked up stories about this in German papers instead of the Daily Fail or its German equivalents.
There the story reads sliiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiigthly different.
Let me fix that for you:

Guy, a judge didn't give a fark about that dog raising its paw in front of police officer; the judge cared, however, about the accompanying Hitler T-shirt wearing owner making the Nazi salute and shouting "Sieg Heil". Shiat, even that was overlooked because he's brain damaged.
This repeat, mentally unstable offender
had been handed suspended sentences by courts since 2003 and was said to be notorious for openly giving Nazi salutes and wearing pro-Hitler T-shirts
Guy, this man was finally jailed and fined for causing a car crash while driving drunk.
His totally sane reaction to this was C): he planned to have [the dog]put down on the anniversary of the dictator's suicide.
This, he said, was because he could not afford dog food after being fined for other Nazi-related behaviour. driving drunk and causing an accident.

If you can read German, here are some more fun details about this guy's earlier antics:
http://www.tagesspiegel.de/berlin/geklaeffe-von-ganz-rechts/456600.h tm l
Who would have thought that law enforcement overlooking-all-your-Nazi-shiat might frown upon you causing a gun scare by waving around and firing a blank pistol at a children's daycare.
I didn't bother looking for a follow-up, but I wouldn't be surprised if this was the incident that let to the judge suggesting psychiatric treatment and him being on probation/getting the suspended sentence mentioned above.


golfclap.jpg
 
2014-01-27 01:37:33 PM  

grumpfuff: InterruptingQuirk: grumpfuff: InterruptingQuirk: grumpfuff: InterruptingQuirk: grumpfuff: InterruptingQuirk: grumpfuff: It's making denying what actually happened illegal.

There are lots of things that people believe that didn't happen and vice versa. Are you advocating that we mandate a consensus of truth and then regulate conformity to that official narrative?

The Holocaust happening is not a matter of belief.

To some people it is, stupid though it may be. Is it not people's right anymore to be stupid? I think we will find ourselves banging our heads against the wall trying legislate stupidity away.

Some people also think it's valid to teach ID in science class.

I reiterate.

When that stupidity harms others and can hinder progress, no, it is not their right.

Just to use you example of teaching ID in science class. How does that harm people? Do not start down on some righteous track on how ID is not science, that is not what this is about. You said it harms people.

Having kids improperly educated, or taught flat out lies, is harmful in my opinion.


I suppose we could make that stretch if we frame our definition of harm based on the DSM-V. But back to there folks who are spouting denialist nonsense in the streets. They are a far cry from teaching it in classrooms.
 
2014-01-27 01:42:30 PM  

stonelotus: nah sparky, I'm not a holocaust denier. I'm a holocaust don't-give-a-farker. regardless, whether I believe it happened or didn't, I'm not the one who turned it into an industry, hence the trademark lest someone try to sue me for infringement. and yeah, it's still legislating history, no matter how much you don't want it to be. but hey, maybe you can lobby for some laws to make people care!


Yeah, you don't sound like a denier at all.
 
2014-01-27 01:43:02 PM  

InterruptingQuirk: grumpfuff: InterruptingQuirk: grumpfuff: InterruptingQuirk: grumpfuff: InterruptingQuirk: grumpfuff: InterruptingQuirk: grumpfuff: It's making denying what actually happened illegal.

There are lots of things that people believe that didn't happen and vice versa. Are you advocating that we mandate a consensus of truth and then regulate conformity to that official narrative?

The Holocaust happening is not a matter of belief.

To some people it is, stupid though it may be. Is it not people's right anymore to be stupid? I think we will find ourselves banging our heads against the wall trying legislate stupidity away.

Some people also think it's valid to teach ID in science class.

I reiterate.

When that stupidity harms others and can hinder progress, no, it is not their right.

Just to use you example of teaching ID in science class. How does that harm people? Do not start down on some righteous track on how ID is not science, that is not what this is about. You said it harms people.

Having kids improperly educated, or taught flat out lies, is harmful in my opinion.

I suppose we could make that stretch if we frame our definition of harm based on the DSM-V. But back to there folks who are spouting denialist nonsense in the streets. They are a far cry from teaching it in classrooms.


The big issue of the law is that it's less about preventing whack jobs from spouting denialist stuff on a corner, and more about groups using it to inspire hate and violence.
 
2014-01-27 01:50:34 PM  

grumpfuff: InterruptingQuirk: grumpfuff: InterruptingQuirk: grumpfuff: InterruptingQuirk: grumpfuff: InterruptingQuirk: grumpfuff: InterruptingQuirk: grumpfuff: It's making denying what actually happened illegal.

There are lots of things that people believe that didn't happen and vice versa. Are you advocating that we mandate a consensus of truth and then regulate conformity to that official narrative?

The Holocaust happening is not a matter of belief.

To some people it is, stupid though it may be. Is it not people's right anymore to be stupid? I think we will find ourselves banging our heads against the wall trying legislate stupidity away.

Some people also think it's valid to teach ID in science class.

I reiterate.

When that stupidity harms others and can hinder progress, no, it is not their right.

Just to use you example of teaching ID in science class. How does that harm people? Do not start down on some righteous track on how ID is not science, that is not what this is about. You said it harms people.

Having kids improperly educated, or taught flat out lies, is harmful in my opinion.

I suppose we could make that stretch if we frame our definition of harm based on the DSM-V. But back to there folks who are spouting denialist nonsense in the streets. They are a far cry from teaching it in classrooms.

The big issue of the law is that it's less about preventing whack jobs from spouting denialist stuff on a corner, and more about groups using it to inspire  hate and violence.


OK, now you added a variable which doesn't fall under the classic inciting to violence classification. I know that there are legal modifiers to criminal laws here in the states which amplify the consequences when 'intentions and feelings' are socially unacceptable. But those only ever come into play when there has actually been an act of violence committed. Were you including that mention as one of those modifiers I mentioned or are you categorizing it separately as its own crime?
 
2014-01-27 03:07:25 PM  

grumpfuff: 4) They are not as strict as most people seem to think. There is no law preventing reading or talking about Nazis, etc. It is only when you cast them in a positive light that the law takes effect.


It's hard to see how Wolfenstein 3D was putting them in a positive light, when the whole object of the game was to shoot them all, but it still got banned for some reason... Maybe they've changed the laws or mellowed in the interpretation of them since that time?
 
2014-01-27 06:07:28 PM  

cynicalbastard: One of the Big Lies, and this phrase whilst perhaps coined by Hitler definitely did not die with him any more than the technique it described, of German and European history in general, was that the Nazi anti-semtic ideology and the lengths which it was ready to go to was somehow an aberration, a freak of the times. In fact, their program would have never succeeded if it was.
There were in fact huge numbers of people in Germany, in France, Poland, and other occupied territories who thought that, in relation to the Jews, the Nazis had exactly the right idea. Pogroms, expulsions, systematic terror against the Jewish communities wherever they existed had been a fact of life in many parts of Europe where German was only spoken as a second language if it was spoken at all.
Almost everywhere that jackboots struck sparks off the cobblestones, it was merely necessary to announce Nazi policies against the Jewish population to ensure a great number of collaborators would show up. Of course, once the tide of the war turned, and the Nazis suffered defeat, there was a common tendency to hush up about all this.


Nor has anything really changed, nor is it exclusive to Europe, although Europe had a unique hatred of Jews and Roma that we reserve for blacks and dissenters, and of course homosexuals on both sides. I think it's just a human condition thing, every society has groups that they hate so much that many would cheer on a forced extermination program. The KKK is this on a small scale. If J. Edgar Hoover or Nixon had been just a little more insane, they might have done it to the hippies and revolutionaries, real and imagined.

Right now politics in this country is the most divided since Vietnam and the Civil Rights era, and the omnipresent death threats to the outspoken on both sides goes to show how many would be positively gleeful if they suddenly had permission to start killing, let alone if it was systematically organized and propagandized. The common hate for the lower class - the dirt poor, the panhandlers, the punks, the tweakers, the stoners, the prisoners - by middle-class liberals and conservatives alike is even scarier and where I could see it starting today.
 
2014-01-27 06:30:29 PM  

RobSeace: grumpfuff: 4) They are not as strict as most people seem to think. There is no law preventing reading or talking about Nazis, etc. It is only when you cast them in a positive light that the law takes effect.

It's hard to see how Wolfenstein 3D was putting them in a positive light, when the whole object of the game was to shoot them all, but it still got banned for some reason... Maybe they've changed the laws or mellowed in the interpretation of them since that time?


It was just the letter of the law, things like Nazi flags and swastikas are just plain banned outside of educational contexts there. It was a time of Nazi Panic following re-unification, and it has abated to a degree, but there's still a strong reaction against any display of the iconography. Consider the reaction here if running through a school shooting kids and teachers was a big part of a mainstream game; not saying they're equivalent, but the revulsion and offense many Germans feel toward Nazism is. Despite the existence of school shooting mods, there'd probably be a strong push to ban popular commercial games of that sort here.

Of course, Return to Castle Wolfenstein got away with homages so similar that no one could have missed it.
 
2014-01-27 09:58:14 PM  

o'really: Speaking of surreal, step out of the train in dachau, get confronted by a gigantic "wilkommen en dachau" mcdonalds sign on the wall of the station.

/the camp itself is underwhelming, empty rooms and walls of text.


My experience was unlike yours.
Of course, I knew that the short span of railroad tracks I walked beside were a small remnant of the very same ones where American soldiers liberating the camp walked a much longer line of cattle cars stuffed to overflowing with the remains of murdered, innocent human beings dumped there from other camps by their guards.
I knew that when I walked in the gates, I was walking into a slaughterhouse for thirty-one thousand human beings.
I also knew that Dachau was not an extermination camp and that many of the non-Jewish prisoners there, most of them
political prisoners, walked out free.
I knew that the crematoria sent smoke into the nearby towns downwind, including part of Munich, and that the people living there, to a person, claimed ignorance of what was going on there. I also know that the stench of burning human is absolutely unmistakable and unforgettable. After Desert Storm, the most popular soldiers were the ones with gasoline backup generators for good reason.

And I stood in that "underwhelming" graveyard next to my wife and looked at this
www.legendtech.net
and the words that filled me came from no "walls of text", but from the minyan of the murdered that surrounded us.
They were the words of the Sanctification of the Orphans, which is usually called the Mourner's Kaddish in English.

Unbidden, they tripped over my tongue and stumbled across my lips and out my mouth:
Yitgadal v'yitkadash sh'mei raba ...
(Exalted and hallowed be the great Name...
Blessed, praised, honored, exalted, extolled, glorified, adored, and lauded
be the name of the Holy Blessed One, beyond all earthly words and songs of blessing,
praise, and comfort ...
May the One who creates harmony on high bring peace to all ... )


And shortly after I concluded, "V'imru: Amen.", a group of Germans stopped in front of the sculpture, handed me their camera,
and asked me to take a group picture of them.
Then, laughing, they posed.

I didn't break their camera.
I didn't yell my outrage at them.
I took pictures while they clowned, laughed and posed.

And I vowed again never to forget.

/I hope they treasure the twenty-one blurry pictures I took of their ugly shoes.
 
2014-01-27 10:15:23 PM  

demaL-demaL-yeH: And I vowed again never to forget.


Why were gasoline generators tied to soldier popularity and what is that photo of?
 
2014-01-27 10:20:17 PM  

InterruptingQuirk: demaL-demaL-yeH: And I vowed again never to forget.

Why were gasoline generators tied to soldier popularity and what is that photo of?


Gasoline on your bandanna masks the stench of burnt human.
And that picture is a very famous sculpture in the Dachau concentration camp.
 
2014-01-27 10:34:01 PM  

demaL-demaL-yeH: InterruptingQuirk: demaL-demaL-yeH: And I vowed again never to forget.

Why were gasoline generators tied to soldier popularity and what is that photo of?

Gasoline on your bandanna masks the stench of burnt human.
And that picture is a very famous sculpture in the Dachau concentration camp.


Burnt human flesh has no "stench". It actually smells quite nice, like pork. And smelling it does not cause nerve damage or cancer, unlike inhaling gasoline.
 
2014-01-27 10:42:18 PM  

Tetzlaff: It actually smells quite nice, like pork.


While I agree with your take of the health/aesthetic benefit/cost ratio you queried on, that was an insensitive comparison to make.
 
2014-01-27 11:30:48 PM  

Tetzlaff: Burnt human flesh has no "stench". It actually smells quite nice, like pork. And smelling it does not cause nerve damage or cancer, unlike inhaling gasoline.


While I can't say where you were in the aftermath of Desert Storm, I can make a definitive statement about where you weren't.
 
2014-01-27 11:43:36 PM  

demaL-demaL-yeH: o'really: Speaking of surreal, step out of the train in dachau, get confronted by a gigantic "wilkommen en dachau" mcdonalds sign on the wall of the station.

/the camp itself is underwhelming, empty rooms and walls of text.

My experience was unlike yours.
Of course, I knew that the short span of railroad tracks I walked beside were a small remnant of the very same ones where American soldiers liberating the camp walked a much longer line of cattle cars stuffed to overflowing with the remains of murdered, innocent human beings dumped there from other camps by their guards.
I knew that when I walked in the gates, I was walking into a slaughterhouse for thirty-one thousand human beings.
I also knew that Dachau was not an extermination camp and that many of the non-Jewish prisoners there, most of them
political prisoners, walked out free.
I knew that the crematoria sent smoke into the nearby towns downwind, including part of Munich, and that the people living there, to a person, claimed ignorance of what was going on there. I also know that the stench of burning human is absolutely unmistakable and unforgettable. After Desert Storm, the most popular soldiers were the ones with gasoline backup generators for good reason.

And I stood in that "underwhelming" graveyard next to my wife and looked at this

and the words that filled me came from no "walls of text", but from the minyan of the murdered that surrounded us.
They were the words of the Sanctification of the Orphans, which is usually called the Mourner's Kaddish in English.

Unbidden, they tripped over my tongue and stumbled across my lips and out my mouth:
Yitgadal v'yitkadash sh'mei raba ...
(Exalted and hallowed be the great Name...
Blessed, praised, honored, exalted, extolled, glorified, adored, and lauded
be the name of the Holy Blessed One, beyond all earthly words and songs of blessing,
praise, and comfort ...
May the One who creates harmony on high bring peace to all ... )

And shortly after I concluded, "V'imru: Amen.", a group of Germans stopped in front of the sculpture, handed me their camera,
and asked me to take a group picture of them.
Then, laughing, they posed.

I didn't break their camera.
I didn't yell my outrage at them.
I took pictures while they clowned, laughed and posed.

And I vowed again never to forget.

/I hope they treasure the twenty-one blurry pictures I took of their ugly shoes.


It's not that i didn't appreciate the gravity of the history of the place, but i felt it was a ineffectively executed memorial on the whole.

but i respect the emotion you felt. I felt rather conflicted myself.

/ my family background is both German and Jewish
 
2014-01-28 12:07:09 AM  

demaL-demaL-yeH: Tetzlaff: Burnt human flesh has no "stench". It actually smells quite nice, like pork. And smelling it does not cause nerve damage or cancer, unlike inhaling gasoline.

While I can't say where you were in the aftermath of Desert Storm, I can make a definitive statement about where you weren't.


Well, I wasn't running around with a gasoline soaked towel around my head. That's for sure.
 
2014-01-28 12:15:12 AM  
o'really: demaL-demaL-yeH: o'really: Speaking of surreal, step out of the train in dachau, get confronted by a gigantic "wilkommen en dachau" mcdonalds sign on the wall of the station.


It's better than the...
...
And I vowed again never to forget.

/I hope they treasure the twenty-one blurry pictures I took of their ugly shoes.

It's not that i didn't appreciate the gravity of the history of the place, but i felt it was a ineffectively executed memorial on the whole.

but i respect the emotion you felt. I felt rather conflicted myself.

/ my family background is both German and Jewish


iat's better than the "misguided" holocaust memorial in the middle of Berlin, right next to the Brandenburg Gate and the US embassy. A bunch of concrete slabs tourists hop around on and, when they're drunk, piss against. The place is too large to be guarded by security properly to prevent that from happening.
Speaking of a memorial a country makes in the heart of it's capital to remember a horrible black mark in it's history and be humbled by it: When is Washington DC getting a Hiroshima/Nagasaki memorial?
 
2014-01-28 12:24:42 AM  

Tetzlaff: demaL-demaL-yeH: Tetzlaff: Burnt human flesh has no "stench". It actually smells quite nice, like pork. And smelling it does not cause nerve damage or cancer, unlike inhaling gasoline.

While I can't say where you were in the aftermath of Desert Storm, I can make a definitive statement about where you weren't.

Well, I wasn't running around with a gasoline soaked towel around my head.


O.o

The bandanna covers the face.
A drop of gasoline in front of your nose.
Who the fark is dumbass enough to assume that anybody would run around all Molotov Cocktailhead?
/Flashblock. It just works.
//Hmm. Somebody just earned a farkie.
 
2014-01-28 07:34:44 AM  

Tetzlaff: When is Washington DC getting a Hiroshima/Nagasaki memorial?


Never. And that is a good thing.


Read up on the battle of Okinawa, and what was coming from the Emperor prior to the first bombing. If you think that was all propaganda, ask yourself why they were prepared for another bombing before surrendering. Why did they declare martial law to stop anyone from making overtures of surrender.
 
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