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    More: Followup, Texas, WFAA-TV, John Peter Smith Hospital, Marlise Munoz, public hospital  
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11882 clicks; posted to Main » on 26 Jan 2014 at 6:14 PM (25 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-01-26 04:31:46 PM
And may a sister Paramedic rest in peace, and her husband find peace (And a HUGE lawsuit). This whole event was a travesty, and should frighten anyone who believes that we have the right to determine our medical care and the heroic measures by which our life, without any quality, should be prolonged.

There never was a chance that this fetus was going to survive. It was dead the moment the embolism hit her pulmonary circulation. It had no brain, and was grossly deformed.

And yet some administrator and lawyer, with NO medical training, wanted to keep this poor woman's dead body artificially supported so they could perform some twisted medical experiment and make her a martyr for the anti-abortion movement.

I wish there was a hell for these people.
 
2014-01-26 04:32:33 PM
Why do the media keep referring to a corpse as a "woman"? The moment brain activity ceased, she became an inanimate object.
 
2014-01-26 04:34:54 PM
Good, now she can rest in peace.
 
2014-01-26 04:42:06 PM
Good, the hospital realized the futility of fighting it.
 
2014-01-26 04:42:30 PM
It kind of makes you wonder if there's such a thing as a wrongful life lawsuit. This instance definitely displays a need for it.
 
2014-01-26 04:42:58 PM
wizbangblog.com

But seriously, enjoy your rest. Sorry everyone knows about it.
 
2014-01-26 04:44:57 PM
i798.photobucket.com yoink
 
2014-01-26 04:45:12 PM
This entire case is so incredibly horrifying, on every single level. The guy lost his wife and baby, and instead of being able to grieve and figure out how to raise his son by himself, he has to deal with Dr. Mengel experimenting on thier corpses.
 
2014-01-26 04:54:55 PM
I think the first thing I did with my wife after the whole Terri Schiavo thing was write out exactly what we wanted done if we were brain dead, or close to brain dead (she didn't require a breathing apparatus, but did require a feeding tube, and that's a distinction you need to plan for).  We each signed an agreement and then took it to our lawyer to church it up.

It turns out including "because keeping me alive would be a farking waste of money" is not something you should include in your living will because it gives someone an opening to challenge your state of mind when you signed your statement.  But we've both been under for surgery, and we both agreed that if our brain activity was less than that, we weren't going to notice if someone pulled the plug, so there's no point hoping for a miracle that won't come.

At this point I think a living will should be required along with registering for the selective service when kids turn 18.  Even though it wouldn't stop the nonsense in this case, it would stop quite a bit of it elsewhere.
 
2014-01-26 05:00:39 PM

Lsherm: At this point I think a living will should be required along with registering for the selective service when kids turn 18.  Even though it wouldn't stop the nonsense in this case, it would stop quite a bit of it elsewhere.


Unfortunately, the way that the hospital's attorney applied the Texas Law that allowed them to start this debacle in the first place, it invalidated her living will and her advanced directives on the idea that she had a viable, term fetus in her womb.

Texas: Small Government. Small enough for your uterus.
 
2014-01-26 05:22:20 PM

hardinparamedic: Lsherm: At this point I think a living will should be required along with registering for the selective service when kids turn 18.  Even though it wouldn't stop the nonsense in this case, it would stop quite a bit of it elsewhere.

Unfortunately, the way that the hospital's attorney applied the Texas Law that allowed them to start this debacle in the first place, it invalidated her living will and her advanced directives on the idea that she had a viable, term fetus in her womb.

Texas: Small Government. Small enough for your uterus.


I know, that's why I said it wouldn't stop the nonsense in this case.  But I'm still unsure what the hospital thought was going to happen, There's precedent for a fetus surviving in cases like these, but they are usually much farther along and not demonstrably malformed.  They weren't even reading the law correctly, because by Texas standards the woman was already dead.  They were providing life support for the fetus.
 
2014-01-26 05:23:58 PM

Lsherm: hardinparamedic: Lsherm: At this point I think a living will should be required along with registering for the selective service when kids turn 18.  Even though it wouldn't stop the nonsense in this case, it would stop quite a bit of it elsewhere.

Unfortunately, the way that the hospital's attorney applied the Texas Law that allowed them to start this debacle in the first place, it invalidated her living will and her advanced directives on the idea that she had a viable, term fetus in her womb.

Texas: Small Government. Small enough for your uterus.

I know, that's why I said it wouldn't stop the nonsense in this case.  But I'm still unsure what the hospital thought was going to happen, There's precedent for a fetus surviving in cases like these, but they are usually much farther along and not demonstrably malformed.  They weren't even reading the law correctly, because by Texas standards the woman was already dead.  They were providing life support for the fetus.


As far as I understand this, it's less about what the hospital or her medical care team thought, and more about what the local DA and the hospital administrator wanted to do with this woman - namely make her a martyr for the anti-abortion cause in Texas.
 
2014-01-26 05:44:12 PM

what_now: This entire case is so incredibly horrifying, on every single level. The guy lost his wife and baby, and instead of being able to grieve and figure out how to raise his son by himself, he has to deal with Dr. Mengel experimenting on thier corpses.


This. So f*cking much this. I'm not even all that pro-abortion in most cases but this was a sick medical experiment and is a prime example of what happens when you elect extremist nutcases to be the ones making decisions. What a horrifying goddamn situation.

The hospital better eat that bill. If they don't the PR sh*tstorm might be enough to implode Texas.
 
2014-01-26 05:50:37 PM

hardinparamedic: namely make her a martyr for the anti-abortion cause in Texas.


Then I doubt they thought it through.  My twin brother and his wife had a hydraencephalitic baby in 2003 and they kept her to term because they are staunchly Catholic.  And that's fine, they wanted to do it, and the baby died during delivery.  It was an extra-complicated delivery, but everyone was clear and prepared for the likely outcome ahead of time. They knew survival was a long shot, and even if she survived she wouldn't be "normal" even if she somehow managed to end up on the higher functioning end of children like that who survive birth.

But that was a decision they both made together.  It was probably the correct decision because it was his wife's first child and she got the closure of a funeral and family support even though we all knew a happy ending wasn't coming.  What that hospital was attempting to put that family through was awful.  I know, I've been through it.  To complicate it by saying "Congratulations! Here's your baby who is going to die within days, and BTW we just took your wife off life support so she's kicking it even as we speak!" is just terrible.

She wouldn't be a martyr, she'd be a horrific example of governmental overreach.
 
2014-01-26 05:53:35 PM

Lsherm: She wouldn't be a martyr, she'd be a horrific example of governmental overreach.


You're thinking with rational hindsight. Not the cognitive dissonance of "The Government was just trying to protect the unborn life the libtards want to murder".

This whole case is one gigantic episode of Christian Dominionism and the Anti-Abortion movement in the United States. And I'm also willing to bet that when this goes to court, and it will, that it's going to come out that like the Terri Schiavo debacle, there were major players in the Anti-Abortion and "Pro-Life" movements who were pulling strings on this and egging the Hospital consul and administrators on.
 
2014-01-26 06:07:35 PM

imapirate: The hospital better eat that bill. If they don't the PR sh*tstorm might be enough to implode Texas.


Oh, I'd really want to hear about that.
 
2014-01-26 06:07:41 PM
What I've read indicates Texas wasn't that insane, but the hospital was.
 
2014-01-26 06:08:24 PM

cryinoutloud: imapirate: The hospital better eat that bill. If they don't the PR sh*tstorm might be enough to implode Texas.
Oh, I'd really want to hear about that.


But it makes no difference anyway--I wonder what the guy's legal bills are?
 
2014-01-26 06:09:03 PM

hardinparamedic: Lsherm: She wouldn't be a martyr, she'd be a horrific example of governmental overreach.

You're thinking with rational hindsight. Not the cognitive dissonance of "The Government was just trying to protect the unborn life the libtards want to murder".

This whole case is one gigantic episode of Christian Dominionism and the Anti-Abortion movement in the United States. And I'm also willing to bet that when this goes to court, and it will, that it's going to come out that like the Terri Schiavo debacle, there were major players in the Anti-Abortion and "Pro-Life" movements who were pulling strings on this and egging the Hospital consul and administrators on.


...who wouldn't be willing to have their taxes go toward supporting the horrifically deformed child.
 
2014-01-26 06:10:49 PM

bluorangefyre: What I've read indicates Texas wasn't that insane, but the hospital was.


Texas started the problem because they enacted the law. But apparently the hospital's counsel was headed by a far-right lunatic who told them the law applied here when it did not. Hell, even the extremist at SMU who wrote the law came out publicly and said it didn't apply to this situation and he supported pulling the plug.
 
2014-01-26 06:16:50 PM
There was never going to be a happy ending in this scenario. Only less terrible ones.
I hope the family can find some peace.
 
2014-01-26 06:17:08 PM
'Bout damn time.
 
2014-01-26 06:21:03 PM

hardinparamedic: And may a sister Paramedic rest in peace, and her husband find peace (And a HUGE lawsuit). This whole event was a travesty, and should frighten anyone who believes that we have the right to determine our medical care and the heroic measures by which our life, without any quality, should be prolonged.

There never was a chance that this fetus was going to survive. It was dead the moment the embolism hit her pulmonary circulation. It had no brain, and was grossly deformed.

And yet some administrator and lawyer, with NO medical training, wanted to keep this poor woman's dead body artificially supported so they could perform some twisted medical experiment and make her a martyr for the anti-abortion movement.

I wish there was a hell for these people.


This. 100% this.
 
2014-01-26 06:21:59 PM

hardinparamedic: Lsherm: She wouldn't be a martyr, she'd be a horrific example of governmental overreach.

You're thinking with rational hindsight. Not the cognitive dissonance of "The Government was just trying to protect the unborn life the libtards want to murder".

This whole case is one gigantic episode of Christian Dominionism and the Anti-Abortion movement in the United States. And I'm also willing to bet that when this goes to court, and it will, that it's going to come out that like the Terri Schiavo debacle, there were major players in the Anti-Abortion and "Pro-Life" movements who were pulling strings on this and egging the Hospital consul and administrators on.


Considering how many people seem to cheer on abortions and pulling plugs, I am more afraid of that side myself.  This is why I'd never want a single payer or socialist health care system.  I'd have a perfectly treatable disease, but the death cheerleaders would think it easier just to let me die.  No thank you.
 
2014-01-26 06:22:20 PM
Arise, CORSE TURDUCKEN!
 
2014-01-26 06:22:41 PM
I sincerely hope this parade of ghouls is hauled before the medical board and state bar to explain themselves.

Licenses to practice have been revoked for far less.
 
2014-01-26 06:27:40 PM

imapirate: what_now: This entire case is so incredibly horrifying, on every single level. The guy lost his wife and baby, and instead of being able to grieve and figure out how to raise his son by himself, he has to deal with Dr. Mengel experimenting on thier corpses.

This. So f*cking much this. I'm not even all that pro-abortion in most cases but this was a sick medical experiment and is a prime example of what happens when you elect extremist nutcases to be the ones making decisions. What a horrifying goddamn situation.

The hospital better eat that bill. If they don't the PR sh*tstorm might be enough to implode Texas.

get the asshole administrator elected state senator.
 
2014-01-26 06:29:42 PM

06Wahoo: Considering how many people seem to cheer on abortions and pulling plugs, I am more afraid of that side myself.  This is why I'd never want a single payer or socialist health care system.  I'd have a perfectly treatable disease, but the death cheerleaders would think it easier just to let me die.  No thank you.


That's an awful long-winded way to say you have no clue what you're ranting about, Sir.
 
2014-01-26 06:31:19 PM

GWSuperfan: Why do the media keep referring to a corpse as a "woman"? The moment brain activity ceased, she became an inanimate object.


At what age did you become an inanimate object?
 
2014-01-26 06:31:29 PM

hardinparamedic: 06Wahoo: Considering how many people seem to cheer on abortions and pulling plugs, I am more afraid of that side myself.  This is why I'd never want a single payer or socialist health care system.  I'd have a perfectly treatable disease, but the death cheerleaders would think it easier just to let me die.  No thank you.

That's an awful long-winded way to say you have no clue what you're ranting about, Sir.


This.

//Retired EMT-P. Don't fark with my DNR.
 
2014-01-26 06:32:04 PM
Good. I suspect the mother and baby were tortured in this gesture of "humanitarianism."

/I feel so bad for the family.
//I actually feel bad for the people who thought they were helping.
 
2014-01-26 06:33:19 PM
And in the comment section of another article I read people were calling the husband a baby murderer.

It's disgusting.
 
2014-01-26 06:34:49 PM

icam: And in the comment section of another article I read people were calling the husband a baby murderer.

It's disgusting.


Stupid people will always exist.
 
2014-01-26 06:36:01 PM

06Wahoo: I'd have a perfectly treatable disease, but the death cheerleaders would think it easier just to let me die.  No thank you.


When you are S-I-C-K
We already know that you can't pay.
We'll let you die A-S-A-P
Unless you are a deformed baby!
Obamacare! Obamacare! Obamacare!
 
2014-01-26 06:36:16 PM

06Wahoo: socialist health care system


DRINK!
 
2014-01-26 06:37:04 PM

hardinparamedic: And may a sister Paramedic rest in peace, and her husband find peace (And a HUGE lawsuit). This whole event was a travesty, and should frighten anyone who believes that we have the right to determine our medical care and the heroic measures by which our life, without any quality, should be prolonged.

There never was a chance that this fetus was going to survive. It was dead the moment the embolism hit her pulmonary circulation. It had no brain, and was grossly deformed.

And yet some administrator and lawyer, with NO medical training, wanted to keep this poor woman's dead body artificially supported so they could perform some twisted medical experiment and make her a martyr for the anti-abortion movement.

I wish there was a hell for these people.


So very frikin' true, some person with a bit of power takes a sad situation and makes it worse for a political point.
 
2014-01-26 06:37:43 PM

icam: And in the comment section of another article I read people were calling the husband a baby murderer.

It's disgusting.


Some of the people on Facebook stories of this have already convicted the father of Murdering his wife to begin with because he didn't want the baby.

So many internet Matlocks and Columbos on facebook.
 
2014-01-26 06:38:20 PM

06Wahoo: Considering how many people seem to cheer on abortions and pulling plugs, I am more afraid of that side myself. This is why I'd never want a single payer or socialist health care system. I'd have a perfectly treatable disease, but the death cheerleaders would think it easier just to let me die. No thank you.


Yeah cause the NHS totally let Stephen Hawking die...
 
2014-01-26 06:42:18 PM

hardinparamedic: This whole event was a travesty, and should frighten anyone who believes that we have the right to determine our medical care and the heroic measures by which our life, without any quality, should be prolonged.


I don't know about you, but I have that right... but then again I'm a straight white male.
 
2014-01-26 06:42:22 PM
Article doesn't say her heart stopped? She's still hanging in there God bless her! We will get to meet Perfect Angel Miracle Baby Munoz and all you naysayers will be ashamed of yourselves, and I pray for Mrs. Munoz's speedy recovery, I can't wait for her to meet her baby!
 
2014-01-26 06:42:33 PM
static1.wikia.nocookie.net
 
2014-01-26 06:42:40 PM
Just for the hell of it, they should have tried a 30/30/30 reset on her.
 
2014-01-26 06:43:06 PM

hardinparamedic: 06Wahoo: Considering how many people seem to cheer on abortions and pulling plugs, I am more afraid of that side myself.  This is why I'd never want a single payer or socialist health care system.  I'd have a perfectly treatable disease, but the death cheerleaders would think it easier just to let me die.  No thank you.

That's an awful long-winded way to say you have no clue what you're ranting about, Sir.


Your soap box. Get off of it. I agree that this whole deal was farked up from the get go.
 
2014-01-26 06:43:53 PM

ransack.: Article doesn't say her heart stopped? She's still hanging in there God bless her! We will get to meet Perfect Angel Miracle Baby Munoz and all you naysayers will be ashamed of yourselves, and I pray for Mrs. Munoz's speedy recovery, I can't wait for her to meet her baby!


Quiet, you fool!

DO YOU WISH THE DEAD TO ROAM THE EARTH?

farm3.staticflickr.com
 
2014-01-26 06:44:08 PM

henryhill: GWSuperfan: Why do the media keep referring to a corpse as a "woman"? The moment brain activity ceased, she became an inanimate object.

At what age did you become an inanimate object?


When you are inanimated!
 
2014-01-26 06:45:03 PM

WTFDYW: Your soap box. Get off of it. I agree that this whole deal was farked up from the get go.


Did you forget which alt you were logged in as, me boyo?
 
2014-01-26 06:45:56 PM

doyner: hardinparamedic: Lsherm: She wouldn't be a martyr, she'd be a horrific example of governmental overreach.

You're thinking with rational hindsight. Not the cognitive dissonance of "The Government was just trying to protect the unborn life the libtards want to murder".

This whole case is one gigantic episode of Christian Dominionism and the Anti-Abortion movement in the United States. And I'm also willing to bet that when this goes to court, and it will, that it's going to come out that like the Terri Schiavo debacle, there were major players in the Anti-Abortion and "Pro-Life" movements who were pulling strings on this and egging the Hospital consul and administrators on.

...who wouldn't be willing to have their taxes go toward supporting the horrifically deformed child.


It seems that the hospital's own counsul is to blame.

http://rhrealitycheck.org/article/2014/01/10/hospital-in-marlise-mun oz -case-represented-by-anti-choice-lawyer-family-to-sue/
 
2014-01-26 06:48:06 PM
I have no alt.
 
2014-01-26 06:48:44 PM
This culture of death is sad.  Makes me weep for our future.
 
2014-01-26 06:49:03 PM

hardinparamedic: Lsherm: She wouldn't be a martyr, she'd be a horrific example of governmental overreach.

You're thinking with rational hindsight. Not the cognitive dissonance of "The Government was just trying to protect the unborn life the libtards want to murder".

This whole case is one gigantic episode of Christian Dominionism and the Anti-Abortion movement in the United States. And I'm also willing to bet that when this goes to court, and it will, that it's going to come out that like the Terri Schiavo debacle, there were major players in the Anti-Abortion and "Pro-Life" movements who were pulling strings on this and egging the Hospital consul and administrators on.


If it was later in the pregnancy and there was a better than even chance you were dealing with a survivable child, it would be a different argument.  This was not one of those times.

As for Schiavo, I remember delving deep into that case because while she was brain dead, she wasn't so far gone that she required traditional life support.  It was different altogether.  She was possibly at the highest point of brain death you could consider, and it was worth, at the very least, having a debate about it, or at least what constitutes being dead.  In Schiavo's case her feeding tube was keeping her alive, but her involuntary functions were still working.   I'm more realistic than most about that - I've put many animals to sleep because they can no longer eat and I don't think humans are so special as to require an exception.

And where Schiavo differed even more, and probably most importantly, is that invested family members had differing views about taking care of her.  In this case no one in the family wanted her to remain on life support, and inexplicably the hospital did.
 
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