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(Capital Journal)   In one of those "it's sad that we had to resort to making it illegal", South Dakota proposes bill to have students held back if they can't read. Sad tag beats out Obvious tag crying in the corner   (capjournal.com) divider line 90
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3135 clicks; posted to Main » on 25 Jan 2014 at 7:02 PM (48 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-01-25 03:17:19 PM  
if they're willing to put the money into getting the kids who are being socially promoted proficient, imokaywiththis.jpg.
 
2014-01-25 07:01:16 PM  
"It would help other schools that aren't BIE," he said.

EIP
 
2014-01-25 07:05:49 PM  
Can't read TFA. Some posting disclaimer showed up rather than a story.
 
2014-01-25 07:08:13 PM  
Well, now I understand why Drew never has any Fark Parties in South Dakota.
 
2014-01-25 07:08:54 PM  
It's all part of the writing conspiracy that has been around since Socrates complained that reading was making it so no one had to remember things. We'd all be happier in a Bradburish 451F world where the books were gone and we didn't have them to spread malicious thoughts long after their perpetrators had been brought to justice.
 
2014-01-25 07:09:11 PM  
Passing illiterate kids?

That's retarded, sir.
 
2014-01-25 07:10:39 PM  

Mrbogey: Passing illiterate kids?

That's retarded, sir.


Yeah, but are the kids good at throwing a ball around? Many people consider that more important than things like literacy?
 
2014-01-25 07:12:11 PM  
ACLU suing South Dakota in 5..4..3..2
 
2014-01-25 07:12:15 PM  

pueblonative: if they're willing to put the money into getting the kids who are being socially promoted proficient, imokaywiththis.jpg.


By definition, making them repeat the grade is putting the money into getting them proficient.

The bigger issue is what should be occurring to teachers who are allowing kids to advance who aren't able to read at an acceptable level.
 
2014-01-25 07:14:38 PM  
Sad they gotta do this by legislative action, it should be a no brainer.
 
2014-01-25 07:15:54 PM  
Why do the kids got to read good?     They can't write too good no how.
 
2014-01-25 07:16:54 PM  
This was one of the many many many reasons I went to grad school instead of continuing as a high school teacher. If the kids pass one quarter, they pass the class. Most of them knew this too. Some would go strong for the first semester and get an A and then do nothing the rest of the term, others would slack off until the last quarter (which tends to be mostly review for state exams -- the second reason I left -- and grab a decent grade then. It's ridiculous.


/Will have no problem failing kids if I need to when I'm a professor.
 
2014-01-25 07:19:04 PM  

marius2: /Will have no problem failing kids if I need to when I'm a professor.


Try that at Harvard or Yale.
 
2014-01-25 07:20:32 PM  
www.ugmonk.com

Seriously...been teaching since 2000, and one of my first contract gigs was teaching a room full of 9th graders who read at a 3rd grade level...for 3 hours a day.  Thank God I was young and needed the money.

Now I teach grades 9-12 (Art) and still somehow end up with a "fail-rate" of about 30%.  Mostly it's kids that have been passed from one grade to the next without having to do jack shiat, and figure it'll be the same in high school.
 
2014-01-25 07:21:44 PM  

grimlock1972: Sad they gotta do this by legislative action, it should be a no brainer.


They are no-brainers, that is why the legislative action is needed.
 
2014-01-25 07:22:33 PM  

marius2: This was one of the many many many reasons I went to grad school instead of continuing as a high school teacher. If the kids pass one quarter, they pass the class. Most of them knew this too. Some would go strong for the first semester and get an A and then do nothing the rest of the term, others would slack off until the last quarter (which tends to be mostly review for state exams -- the second reason I left -- and grab a decent grade then. It's ridiculous.


/Will have no problem failing kids if I need to when I'm a professor.


You may not. Your department chair or the Dean might. It's less autonomous than you might think, especially before tenure.
 
2014-01-25 07:25:35 PM  
gar1013: pueblonative: if they're willing to put the money into getting the kids who are being socially promoted proficient, imokaywiththis.jpg.

By definition, making them repeat the grade is putting the money into getting them proficient.


The bigger issue is what should be occurring to teachers who are allowing kids to advance who aren't able to read at an acceptable level.

The bigger issue still is whether or not grade retention has a long term positive impact at all.

     "Systematic reviews and meta-analyses examining research over the past century (studies
between 1911-1999) conclude that the cumulative evidence does not support the use of grade
retention as an intervention for academic achievement or socio-emotional adjustment problems
(Holmes, 1989; Jimerson, 2001). Recent comparisons of academic achievement (i.e., reading,
math, and language) and socio-emotional adjustment (i.e., emotional adjustment, peer competence,
problem behaviors, attendance and self-esteem) between retained and matched comparison stu-
dents, reported in 19 studies published during the 1990s, yielded negative effects of grade retention
across all areas of achievement and socio-emotional adjustment
(Jimerson, 2001)...

      "Typically, the test scores of students who are retained in the primary grades may increase for a couple of years and then decline below those of their equally low-achieving but socially promoted peers.   The temporary benefits of retention are deceptive, as teachers do not usually follow studentprogress beyond a few years."
 
2014-01-25 07:26:38 PM  

mrlewish: marius2: /Will have no problem failing kids if I need to when I'm a professor.

Try that at Harvard or Yale.


ChubbyTiger:

You may not. Your department chair or the Dean might. It's less autonomous than you might think, especially before tenure.

Oh I know, and with any athletes or "protected" students.  It's just much easier than with high school, I'd imagine. I know the poltiics and such are strong as hell in the uni environment too, but I'll at least enjoy teaching a bit more too when I'm there (reason three I left high school... we covered WW1 in a day.... and all the kids had to know was when it started and when it ended)
 
2014-01-25 07:26:41 PM  
And this is a problem because?

If you can't read, maybe you're not a "good fit" for society
 
2014-01-25 07:26:44 PM  

wildcardjack: It's all part of the writing conspiracy that has been around since Socrates complained that reading was making it so no one had to remember things. We'd all be happier in a Bradburish 451F world where the books were gone and we didn't have them to spread malicious thoughts long after their perpetrators had been brought to justice.


Pfff, memory is an over-rated tool for the snowflakes.  If it ain't part of my lizard-brain passed down from generations then it ain't worth knowing!
 
2014-01-25 07:27:41 PM  

ChubbyTiger: marius2: This was one of the many many many reasons I went to grad school instead of continuing as a high school teacher. If the kids pass one quarter, they pass the class. Most of them knew this too. Some would go strong for the first semester and get an A and then do nothing the rest of the term, others would slack off until the last quarter (which tends to be mostly review for state exams -- the second reason I left -- and grab a decent grade then. It's ridiculous.


/Will have no problem failing kids if I need to when I'm a professor.

You may not. Your department chair or the Dean might. It's less autonomous than you might think, especially before tenure.


What kind of screwed-up department are you working in?

/Both schools I've attended have had no qualms about failing shiatty students
//May explain why the only football player I ever saw in a history class at UNC was the punter
 
2014-01-25 07:29:16 PM  
I'm not surprised that this is from South Dakota.....   This is completely racist.  And, I, for one, am disgusted by it.
 
2014-01-25 07:29:37 PM  
personal responsibility requires legislation?

/who knew!
 
2014-01-25 07:29:52 PM  
When I started 1st grade in Catholic school in 1949, and for every grade thereafter, there was never a guarantee that you would automatically cruise to the next grade. On the last day of school, when the Nun handed out the final report cards, on the back it said where you would be next year. Every once in a while, some kid would get held back, and for his own good. Nobody complained, the parents of the kid, maybe, but Mother Superior and the Monsignor set them straight, and no "law" was required.
 
2014-01-25 07:32:12 PM  
"I brought the bill at the request of my school board in Eagle Butte..."

fc03.deviantart.net
 
2014-01-25 07:32:30 PM  
UNC_Samurai:

/Both schools I've attended have had no qualms about failing shiatty students
//May explain why the only football player I ever saw in a history class at UNC was the punter


You work at UNC in the History dept? I originally had them on my list of places to apply to for PhD in Ancient History but backed off as it read like you guys were trying to scare away applicants... which I sort of understand. Though it's not as bad as the University of Virginia which just goes and states off the bat that they pretty much won't give you any funding unless the American History students have some left over.

Rereading it it doesn't seem that bad though, I'll add it to my list when I apply again (am working on a masters now to boost my CV)
 
2014-01-25 07:33:45 PM  
They want to make sure they still have GOP voters in the future. See, if they folks can read they'd find out the Bible says something different from what FOX News and the GOP are preaching. That'd be unAmerican.
 
2014-01-25 07:34:26 PM  

Propain_az: I'm not surprised that this is from South Dakota.....   This is completely racist.  And, I, for one, am disgusted by it.


Racist?  The only "racist" education program I am familiar with is "Head Start", which has been around about 50 years now, and when you look at it, is nothing more than a darn-near trillion dollar free babysitting for low income minorities. Where is the free middle class white babysitting program?
 
2014-01-25 07:35:00 PM  

rev. dave: Can't read TFA. Some posting disclaimer showed up rather than a story.


Oh, and you're not going to show off more that you can read by telling us what it said?
 
2014-01-25 07:37:58 PM  

marius2: UNC_Samurai:

/Both schools I've attended have had no qualms about failing shiatty students
//May explain why the only football player I ever saw in a history class at UNC was the punter

You work at UNC in the History dept? I originally had them on my list of places to apply to for PhD in Ancient History but backed off as it read like you guys were trying to scare away applicants... which I sort of understand. Though it's not as bad as the University of Virginia which just goes and states off the bat that they pretty much won't give you any funding unless the American History students have some left over.

Rereading it it doesn't seem that bad though, I'll add it to my list when I apply again (am working on a masters now to boost my CV)


I did my undergrad at UNC, and my master' sat East Carolina. If you were applying for ancient history, chances are you would have worked with McCoy. He was a nice guy, but was really demanding and refused to teach any class that started after 9AM.

/At ECU, none of our classes except for naval history started before 10; our faculty weren't about to teach with a hangover.
 
2014-01-25 07:38:41 PM  

johnny_vegas: personal responsibility requires legislation?

/who knew!


So you choose to read or not when you are in elementary school?
 
2014-01-25 07:40:25 PM  

Your Hind Brain: And this is a problem because?

If you can't read, maybe you're not a "good fit" for society


Decades ago, illiterate people could still usually find at least some kind of work to support themselves and maybe a small family if they were intelligent enough.

Now? You need what, a BA to get a 'sanitation' job or the like? It's ridiculous. Note that I don't mean it's ridiculous to be at least somewhat educated to collect trash, especially if there are environmental regulations to follow, but ridiculous that people are passed through without being able to read and think for themselves about what they just read.

I will say that despite this, I had some really great lab partners in my most recent college classes, but that was CIS; smart kids, not great at English but passable. I doubt the business majors are quite up to the same standard though. I got the hell out of the one class I signed up for when I realized A. I wasn't going to learn much and B. I already had credit from taking Business Law II elsewhere.
 
2014-01-25 07:40:35 PM  

Propain_az: I'm not surprised that this is from South Dakota.....   This is completely racist.  And, I, for one, am disgusted by it.


Literacy is racist?
 
2014-01-25 07:40:59 PM  

planes: Propain_az: I'm not surprised that this is from South Dakota.....   This is completely racist.  And, I, for one, am disgusted by it.

Racist?  The only "racist" education program I am familiar with is "Head Start", which has been around about 50 years now, and when you look at it, is nothing more than a darn-near trillion dollar free babysitting for low income minorities. Where is the free middle class white babysitting program?


Busy watching after the middle class kids instead of their own, which are in the free daycare centers.
 
2014-01-25 07:41:06 PM  

Yakk: johnny_vegas: personal responsibility requires legislation?

/who knew!

So you choose to read or not when you are in elementary school?


well actually I meant the parents and teachers (or administrators in some cases I imagine)

fix those and then yeah the kids need to step up
 
2014-01-25 07:42:18 PM  

planes: Propain_az: I'm not surprised that this is from South Dakota.....   This is completely racist.  And, I, for one, am disgusted by it.

Racist?  The only "racist" education program I am familiar with is "Head Start", which has been around about 50 years now, and when you look at it, is nothing more than a darn-near trillion dollar free babysitting for low income minorities. Where is the free middle class white babysitting program?


9/10. Almost.
 
2014-01-25 07:42:59 PM  
UNC_Samurai:

I did my undergrad at UNC, and my master' sat East Carolina. If you were applying for ancient history, chances are you would have worked with McCoy. He was a nice guy, but was really demanding and refused to teach any class that started after 9AM.

/At ECU, none of our classes except for naval history started before 10; our faculty weren't about to teach with a hangover.


Hah, nice! I'm at Old Dominion (Norfolk, VA) at the moment. All History grad classes are at night (either 4:00-7, or 7-10) 
I'd kill for a morning class. The theory is that most grad students are working during the day, but I work at the school so I can schedule my job around my classes, but I understand it. There's nothing worse than a class ending at 10 during finals week though. "Haven't slept in two days, been working on my paper nonstop for the past three weeks, but sure I'll listen to your presentation on London's Chimney Sweeps at 9:45"
 
2014-01-25 07:44:24 PM  

planes: Racist? The only "racist" education program I am familiar with is "Head Start", which has been around about 50 years now, and when you look at it, is nothing more than a darn-near trillion dollar free babysitting for low income minorities. Where is the free middle class white babysitting program?


My wife is a head start teacher in South Dakota so I'm getting a kick out of these replies.
 
2014-01-25 07:46:33 PM  
So, being from South Dakota, and knowing that the people dishing up are more likely to be from a less literate state, statistically, I'd like to propose people find numbers.As of 2003: http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Illiteracy_rate_by_US_state/dnrtfa//old numbers///stationed in Texas currently////god save me from these rednecks
 
2014-01-25 07:48:26 PM  

planes: Propain_az: I'm not surprised that this is from South Dakota.....   This is completely racist.  And, I, for one, am disgusted by it.

Racist?  The only "racist" education program I am familiar with is "Head Start", which has been around about 50 years now, and when you look at it, is nothing more than a darn-near trillion dollar free babysitting for low income minorities. Where is the free middle class white babysitting program?


You don't actually know what Head Start does, do you?

/that was a hypothetical question dear
//we already know your answer is "no"
 
2014-01-25 07:49:10 PM  

gar1013: pueblonative: if they're willing to put the money into getting the kids who are being socially promoted proficient, imokaywiththis.jpg.

By definition, making them repeat the grade is putting the money into getting them proficient.

The bigger issue is what should be occurring to teachers who are allowing kids to advance who aren't able to read at an acceptable level.


This is a plenty of evidence that retaining children does little good educationally

https://childandfamilypolicy.duke.edu/pdfs/pubpres/FlawedStrategy_Par t One.pdf

"The majority of published studies and decades of research
indicate that there is usually little to be gained, and much
harm that may be done through retaining students in grade."

https://childandfamilypolicy.duke.edu/pdfs/pubpres/FlawedStrategy_Par t Two.pdf

https://childandfamilypolicy.duke.edu/pdfs/pubpres/FlawedStrategy_Par t Three.pdf

and with no small cost.  Why not spend that money developing better intervention strategies and other policies that might actually address the problem?
 
2014-01-25 07:49:11 PM  

planes: Propain_az: I'm not surprised that this is from South Dakota.....   This is completely racist.  And, I, for one, am disgusted by it.

Racist?  The only "racist" education program I am familiar with is "Head Start", which has been around about 50 years now, and when you look at it, is nothing more than a darn-near trillion dollar free babysitting for low income minorities. Where is the free middle class white babysitting program?


Whats a middle class you speak of?
 
2014-01-25 07:49:17 PM  

johnny_vegas: personal responsibility requires legislation?

/who knew!


It does when state schooling is mandatory. That's why my kid is in a private school.
 
2014-01-25 07:50:02 PM  

Lsherm: Propain_az: I'm not surprised that this is from South Dakota.....   This is completely racist.  And, I, for one, am disgusted by it.

Literacy is racist?


Let's check the flowchart:
i.imgur.com

Yeah, literacy is probably racist.
 
2014-01-25 07:50:27 PM  
There must be a literacy joke in there about how I didn't preview my comment and that it ended up a jumbled mess..
 
2014-01-25 07:54:23 PM  
How do I reach these keeeeds.
 
2014-01-25 07:54:40 PM  

marius2: UNC_Samurai:

I did my undergrad at UNC, and my master' sat East Carolina. If you were applying for ancient history, chances are you would have worked with McCoy. He was a nice guy, but was really demanding and refused to teach any class that started after 9AM.

/At ECU, none of our classes except for naval history started before 10; our faculty weren't about to teach with a hangover.

Hah, nice! I'm at Old Dominion (Norfolk, VA) at the moment. All History grad classes are at night (either 4:00-7, or 7-10) 
I'd kill for a morning class. The theory is that most grad students are working during the day, but I work at the school so I can schedule my job around my classes, but I understand it. There's nothing worse than a class ending at 10 during finals week though. "Haven't slept in two days, been working on my paper nonstop for the past three weeks, but sure I'll listen to your presentation on London's Chimney Sweeps at 9:45"


We're predominantly a teacher's college, so half the history classes are at night for the MATs and CEs, while all the archaeology courses are taught right before lunch or right after a long lunch.

/underwater archaeologists are some drinkin' motherfarkers
 
2014-01-25 07:57:14 PM  

SomebodyElsesShoes: gar1013: pueblonative: if they're willing to put the money into getting the kids who are being socially promoted proficient, imokaywiththis.jpg.

By definition, making them repeat the grade is putting the money into getting them proficient.

The bigger issue is what should be occurring to teachers who are allowing kids to advance who aren't able to read at an acceptable level.

This is a plenty of evidence that retaining children does little good educationally

https://childandfamilypolicy.duke.edu/pdfs/pubpres/FlawedStrategy_Par t One.pdf

"The majority of published studies and decades of research
indicate that there is usually little to be gained, and much
harm that may be done through retaining students in grade."

https://childandfamilypolicy.duke.edu/pdfs/pubpres/FlawedStrategy_Par t Two.pdf

https://childandfamilypolicy.duke.edu/pdfs/pubpres/FlawedStrategy_Par t Three.pdf

and with no small cost.  Why not spend that money developing better intervention strategies and other policies that might actually address the problem?



Yeah, this. If a kid is doing so poorly they can't read they usually have an issue outside of school and grade retention isn't going to change that.

Holding kids back isn't really a fix or improvement over social promotion but our country has decided that as long as we keep adding on punishments to schools it will eventually force them to succeed. Like the only problem in all of education is a lack of motivation. Still, even though it isn't an improvement grade retention certainly  feels better which is what is really important to politicians.
 
2014-01-25 07:59:06 PM  
This can't possibly be racist, there's like one black family in all of South Dakota.

Also, people like to think of kids and society in general as being this one big group of people just like them. Kids who can't read are most likely suffering from a reading-related disability, not a general laziness of effort, Jesus. Have a heart.

Those kids who struggle to read include

Kids who need glasses
Kids with dyslexia
Kids with undiagnosed learning disabilities or disorders
Kids with parents who don't know how to read
Kids from volatile home situations.

Putting a child an entire year back is the cheapest solution, but it's not the best solution for that child. If a year in that grade didn't work the first time, it won't be super effective the second time. What a waste of a year. That child needs a reading specialist, not a year of retention.
 
2014-01-25 08:00:17 PM  

ladyfortuna: Your Hind Brain: And this is a problem because?

If you can't read, maybe you're not a "good fit" for society

Decades ago, illiterate people could still usually find at least some kind of work to support themselves and maybe a small family if they were intelligent enough.

Now? You need what, a BA to get a 'sanitation' job or the like? It's ridiculous. Note that I don't mean it's ridiculous to be at least somewhat educated to collect trash, especially if there are environmental regulations to follow, but ridiculous that people are passed through without being able to read and think for themselves about what they just read.

I will say that despite this, I had some really great lab partners in my most recent college classes, but that was CIS; smart kids, not great at English but passable. I doubt the business majors are quite up to the same standard though. I got the hell out of the one class I signed up for when I realized A. I wasn't going to learn much and B. I already had credit from taking Business Law II elsewhere.


You're preaching to the choir. However, you really don't necessarly need a BA for just any job, even IT. A janitor job? Fark the employer if he/she requires a BA. Seems that the biggest problem is HR needs to get over themselves. There will be an issue if you have no experience even though you have a BA. Catch farking 22.
 
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