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(SeattlePI)   Defying all medical reason and a judge's order, Fort Worth hospital considers appeal because they 'have a duty to protect the fetus'   (seattlepi.com) divider line 344
    More: Followup, Hospital considers, duty to protect, pregnancy, fetus, John Peter Smith Hospital  
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6684 clicks; posted to Main » on 25 Jan 2014 at 3:39 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-01-26 02:36:01 AM  

gibbon1: sheep snorter: Pro-life is actually Pro-birth.

These are the same people that have their frail 85 year old grandmother with advanced dementia undergo surgery and chemo for colon cancer, because 'we can't let granny die!'


No, they aren't. The people you mentioned are less evil than these farks.

There really is no other word for this. Forcing a corpse to keep a fetus "alive", against the family's wishes, purely to score political points with the anti-abortion crowd is beyond disgusting.

When these people die, burying them in a full septic tank would be too good for them.
 
2014-01-26 03:08:55 AM  

willfullyobscure: hardinparamedic: Fano:

My god, that is so meta.

[guestofaguest.com image 500x333]

You get a Hipster thumbs up, Sir.

That man is a rapist, sexual predator and serial abuser of women. You shouldn't use his picture to make jokes.


Uh Isn't that Ben Stiller?
 
2014-01-26 03:10:07 AM  
Amberleia:
I'm actually an atheist, which is at least part of the reason I think that as long as there's a chance that a fetus is viable, then the mother should be kept alive by artificial means.  Death of the fetus isn't going to result in a heavenly reunion where the mother can hold and cherish her baby, despite what people on some of the boards are saying.

Now, though, and maybe it's the pregnancy hormones, I would fight tooth and nail to prevent any harm from coming to my baby. If I had to choose between my baby's life and a few months of being kept artificially alive, I'd choose him every time.


Okay, but the fetus in this situation isn't ever going to be 'viable' in the normal sense of the word. If it is 'viable' that will mean that they are able to hook it into life support for a few months until it rots away. Its brain is a big old sack of fluid. It will never have thoughts. If it has any capacity to experience sensation through an intact brain stem, those sensations will be pain.

This woman is not on life support. She is not in a coma. She is not in a vegetative state. She is not alive. She is dead like down-in-the-morgue dead and they're doing a bunch of weird shiat to her corpse to try to slow down the rotting process, which is actually damaging ever further the brainless, highly malformed fetus. It will never be a baby. It is made out of human tissue but it will never be a baby. If you cut your arm off it is a not a new person. This clump of tissue, much like your arm, does not have and never will have a brain or any sentience.

I can understand a family member wanting to keep a comatose expectant mother on life support to try to deliver the late term baby if that was in line with her wishes, but this case doesn't have any of those things happening. The woman was dead. She had a DNR. The fetus was way to earlier to be viable, being inside a dead woman was killing it, making it even less likely to survive. Then they went and confirmed it was nonviable, and against the wishes of the woman and her family continued to subject her corpse and the soon-to-be-100%-dead clump of semi-human shaped tissue that used to be her fetus to this ghoulishness. And for what? Political crowing.
 
2014-01-26 04:05:08 AM  

lindalouwho: SilentStrider: grumpfuff: hardinparamedic: Oh god farking damnit.

This lawyer is human scum.  THERE IS NO FETUS. It is grossly deformed and it's brain is a bag of fluid. It is DEAD. She is  DEAD. Let them go in peace and the family mourn.

This.



Seconded. It's a goddamn sin to try to force this kid to be born.
 
2014-01-26 04:14:27 AM  

stoli n coke: lindalouwho: SilentStrider: grumpfuff: hardinparamedic: Oh god farking damnit.

This lawyer is human scum.  THERE IS NO FETUS. It is grossly deformed and it's brain is a bag of fluid. It is DEAD. She is  DEAD. Let them go in peace and the family mourn.

This.


Seconded. It's a goddamn sin to try to force this kid to be born.


Except (and I am only saying this because language matters), there is no kid to be born. There is a grossly deformed fetus with no reasonable expectation of viability. A corpse is gestating a far too soon to be corpse. And this is horrifying, dystopian stuff.
 
2014-01-26 06:37:34 AM  
Haven't you ever wondered why you've never seen a Tlielaxu female?
 
2014-01-26 07:28:46 AM  

Duke_leto_Atredes: As a prolife catholic, I have to say in this case close your eyes ask god to take these two into his hands and pull the plug.

  you're part of the problem.

You don't get to close your eyes.

Open them wide, and look at what your political allies have wrought.

Go on.

Either have the courage of your convictions, or change them.
 
2014-01-26 07:41:27 AM  

Truther: swaniefrmreddeer: Godf*ckingdamnit, the fetus that they said wasn't viable. Pro-lifers are the most vile people on the planet.


Almost as vile as abortion doctors and those who kill their unborn children.


Speaking of vile, remind us how many babies your god kills through miscarriage every single year.
 
2014-01-26 08:07:15 AM  

LordJiro: gibbon1: sheep snorter: Pro-life is actually Pro-birth.

These are the same people that have their frail 85 year old grandmother with advanced dementia undergo surgery and chemo for colon cancer, because 'we can't let granny die!'

No, they aren't. The people you mentioned are less evil than these farks.

There really is no other word for this. Forcing a corpse to keep a fetus "alive", against the family's wishes, purely to score political points with the anti-abortion crowd is beyond disgusting.

When these people die, burying them in a full septic tank would be too good for them.


Why wait until they're dead?
 
2014-01-26 09:42:37 AM  

Amberleia: UseLessHuman: Hubris.  They are so bound to the concept that they are special and that God has a special plan for THEM that to believe that every fetus may not be a God's special snowflake for whom miracles occur would force them to believe that perhaps THEY are not God's special snowflake for whom miracles will occur.  The mind recoils and they start insisting on having dead women bear dead fetuses in a vain attempt to make the world fit their own preconceived notions allowing them to remain safe within their own ignorant certitude.  Hubris.

I'm actually an atheist, which is at least part of the reason I think that as long as there's a chance that a fetus is viable, then the mother should be kept alive by artificial means.  Death of the fetus isn't going to result in a heavenly reunion where the mother can hold and cherish her baby, despite what people on some of the boards are saying.

Also, I keep asking myself what I would want if it were me in that position. While under normal circumstances, I wouldn't choose life support, I would right now. I would want to give my unborn child every opportunity to have a life. It's odd in a way, as I had never planned on having biological children. I've provided foster care to hard-to-place kids and have hopes of adopting. I always figured that I could do more good taking in these unwanted kids and providing them a safe and loving home than I could by adding one more person to the mess that we call home.  Now, though, and maybe it's the pregnancy hormones, I would fight tooth and nail to prevent any harm from coming to my baby. If I had to choose between my baby's life and a few months of being kept artificially alive, I'd choose him every time.


What you would want in her position is... Nothing, because you would be clinically braindead and therefore almost certainly incapable of forming thoughts, needs, wants, and desires.

On the other hand, if you were the fetus itself, you'd want... Nothing, because scans have shown your brain hasn't formed successfully and you are therefore almost certainly incapable of forming thoughts, needs, wants, and desires.
 
2014-01-26 09:53:47 AM  
So one man's judgment (the judge) outweighs the judgment of the many (legislature)? Let the judge come down and pull the plug.
 
2014-01-26 10:01:07 AM  

Mean Daddy: So one man's judgment (the judge) outweighs the judgment of the many (legislature)? Let the judge come down and pull the plug.


Needs more stupid. Don't hold back next time.
 
2014-01-26 10:05:55 AM  

Amberleia: UseLessHuman: Hubris.  They are so bound to the concept that they are special and that God has a special plan for THEM that to believe that every fetus may not be a God's special snowflake for whom miracles occur would force them to believe that perhaps THEY are not God's special snowflake for whom miracles will occur.  The mind recoils and they start insisting on having dead women bear dead fetuses in a vain attempt to make the world fit their own preconceived notions allowing them to remain safe within their own ignorant certitude.  Hubris.

I'm actually an atheist, which is at least part of the reason I think that as long as there's a chance that a fetus is viable, then the mother should be kept alive by artificial means.  Death of the fetus isn't going to result in a heavenly reunion where the mother can hold and cherish her baby, despite what people on some of the boards are saying.

Also, I keep asking myself what I would want if it were me in that position. While under normal circumstances, I wouldn't choose life support, I would right now. I would want to give my unborn child every opportunity to have a life. It's odd in a way, as I had never planned on having biological children. I've provided foster care to hard-to-place kids and have hopes of adopting. I always figured that I could do more good taking in these unwanted kids and providing them a safe and loving home than I could by adding one more person to the mess that we call home.  Now, though, and maybe it's the pregnancy hormones, I would fight tooth and nail to prevent any harm from coming to my baby. If I had to choose between my baby's life and a few months of being kept artificially alive, I'd choose him every time.


IT ISN'T EVEN REMOTELY VIABLE YOU FARKWIT! END OF FARKING STORY!
 
2014-01-26 11:36:00 AM  

MeanJean: Amberleia: UseLessHuman: Hubris.  They are so bound to the concept that they are special and that God has a special plan for THEM that to believe that every fetus may not be a God's special snowflake for whom miracles occur would force them to believe that perhaps THEY are not God's special snowflake for whom miracles will occur.  The mind recoils and they start insisting on having dead women bear dead fetuses in a vain attempt to make the world fit their own preconceived notions allowing them to remain safe within their own ignorant certitude.  Hubris.

I'm actually an atheist, which is at least part of the reason I think that as long as there's a chance that a fetus is viable, then the mother should be kept alive by artificial means.  Death of the fetus isn't going to result in a heavenly reunion where the mother can hold and cherish her baby, despite what people on some of the boards are saying.

Also, I keep asking myself what I would want if it were me in that position. While under normal circumstances, I wouldn't choose life support, I would right now. I would want to give my unborn child every opportunity to have a life. It's odd in a way, as I had never planned on having biological children. I've provided foster care to hard-to-place kids and have hopes of adopting. I always figured that I could do more good taking in these unwanted kids and providing them a safe and loving home than I could by adding one more person to the mess that we call home.  Now, though, and maybe it's the pregnancy hormones, I would fight tooth and nail to prevent any harm from coming to my baby. If I had to choose between my baby's life and a few months of being kept artificially alive, I'd choose him every time.

IT ISN'T EVEN REMOTELY VIABLE YOU FARKWIT! END OF FARKING STORY!


I find it amusing that this moran is arguing in terms of what she would want while ignoring the fact that this entire debacle is happening because of the hospital ignoring what this woman and her family wanted.
 
2014-01-26 11:53:35 AM  

The My Little Pony Killer: I find it amusing that this moran is arguing in terms of what she would want while ignoring the fact that this entire debacle is happening because of the hospital ignoring what this woman and her family wanted.


The only consolation in this case, and the Jahi case is that people are talking about it.  People are letting their families and loved ones how they would want to be treated.
 
2014-01-26 12:01:51 PM  

The My Little Pony Killer: I find it amusing that this moran is arguing in terms of what she would want while ignoring the fact that this entire debacle is happening because of the hospital ignoring what this woman and her family wanted.


Meh, I remember being pregnant. The hormones really do mess with your thinking, especially when it comes to anything involving babies and children. I remember one time I found a nest of hundreds of teeny tiny little baby spiders in my basement. I HATE spiders! Normally I would want to kill them with fire just to be sure. But pregnant... I couldn't touch them. They were horrible spiders which I hate. Hundreds. In my HOUSE. But they were spider BABIES. So I left them alone. Completely and totally irrational of me. Nuts, even. But pregnancy hormones and rational thought do not go hand.

So I'm giving a bit of a pass on this one for the hormones. I probably would have had to totally ignore it if it happened when I was pregnant - it would have made me nuts.
 
2014-01-26 12:03:12 PM  

namegoeshere: do not go hand.


IN HAND
 
2014-01-26 12:24:34 PM  

namegoeshere: The My Little Pony Killer: I find it amusing that this moran is arguing in terms of what she would want while ignoring the fact that this entire debacle is happening because of the hospital ignoring what this woman and her family wanted.

Meh, I remember being pregnant. The hormones really do mess with your thinking, especially when it comes to anything involving babies and children. I remember one time I found a nest of hundreds of teeny tiny little baby spiders in my basement. I HATE spiders! Normally I would want to kill them with fire just to be sure. But pregnant... I couldn't touch them. They were horrible spiders which I hate. Hundreds. In my HOUSE. But they were spider BABIES. So I left them alone. Completely and totally irrational of me. Nuts, even. But pregnancy hormones and rational thought do not go hand.

So I'm giving a bit of a pass on this one for the hormones. I probably would have had to totally ignore it if it happened when I was pregnant - it would have made me nuts.


I'm not going to give somebody a pass on supporting inhumane treatment of a course based on how hormonal they may or may not be feeling.

And her post made it sound like she was referring to hypothetical pregnancy hormones, not actual ones. She's also arguing that she would have wanted it a particular way, therefore this person and family who have already stated that they do not want it this way should just have to deal. Inexcusable.
 
2014-01-26 12:56:35 PM  
Reportedly the hospital will not be appealing.

The "Save Baby Munoz" protests may be interesting, in a morbid sense.
 
2014-01-26 01:01:02 PM  

The My Little Pony Killer: namegoeshere: The My Little Pony Killer: I find it amusing that this moran is arguing in terms of what she would want while ignoring the fact that this entire debacle is happening because of the hospital ignoring what this woman and her family wanted.

Meh, I remember being pregnant. The hormones really do mess with your thinking, especially when it comes to anything involving babies and children. I remember one time I found a nest of hundreds of teeny tiny little baby spiders in my basement. I HATE spiders! Normally I would want to kill them with fire just to be sure. But pregnant... I couldn't touch them. They were horrible spiders which I hate. Hundreds. In my HOUSE. But they were spider BABIES. So I left them alone. Completely and totally irrational of me. Nuts, even. But pregnancy hormones and rational thought do not go hand.

So I'm giving a bit of a pass on this one for the hormones. I probably would have had to totally ignore it if it happened when I was pregnant - it would have made me nuts.

I'm not going to give somebody a pass on supporting inhumane treatment of a course based on how hormonal they may or may not be feeling.

And her post made it sound like she was referring to hypothetical pregnancy hormones, not actual ones. She's also arguing that she would have wanted it a particular way, therefore this person and family who have already stated that they do not want it this way should just have to deal. Inexcusable.


I'm starting to think this is is some master trolling.

Nobody could ACTUALLY sincerely think they would want their corpse re-animated to gestate a non-viable grossly malformed thing. And nobody would ACTUALLY sincerely think that the wishes of the entire line of next-of-kin should be blatantly, horrifically disobeyed. Nobodu would ACTUALLY sincerely want the whole world to know their corpse was being desecrated...violated.
 
2014-01-26 01:01:58 PM  

pinguwin: oukewldave: How long until a family member says " enough of this shiat" and grabs a gun, goes to the hospital and pulls the plug themself?

Many years ago, think 1970's, this happened, possibly in Illinois but not certain.  A boy was on a ventilator after choking on a balloon and had no chance of recovery.  The father went to court to disconnect, hospital fought him on it.  Father went to hospital with a gun told everyone to leave and he disconnected the boy and held him in his arms.  Father was arrested but a grand jury declined to indict.


1989, actually.



Link
 
2014-01-26 01:24:39 PM  
Yep, the hospital is going to obey the ruling.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/01/26/marlise-munoz_n_4669990.htm l? ncid=edlinkusaolp00000003


May that poor family finally have peace, and may those hospital administrators and legal advisors never know peace again.
 
2014-01-26 01:29:57 PM  

ravenlore: Yep, the hospital is going to obey the ruling.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/01/26/marlise-munoz_n_4669990.htm l? ncid=edlinkusaolp00000003


May that poor family finally have peace, and may those hospital administrators and legal advisors never know peace again.


I am so very tempted to add  Ken yehi ratson to that, but I won't.
 
2014-01-26 01:31:02 PM  

ravenlore: The My Little Pony Killer: namegoeshere: The My Little Pony Killer: I find it amusing that this moran is arguing in terms of what she would want while ignoring the fact that this entire debacle is happening because of the hospital ignoring what this woman and her family wanted.

Meh, I remember being pregnant. The hormones really do mess with your thinking, especially when it comes to anything involving babies and children. I remember one time I found a nest of hundreds of teeny tiny little baby spiders in my basement. I HATE spiders! Normally I would want to kill them with fire just to be sure. But pregnant... I couldn't touch them. They were horrible spiders which I hate. Hundreds. In my HOUSE. But they were spider BABIES. So I left them alone. Completely and totally irrational of me. Nuts, even. But pregnancy hormones and rational thought do not go hand.

So I'm giving a bit of a pass on this one for the hormones. I probably would have had to totally ignore it if it happened when I was pregnant - it would have made me nuts.

I'm not going to give somebody a pass on supporting inhumane treatment of a course based on how hormonal they may or may not be feeling.

And her post made it sound like she was referring to hypothetical pregnancy hormones, not actual ones. She's also arguing that she would have wanted it a particular way, therefore this person and family who have already stated that they do not want it this way should just have to deal. Inexcusable.

I'm starting to think this is is some master trolling.

Nobody could ACTUALLY sincerely think they would want their corpse re-animated to gestate a non-viable grossly malformed thing. And nobody would ACTUALLY sincerely think that the wishes of the entire line of next-of-kin should be blatantly, horrifically disobeyed. Nobodu would ACTUALLY sincerely want the whole world to know their corpse was being desecrated...violated.


i read it as pointing out how the actual law that was misapplied isn't really to blame here either.  that even someone who does not wish to be put on life-support might, in fact, wish to be kept alive so that their child could be born...  and that in the middle of the flurry of other "newly-expecting parent" changes, they MIGHT not think about changing their directive to include that particular scenario.

i don't think it sounds like they're defending what the hospital did, though... just that the practice of keeping LIVING women alive regardless of dnr orders shouldn't be lumped in with whatever the heck this hospital thought it was doing...

dunno.  i'm a big dune fan myself, but only as science FICTION...

also, i hope the judge who ordered the life support removed also has the option to order the hospital to eat the costs they ran up while causing this nightmare...
 
2014-01-26 01:55:17 PM  
Unplug her and bury her in a micmac burial ground like an unholy turducken for the wendigo to take. Louis Creed will have a blast, since he could barely handle a toddler.
 
2014-01-26 02:10:28 PM  
What's stopping the husband from going oopsie?
s7.postimg.org
 
2014-01-26 02:10:52 PM  
ABC News is reporting that Ms. Munoz has been removed from life support.
 
2014-01-26 02:23:12 PM  

Lord Farkwad: What's stopping the husband from going oopsie?
[s7.postimg.org image 640x400]


1) Battery backup.

2) "Life" support has already been removed.
 
2014-01-26 03:30:18 PM  

blugenes: I am not a lawyer, but I wonder if that could be construed as practicing medicine without a license?


Disclaimer: I work in transport/prehospital medicine, so my understanding might be a little off of how this works, but:

The Joint Commission, the big guys which determine whether a hospital can be accredited or not and participate in Medicare, require an ethics committee for certain things, including removal of life support when a patient is believed to be brain dead. That's how the legal counsel for the hospital got involved.

From what I understand, the DA/Lawyer for the hospital got a judicial order to block the removal of life support by arguing that law applied here.
 
2014-01-26 03:46:26 PM  
BizarreMan:

The only consolation in this case, and the Jahi case is that people are talking about it.  People are letting their families and loved ones how they would want to be treated.

She made her wishes very clear. The hospital chose to ignore them.
 
2014-01-26 03:51:13 PM  

MeanJean: She made her wishes very clear. The hospital chose to ignore them.


Not only that, but made them a national spectacle for the anti-abortion religious right.

In the Jahi case, the family themselves used it for media exposure and attention.
 
2014-01-26 04:01:46 PM  
 
2014-01-26 04:09:01 PM  

DebinCO: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/01/26/marlise-munoz_n_4669990.html

It's over.


I hope a high powered attorney offers his services to this family pro bono so they OWN that hospital and rename it after her. Disgusting it has gone on this long.
 
2014-01-26 04:25:41 PM  
Sadly nobody on the pro-corpse-incubator side thinks they did anything wrong here.
 
2014-01-26 04:28:55 PM  

freetomato: DebinCO: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/01/26/marlise-munoz_n_4669990.html

It's over.

I hope a high powered attorney offers his services to this family pro bono so they OWN that hospital and rename it after her. Disgusting it has gone on this long.


Nah, they'll be awarded court costs, too.
 
2014-01-26 04:29:03 PM  

Farking Canuck: Sadly nobody on the pro-corpse-incubator side thinks they did anything wrong here.


No, a few of the local news facebook feeds are coming across mine now thanks to some flight medic friends I have in East Texas. The comments are appalling. They legitimately believe this fetus was murdered.
 
2014-01-26 05:39:34 PM  

hardinparamedic: Farking Canuck: Sadly nobody on the pro-corpse-incubator side thinks they did anything wrong here.

No, a few of the local news facebook feeds are coming across mine now thanks to some flight medic friends I have in East Texas. The comments are appalling. They legitimately believe this fetus was murdered.


I'm sorry, I'm  a bit murky on this...  Are folks believing the fetus was murdered by the chemicals being administered to Ms. Munoz, or is it that they're believing the fetus was murdered by support removal?
 
2014-01-26 05:49:02 PM  

ravenlore: Are folks believing the fetus was murdered by the chemicals being administered to Ms. Munoz, or is it that they're believing the fetus was murdered by support removal?


By removing the ventilator.
 
2014-01-26 06:01:58 PM  

DebinCO: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/01/26/marlise-munoz_n_4669990.html

It's over.


About farking time. I hope the hospital's up for the legal ass-reaming they're about to receive for their actions.
 
2014-01-26 06:34:17 PM  

hardinparamedic: ravenlore: Are folks believing the fetus was murdered by the chemicals being administered to Ms. Munoz, or is it that they're believing the fetus was murdered by support removal?

By removing the ventilator.


If only it were painful to be that stupid. :-(
 
2014-01-26 06:46:33 PM  

ravenlore: hardinparamedic: ravenlore: Are folks believing the fetus was murdered by the chemicals being administered to Ms. Munoz, or is it that they're believing the fetus was murdered by support removal?

By removing the ventilator.

If only it were painful to be that stupid. :-(


One of my favorite insults:

"If stupid were painful, they'd name a drug after you."

Seems eerily apt here. For the hospital administrator. Replace "stupid" with "evil."
 
2014-01-26 06:53:36 PM  
 
2014-01-26 06:57:00 PM  

hardinparamedic: iq_in_binary: Seems eerily apt here. For the hospital administrator. Replace "stupid" with "evil."

It's worse than that.The lawyer that represented the hospital is a prolific and well-known anti-choice attorney that is active with the anti-abortion movement on a national stage.

Which opens up the frightening and sickening possibility this was ALL done just to further his agenda.


I had known that when I made that joke.

That's why a certain razor didn't apply to this guy, and why I said replace stupid with evil.

Yeah I want this guy lined up against a wall and summarily shot. Repeatedly. Start with the extremity joints and work in. 15 rounds later you should eventually hit center of mass. Just be sure to take 10 minute breaks between shots.

/Should probably nail him up to the wall so he doesn't fall down after you shoot him in the wrist, though
 
2014-01-26 07:05:40 PM  

DebinCO: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/01/26/marlise-munoz_n_4669990.html

It's over.


Until the hospital sends the husband a bill.
 
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