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(SeattlePI)   Defying all medical reason and a judge's order, Fort Worth hospital considers appeal because they 'have a duty to protect the fetus'   ( seattlepi.com) divider line
    More: Followup, Hospital considers, duty to protect, pregnancy, fetus, John Peter Smith Hospital  
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6729 clicks; posted to Main » on 25 Jan 2014 at 3:39 PM (3 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



343 Comments     (+0 »)
 
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest
 
2014-01-25 02:19:22 PM  
Godf*ckingdamnit, the fetus that they said wasn't viable. Pro-lifers are the most vile people on the planet.
 
2014-01-25 02:21:27 PM  
Not Houston, subby, and there's really no news here that's different from what we knew yesterday.
 
2014-01-25 02:24:44 PM  
Fort Worth is a long way from Houston subby.
 
2014-01-25 02:24:45 PM  
Oh god farking damnit.

This lawyer is human scum.  THERE IS NO FETUS. It is grossly deformed and it's brain is a bag of fluid. It is DEAD. She is  DEAD. Let them go in peace and the family mourn.
 
2014-01-25 02:26:39 PM  

The Italian Farker: Fort Worth is a long way from Houston subby.


DrBenway: Not Houston, subby, and there's really no news here that's different from what we knew yesterday.


Oh. I see this has been taken care of, so ...

/awkward
 
2014-01-25 02:28:20 PM  

hardinparamedic: Oh god farking damnit.

This lawyer is human scum.  THERE IS NO FETUS. It is grossly deformed and it's brain is a bag of fluid. It is DEAD. She is  DEAD. Let them go in peace and the family mourn.

 
2014-01-25 02:29:38 PM  
This is like some creepy axotl tank level shiat right here

Can she make the spice?
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2014-01-25 02:41:49 PM  
I'm guessing that they aren't volunteering to pick up the tab for the hospital stay.

And what do they plan to do with it anyway?   If they can keep a dead body from decomposing by keeping the organs going how long are they going to keep it?  I guess they could transplant in some new organs when the original ones give out.  The way medical science keeps progressing they could keep it going for thousands of years.

Sort of like King Tut, but all high tech and stuff.  Maybe they can charge admission.
 
2014-01-25 02:44:23 PM  

vpb: I'm guessing that they aren't volunteering to pick up the tab for the hospital stay.


As I understand it, the chief legal counsel for the hospital is actually a prominent Anti-abortion attorney, and one of the people who helped draft the law in Texas that they are referring to when refusing to remove this poor woman's body from the ventilator. So they're basically using this woman as a "pro-life" martyr.

The thing about it is, if they are found to have misapplied or even blatantly lied to the family in the application of this law, the county is liable on the tune of millions of dollars to the family for negligence, malpractice, and even illegal human experimentation for what they have done here.
 
2014-01-25 03:01:34 PM  

grumpfuff: hardinparamedic: Oh god farking damnit.

This lawyer is human scum.  THERE IS NO FETUS. It is grossly deformed and it's brain is a bag of fluid. It is DEAD. She is  DEAD. Let them go in peace and the family mourn.

 
vpb [TotalFark]
2014-01-25 03:02:09 PM  
hardinparamedic:

The thing about it is, if they are found to have misapplied or even blatantly lied to the family in the application of this law, the county is liable on the tune of millions of dollars to the family for negligence, malpractice, and even illegal human experimentation for what they have done here.

It's Texas, so I'm guessing that's not much of a worry.
 
2014-01-25 03:05:56 PM  

vpb: hardinparamedic:

The thing about it is, if they are found to have misapplied or even blatantly lied to the family in the application of this law, the county is liable on the tune of millions of dollars to the family for negligence, malpractice, and even illegal human experimentation for what they have done here.

It's Texas, so I'm guessing that's not much of a worry.


TORT REFORM
 
2014-01-25 03:06:15 PM  
They only want to keep the fetus alive in the hopes that it will grow up to vote Republican.
 
2014-01-25 03:08:30 PM  
This is a horrifying abuse of authority.  And an excellent example of the results of letting religious nutters apply their absolutism to the population at large.  Hopefully this will backfire on them.
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2014-01-25 03:10:13 PM  

SilentStrider: They only want to keep the fetus alive in the hopes that it will grow up to vote Republican.


I don't think that's a requirement in Texas.  They just need to get it an ID card.
 
2014-01-25 03:14:37 PM  

JasonOfOrillia: This is a horrifying abuse of authority.  And an excellent example of the results of letting religious nutters apply their absolutism to the population at large.  Hopefully this will backfire on them.


And since the hospital is owned by the county, your tax dollars are paying for it!
 
2014-01-25 03:18:51 PM  

hardinparamedic: The thing about it is, if they are found to have misapplied or even blatantly lied to the family in the application of this law, the county is liable on the tune of millions of dollars to the family for negligence, malpractice, and even illegal human experimentation for what they have done here.


I strongly question the medical ethics of what they are doing, but I'm not sure I follow your legal reasoning here on those three things. Wasn't this woman brain dead on arrival to the hospital? I was unaware of any allegations of malpractice leading to her condition as it is now.
 
2014-01-25 03:21:41 PM  

Nabb1: hardinparamedic: The thing about it is, if they are found to have misapplied or even blatantly lied to the family in the application of this law, the county is liable on the tune of millions of dollars to the family for negligence, malpractice, and even illegal human experimentation for what they have done here.

I strongly question the medical ethics of what they are doing, but I'm not sure I follow your legal reasoning here on those three things. Wasn't this woman brain dead on arrival to the hospital? I was unaware of any allegations of malpractice leading to her condition as it is now.


I thought I read that they defied a DNR to keep her alive? That sounds illegal to me, but IANAL.
 
2014-01-25 03:23:51 PM  

Nabb1: Wasn't this woman brain dead on arrival to the hospital? I was unaware of any allegations of malpractice leading to her condition as it is now.


They intentionally defied a legal and valid advanced directive without the consent of the family for no defensible reason. Even the courts have said that their argument under Texas Law was misapplied and poorly interpreted.
 
2014-01-25 03:27:23 PM  

hardinparamedic: Nabb1: Wasn't this woman brain dead on arrival to the hospital? I was unaware of any allegations of malpractice leading to her condition as it is now.

They intentionally defied a legal and valid advanced directive without the consent of the family for no defensible reason. Even the courts have said that their argument under Texas Law was misapplied and poorly interpreted.


I don't see how they are on the hook for that if their assertion of that argument was not frivolous. Has the court sanctioned them or said it was a frivolous argument?
 
2014-01-25 03:28:46 PM  

cameroncrazy1984: I thought I read that they defied a DNR to keep her alive? That sounds illegal to me, but IANAL.


There was no DNR.  But there is the express wishes of her next kin (husband) and her family.  Too bad she couldn't have gone to the hospital in Oakland, and Jahi McMath come to this hospital.  Then everything would be right


.

vpb: SilentStrider: They only want to keep the fetus alive in the hopes that it will grow up to vote Republican.

I don't think that's a requirement in Texas.  They just need to get it an ID card.


With a last name like Munoz do they really expect it to vote Republican?

/Yea I know...thatsracist.jpg
 
2014-01-25 03:29:08 PM  

Nabb1: I don't see how they are on the hook for that if their assertion of that argument was not frivolous. Has the court sanctioned them or said it was a frivolous argument?


As I understand the court ruling that was handed down instructing them to take her off life support, the court said the law was grossly misinterpreted.
 
2014-01-25 03:34:07 PM  
Keep going, clearly no one will think poorly of pro-lifers after this!

/damn it so much
//please give some closure
 
2014-01-25 03:36:40 PM  
It's an amazing coincidence that this particular circumstance, happening at a county hospital, in a state that had recently implemented misdirected right-to-life laws, and in such an astounding manner showing the absurdity of the application of extreme anti-abortion measures.

It's almost as if this scenario was part of some intelligent grand design.
 
2014-01-25 03:37:14 PM  

hardinparamedic: Nabb1: I don't see how they are on the hook for that if their assertion of that argument was not frivolous. Has the court sanctioned them or said it was a frivolous argument?

As I understand the court ruling that was handed down instructing them to take her off life support, the court said the law was grossly misinterpreted.


Okay. I see. Ethically, I don't agree with the hospital. I just don't know enough about this particular case to really know if their actions give rise to other claims. And that is not to say I doubt it or anything. I mean I legitimately have barely a faint idea one way or the other.
 
2014-01-25 03:38:31 PM  

vpb: SilentStrider: They only want to keep the fetus alive in the hopes that it will grow up to vote Republican.

I don't think that's a requirement in Texas.  They just need to get it an ID card.


vpb: hardinparamedic:

The thing about it is, if they are found to have misapplied or even blatantly lied to the family in the application of this law, the county is liable on the tune of millions of dollars to the family for negligence, malpractice, and even illegal human experimentation for what they have done here.

It's Texas, so I'm guessing that's not much of a worry.


Says the guy from Florida.
 
2014-01-25 03:43:45 PM  

Nabb1: Okay. I see. Ethically, I don't agree with the hospital. I just don't know enough about this particular case to really know if their actions give rise to other claims. And that is not to say I doubt it or anything. I mean I legitimately have barely a faint idea one way or the other.


So why comment arguing the other way?
 
2014-01-25 03:43:45 PM  
The wrath of the forced-birthers strike again.
 
2014-01-25 03:44:37 PM  
What are these fundie sickos going to do? Stand around a wheezing ball of twisted flesh after it's born from an artificially-animated corpse and sing "Yes, Jesus loves me" while it gurgles and yowls itself to death?

I just don't see the slightest thing holy about this at all.

Religion that is used to dominate people instead of comfort them shouldn't be a Constitutional right.
 
2014-01-25 03:45:56 PM  

hardinparamedic: Nabb1: I don't see how they are on the hook for that if their assertion of that argument was not frivolous. Has the court sanctioned them or said it was a frivolous argument?

As I understand the court ruling that was handed down instructing them to take her off life support, the court said the law was grossly misinterpreted.



Even the guy who wrote the law said it was being misinterpreted.
 
2014-01-25 03:46:06 PM  
Well, they obviously feel it's fortworth it.

/......got nothing.....
 
2014-01-25 03:46:08 PM  

SilentStrider: grumpfuff: hardinparamedic: Oh god farking damnit.

This lawyer is human scum.  THERE IS NO FETUS. It is grossly deformed and it's brain is a bag of fluid. It is DEAD. She is  DEAD. Let them go in peace and the family mourn.


This.
 
2014-01-25 03:46:11 PM  
C'mon now, we have to be fair to the hospital. The judge's order was too vague, the hospital just need to be sure which brain-dead broad to unplug.

/Naw, they're just scummy pricks who are milking this shiat against the family's wishes
 
2014-01-25 03:46:35 PM  

hardinparamedic: JasonOfOrillia: This is a horrifying abuse of authority.  And an excellent example of the results of letting religious nutters apply their absolutism to the population at large.  Hopefully this will backfire on them.

And since the hospital is owned by the county, your tax dollars are paying for it!


And since the Tarrant County DA's office is defending the hospital, taxpayers are paying for the legal bills too. And the eventual (large) settlement against the hospital, DA's office, and county.
 
2014-01-25 03:47:21 PM  
Their reason originally was to stay in line with state law. State Judge decrees that removal of life support should go forward. I don't see the problem here, unless there's some fantasy about being brought to some sort of trial for following a judge's orders. And then were in Kafka.
 
2014-01-25 03:47:52 PM  

BizarreMan: There was no DNR. But there is the express wishes of her next kin (husband) and her family. Too bad she couldn't have gone to the hospital in Oakland, and Jahi McMath come to this hospital. Then everything would be right


If you think they'd be treating the body of a black girl who isn't pregnant the same way they're treating this woman, I've got a bridge to sell you.
 
2014-01-25 03:49:04 PM  

RsquaredW: Nabb1: Okay. I see. Ethically, I don't agree with the hospital. I just don't know enough about this particular case to really know if their actions give rise to other claims. And that is not to say I doubt it or anything. I mean I legitimately have barely a faint idea one way or the other.

So why comment arguing the other way?


It's a good way to get a very in depth explanation. That's one of the reasons I keep coming back here despite the BS and trolls. There are some very informed people here.
 
2014-01-25 03:49:58 PM  
WOMEN ARE NOT AXLOTL TANKS
 
2014-01-25 03:50:22 PM  
Just Terry Sciavo this barbarism and get it over with.
 
2014-01-25 03:50:43 PM  

hardinparamedic: vpb: I'm guessing that they aren't volunteering to pick up the tab for the hospital stay.

As I understand it, the chief legal counsel for the hospital is actually a prominent Anti-abortion attorney, and one of the people who helped draft the law in Texas that they are referring to when refusing to remove this poor woman's body from the ventilator. So they're basically using this woman as a "pro-life" martyr.

The thing about it is, if they are found to have misapplied or even blatantly lied to the family in the application of this law, the county is liable on the tune of millions of dollars to the family for negligence, malpractice, and even illegal human experimentation for what they have done here.


1.bp.blogspot.comView Full Size
 
2014-01-25 03:50:46 PM  
I take it the pro lifers aren't jumping at the bit to take responsibility for this non viable fetus if it is born?
 
2014-01-25 03:51:28 PM  

TV's Vinnie: What are these fundie sickos going to do? Stand around a wheezing ball of twisted flesh after it's born from an artificially-animated corpse and sing "Yes, Jesus loves me" while it gurgles and yowls itself to death?

I just don't see the slightest thing holy about this at all.

Religion that is used to dominate people instead of comfort them shouldn't be a Constitutional right.


I think I saw that movie. Didn't the baby end up living in a basket and eating people? I remember it had tits. The movie, not the baby.
 
2014-01-25 03:52:19 PM  

Gergesa: I take it the pro lifers aren't jumping at the bit to take responsibility for this non viable fetus if it is born?


Nah, that sounds like something Christ would do.
 
2014-01-25 03:52:49 PM  
4.bp.blogspot.comView Full Size
 
2014-01-25 03:53:23 PM  
I stand by my original impression of greed whilst desperately ciying dynastic protection law.
 
2014-01-25 03:54:23 PM  
But, they get to use the machine that goes "BING"!!
 
2014-01-25 03:54:55 PM  

RsquaredW: Nabb1: Okay. I see. Ethically, I don't agree with the hospital. I just don't know enough about this particular case to really know if their actions give rise to other claims. And that is not to say I doubt it or anything. I mean I legitimately have barely a faint idea one way or the other.

So why comment arguing the other way?


Asking someone to elaborate on an assertion of a legal cause of action is "arguing the other way"?
 
2014-01-25 03:55:48 PM  
The hospital can probably cover their budget shortfall if they can drag this out a couple of weeks. Imagine what the daily bill is.
 
2014-01-25 03:55:49 PM  
I bet, at the end of this ordeal, they still try to stick Mr. Munoz with the bill.
 
2014-01-25 03:56:47 PM  

vpb: I'm guessing that they aren't volunteering to pick up the tab for the hospital stay.

And what do they plan to do with it anyway?   If they can keep a dead body from decomposing by keeping the organs going how long are they going to keep it?  I guess they could transplant in some new organs when the original ones give out.  The way medical science keeps progressing they could keep it going for thousands of years.

Sort of like King Tut, but all high tech and stuff.  Maybe they can charge admission.


img.fark.netView Full Size


Helps if I quote the right post
 
2014-01-25 03:57:28 PM  

Stile4aly: WOMEN ARE NOT AXLOTL TANKS


Clearly we are making progress towards that goal though.
 
2014-01-25 03:57:44 PM  

Gergesa: I take it the pro lifers aren't jumping at the bit to take responsibility for this non viable fetus if it is born?


Can she even go into labor? Is the fetus even growing?

Animating a corpse to give birth to a corpse is nothing but ghoulish.
 
2014-01-25 03:57:54 PM  

JasonOfOrillia: This is a horrifying abuse of authority.  And an excellent example of the results of letting religious nutters apply their absolutism to the population at large.  Hopefully this will backfire on them.


I think the law was meant to protect Simba from Jafar. Not a religious thing. A greed thing.
 
2014-01-25 03:58:56 PM  

Nabb1: Okay. I see. Ethically, I don't agree with the hospital. I just don't know enough about this particular case to really know if their actions give rise to other claims. And that is not to say I doubt it or anything. I mean I legitimately have barely a faint idea one way or the other.


I've been following this pretty closely since both the deceased and her husband were Paramedics, and any updates in the case are pretty hot button topics on the EMS forums.

By following, I mean the events are enough to make you physically ill. Given that Texas Gave us the Winkler County scandal, though, it's not surprising.
 
2014-01-25 03:59:21 PM  

wildcardjack: Their reason originally was to stay in line with state law. State Judge decrees that removal of life support should go forward. I don't see the problem here, unless there's some fantasy about being brought to some sort of trial for following a judge's orders. And then were in Kafka.


It's kinda mind boggling, to be honest. This is weird ass creepy SciFi type shiat here. Basically the Bene Tleilax from Dune converting dead women into breeding axlotl tanks, or on par with the Cylon breeding farms that hooked women up to life support machines.

What comes next? Parents pay someone to mount up on their brain-dead kid' s warm corpse to impregnate it? Or hubby keeps dead wife plugged in at home for some sexy times for farked up baby making?

shiat, Texas, don't pussy out halfway if you're so hardcore about this. Just cut the dead woman's womb out of her already and hook it up for your sick twisted farking experiments. Clearly, not like they respect or give the slightest shiat about her as a person anyway.

/WTF, Texas
//You used to be cool
 
2014-01-25 03:59:40 PM  

hardinparamedic: JasonOfOrillia: This is a horrifying abuse of authority.  And an excellent example of the results of letting religious nutters apply their absolutism to the population at large.  Hopefully this will backfire on them.

And since the hospital is owned by the county, your tax dollars are paying for it!


I'd be happy to have my tax dollars applied were the fetus viable and with the consent of the mother (prior obviously) and family.  Of course none of these factors apply here.

/and these are the same folks who don't want our tax dollars to pay for food stamps - FOOD STAMPS for farks sake
 
2014-01-25 03:59:54 PM  
Carry it to term, deliver it, and have lots of video and photos of the abomination for the world to see.
 
2014-01-25 03:59:56 PM  
It takes a very arrogant person to make decisions like this.
 
2014-01-25 04:00:23 PM  

TV's Vinnie: What are these fundie sickos going to do? Stand around a wheezing ball of twisted flesh after it's born from an artificially-animated corpse and sing "Yes, Jesus loves me" while it gurgles and yowls itself to death?



Sick as that is that may be the best possible outcome.  It's harder to spew pro-life nonsense with a hideously deformed DOA baby being born.  It might actually drive it through some skulls that this is stupid and wrong.
 
2014-01-25 04:00:56 PM  

Gergesa: I take it the pro lifers aren't jumping at the bit to take responsibility for this non viable fetus if it is born?


Letting her go doesn't even count as abortion.  She's gone, the baby's gone, so at some point accept it and move on.

SilentStrider: grumpfuff: hardinparamedic:

This lawyer is human scum.  THERE IS NO FETUS. It is grossly deformed and it's brain is a bag of fluid. It is DEAD. She is  DEAD. Let them go in peace and the family mourn.

 
2014-01-25 04:01:20 PM  

Gergesa: I take it the pro lifers aren't jumping at the bit to take responsibility for this non viable fetus if it is born?


Perhaps the Octomom would be interested...?
 
2014-01-25 04:01:40 PM  
Cartman's gonna get his Critter Christmas after all!

BLOOD ORGY!
 
2014-01-25 04:02:15 PM  

hardinparamedic: Oh god farking damnit.

This lawyer is human scum.  THERE IS NO FETUS. It is grossly deformed and it's brain is a bag of fluid. It is  DEAD. She is  DEAD. Let them go in peace and the family mourn.

 
2014-01-25 04:02:36 PM  
It's Dr Mengele style care at this hospital it seems.

I do hope the state medical board and law bar open investigations into the actions that have taken place here.
 
GBB
2014-01-25 04:02:40 PM  

hardinparamedic: Oh god farking damnit.

This lawyer is human scum.  THERE IS NO FETUS. It is grossly deformed and it's brain is a bag of fluid. It is DEAD. She is  DEAD. Let them go in peace and the family mourn.


But the GOP prophecy says that this child will be the one to rise up against the evil liberals.  They must protect it at all costs.
 
2014-01-25 04:04:09 PM  

dfacto: TV's Vinnie: What are these fundie sickos going to do? Stand around a wheezing ball of twisted flesh after it's born from an artificially-animated corpse and sing "Yes, Jesus loves me" while it gurgles and yowls itself to death?


Sick as that is that may be the best possible outcome.  It's harder to spew pro-life nonsense with a hideously deformed DOA baby being born.  It might actually drive it through some skulls that this is stupid and wrong.


I heard an interesting story once at my old place of work.  A strongly pro life republican doctor moved to Washington DC and had to deal with crack babies being born constantly.  His prolife stance faltered and he advocated abortion rather than let all those crack babies be born.
 
2014-01-25 04:06:30 PM  

Stile4aly: WOMEN ARE NOT AXLOTL TANKS


After reading the article, this's what I thought, too. What the hospital is doing to the poor woman's corpse is despicable and I hope won't have further consequences for women in the future.
 
2014-01-25 04:06:32 PM  

dfacto: ... It might actually drive it through some skulls that this is stupid and wrong.


I wish that were true...but we both know it won't.

Because Bible.
 
2014-01-25 04:08:58 PM  
morristrust.comView Full Size


Only Republican senators and congressmen can help us now.

SHINE, GOP!

SHINE, ONCE MORE!
 
2014-01-25 04:09:05 PM  

Xythero: Gergesa: I take it the pro lifers aren't jumping at the bit to take responsibility for this non viable fetus if it is born?

Can she even go into labor? Is the fetus even growing?

Animating a corpse to give birth to a corpse is nothing but ghoulish.


David Cronenberg needs to read this.
 
2014-01-25 04:09:30 PM  
Baby back ribs?
 
2014-01-25 04:10:30 PM  
I can't imagine the family suffering this loss and then having to go through this.
 
2014-01-25 04:11:24 PM  
Not appealing it on the merits, the religious whacko lead counsel is probably banking on getting one of his religious whacko buddies on the bench next round. Like he was so close to getting this time, before she had to recuse herself.
 
2014-01-25 04:14:52 PM  

hardinparamedic: vpb: I'm guessing that they aren't volunteering to pick up the tab for the hospital stay.

As I understand it, the chief legal counsel for the hospital is actually a prominent Anti-abortion attorney, and one of the people who helped draft the law in Texas that they are referring to when refusing to remove this poor woman's body from the ventilator. So they're basically using this woman as a "pro-life" martyr.


i have no knowledge either way but given it's TX and given the arguments one could certainly think that. and i would expect the DA is right in there campaigning doing his due diligence too.

that people who proport to be motivated by religion they sure do some devilish things.
 
2014-01-25 04:20:24 PM  
What happens next time when the mother gets brain damaged in an accident, and a perfectly healthy baby is inside her?

A whole lot of people are not too eager about establishing a precedent for unplugging pregnant women.

Seems like a whole lot MORE want this baby dead.
 
2014-01-25 04:22:46 PM  
Hands down worst hospital in DFW, aside from Parkland of course. Poor lady, week tops. They'll kill whatever is left of this poor woman from the incompetent staff, or she'll be eaten by the massive amounts of crack heads that basically live there.
 
2014-01-25 04:23:33 PM  
i.imgur.comView Full Size



Next up: Genital mutilation. If a fetus can feel pain, then why are you mutilating its penis without sedatives and painkillers?

/Genital mutilation: Brought to you by Israel. Where mutilating your defenseless babies penis makes the baby 1% Jewish.
 
2014-01-25 04:23:43 PM  

mark12A: Seems like a whole lot MORE want this baby dead.


Nature wanted this fetus dead when the mother suffered a cardiac arrest, and it's neural tube and brain were so starved of oxygen that they underwent apoptosis and liquefaction necrosis.

Like the mother, this fetus is dead. It is non-viable. It has ceased to be. It is a meat-sack kept alive by our artificial interventions.

mark12A: A whole lot of people are not too eager about establishing a precedent for unplugging pregnant women.


And a whole lot of uneducated, religiously knee-jerking busybodies are very eager to tell other people how they should die after all hope is lost.
 
2014-01-25 04:23:53 PM  
Like I said, and I feel no different here as the Klingons said "It is an empty husk, treat it as such".I'm thinking dumpster behind an Albertsons.
 
2014-01-25 04:24:20 PM  
Pro-life is actually Pro-birth.
 
2014-01-25 04:27:05 PM  
I can appreciate wanting to err on the side of caution and protecting the life of an unborn child but what they're doing is asinine. I understand it's painful to lose someone but sometimes there's nothing you can do. They've done their due diligence. The fetus is not viable. It's time to let it go.
 
2014-01-25 04:28:13 PM  

SilentStrider: grumpfuff: hardinparamedic: Oh god farking damnit.

This lawyer is human scum.  THERE IS NO FETUS. It is grossly deformed and it's brain is a bag of fluid. It is DEAD. She is  DEAD. Let them go in peace and the family mourn.


Great. Just what we need. Another politician.
 
2014-01-25 04:28:15 PM  

Doktor_Zhivago: vpb: hardinparamedic:

The thing about it is, if they are found to have misapplied or even blatantly lied to the family in the application of this law, the county is liable on the tune of millions of dollars to the family for negligence, malpractice, and even illegal human experimentation for what they have done here.

It's Texas, so I'm guessing that's not much of a worry.

TORT REFORM


GET GOVERNMENT OUT OF HEALTHCARE DECISIONS
 
2014-01-25 04:28:36 PM  
IS it just me, or is this hospital working on getting sued out of existence? because once they finally put their deceased family member to rest, I can't see any reason why they shouldn't bring one hell of a lawsuit against anyone responsible for this incredible amount of bullshiat.
 
2014-01-25 04:28:39 PM  

mark12A: Seems like a whole lot MORE want this baby dead.


It already IS dead.
 
2014-01-25 04:29:09 PM  

mark12A: What happens next time when the mother gets brain damaged in an accident, and a perfectly healthy baby is inside her?


Brain damaged is not dead, and define perfectly healthy baby.
 
2014-01-25 04:29:49 PM  

mark12A: What happens next time when the mother gets brain damaged in an accident, and a perfectly healthy baby is inside her?



Oh silly boy.  We aren't dealing with a brain damaged woman.  She is brain dead.  Similarly we aren't dealing with a perfectly healthy baby.  The fetus is nonviable.  So your implied comparison is faulty on its basis.

A whole lot of people are not too eager about establishing a precedent for unplugging pregnant women.

How many are in favor of forcing brain dead women with non viable fetuses to be used as an atoxl tank from Dune?

Seems like a whole lot MORE want this baby dead.

Idiots apparently want to legalize forcing deteriorating zombies to incubate non viable fetuses.  Nothing says respect for life like bizarre medical experimentation.
 
2014-01-25 04:31:09 PM  
Farking religious republican pieces of shiat.

DIAF all of you.
 
2014-01-25 04:31:12 PM  
"God" saw fit to kill this woman and the unborn, who are we to judge otherwise?

NOW who is playing "God?"!!

Farking religious people all to farking HELL.
 
2014-01-25 04:31:27 PM  

TV's Vinnie: What are these fundie sickos going to do? Stand around a wheezing ball of twisted flesh after it's born from an artificially-animated corpse and sing "Yes, Jesus loves me" while it gurgles and yowls itself to death?


You're too young to remember the Reagan's presidency, I see.
 
2014-01-25 04:33:59 PM  
HUSBAND:  "Her limbs have become so stiff and rigid due to her deteriorating condition that now, when I move her hands, her bones crack, and her legs are nothing more than dead weight."

HOSPITAL:   "Advance Directives Act is legislative intent to protect the unborn child. Otherwise legislature would have simply allowed a pregnant patient to decide to let her life, and the life of her unborn child, end."

We simply cannot have pregnant women making decisions now can we.  The Republican church-state MUST mandate reproductive and end-of-life decisions for all women in advance because individual women simply cannot be trusted to do what's best for us.
 
2014-01-25 04:34:29 PM  
The only way to resolve this situation is to declare the fetus born. Suddenly its a Mexican and Republicans wont give 2 cents about its welfare.
 
2014-01-25 04:35:57 PM  

asquian: IS it just me, or is this hospital working on getting sued out of existence? because once they finally put their deceased family member to rest, I can't see any reason why they shouldn't bring one hell of a lawsuit against anyone responsible for this incredible amount of bullshiat.


Tort reform.  Brought to you by the same wingnuts, unsurprisingly.
 
2014-01-25 04:36:52 PM  

mark12A: What happens next time when the mother gets brain damaged in an accident, and a perfectly healthy baby is inside her?

A whole lot of people are not too eager about establishing a precedent for unplugging pregnant women.

Seems like a whole lot MORE want this baby dead.


Oh, look, a lefty.

Thinks the state knows best.
 
2014-01-25 04:37:39 PM  
fark them, fark them severely.

Someone make posters,"Save the Waterhead!"

How about forcing the hospitals legal council to adopt the baby if (however unlikely) it survives the.birth and attach all medical bills to the adoptor.

That sounds fair, all things considered.
 
2014-01-25 04:38:35 PM  
Since this has gone on so long already, let it go to 24 weeks, do a c-section and see what happens.
 
2014-01-25 04:39:22 PM  

LeroyBourne: Xythero: Gergesa: I take it the pro lifers aren't jumping at the bit to take responsibility for this non viable fetus if it is born?

Can she even go into labor? Is the fetus even growing?

Animating a corpse to give birth to a corpse is nothing but ghoulish.

David Cronenberg needs to read this.


Or David Lynch.
 
2014-01-25 04:40:32 PM  

dfacto: TV's Vinnie: What are these fundie sickos going to do? Stand around a wheezing ball of twisted flesh after it's born from an artificially-animated corpse and sing "Yes, Jesus loves me" while it gurgles and yowls itself to death?


Sick as that is that may be the best possible outcome.  It's harder to spew pro-life nonsense with a hideously deformed DOA baby being born.  It might actually drive it through some skulls that this is stupid and wrong.


I doubt it. They keep hearing on the Terry Schiavo case and how she was murdered. This despite the autopsy showing her brain had shriveled away to nothing and she was as dead as dead can be. Facts mean nothing to these folks.
 
2014-01-25 04:42:24 PM  

hardinparamedic: mark12A: Seems like a whole lot MORE want this baby dead.

Nature wanted this fetus dead when the mother suffered a cardiac arrest, and it's neural tube and brain were so starved of oxygen that they underwent apoptosis and liquefaction necrosis.

Like the mother, this fetus is dead. It is non-viable. It has ceased to be. It is a meat-sack kept alive by our artificial interventions.

mark12A: A whole lot of people are not too eager about establishing a precedent for unplugging pregnant women.

And a whole lot of uneducated, religiously knee-jerking busybodies are very eager to tell other people how they should die after all hope is lost.


It's my understanding that the drugs being given the mother are horribly toxic and should never be given to a pregnant woman.
Correct?
This is disgusting all around.
The original Judge that had ties to the hospitl should be given a permanent boot as well.
 
2014-01-25 04:42:35 PM  
It seems that the fact that both parents are EMTs with DNR requests has relevance here. Also, an apparent EMT is posting some fairly heinous fullcappery demanding the death of the baby. But it's hospital staff who want to take extraordinary measures to keep the pregnant woman alive.

One conclusion that can be drawn from this is that if you fall ill or have an accident, you'd better hope like fark you hang on until make it to the floor of the ER.
 
2014-01-25 04:42:36 PM  

SilentStrider: They only want to keep the fetus alive in the hopes that it will grow up to vote Republican.


The mother's brain dead. She's already qualified to vote Republican.
 
2014-01-25 04:44:47 PM  
This lawyer is human scum.  THERE IS NO FETUS. It is grossly deformed and it's brain is a bag of fluid. It is DEAD. She is  DEAD. Let them go in peace and the family mourn.

Let who go in peace?  If they're dead, aren't they already gone in peace?  But I haven't seen anything (at least in this article) to indicate the fetus is "dead" or under in the medical state you accuse.  The defense claimed there were abnormalities but there wasn't any indication of what those abnormalities might be.

It's funny how when it comes to abortion, a fetus is just a random clump of cells which may be discarded as readily as in any other surgery.  But when it's on life support suddenly it becomes a person again, deserving "death with dignity."  And of course the raison d'être of abortion is "women's health," but when there's no longer any hazard or consequence to the woman, the position doesn't change.

I would have thought the pro-choice position would be far closer to not caring what happens to still living cells of non-persons.  Instead, they seem more concerned about it than the people who honestly believe a human life is at stake.
 
2014-01-25 04:46:13 PM  
MechaPyx:   I can appreciate wanting to err on the side of caution and protecting the life of an unborn child but what they're doing is asinine. The fetus is not viable. It's time to let it go.


* The 14-week fetus was already unviable two months ago, on November 28th, when the mother died and her brain ceased all activity.  She was never in a coma.  She was never vegetative.  She was DEAD.

* This was and is NOT 'caution.'  This is morbid madness endorsed and enforced by a fundamentalist ideological machine that cannot think or empathize with human reality.
 
2014-01-25 04:51:30 PM  
No matter how this ends, all that will have been accomplished is for a tragedy to have been made even more tragic. I feel so bad for the family involved.
 
2014-01-25 04:51:36 PM  

FormatSlacker: The defense claimed there were abnormalities but there wasn't any indication of what those abnormalities might be.


That was in a previous article actually.  Without going back to look it up and get all the details, the fetus is hydro cephalic and the lower portion is deformed such that its genitals and legs are not really there.

FormatSlacker: But when it's on life support suddenly it becomes a person again, deserving "death with dignity."


The woman is on life support and deserves death with dignity.  Going against the wishes of her, her family and her husband is one problem.  Another is the people trying to justify this bizarre medical experimentation of zombie birth.

FormatSlacker: I would have thought the pro-choice position would be far closer to not caring what happens to still living cells of non-persons. Instead, they seem more concerned about it than the people who honestly believe a human life is at stake.


You only reveal your own ignorance.
 
2014-01-25 04:53:47 PM  
letrole: It seems that the fact that both parents are EMTs with DNR requests has relevance here. Also, an apparent EMT is posting some fairly heinous fullcappery demanding the death of the baby. But it's hospital staff who want to take extraordinary measures to keep the pregnant woman alive.

One conclusion that can be drawn from this is that if you fall ill or have an accident, you'd better hope like fark you hang on until make it to the floor of the ER.


Less obvious next time, m'kay? No points. Really, you kind of suck at this.
 
2014-01-25 04:54:23 PM  
It's OK. I hear the hospital has a very competent doctor caring for her, a Dr. J. Mengele.
 
2014-01-25 04:54:39 PM  

geek_mars: No matter how this ends, all that will have been accomplished is for a tragedy to have been made even more tragic. I feel so bad for the family involved.


To be fair, their version of the Aristocrats beats even Gilbert Gottfried's.
 
2014-01-25 04:55:34 PM  

FormatSlacker: This lawyer is human scum.  THERE IS NO FETUS. It is grossly deformed and it's brain is a bag of fluid. It is DEAD. She is  DEAD. Let them go in peace and the family mourn.

Let who go in peace?  If they're dead, aren't they already gone in peace?  But I haven't seen anything (at least in this article) to indicate the fetus is "dead" or under in the medical state you accuse.  The defense claimed there were abnormalities but there wasn't any indication of what those abnormalities might be.

It's funny how when it comes to abortion, a fetus is just a random clump of cells which may be discarded as readily as in any other surgery.  But when it's on life support suddenly it becomes a person again, deserving "death with dignity."  And of course the raison d'être of abortion is "women's health," but when there's no longer any hazard or consequence to the woman, the position doesn't change.

I would have thought the pro-choice position would be far closer to not caring what happens to still living cells of non-persons.  Instead, they seem more concerned about it than the people who honestly believe a human life is at stake.


And here I thought conservatives were interested in family values.  Can you even imagine what this family is going through?  No, of course not empathy is foreign to you.
 
2014-01-25 04:56:01 PM  

The Beatings Will Continue Until Morale Improves: It's OK. I hear the hospital has a very competent doctor caring for her, a Dr. J. Mengele.


It is more likely to be one of those Tleixu from Dune.
 
2014-01-25 04:57:30 PM  
Tragic situation.

If this were my daughter, I'd make a strongly worded post on Fark.
 
2014-01-25 04:57:41 PM  
To the Ft. Worth Hospital ASSHOLES:

Just let the dead woman and her doomed baby go.


Jesus, this story is just so nasty.
 
2014-01-25 04:58:16 PM  

JoieD'Zen: It's my understanding that the drugs being given the mother are horribly toxic and should never be given to a pregnant woman.
Correct?


Resuscitation Drugs tend to be Pregnancy Category B-D, but withholding them tends to promote death. It's a case where you either give the drug and save what you can, or they die.
 
2014-01-25 04:59:14 PM  

letrole: One conclusion that can be drawn from this is that if you fall ill or have an accident, you'd better hope like fark you hang on until make it to the floor of the ER.


Yeah, like you believe in things like "medicine" and "science" to begin with. All you care about is whether or not your religious beliefs are vindicated. Here's a hint: in this case, they are not. Unless you consider a non-viable fetus inside a medically dead woman to be a fetus. Even medical science does not.
 
2014-01-25 04:59:44 PM  

Gergesa: The woman is on life support and deserves death with dignity. Going against the wishes of her, her family and her husband is one problem. Another is the people trying to justify this bizarre medical experimentation of zombie birth.


I'm morbidly curious about the legal implications of this fetus if it's brought to term and "birthed." Can a dead woman be listed as a mother on a birth certificate in Texas? Would the baby be a citizen, being born a dead woman? I'm really confused thinking of the repercussions of incubating fetuses in the bodies of dead women.
 
2014-01-25 05:00:31 PM  
FormatSlacker: Moronic drivel.

Congradulations. People like you are the exact reason I have a living will and advanced directives at 28 years old, and relatively healthy.

This has nothing to do with abortion. The fetus is non-viable. It doesn't even have a brain. You are prolonging the life of a brain-dead woman via artificial ventilation and external feeding for NO reason what so ever. Against her documented wishes.

You're coming off as a sociopathic monster who doesn't even know what he's arguing about when you post stuff like this.
 
2014-01-25 05:01:26 PM  

wildcardjack: Their reason originally was to stay in line with state law. State Judge decrees that removal of life support should go forward. I don't see the problem here, unless there's some fantasy about being brought to some sort of trial for following a judge's orders. And then were in Kafka.


It's already deep into Eraserhead territory.
 
2014-01-25 05:01:52 PM  
How long until a family member says " enough of this shiat" and grabs a gun, goes to the hospital and pulls the plug themself?
 
2014-01-25 05:03:12 PM  

Barry Lyndon's Annuity Cheque: Can a dead woman be listed as a mother on a birth certificate in Texas? Would the baby be a citizen, being born a dead woman?


The baby would be dead, mercifully so. In rare cases, they have lived up to a year of life, dependent on tube feedings and a ventilator.
 
2014-01-25 05:03:18 PM  

hardinparamedic: JoieD'Zen: It's my understanding that the drugs being given the mother are horribly toxic and should never be given to a pregnant woman.
Correct?

Resuscitation Drugs tend to be Pregnancy Category B-D, but withholding them tends to promote death. It's a case where you either give the drug and save what you can, or they die.


Wouldn't the meds cause severe deformities in a fetus?
This whole thing is an inhuman religious/political/power show.
 
2014-01-25 05:04:26 PM  

SilentStrider: They only want to keep the fetus alive in the hopes that it will grow up to vote Republican.


Well if its dead, it will end up a democrat registered voter. And if its brain dead, it will be a democrat registered voter that votes several times in one election being bussed from polling station to polling station.
 
2014-01-25 05:07:05 PM  
mark12A: What happens next time when the mother gets brain damaged in an accident, and a perfectly healthy baby is inside her?
 
A whole lot of people are not too eager about establishing a precedent for unplugging pregnant women.

Seems like a whole lot MORE want this baby dead.


There isn't a baby, there is a fetus.  And it's not even a healthy fetus.


And the mother isn't "brain damaged", she is dead.
 
2014-01-25 05:07:15 PM  

JoieD'Zen: Wouldn't the meds cause severe deformities in a fetus?


The severe deformities in this case were caused by the fetus being starved of oxygen for a prolonged period of time, resulting in severe ischemic/anoxic injuries and cell death of oxygen-sensitive tissues. A pregnant woman's body will treat a fetus as a non-essential organ system in shock or distress, and will shunt blood away from the uterus the same it would from the extremities or the intestines/kidneys. It's one of the reasons you're taught to look for subtle changes and intervene before the mom gets into distress, because at that point the fetus has been in distress for some time.
 
2014-01-25 05:08:24 PM  

hardinparamedic: JoieD'Zen: It's my understanding that the drugs being given the mother are horribly toxic and should never be given to a pregnant woman.
Correct?

Resuscitation Drugs tend to be Pregnancy Category B-D, but withholding them tends to promote death. It's a case where you either give the drug and save what you can, or they die.


So basically, to "save" this fetus, they're farking it up even MORE?

There are no words for how farking disgustingly evil this all is. Prolonging the family's tragedy and wasting time, money and resources, all so that the "social conservative" scum can screech about how pro-life they are for political points. It's shiat like this that makes me wish there was a Hell.
 
2014-01-25 05:10:34 PM  
So what's to stop the husband from getting his family, friends and supporters to block the way while he disconnects the system? Not trying to ITG, but I'm close enough to where I'd be down for helping him with something like that.
 
2014-01-25 05:10:53 PM  
letrole: One conclusion that can be drawn from this is that if you fall ill or have an accident, you'd better hope like fark you hang on until make it to the floor of the ER.

cameroncrazy1984: Yeah, like you believe in things like "medicine" and "science" to begin with. All you care about is whether or not your religious beliefs are vindicated. Here's a hint: in this case, they are not. Unless you consider a non-viable fetus inside a medically dead woman to be a fetus. Even medical science does not.

No dear, all I care about is some fellow with trade-school qualifications making a unilateral decision to let me die. The main body of you comment shows what a farking obsessive idiot you are, and doesn't rate a thoughtful reply.
 
2014-01-25 05:11:04 PM  
This will resolve itself when the only thing that can keep the woman's body going is stem cells.
 
2014-01-25 05:11:28 PM  

sheep snorter: Pro-life is actually Pro-birth.

anti-sex.

FTFY
 
2014-01-25 05:11:56 PM  

bluenovaman: So what's to stop the husband from getting his family, friends and supporters to block the way while he disconnects the system? Not trying to ITG, but I'm close enough to where I'd be down for helping him with something like that.


I'm wondering if, supposing the husband did something to this effect, they would bring him up on charges.
 
2014-01-25 05:12:19 PM  

bluenovaman: So what's to stop the husband from getting his family, friends and supporters to block the way while he disconnects the system? Not trying to ITG, but I'm close enough to where I'd be down for helping him with something like that.


Technically, if there was a court order blocking removal from life support he could be charged with first or second degree murder for doing that.

LordJiro: So basically, to "save" this fetus, they're farking it up even MORE?

There are no words for how farking disgustingly evil this all is. Prolonging the family's tragedy and wasting time, money and resources, all so that the "social conservative" scum can screech about how pro-life they are for political points. It's shiat like this that makes me wish there was a Hell.


Yep.
 
2014-01-25 05:12:44 PM  
So which of the hospital employees is volunteering to pay the hospital bills and take financial responsibility for the "distinctly abnormal" fetus they care so much about?


Anyone?  Bueller?

Okay then STFU.
 
2014-01-25 05:14:10 PM  

Trillian Astra: bluenovaman: So what's to stop the husband from getting his family, friends and supporters to block the way while he disconnects the system? Not trying to ITG, but I'm close enough to where I'd be down for helping him with something like that.

I'm wondering if, supposing the husband did something to this effect, they would bring him up on charges.


Possibly, but you get me on that jury and he goes home.

/jury nullification ftw
 
2014-01-25 05:14:23 PM  
So since they're keeping the woman's body functioning until they can dig out the fetus that won't live, does that mean the family will get to pay for two funerals? Wouldn't the fetus at that point be considered a still birth and wouldn't it need it's own birth and death certificates?
 
2014-01-25 05:14:25 PM  
Here, have some crazy:

http://www.lifesitenews.com/news/judge-to-hospital-remove-pregnant-m om -from-life-support-according-to-husban

"We are appalled by Judge Wallace's order to terminate life support for Marlise Munoz and her baby," said Troy Newman of Operation Rescue in a statement following the ruling. "The order is the equivalent of signing a death sentence for Baby Munoz. We utterly reject the false notion that Marlise's body is a rotting corpse, which is impossible since a decaying body cannot support the life of a baby for weeks, as Marlise has."

Then read the comments.
 
2014-01-25 05:14:51 PM  

letrole: No dear, all I care about is some fellow with trade-school qualifications making a unilateral decision to let me die


EMTs don't make that decision, dumbass.
 
2014-01-25 05:15:43 PM  

cameroncrazy1984: letrole: No dear, all I care about is some fellow with trade-school qualifications making a unilateral decision to let me die

EMTs don't make that decision, dumbass.


You're arguing with somebody literally named "The troll".
 
2014-01-25 05:18:40 PM  

LordJiro: cameroncrazy1984: letrole: No dear, all I care about is some fellow with trade-school qualifications making a unilateral decision to let me die

EMTs don't make that decision, dumbass.

You're arguing with somebody literally named "The troll".


I know. But sometimes I like an easy target.
 
2014-01-25 05:19:20 PM  
As a prolife catholic, I have to say in this case close your eyes ask god to take these two into his hands and pull the plug.
 
2014-01-25 05:19:35 PM  
letrole: No dear, all I care about is some fellow with trade-school qualifications making a unilateral decision to let me die.

cameroncrazy1984: EMTs don't make that decision, dumbass.


Most idiots are either ignorant, or just stupid. You are both. Nevertheless, I find your simplicity engaging.
 
2014-01-25 05:19:36 PM  

hardinparamedic: Winkler County scandal


Oh God, do I even want to know what happened? What could possibly compare to this?
 
2014-01-25 05:19:37 PM  

DebinCO: Then read the comments.

"The husband doesnt want to take any responsibility for the child and wants to be free to roam I think."


Uh... I think I'm done reading the comments now.
 
2014-01-25 05:20:14 PM  

cameroncrazy1984: letrole: No dear, all I care about is some fellow with trade-school qualifications making a unilateral decision to let me die

EMTs don't make that decision, dumbass.


People still don't have him on ignore?
 
2014-01-25 05:21:17 PM  
The only reaction I can consistently muster for this ongoing abomination is 'ARE YOU farkING KIDDING ME??'

I wonder how many of us are needed to cause a disturbance in the Force...
 
2014-01-25 05:21:39 PM  

tiamet4: So which of the hospital employees is volunteering to pay the hospital bills and take financial responsibility for the "distinctly abnormal" fetus they care so much about?


Anyone?  Bueller?

Okay then STFU.


I wonder how many of the hospital staff are planning on quitting because of this debacle.  I can't imagine being the doctors, nurses, and CNAs etc are happy about this abomination of medical practice.  I'd just straight up quit.  No paycheck is worth minding a deteriorating corpse with a crackerjack prize inside.

I ghosts were real, that room, fark, that whole floor in the hospital is going to be haunted for decades.
 
2014-01-25 05:21:47 PM  

ReverendJimBobHammer: dfacto: TV's Vinnie: What are these fundie sickos going to do? Stand around a wheezing ball of twisted flesh after it's born from an artificially-animated corpse and sing "Yes, Jesus loves me" while it gurgles and yowls itself to death?


Sick as that is that may be the best possible outcome.  It's harder to spew pro-life nonsense with a hideously deformed DOA baby being born.  It might actually drive it through some skulls that this is stupid and wrong.

I doubt it. They keep hearing on the Terry Schiavo case and how she was murdered. This despite the autopsy showing her brain had shriveled away to nothing and she was as dead as dead can be. Facts mean nothing to these folks.


Terry Shiavo was NOT dead. She was severely brain damaged but had some minimal brain function. Therefore, alive. This woman is dead. The two cases are apples and oranges.

/had no problem with the Terry Shiavo decision, except that it was so drawn out
//told my hubby to go ahead and use a pillow when no one is looking if I am ever her
///you all can be his witnesses
 
2014-01-25 05:21:49 PM  

MeanJean: hardinparamedic: Winkler County scandal

Oh God, do I even want to know what happened? What could possibly compare to this?


Here is the entire history of the Winkler County Nurse scandal. It's worth a read if you want to see how insane things can be in Texas. It's got everything: Official Misconduct, Stalking, Abuse of the Judicial System, using moles to get information to harass whistleblowers, the works.
 
2014-01-25 05:22:01 PM  
FormatSlacker:   Let who go in peace?

Let her body and her family go in peace.

When her kidneys fail, should she receive organ donation ahead of actual living people because fetus?

The husband said:  "Her limbs have become so stiff and rigid due to her deteriorating condition that now, when I move her hands, her bones crack, and her legs are nothing more than dead weight."  When her steel-hard muscle contractures keep them from strapping her flat to the table for C-section, should staff just break her bones for improved surgical access to her stomach because fetus?

She died at 14 weeks' gestation, nowhere close to viability, let alone close to full-term birth.  Her husband and her parents wanted to stop medical intervention after her death to honor her very own wishes.  Why is this family not worthy to make such a painful decision without state and religious intervention?

Why are both quality of life and quality of death deemed to NOT be moral imperatives by those who object to this family's deeply personal decision?
 
2014-01-25 05:23:46 PM  
An open letter to the extraordinarily sick farks who support continuing to defile a corpse for political points:

Newsflash: Zygotes and fetuses fail to make it to term (aka. die) every day all around you of natural causes. Large numbers of them. It is a natural part of life. Deal with it.

Defiling a corpse to save one more, especially when the mother died at 14 weeks pregnant, is sick.

If you want to stop abortions you should support proper education and freely available birth control. These two things stop more abortions than all other efforts combined.

But you don't really want to stop abortions do you? You just want to score political points and punish naughty people who have sex. You are sick farkers.
 
2014-01-25 05:25:19 PM  

letrole: Most idiots are either ignorant, or just stupid. You are both. Nevertheless, I find your simplicity engaging.


I must have missed the part where you proved me incorrect. EMTs do not make the decision as to whether to pull a patient off life support. I'm sorry you don't understand simple, basic logic.
 
2014-01-25 05:25:56 PM  

hardinparamedic: cameroncrazy1984: letrole: No dear, all I care about is some fellow with trade-school qualifications making a unilateral decision to let me die

EMTs don't make that decision, dumbass.

People still don't have him on ignore?


Ignoring behavior is learned behavior
 
2014-01-25 05:27:23 PM  
Fano:

My god, that is so meta.

guestofaguest.comView Full Size


You get a Hipster thumbs up, Sir.
 
2014-01-25 05:28:16 PM  

OooShiny: MechaPyx:   I can appreciate wanting to err on the side of caution and protecting the life of an unborn child but what they're doing is asinine. The fetus is not viable. It's time to let it go.


* The 14-week fetus was already unviable two months ago, on November 28th, when the mother died and her brain ceased all activity.  She was never in a coma.  She was never vegetative.  She was DEAD.

* This was and is NOT 'caution.'  This is morbid madness endorsed and enforced by a fundamentalist ideological machine that cannot think or empathize with human reality.


In a case like this I think they have a duty to determine whether or not the fetus is viable before turning off life support(despite the DNR). If the fetus is healthy and there's a chance it can be brought to term then you try and save it. That's the ethical thing to do. BUT, once you've done due diligence and determined the fetus is not viable you terminate life support. That too is the ethical thing to do. In this case the fetus is nowhere near being brought to term and it's brain has turned to goo. It seems pretty clear to me it's time to pull the plug. What they're doing now is asinine and unethical and whoever made the decision to keep her on life support is criminally negligent at this point.

I really appreciate people wanting to make sure they do everything they can to save a life and not give up prematurely but there is nothing left to save here. Those two lives are gone and no amount of personal angst or gnashing of teeth are going to bring them back. I think some are arguing out of a genuine concern and respect for life but I think those who made this decision have shown incredibly poor judgment. I'm not sure what motivates them. Possibly they are trying to avoid legal troubles by being able to say they did everything they could to save those lives but they've crossed a line at this point. I think they realize that but they're unwilling to admit their mistake. Or maybe they really are selfish individuals who care more about scoring ideological and political points than anything else. What I do know is they need to stop.
 
2014-01-25 05:30:55 PM  

cameroncrazy1984: LordJiro: cameroncrazy1984: letrole: No dear, all I care about is some fellow with trade-school qualifications making a unilateral decision to let me die

EMTs don't make that decision, dumbass.

You're arguing with somebody literally named "The troll".

I know. But sometimes I like an easy target.


It's also possible other people are having the same thoughts seriously, so maybe it doesn't hurt to get some rebuttals out there...
 
2014-01-25 05:31:39 PM  

ladyfortuna: cameroncrazy1984: LordJiro: cameroncrazy1984: letrole: No dear, all I care about is some fellow with trade-school qualifications making a unilateral decision to let me die

EMTs don't make that decision, dumbass.

You're arguing with somebody literally named "The troll".

I know. But sometimes I like an easy target.

It's also possible other people are having the same thoughts seriously, so maybe it doesn't hurt to get some rebuttals out there...


Agreed.
 
2014-01-25 05:33:20 PM  
So will they now do pregnany tests on women of childbirth age before they pronounce her dead?

That poor, poor family. I am disgusted that they have to endure this living nightmare. The bastards that are putting them through this need to be sued for everything, then tarred and feathered.
 
2014-01-25 05:38:02 PM  

SecretAgentWoman: "God" saw fit to kill this woman and the unborn, who are we to judge otherwise?NOW who is playing "God?"!!
Farking religious people all to farking HELL.


Isn't that weird how that works? Well God intended someone to die, that's why they died, right?....oh no he didn't. We can save them!

Get a mob together with some ski masks and rage in there and pull the plugs. I bet it would be easy to get several hundred people to do this. Fark, get a flash mob, just for the LULZ.
 
2014-01-25 05:38:19 PM  
A few points, oft repeated but obviously not understood by all:

1) Brain dead is dead. She is, and has been, dead
2) A DNR or lack thereof is irrelevant, because
   2a) Texas overrides them by law when a woman is pregnant. Even early first trimester. However, the law does not legally apply here because she is not on life sustaining treatment as the law states. She is dead
   2b) It wouldn't matter here anyway because she is dead. Resuscitation is impossible
3) She is on organ support. NOT life support. There is no life to support
4) This has NOTHING AT ALL TO DO WITH ABORTION. No one is aborting or suggesting aborting anything

And now for my opinion: I don't care if the condition of the fetus is unknown. To incubate the living inside of the dead is an abomination against nature. It is sick, twisted, and a really f*cking bad idea. And F*CK anyone arguing in support of this sick devilry on religious grounds. There is nothing anywhere, in any religious teachings, texts, or dogma to suggest that incubating the living inside of the dead is God's will. Nothing. It. Is. Wrong.

No, Dune doesn't count as a religious text.
 
2014-01-25 05:40:02 PM  

DebinCO: Here, have some crazy:

http://www.lifesitenews.com/news/judge-to-hospital-remove-pregnant-m om -from-life-support-according-to-husban

"We are appalled by Judge Wallace's order to terminate life support for Marlise Munoz and her baby," said Troy Newman of Operation Rescue in a statement following the ruling. "The order is the equivalent of signing a death sentence for Baby Munoz. We utterly reject the false notion that Marlise's body is a rotting corpse, which is impossible since a decaying body cannot support the life of a baby for weeks, as Marlise has."

Then read the comments.


That's some down right farking crazy scary fark.

People with absolutely No background in medicine and no interest or intent to learn, believing that being on complete life support, mechanical breathing machines, cardiac stimulation and massive doses of drugs to prevent necrosis, which are harmful to what's left of the fetus constitutes being "alive".

I didn't think it could get worse than forcing a minor child to carry what would become the child of her rapist to term.

I am so very wrong. It did.
 
2014-01-25 05:40:24 PM  

MechaPyx: If the fetus is healthy and there's a chance it can be brought to term then you try and save it. That's the ethical thing to do.


No. It is never ethical to fark with a corpse.

If a living fetus can be removed from the corpse at the time of death that is justifiable. But otherwise it dies with the mother. That is life, death and the natural order of things.

We can do some pretty amazing things with medical science ... but turning corpses into incubators to pacify some religious whack-jobs is way over the line.
 
2014-01-25 05:41:31 PM  

hardinparamedic: Fano:

My god, that is so meta.

[guestofaguest.com image 500x333]

You get a Hipster thumbs up, Sir.


That man is a rapist, sexual predator and serial abuser of women. You shouldn't use his picture to make jokes.
 
2014-01-25 05:44:10 PM  

Barry Lyndon's Annuity Cheque: Gergesa: The woman is on life support and deserves death with dignity. Going against the wishes of her, her family and her husband is one problem. Another is the people trying to justify this bizarre medical experimentation of zombie birth.

I'm morbidly curious about the legal implications of this fetus if it's brought to term and "birthed." Can a dead woman be listed as a mother on a birth certificate in Texas? Would the baby be a citizen, being born a dead woman? I'm really confused thinking of the repercussions of incubating fetuses in the bodies of dead women.


The baby would be a citizen because it was born in the US; the mother's citizenship and whether she's dead is irrelevant (and I'm sure there are cases where people have been born via C-section from a mother who was dead or dying due to an accident, just much closer to full-term so this ghoulish shiat doesn't happen). Assuming the baby is actually still alive by then, which is highly unlikely.
 
2014-01-25 05:44:44 PM  

namegoeshere: A few points, oft repeated but obviously not understood by all:

1) Brain dead is dead. She is, and has been, dead
2) A DNR or lack thereof is irrelevant, because
   2a) Texas overrides them by law when a woman is pregnant. Even early first trimester. However, the law does not legally apply here because she is not on life sustaining treatment as the law states. She is dead
   2b) It wouldn't matter here anyway because she is dead. Resuscitation is impossible
3) She is on organ support. NOT life support. There is no life to support
4) This has NOTHING AT ALL TO DO WITH ABORTION. No one is aborting or suggesting aborting anything

And now for my opinion: I don't care if the condition of the fetus is unknown. To incubate the living inside of the dead is an abomination against nature. It is sick, twisted, and a really f*cking bad idea. And F*CK anyone arguing in support of this sick devilry on religious grounds. There is nothing anywhere, in any religious teachings, texts, or dogma to suggest that incubating the living inside of the dead is God's will. Nothing. It. Is. Wrong.

No, Dune doesn't count as a religious text.


All of this.
 
2014-01-25 05:45:22 PM  
letrole: Most idiots are either ignorant, or just stupid. You are both. Nevertheless, I find your simplicity engaging.
cameroncrazy1984: I must have missed the part where you proved me incorrect. EMTs do not make the decision as to whether to pull a patient off life support. I'm sorry you don't understand simple, basic logic.

This means I have post a whole list of links of EMTs being charged with making a unilateral decision with regards to treatment.


http://www.sheepsheadbites.com/2013/04/ems-denied-transgender-patient - care-causing-her-death-alleges-sheepshead-bay-lawyer/


http://scrubsmag.com/emt-faces-criminal-charges-after-reportedly-fail i ng-to-provide-care/


http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/charges-dropped-emt-called-911-pr e gnant-woman-died-article-1.1381913


http://www.jsonline.com/newswatch/kenosha-county-emt-faces-reduced-ch a rges-of-sexual-contact-with-seizure-patient-de9qhef-205944741.html


http://www.dreamindemon.com/2011/07/07/emt-charged-with-fondling-hara s sing-crash-survivor/
 
2014-01-25 05:45:54 PM  
Crazy religious freaks.
 
2014-01-25 05:46:46 PM  
Would anyone feel sad for the fetus if they pulled the plug now? How long would random strangers mourn over this fetus? None..
 
2014-01-25 05:48:07 PM  

Fano: hardinparamedic: cameroncrazy1984: letrole: No dear, all I care about is some fellow with trade-school qualifications making a unilateral decision to let me die

EMTs don't make that decision, dumbass.

People still don't have him on ignore?

Ignoring behavior is learned behavior


Lol you assume that this isn't a troll and his sockpuppet?
Adorable.
 
2014-01-25 05:49:14 PM  

OooShiny: FormatSlacker:   Let who go in peace?

Let her body and her family go in peace.

When her kidneys fail, should she receive organ donation ahead of actual living people because fetus?

The husband said:  "Her limbs have become so stiff and rigid due to her deteriorating condition that now, when I move her hands, her bones crack, and her legs are nothing more than dead weight."  When her steel-hard muscle contractures keep them from strapping her flat to the table for C-section, should staff just break her bones for improved surgical access to her stomach because fetus?

She died at 14 weeks' gestation, nowhere close to viability, let alone close to full-term birth.  Her husband and her parents wanted to stop medical intervention after her death to honor her very own wishes.  Why is this family not worthy to make such a painful decision without state and religious intervention?

Why are both quality of life and quality of death deemed to NOT be moral imperatives by those who object to this family's deeply personal decision?


Because death panels... or something.
 
2014-01-25 05:56:23 PM  

letrole: This means I have post a whole list of links of EMTs being charged with making a unilateral decision with regards to treatment.


My favorite part about all of that is that they are largely conservative EMTs not doing their jobs.
 
2014-01-25 05:57:08 PM  

Paris1127: hardinparamedic: JasonOfOrillia: This is a horrifying abuse of authority.  And an excellent example of the results of letting religious nutters apply their absolutism to the population at large.  Hopefully this will backfire on them.

And since the hospital is owned by the county, your tax dollars are paying for it!

And since the Tarrant County DA's office is defending the hospital, taxpayers are paying for the legal bills too. And the eventual (large) settlement against the hospital, DA's office, and county.




Texas DA's are immune from just about everything.
 
2014-01-25 06:00:10 PM  
Muzzleloader: Lol you assume that this isn't a troll and his sockpuppet? Adorable.

cameroncrazy1984: is no sockpuppet. He's my stalker. He gets a serious hardon when I show up. Constantly jumps up unbidden. The telling sign is the lack of serious substance in his posts. It's almost as though he has a maddening obsession to post something, *anything*, hoping to catch my eye.

I've tried to let him down gently, and I've tried being cruel to be kind. But alas, it seems the way it's going to continue is he's a pesistent pest that I treat with with a certain level of forbearance, like a kid next door with down's who comes running any time you step out into the garden..
 
2014-01-25 06:00:25 PM  

cameroncrazy1984: letrole: This means I have post a whole list of links of EMTs being charged with making a unilateral decision with regards to treatment.

My favorite part about all of that is that they are largely conservative EMTs not doing their jobs.


I'll add that since they are all charged with crimes that making unilateral decisions in regards to treatment is not part of their job and as such they do not get to make unilateral decisions in regards to treatment.
 
2014-01-25 06:01:42 PM  

letrole: cameroncrazy1984: is no sockpuppet. He's my stalker. He gets a serious hardon when I show up. Constantly jumps up unbidden. The telling sign is the lack of serious substance in his posts. It's almost as though he has a maddening obsession to post something, *anything*, hoping to catch my eye.


Unbidden? Boy, I've been in this thread replying to all kinds of comments since the beginning. Sorry to burst your ego, but it isn't like I just hopped in this thread just because you were in it. Do you dispute that? If so, provide evidence.
 
2014-01-25 06:02:09 PM  
Would it be possible for the husband / family to transfer the woman's body to another hospital that would be more amenable to accepting medical information and acting upon it rather than act upon a politico-religious ideology that has dick-all to do with making rational medical decisions?
 
2014-01-25 06:07:51 PM  
The hospital will mistakenly pull the plug when they need to power the camera and microphone on all the ghoulish attention whores for some Republican political ad.

This is the same Tarrant County that lets a rich kid off after he kills four people in a drunk driving incident because he rich to jail.
 
2014-01-25 06:10:01 PM  

Kome: Would it be possible for the husband / family to transfer the woman's body to another hospital that would be more amenable to accepting medical information and acting upon it rather than act upon a politico-religious ideology that has dick-all to do with making rational medical decisions?


This is Texas so....probably not, is my guess.
 
2014-01-25 06:10:43 PM  

FormatSlacker: The defense claimed there were abnormalities but there wasn't any indication of what those abnormalities might be.


According to Mr. Munoz's legal council: "even at this early stage, the lower extremities are deformed to the extent that the gender cannot be determined. The fetus suffers from hydrocephalus. It also appears that there are further abnormalities, including a possible heart problem that cannot be specifically determined due to the immobile nature of Mrs. Munoz's deceased body."

The hospital has corroborated those statements, rather than denied them.

Was your claim made due to ignorance, or are you simply lying?
 
2014-01-25 06:10:48 PM  
letrole: Unbidden? Boy, I've been in this thread replying to all kinds of comments since the beginning. Sorry to burst your ego, but it isn't like I just hopped in this thread just because you were in it. Do you dispute that? If so, provide evidence.


Here's the evidence. I don't want to talk to you. Go away.

You have two options: STFU or QED

Take your pick.
 
2014-01-25 06:11:07 PM  

DebinCO: Here, have some crazy:

http://www.lifesitenews.com/news/judge-to-hospital-remove-pregnant-m om -from-life-support-according-to-husban

"We are appalled by Judge Wallace's order to terminate life support for Marlise Munoz and her baby," said Troy Newman of Operation Rescue in a statement following the ruling. "The order is the equivalent of signing a death sentence for Baby Munoz. We utterly reject the false notion that Marlise's body is a rotting corpse, which is impossible since a decaying body cannot support the life of a baby for weeks, as Marlise has."

Then read the comments.


Brrrrrrrrrr...! Dang. One woman had the temerity to suggest she would pray for the the wife, the baby AND the father and was attacked in no uncertain terms for being a middle-of-the-road Christian. That's the point where I felt obliged to stop reading.
 
2014-01-25 06:12:04 PM  
Women, be subject to your husbands.*

*Also your clergyman, legislators, judges, activists, lobbyists, Sunday school teachers, deacons, rustlers, cut throats, murderers, bounty hunters, desperados, mugs, pugs, thugs, nitwits, halfwits, dimwits, vipers, snipers, con men, Indian agents, Mexican bandits, muggers, buggerers, bushwhackers, hornswogglers, horse thieves, bull dykes, train robbers, bank robbers, ass-kickers, shiat-kickers and Methodists.

In other words, ladies, just lay on your backs, point your heels to Jesus and think about handbags. I just hope the screwing you get is worth the screwing you get.

I'm so sorry women have to live in this country. They'll probably be drafted for the next war, too.
 
2014-01-25 06:16:24 PM  
In many ways this is what is going on in Texas - but instead of a mentally distraught husband - it is a bunch of busybodies at a hospital.
starsmedia.ign.comView Full Size
 
2014-01-25 06:17:59 PM  
I am pro-choice.  The well-being of a woman, mental, emotional, and physical, supercedes the rights of an unborn fetus.  However, in this case, the mother's well-being is irrelevant, as she's no longer living. Therefore, I believe the rights of the living fetus supercede the rights of a dead woman. If there's any chance of a viable infant being born, then, in my opinion, life support should be continued.

I haven't seen the evidence that the fetus isn't viable, though the reports state that the father's attorneys have such.  If this is true, then by all means end everything, but if there's any doubt at all, then I believe the fetus should be maintained until it is either born or all doubt in removed.
 
2014-01-25 06:18:22 PM  
Over at freerepublic they still believe the mother is alive and can be saved.

Insanity.
 
2014-01-25 06:18:31 PM  

BitwiseShift: The hospital will mistakenly pull the plug when they need to power the camera and microphone on all the ghoulish attention whores for some Republican political ad.

This is the same Tarrant County that lets a rich kid off after he kills four people in a drunk driving incident because he rich to jail.




If this women was the wife of a wealthy Texan, she would already be buried by now.
 
2014-01-25 06:19:09 PM  

letrole: Here's the evidence. I don't want to talk to you. Go away.

You have two options: STFU or QED

Take your pick.


You can always put me on ignore, bud. Nobody's stopping you. I'm sorry you hate having factual evidence provided for you.
 
2014-01-25 06:19:09 PM  
Hospital cannot into basic pregnancy science. A brain dead woman is no longer transmitting the required signals to pass the required chemicals to the fetus as would occur during the normal gestation of a living woman.

Is this the hospital you want to bring your medical emergencies to now?

Unless there's a really good reason to not leave, I would sincerely hope some patients would decide to take their medical needs elsewhere. This is beyond horrifying. And let there be even one penny of the entire cost fowarded to the family, if that place hasn't shoved a blasphemous lighting bolt up its own ass by then, Emprah will surely strike them down.
 
2014-01-25 06:23:49 PM  

sambluesnark: DebinCO: Here, have some crazy:

http://www.lifesitenews.com/news/judge-to-hospital-remove-pregnant-m om -from-life-support-according-to-husban

"We are appalled by Judge Wallace's order to terminate life support for Marlise Munoz and her baby," said Troy Newman of Operation Rescue in a statement following the ruling. "The order is the equivalent of signing a death sentence for Baby Munoz. We utterly reject the false notion that Marlise's body is a rotting corpse, which is impossible since a decaying body cannot support the life of a baby for weeks, as Marlise has."

Then read the comments.

That's some down right farking crazy scary fark.

People with absolutely No background in medicine and no interest or intent to learn, believing that being on complete life support, mechanical breathing machines, cardiac stimulation and massive doses of drugs to prevent necrosis, which are harmful to what's left of the fetus constitutes being "alive".

I didn't think it could get worse than forcing a minor child to carry what would become the child of her rapist to term.

I am so very wrong. It did.


Pro-life individuals of that nature are psychotic. Unfortunately, many pro-life individuals are of that nature.
 
2014-01-25 06:24:05 PM  

Sid Vicious' Corpse: But, they get to use the machine that goes "BING"!!


But they will turn it off when it goes "BEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE...."
 
2014-01-25 06:26:59 PM  

Amberleia: I am pro-choice.  The well-being of a woman, mental, emotional, and physical, supercedes the rights of an unborn fetus.  However, in this case, the mother's well-being is irrelevant, as she's no longer living. Therefore, I believe the rights of the living fetus supercede the rights of a dead woman. If there's any chance of a viable infant being born, then, in my opinion, life support should be continued.

I haven't seen the evidence that the fetus isn't viable, though the reports state that the father's attorneys have such.  If this is true, then by all means end everything, but if there's any doubt at all, then I believe the fetus should be maintained until it is either born or all doubt in removed.


I agree. Even, despite the substantial deformities already observed, the fact that the fetus was deprived of oxygen for several minutes, the fact that the fetus has not been properly exposed to hormones due to the death of the hormone regulator in the body and the fact that the fetus has been exposed to numerous damaging anti-necrotic drugs, if the slightest possibility that the fetus can be "born" as a horribly deformed, brain-damaged entity with no consciousness or cognitive ability that exists for a few minutes outside of the womb, then the Munoz family should continue to be subjected to their ongoing emotional torment and the substantial financial burden of medical bills for this unwanted treatment to the corpse of Ms. Munoz.
 
2014-01-25 06:29:30 PM  

FormatSlacker: It's funny how when it comes to abortion, a fetus is just a random clump of cells which may be discarded as readily as in any other surgery.  But when it's on life support suddenly it becomes a person again, deserving "death with dignity."


It's funny how you seem to think "death with dignity" has anything to do with the fetus in this case, and nothing to do with the former woman who was carrying it.

FormatSlacker: The defense claimed there were abnormalities but there wasn't any indication of what those abnormalities might be.


Ignorance can only take you so far in life. So please stop attempting to spread it to others, okay?
 
2014-01-25 06:31:53 PM  
letrole: Here's the evidence. I don't want to talk to you. Go away. You have two options: STFU or QED. Take your pick.
cameroncrazy1984: You can always put me on ignore, bud. Nobody's stopping you. I'm sorry you hate having factual evidence provided for you.


If you were Forest Gump, this is where you would say, "but you ain't got no legs, Lt. Dan", and Lt. Dan would say, "yes, I *know* that".
 
2014-01-25 06:33:51 PM  

sheep snorter: Next up: Genital mutilation. If a fetus can feel pain, then why are you mutilating its penis without sedatives and painkillers?

/Genital mutilation: Brought to you by Israel. Where mutilating your defenseless babies penis makes the baby 1% Jewish.


Problem... My republican dad is even saying pull the plug and let them pass.. being libertarian, I would probably offer the poor kid a free lunch with my own money (a true socialist gesture mind you). My opinion is I should not be forced to pay for a kid I never met.

/also love donating for purposes I believe in.
//surely I am not alone.
 
2014-01-25 06:39:16 PM  

sheep snorter: [i.imgur.com image 500x619]


Next up: Genital mutilation. If a fetus can feel pain, then why are you mutilating its penis without sedatives and painkillers?

/Genital mutilation: Brought to you by Israel. Where mutilating your defenseless babies penis makes the baby 1% Jewish.


I agree.
I think they should pull the plug and let the sky-god do his stuff.  If it's meant to be it's meant to be.
 
2014-01-25 06:42:10 PM  

SilentStrider: They only want to keep the fetus alive in the hopes that it will grow up to vote Republican.


This sounds like a South Park episode. *shudder*
 
2014-01-25 06:42:35 PM  

MechaPyx: In a case like this I think they have a duty to determine whether or not the fetus is viable before turning off life support(despite the DNR). If the fetus is healthy and there's a chance it can be brought to term then you try and save it. That's the ethical thing to do.


No, the ethical thing to do would be respecting the person's wishes, and that means not doing anything "despite" a DNR.
 
2014-01-25 06:44:52 PM  

TedCruz'sCrazyDad: Paris1127: hardinparamedic: JasonOfOrillia: This is a horrifying abuse of authority.  And an excellent example of the results of letting religious nutters apply their absolutism to the population at large.  Hopefully this will backfire on them.

And since the hospital is owned by the county, your tax dollars are paying for it!

And since the Tarrant County DA's office is defending the hospital, taxpayers are paying for the legal bills too. And the eventual (large) settlement against the hospital, DA's office, and county.

Texas DA's are immune from just about everything.


Even civil lawsuits?
 
2014-01-25 06:46:03 PM  

TV's Vinnie: What are these fundie sickos going to do? Stand around a wheezing ball of twisted flesh after it's born from an artificially-animated corpse and sing "Yes, Jesus loves me" while it gurgles and yowls itself to death?

I just don't see the slightest thing holy about this at all.

Religion that is used to dominate people instead of comfort them shouldn't be a Constitutional right.


They honestly can't comprehend that this won't be a baby in any sense and it'll die in horrible agony. That's why they do this. As I posted in the other thread, if you can't figure this out, you shouldn't be interfering with people's lives--you should be  waiting for your brain to grow into an adult one.
 
2014-01-25 06:48:51 PM  
Amberleia:   I am pro-choice.  The well-being of a woman, mental, emotional, and physical, supercedes the rights of an unborn fetus.  However, in this case, the mother's well-being is irrelevant, as she's no longer living. Therefore, I believe the rights of the living fetus supercede the rights of a dead woman. If there's any chance of a viable infant being born, then, in my opinion, life support should be continued.


Fetus was 14 weeks' gestation at time of mother's death.  Husband decided, after brain activity had ceased, that it was time to let her and her pregnancy go.  Had fetus been months closer to viability on November 28th, the husband's decision might have been very different.

Why do the state's 'ethics' and 'rights' supersede those of her husband, her parents and the patient herself as her family says she verbally expressed before death?

Why is it unethical for her loving husband, who's also her medical and legal power of attorney, to make this deeply personal decision without state intervention?

Why is it ethical for the state to force her husband and family to maintain her body and pregnancy against their express written consent?

Why is this husband's thoughtful, reasonable and loving decision codified as a crime by the state?

Why is this husband's deeply personal and private decision anyone else's business?
 
2014-01-25 06:49:24 PM  

Amberleia: I haven't seen the evidence that the fetus isn't viable,


Then you need to do your homework, starting with reading this thread.
 
2014-01-25 06:50:22 PM  

Amberleia: the mother's well-being is irrelevant, as she's no longer living


What about her living relatives? And no, the fetus doesn't count.
 
2014-01-25 06:51:38 PM  

Amberleia: I believe the rights of the living fetus supercede the rights of a dead woman.


Thank goodness your beliefs aren't the law. You are a frightening individual.
 
2014-01-25 06:52:29 PM  
Oh and another ick factor is the fact that there are people who have to come to work everyday and feed, clean, and provide care for a dead person.
 
2014-01-25 06:55:24 PM  

letrole: letrole: Here's the evidence. I don't want to talk to you. Go away. You have two options: STFU or QED. Take your pick.
cameroncrazy1984: You can always put me on ignore, bud. Nobody's stopping you. I'm sorry you hate having factual evidence provided for you.


If you were Forest Gump, this is where you would say, "but you ain't got no legs, Lt. Dan", and Lt. Dan would say, "yes, I *know* that".


Well that makes about as much sense as I expected for your reply. I guess you actually don't want me to go away.
 
2014-01-25 06:56:10 PM  
By the time the kid is ready to be born the mother's skin will be decayed so badly the baby will burst out of her abdominal cavity like in that scene from Alien.
 
2014-01-25 06:56:42 PM  

panfake: Oh and another ick factor is the fact that there are people who have to come to work everyday and feed, clean, and provide care for a dead person.


Yeah, that is creepy. I wonder what those poor nurses must be going through.
 
2014-01-25 06:56:51 PM  

panfake: Oh and another ick factor is the fact that there are people who have to come to work everyday and feed, clean, and provide care for a dead person.


Like I said up thread, I'd tell my boss to take the gomerbaby as shove it up his own twat and incubate on it. No paycheck is worth it.
 
2014-01-25 07:00:44 PM  

Farking Canuck: MechaPyx: If the fetus is healthy and there's a chance it can be brought to term then you try and save it. That's the ethical thing to do.

No. It is never ethical to fark with a corpse.

If a living fetus can be removed from the corpse at the time of death that is justifiable. But otherwise it dies with the mother. That is life, death and the natural order of things.

We can do some pretty amazing things with medical science ... but turning corpses into incubators to pacify some religious whack-jobs is way over the line.


I agree with that. I might be ok with incubating if the fetus is really close and needs another week or two. I'm uncomfortable pulling the plug in that situation so I'd rather try incubating than just let it die but I'd feel pretty uncomfortable with it. Just thought of it has me kind of squicked.

What they're doing now is way over the line. I'm not 'grab your torch and pitchforks' outraged but they need to have some common sense slapped into them.
 
2014-01-25 07:03:10 PM  
There HAVE been other cases where brain-dead women have been kept on life support in order to allow fetuses to develop enough to survive outside the womb. In 2012, viable twins were born by C-section from a woman who had died due to an aneurysm a month before.  In 2013, a baby was delivered from a mother who had been brain-dead for three months.  Also in 2013, a woman was pronounced brain-dead 8 weeks into her pregnancy.  She, and her fetus, were without oxygen for four hours. She was kept on life support, and her daughter celebrated her first birthday earlier this month. Admittedly, not all fetuses who have developed in women who have been on life support have been viable, but, without seeing the evidence that this individual fetus is not viable, who are we to say that the rights of a dead woman supercede that of the living fetus? Granted the judge, hospital, and family have seen evidence about the fetus' viability, and as I said previously, if the fetus truly has no chance of surviving outside of the womb, then by all means remove life support.  But if there's a chance that the fetus is viable, then its rights do take precedence.
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/brain-dead-mom-gives-birth-to-twins-whil e- on-life-support/
http://www.nydailynews.com/life-style/health/healthy-baby-born-brain -d ead-mother-hungary-article-1.1517401
http://www.wjhl.com/story/24486953/as-legal-battle-rages-over-brain- de ad-mother-in-texas-baby-born-to-brain-dead-mother-in-tri-cities-celebr ates-first-birthday
 
2014-01-25 07:03:52 PM  
I thought last week the only reason the hospital was keeping her "alive" was because the law.. but now a judge has told them to pull the plug and they're still going to fight it.. ?? What the Fark?
 
2014-01-25 07:04:03 PM  

Amberleia: There HAVE been other cases where brain-dead women have been kept on life support in order to allow fetuses to develop enough to survive outside the womb. In 2012, viable twins were born by C-section from a woman who had died due to an aneurysm a month before


Nobody's disputing that, but at 14-weeks they're not viable.
 
2014-01-25 07:04:16 PM  
Human experimentation. Nothing more.


Make them do one of those "3D ultrasounds" so the whole farking WORLD can see the "baby" they're trying to "save"
 
2014-01-25 07:04:44 PM  

FnkyTwn: I thought last week the only reason the hospital was keeping her "alive" was because the law.. but now a judge has told them to pull the plug and they're still going to fight it.. ?? What the Fark?


True Believers will take any reason they can to be Right.
 
2014-01-25 07:05:23 PM  

MechaPyx: . I'm not 'grab your torch and pitchforks' outraged but they need to have some common sense slapped into them.


Agreed. But I suggest we slap them with torches and pitchforks.
 
2014-01-25 07:05:58 PM  

RobertBruce: Since this has gone on so long already, let it go to 24 weeks, do a c-section and see what happens.


That is probably the plan already.
 
2014-01-25 07:08:04 PM  

OooShiny: Amberleia:   I am pro-choice.  The well-being of a woman, mental, emotional, and physical, supercedes the rights of an unborn fetus.  However, in this case, the mother's well-being is irrelevant, as she's no longer living. Therefore, I believe the rights of the living fetus supercede the rights of a dead woman. If there's any chance of a viable infant being born, then, in my opinion, life support should be continued.


Fetus was 14 weeks' gestation at time of mother's death.  Husband decided, after brain activity had ceased, that it was time to let her and her pregnancy go.  Had fetus been months closer to viability on November 28th, the husband's decision might have been very different.

Why do the state's 'ethics' and 'rights' supersede those of her husband, her parents and the patient herself as her family says she verbally expressed before death?

Why is it unethical for her loving husband, who's also her medical and legal power of attorney, to make this deeply personal decision without state intervention?

Why is it ethical for the state to force her husband and family to maintain her body and pregnancy against their express written consent?

Why is this husband's thoughtful, reasonable and loving decision codified as a crime by the state?

Why is this husband's deeply personal and private decision anyone else's business?


Because JAY-ZUSS!!!!!
 
2014-01-25 07:08:48 PM  

The My Little Pony Killer: Amberleia: I haven't seen the evidence that the fetus isn't viable,

Then you need to do your homework, starting with reading this thread.


I have seen articles stating that the attorneys have such evidence, but none of us have actually seen such evidence ourselves.  I imagine the hospital has evidence that they think demonstrates the fetus is viable.  And no, living relatives don't take precedence of the rights of the fetus.
 
2014-01-25 07:11:19 PM  

cameroncrazy1984: FnkyTwn: I thought last week the only reason the hospital was keeping her "alive" was because the law.. but now a judge has told them to pull the plug and they're still going to fight it.. ?? What the Fark?

True Believers will take any reason they can to be Right.


Even though there is not one place in the Bible or any other religious text or teaching that suggests that incubating the living inside of the dead, or any other Hail Mary medical intervention to attempt to save a doomed pregnancy is required by God.

There is nothing that says that allowing a pregnancy to terminate naturally when it is not viable is a sin.

Nothing. Not one word. Anywhere.

Yet they continue with this horror show in the name of their god.
 
2014-01-25 07:13:26 PM  

Amberleia: The My Little Pony Killer: Amberleia: I haven't seen the evidence that the fetus isn't viable,

Then you need to do your homework, starting with reading this thread.

I have seen articles stating that the attorneys have such evidence, but none of us have actually seen such evidence ourselves.  I imagine the hospital has evidence that they think demonstrates the fetus is viable.  And no, living relatives don't take precedence of the rights of the fetus.


Yes, actually, they do. The living trump the unborn and the dead.

Never mind that the drugs used to keep the woman's corpse from rotting would fark up a NORMAL fetus, but this fetus' brain is goo, its lower body is farked beyond repair, and, as it's developing inside a corpse, it WILL NOT develop normally enough to survive.
 
2014-01-25 07:14:36 PM  

cameroncrazy1984: Amberleia: There HAVE been other cases where brain-dead women have been kept on life support in order to allow fetuses to develop enough to survive outside the womb. In 2012, viable twins were born by C-section from a woman who had died due to an aneurysm a month before

Nobody's disputing that, but at 14-weeks they're not viable.


But the baby born in the second link I posted was born to a mother who was brain-dead when the fetus was just 15 weeks along and in the third link, the mother died when she was just 8 weeks pregnant.
 
2014-01-25 07:17:07 PM  

Amberleia: I am pro-choice.  The well-being of a woman, mental, emotional, and physical, supercedes the rights of an unborn fetus.  However, in this case, the mother's well-being is irrelevant, as she's no longer living. Therefore, I believe the rights of the living fetus supercede the rights of a dead woman. If there's any chance of a viable infant being born, then, in my opinion, life support should be continued.

I haven't seen the evidence that the fetus isn't viable, though the reports state that the father's attorneys have such.  If this is true, then by all means end everything, but if there's any doubt at all, then I believe the fetus should be maintained until it is either born or all doubt in removed.


I saw a similar post on the website. Was that you? You believe the "attorneys" are speaking for themselves and not the actual physicians and nurses who are required to coontil Monday) care for a deteriorating corpse which is "incubating" (and that's NOT what is happening) an abnormal fetus (hydrocephalus; no legs; vast internal derangement of organs, including the heart).

You say you are "pro-choice." I call BS. You are not pro-choice. You are pro-fetus, at all costs.

I'm going to try to give you the benefit of the doubt but, when you proclaim that a disintegrating dead woman should...no must...be required to carry a monster to term, I have a really hard time wrapping my head around that. This woman is dead. Her fetus at 22 weeks is beyond abnormal. You want a "live birth" to prove something, something, something, God, Jesus, miracle, something and that all the medical personnel are wrong and you and your ilk are right.

I think you should be in that operating room (not delivery room;the poor woman is dead and they're going to have to cut the fetus out), smelling the stench of death from her womb as they deliver a monstrosity which, most likely, won't even take a breath.

I thought I'd seen everything in my more than half-century on this planet...guess I was wrong. Very, very wrong.  :-(
 
2014-01-25 07:17:53 PM  

Amberleia: cameroncrazy1984: Amberleia: There HAVE been other cases where brain-dead women have been kept on life support in order to allow fetuses to develop enough to survive outside the womb. In 2012, viable twins were born by C-section from a woman who had died due to an aneurysm a month before

Nobody's disputing that, but at 14-weeks they're not viable.

But the baby born in the second link I posted was born to a mother who was brain-dead when the fetus was just 15 weeks along and in the third link, the mother died when she was just 8 weeks pregnant.


From the third link: "They had to put her in a medical induced comma for the entire rest of the pregnancy," said Odom.

I'm not sure what a comma is, but "coma" is not the same as "dead."
 
2014-01-25 07:18:18 PM  

Amberleia: cameroncrazy1984: Amberleia: There HAVE been other cases where brain-dead women have been kept on life support in order to allow fetuses to develop enough to survive outside the womb. In 2012, viable twins were born by C-section from a woman who had died due to an aneurysm a month before

Nobody's disputing that, but at 14-weeks they're not viable.

But the baby born in the second link I posted was born to a mother who was brain-dead when the fetus was just 15 weeks along and in the third link, the mother died when she was just 8 weeks pregnant.


It doesn't matter. If it hasn't been born yet, it's not a person. If it won't entitle me to drive in the carpool lane, and I can't list it as a dependent on my taxes, it's not a person. The law is pretty damn clear about the point at which it becomes a person.
 
2014-01-25 07:18:59 PM  

Amberleia: But the baby born in the second link I posted was born to a mother who was brain-dead when the fetus was just 15 weeks along and in the third link, the mother died when she was just 8 weeks pregnant.


Were either of those two fetuses abnormal as this one is?
 
2014-01-25 07:21:34 PM  
Amberleia: who are we to say that the rights of a dead woman supercede that of the living fetus

Who is anyone to say that the state's 'ethics' supersede the rights of her remaining living family?

If her husband and parents expressly asked to let her body and her pregnancy go, as he did at 14 weeks' gestation when his wife died, why is this decision unethical?

Why was a 14-week fetus more important that the woman's bodily dignity, her husband, her family and their wishes?  If family wanted to keep her dead body pumping to preserve the fetus for another 4 months, then fine.  But they did NOT want that.

Why is it okay for the state to overrule noncriminal decisions and even define those decisions as, in fact, criminal?
 
2014-01-25 07:24:12 PM  

cameroncrazy1984: Amberleia: There HAVE been other cases where brain-dead women have been kept on life support in order to allow fetuses to develop enough to survive outside the womb. In 2012, viable twins were born by C-section from a woman who had died due to an aneurysm a month before

Nobody's disputing that, but at 14-weeks they're not viable.


And that may be so, but it's still creepy as hell and I would not want that done to my corpse after I die.
 
2014-01-25 07:24:29 PM  

Amberleia: cameroncrazy1984: Amberleia: There HAVE been other cases where brain-dead women have been kept on life support in order to allow fetuses to develop enough to survive outside the womb. In 2012, viable twins were born by C-section from a woman who had died due to an aneurysm a month before

Nobody's disputing that, but at 14-weeks they're not viable.

But the baby born in the second link I posted was born to a mother who was brain-dead when the fetus was just 15 weeks along and in the third link, the mother died when she was just 8 weeks pregnant.


In the second link, the terms "vegetative state," "brain-dead" and "kept alive" were all thrown around, and the facts aren't clear. Vegetative state is very different from "brain-dead." And in the case under discussion, the woman is dead. She's rotting. They're essentially trying to keep her embalmed.
 
2014-01-25 07:25:21 PM  

TheSopwithTurtle: Amberleia: cameroncrazy1984: Amberleia: There HAVE been other cases where brain-dead women have been kept on life support in order to allow fetuses to develop enough to survive outside the womb. In 2012, viable twins were born by C-section from a woman who had died due to an aneurysm a month before

Nobody's disputing that, but at 14-weeks they're not viable.

But the baby born in the second link I posted was born to a mother who was brain-dead when the fetus was just 15 weeks along and in the third link, the mother died when she was just 8 weeks pregnant.

From the third link: "They had to put her in a  medical induced comma for the entire rest of the pregnancy," said Odom.

I'm not sure what a comma is, but "coma" is not the same as "dead."


Dr, Frank, en, shteen.
 
2014-01-25 07:25:58 PM  

oukewldave: How long until a family member says " enough of this shiat" and grabs a gun, goes to the hospital and pulls the plug themself?


Many years ago, think 1970's, this happened, possibly in Illinois but not certain.  A boy was on a ventilator after choking on a balloon and had no chance of recovery.  The father went to court to disconnect, hospital fought him on it.  Father went to hospital with a gun told everyone to leave and he disconnected the boy and held him in his arms.  Father was arrested but a grand jury declined to indict.
 
2014-01-25 07:26:17 PM  

TheSopwithTurtle: In the second link, the terms "vegetative state," "brain-dead" and "kept alive" were all thrown around, and the facts aren't clear. Vegetative state is very different from "brain-dead." And in the case under discussion, the woman is dead. She's rotting. They're essentially trying to keep her embalmed


This is actually a very good point. Brain-death is different from a vegetative state.
 
2014-01-25 07:29:20 PM  

Amberleia: cameroncrazy1984: Amberleia: There HAVE been other cases where brain-dead women have been kept on life support in order to allow fetuses to develop enough to survive outside the womb. In 2012, viable twins were born by C-section from a woman who had died due to an aneurysm a month before

Nobody's disputing that, but at 14-weeks they're not viable.

But the baby born in the second link I posted was born to a mother who was brain-dead when the fetus was just 15 weeks along and in the third link, the mother died when she was just 8 weeks pregnant.


Your second link: Complete bullshiat. You can tell because of the bit about donating the organs after the patient has been brain dead for that length of time. Impossible. Didn't happen. The body of a brain dead patient will decay. You can't stop it.

Your third link - also bullshiat because of this line: "They had to put her in a medical induced comma for the entire rest of the pregnancy," said Odom.

She could not possibly have been brain dead and needed to be put in a medically induced coma. She was not brain dead. She was not without oxygen for four hours, she had low oxygen for four hours. She was brain DAMAGED not dead.

As for the first link:
Dr. Cosmas Vandeven, who specializes in high-risk pregnancies at University of Michigan hospital, said Bolden's case is a "very exceptional scenario." He said an important ethical issue in cases like these is whether a brain-dead woman would suffer by being kept on a respirator and undergoing a C-section.
"Almost every parent would give their life for their child," Vandeven said. "But you need to get truly independent opinions: Are we sure we're not causing harm to the mom?"


Again, bullshiat, because no doctor anywhere outside of Hollywood Upstairs Medical School would question whether they were causing a dead body to suffer. A dead body doesn't suffer. It's dead.

As we have seen over and over and over in the Jahi McMath case, the media as a whole is unable to differentiate between brain DAMAGED and alive but in a persistent vegetative state requiring advanced life support, and brain DEAD, meaning no brain activity at all. Also meaning dead.

That's what is likely going on with your links.
 
2014-01-25 07:34:59 PM  

Amberleia: cameroncrazy1984: Amberleia: There HAVE been other cases where brain-dead women have been kept on life support in order to allow fetuses to develop enough to survive outside the womb. In 2012, viable twins were born by C-section from a woman who had died due to an aneurysm a month before

Nobody's disputing that, but at 14-weeks they're not viable.

But the baby born in the second link I posted was born to a mother who was brain-dead when the fetus was just 15 weeks along and in the third link, the mother died when she was just 8 weeks pregnant.


What don't you understand about this fetus having no chance of any kind of life?
 
2014-01-25 07:36:55 PM  
Amberleia: And no, living relatives don't take precedence of the rights of the fetus.


Owner of the uterus does indeed have legal control of choice over fertilized eggs, zygotes, embryos and fetuses through first trimester.  And just to be clear, owner of uterus is not the state.

When death of said uterine owner occurs, all medical decisions revert to spouse who, by default, is medical and legal power of attorney.
 
2014-01-25 07:42:39 PM  
letrole: Here's the evidence. I don't want to talk to you. Go away. You have two options: STFU or QED. Take your pick.
cameroncrazy1984: You can always put me on ignore, bud. Nobody's stopping you. I'm sorry you hate having factual evidence provided for you.
letrole: If you were Forest Gump, this is where you would say, "but you ain't got no legs, Lt. Dan", and Lt. Dan would say, "yes, I *know* that".
cameroncrazy1984: Well that makes about as much sense as I expected for your reply. I guess you actually don't want me to go away.


It doesn't matter. The random reader of this sub-thread is either bored shiatless, or mildly amused at the way that you're so clueless. I can type anything, and you will be compelled to respond. So if you reply now, you prove the point, and you lose. So don't reply. Just go do whatever it is that you people do for fun. Be a winner. Just say no to obsessive behaviour.
 
2014-01-25 07:43:54 PM  

OooShiny: Republican church-state


Republican Church-State has a nice ring to it.
 
2014-01-25 07:49:03 PM  

letrole: or mildly amused at the way that you're so clueless.


Objection, assumes facts not in evidence.

 

letrole: Just say no to obsessive behaviour.


Says the guy who told me to go away and yet continues to reply to me. Who's the obsessive one here?
 
2014-01-25 07:55:26 PM  

Alicious: RobertBruce: Since this has gone on so long already, let it go to 24 weeks, do a c-section and see what happens.

That is probably the plan already.


And when they do, and harvest a dead sack of deformed goo, who is going to take the blame then? As of yesterday, an ultrasound showed that the fetus in this case had severely deformed lower limbs and hydrocephaly, among other problems. Likely, if the lower limbs are deformed, it has other internal organs either deformed or missing.

This whole thing, and the girl in Oakland, have brought up an interesting phenomenon that needs to be examined more fully--that people don't comprehend the difference between "brain dead" and "dead but on life-support." Somebody above posted a link to a woman who managed to be delivered of a healthy baby despite being "brain dead"--but closer review of the case revealed she was in a medically-induced coma. The line between "brain death" and "coma" may be getting grayer and fuzzier, but it's still there; and the doctors keeping someone in a medically-induced coma is most definitely different.

This woman isn't just brain dead (someone whose brain no longer has any electrical function) she is dead. Her body functions have begun to shut down. If the ventilator was switched off, she wouldn't keep breathing--she has no meaningful brain stem impulses. The girl in Oakland, same thing. She is not "brain dead", but dead, and the organ responsible for keeping blood flowing is doing so by artificial means. If there was a power failure, she'd be dead in four minutes or less.

Terry Schiavo was "brain dead," in that she had no brain to speak of, but had enough brain stem to keep her heart and lungs functioning. She had to be starved to death, so there were some slightly different ethical issues about allowing her to die. The distinction is critical, and requires a knowledge of where the various autonomic functions are located in the brain. Heart and involuntary lung functions are very old and very low on the brain, so a human being can have virtually NO brain function and still breathe and have a pulse without mechanical assistance. (High-cord quadriplegics have suffered damage of the spinal cord at that critical juncture and have lost involuntary lung function) Anencephalic babies have brain stems, but no brains, and sometimes heartbreakingly survive long enough to breathe in the delivery room.

But being "brain dead" is not the same thing as being dead but maintained on a heart-lung machine, like this woman and the girl in Oakland. They have both begun to display signs of actual physical disintegration consistent with death. That means that not just HIGHER brain functions are gone, but also LOWER brain functions are gone--the autonomic functions that keep your internal organs regulated, your glands operating, etc. And, not at all incidentally, control gestation of a fetus. The human body isn't some kind of package of discrete parts that function independently--they are all interrelated parts of a whole, controlled by the brain. It's not that you pop in an egg and sperm and the uterus goes to work without any more input from the mother's body, incubating a baby like it was inside an egg. It requires constant though completely unconscious signals from the brain to regulate mom's liver functions, kidney output, insulin secretion, prevent toxin backup through the cord...all kinds of things that just keeping the heart beating won't help.

It's why pregnant women need to stay healthy, eat right, take vitamins, avoid stress. So they can have all the OTHER things besides a pulse that the baby needs. Hell, just the waste products from body deterioration building up in her system are likely to poison the fetus long before it could ever be brought to term. People need to realize that the mother isn't "brain dead", she is dead. A heartbeat is not enough to bring a fetus to term. The uterus is not somehow independent of the body its in, so a uterus in a dead body is a dead uterus. Sorry, folks.
 
2014-01-25 07:56:54 PM  
And it just keeps getting more and more outrageous as the pro-fetus group wants an abnormal, 22-week-old fetus to make it to at least 36 weeks (because then it's a baybee!) in order for it to "take its first breath" after the physical disintegration of its mother to prove that God, miracles, blah, blah, etc.

I am not an atheist. I'm actually OK with a higher power. Wish he/she/it would step in and stop this. But I am a rationalist. Sometimes fetuses don't survive the first six weeks of gestation. But, hey! Let's keep a decaying corpse as an "incubator" to prove the Almighty Will of God to bring forth a nearly dead monster to prove Jesus, God, miracles, etc.

Are we this insane? ::rhetorical question::

Can you imagine, if there is an afterlife, what this poor woman is going through? She's neither here nor there. This is a crime against nature.

There will be nightmares tonight.  :-(
 
2014-01-25 07:58:38 PM  
Only thing that about this horrific fiasco that would make sense to me is if the legal counsel is preparing to run for office of some sort, and is pumping up his bonifides for the derper crowd. I mean, why else would you do this?
 
2014-01-25 08:02:11 PM  

zeio: SilentStrider: They only want to keep the fetus alive in the hopes that it will grow up to vote Republican.

Well if its dead, it will end up a democrat registered voter. And if its brain dead, it will be a democrat registered voter that votes several times in one election being bussed from polling station to polling station.

EAT EVERY COCK, EVERYWHERE, FOR ALL TIME.

 
2014-01-25 08:03:32 PM  

Gyrfalcon: Alicious: RobertBruce: Since this has gone on so long already, let it go to 24 weeks, do a c-section and see what happens.

That is probably the plan already.

And when they do, and harvest a dead sack of deformed goo, who is going to take the blame then? As of yesterday, an ultrasound showed that the fetus in this case had severely deformed lower limbs and hydrocephaly, among other problems. Likely, if the lower limbs are deformed, it has other internal organs either deformed or missing.

This whole thing, and the girl in Oakland, have brought up an interesting phenomenon that needs to be examined more fully--that people don't comprehend the difference between "brain dead" and "dead but on life-support." Somebody above posted a link to a woman who managed to be delivered of a healthy baby despite being "brain dead"--but closer review of the case revealed she was in a medically-induced coma. The line between "brain death" and "coma" may be getting grayer and fuzzier, but it's still there; and the doctors keeping someone in a medically-induced coma is most definitely different.

This woman isn't just brain dead (someone whose brain no longer has any electrical function) she is dead. Her body functions have begun to shut down. If the ventilator was switched off, she wouldn't keep breathing--she has no meaningful brain stem impulses. The girl in Oakland, same thing. She is not "brain dead", but dead, and the organ responsible for keeping blood flowing is doing so by artificial means. If there was a power failure, she'd be dead in four minutes or less.

Terry Schiavo was "brain dead," in that she had no brain to speak of, but had enough brain stem to keep her heart and lungs functioning. She had to be starved to death, so there were some slightly different ethical issues about allowing her to die. The distinction is critical, and requires a knowledge of where the various autonomic functions are located in the brain. Heart and involuntary lung functions are very old and ...


Sorry, but you're wrong here. Brain DEAD means the complete absence of any brain activity whatsoever. Not even in the brain stem. The brain, all of it, has died. Medically and legally, a brain dead person is dead. Truly Most Sincerely Dead. There is no difference between brain dead and dead. When you are brain dead, you are dead. An ex parrot. The end.

Terry Shiavo was NOT brain dead. She had minimal brain function, therefore she was alive. She was severely brain DAMAGED, meaning alive. Anyone who has a spark in the brain stem is alive.

In order to be brain DEAD, there has to be no brain function at all. Not even in the brain stem. It can be misdiagnosed (as in the case of the brain dead people who are miraculously "cured") but it is a very clear and absolute definition. It is actually, thanks to modern medical advances, getting easier to diagnose, not harder.
 
2014-01-25 08:06:06 PM  
Universal Declaration of Death Act: (pdf)

"§ 1. [Determination of Death]. An individual who has sustained either (1)
irreversible cessation of circulatory and respiratory functions, or (2) irreversible
cessation of all functions of the entire brain, including the brain stem, is dead.
A
determination of death must be made in accordance with accepted medical
standards."

There are no levels of dead. You are alive, or you are dead. Brain dead is dead.
 
2014-01-25 08:06:53 PM  

zeio: SilentStrider: They only want to keep the fetus alive in the hopes that it will grow up to vote Republican.

Well if its dead, it will end up a democrat registered voter. And if its brain dead, it will be a democrat registered voter that votes several times in one election being bussed from polling station to polling station.


It's only funny because it's true.
 
2014-01-25 08:10:23 PM  

jmr61: Farking religious republican pieces of shiat.

DIAF all of you.


Very tolerant of you to wish death on others.
 
2014-01-25 08:13:49 PM  

namegoeshere: Universal Declaration of Death Act: (pdf)

"§ 1. [Determination of Death]. An individual who has sustained either (1)
irreversible cessation of circulatory and respiratory functions, or (2) irreversible
cessation of all functions of the entire brain, including the brain stem, is dead. A
determination of death must be made in accordance with accepted medical
standards."

There are no levels of dead. You are alive, or you are dead. Brain dead is dead.


That's fine, but that doesn't negate my larger point.
 
2014-01-25 08:15:33 PM  

Amberleia: There HAVE been other cases where brain-dead women have been kept on life support in order to allow fetuses to develop enough to survive outside the womb. In 2012, viable twins were born by C-section from a woman who had died due to an aneurysm a month before.  In 2013, a baby was delivered from a mother who had been brain-dead for three months.  Also in 2013, a woman was pronounced brain-dead 8 weeks into her pregnancy.  She, and her fetus, were without oxygen for four hours. She was kept on life support, and her daughter celebrated her first birthday earlier this month. Admittedly, not all fetuses who have developed in women who have been on life support have been viable, but, without seeing the evidence that this individual fetus is not viable, who are we to say that the rights of a dead woman supercede that of the living fetus? Granted the judge, hospital, and family have seen evidence about the fetus' viability, and as I said previously, if the fetus truly has no chance of surviving outside of the womb, then by all means remove life support.  But if there's a chance that the fetus is viable, then its rights do take precedence.



The problem with these sentiments is that exactly zero medical professionals have said the fetus is or will ever be anything but non-viable.  Munoz's medical experts have examined the fetus and determined it's deformed to the point that its long term survival prospects are zero, since it has limb deformation along with a heart defect along with a braincase full of too much fluid and not enough brain.  To further damn the whole thing, the hospital agrees with all of this.

This is not a case of a dead woman's still technically living body miraculously supporting a healthy fetus.  The fetus inside her has been dramatically damaged to the point where its survival in any circumstance is a near-certain impossibility. In the very very unlikely best case scenario, if the fetus was brought to term and delivered it would be a malformed vegetable that lived on life support for a few months before organ failure killed it; the vastly more likely scenario is that the fetus dies in utero anyway.  There's no life here to save unless you count a less-than-one-percent chance of a few months of non-conscious breathing, IV feeding, and (importantly) painful suffering a form of life.

All that said, there's another aspect that is getting underplayed here which makes the rest of the arguments moot: if the mother was alive and healthy right now and the fetus showed those same developmental deformities, she would not only be justified in aborting the fetus, she would probably be advised to do so.  That's what makes this case so utterly sick: the hospital has used this tragedy as an opportunity to force their hardline pro-life crap on an innocent family.  They're trying to claim that if a woman becomes incapacitated while in their care that they OWN her right to choose, despite the wishes of her family and the written wishes of the woman herself.
 
2014-01-25 08:16:08 PM  
I don't understand what the hospital hopes to get out of this.
 
2014-01-25 08:17:14 PM  
Amberleia:   In 2013, a woman was pronounced brain-dead 8 weeks into her pregnancy.  She, and her fetus, were without oxygen for four hours. She was kept on life support, and her daughter celebrated her first birthday earlier this month.


Article actually says patient was put in a medically-induced coma.  See Glasgow Coma Scale on how coma status is evaluated.

* Brain-dead does not = coma because minimal brainwaves are still present.
* Brain-dead does not = vegetative because minimal brainwaves are still present.
* Brain-dead does = no measurable brain activity.

Her family said she was 'brain-dead,' not doctors.  However, such misinterpretation by laymen especially during such high stress is completely understandable.

No fetus or woman has lived completely without oxygen for four hours.  Further, you can't put brain-dead people in a coma, as that would require artificially increasing brain activity of the brain-dead just to qualify as comatose.  Science is not yet capable of such feats.

Despite false 'evidence' in your linked case, the question is this:

Did family consent to life-support for comatose woman to incubate fetus until viable gestational age? If yes, then fine.

Fort Worth case is different because this woman is irreversibly brain-dead and her loving family refused medical intervention after her death, but were forced by the state to accept it anyway despite pregnancy being only in first trimester.
 
2014-01-25 08:19:21 PM  

armor helix: I don't understand what the hospital hopes to get out of this.


They want to be viewed as compassionate.

/that's the joke
 
2014-01-25 08:20:36 PM  

Trillian Astra: bluenovaman: So what's to stop the husband from getting his family, friends and supporters to block the way while he disconnects the system? Not trying to ITG, but I'm close enough to where I'd be down for helping him with something like that.

I'm wondering if, supposing the husband did something to this effect, they would bring him up on charges.


Charged for carrying out a court order?
 
2014-01-25 08:22:28 PM  

Amberleia: There HAVE been other cases where brain-dead women have been kept on life support in order to allow fetuses to develop enough to survive outside the womb. In 2012, viable twins were born by C-section from a woman who had died due to an aneurysm a month before.  In 2013, a baby was delivered from a mother who had been brain-dead for three months.  Also in 2013, a woman was pronounced brain-dead 8 weeks into her pregnancy.  She, and her fetus, were without oxygen for four hours. She was kept on life support, and her daughter celebrated her first birthday earlier this month. Admittedly, not all fetuses who have developed in women who have been on life support have been viable, but, without seeing the evidence that this individual fetus is not viable, who are we to say that the rights of a dead woman supercede that of the living fetus? Granted the judge, hospital, and family have seen evidence about the fetus' viability, and as I said previously, if the fetus truly has no chance of surviving outside of the womb, then by all means remove life support.  But if there's a chance that the fetus is viable, then its rights do take precedence.


Looks to me like you just read the headlines and didn't stop to think about what was actually being said. It doesn't help that the reporting for your latter two links aren't exactly prime examples of excellent reportage.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/brain-dead-mom-gives-birth-to-twins-whil e- on-life-support/

Yes, the mother was declared brain dead, but her twins were already 21 weeks along, and they only kept her on support for a month. 21 weeks is hella different from 14 weeks. Even so, the doctors are quoted as being concerned about the babies having long term health problems owing to their early birth at 25 weeks.

http://www.nydailynews.com/life-style/health/healthy-baby-born-brain -d ead-mother-hungary-article-1.1517401

FTFA: "A baby was born to a brain-dead mother in Hungary after she was kept in a vegetative state for three months - one of few such cases on record, doctors said."

So, was the mother brain dead, or just in a vegetative state? The article provides almost no details, and it's quite possible that an iffy translation from Hungarian to English clouds the actual circumstances.

http://www.wjhl.com/story/24486953/as-legal-battle-rages-over-brain- de ad-mother-in-texas-baby-born-to-brain-dead-mother-in-tri-cities-celebr ates-first-birthday

FTFA: "After only 8 weeks of pregnancy, Hope's mother overdosed on drugs. She went 4 hours without the proper level of oxygen.

"They had to put her in a medical induced comma [sic] for the entire rest of the pregnancy," said Odom."


What brain dead person needs to be put in a medically induced coma? Hint: The answer is none.


It's absolutely correct to make sure that the fetus has no chance of survival, but you're reaching way too far for some example that supports the ongoing travesty in Texas.  Be honest with yourself.
 
2014-01-25 08:22:46 PM  

Gyrfalcon: namegoeshere: Universal Declaration of Death Act: (pdf)

"§ 1. [Determination of Death]. An individual who has sustained either (1)
irreversible cessation of circulatory and respiratory functions, or (2) irreversible
cessation of all functions of the entire brain, including the brain stem, is dead. A
determination of death must be made in accordance with accepted medical
standards."

There are no levels of dead. You are alive, or you are dead. Brain dead is dead.

That's fine, but that doesn't negate my larger point.


The inability to correctly define brain death and differentiate between brain death and severe brain damage is what is causing this  case and Jahi McMath's case to be such a f*cking nightmare. You said, "this woman isn't JUST* brain dead [... ] she is dead." and "But being "brain dead" is not the same thing as being dead but maintained on a heart-lung machine, " (*Emphasis mine) This implies that there is a difference between brain dead and dead, and that it is possible to be brain dead and alive. It is not.

Brain death is death. It is critical that we all be very clear on this point.
 
2014-01-25 08:27:27 PM  

BetterMetalSnake: The only way to resolve this situation is to declare the fetus born. Suddenly its a Mexican and Republicans wont give 2 cents about its welfare.


This. They'll claim that it's an illegal immigrant and kick it across the border.
 
2014-01-25 08:29:55 PM  
Well, I see in the time I spent leisurely composing my post, a passel of folks stepped up to point out the problems with the examples given in Amberleia's links. I'm gratified despite feeling a bit redundant.
 
2014-01-25 08:30:26 PM  

namegoeshere: Gyrfalcon: namegoeshere: Universal Declaration of Death Act: (pdf)

"§ 1. [Determination of Death]. An individual who has sustained either (1)
irreversible cessation of circulatory and respiratory functions, or (2) irreversible
cessation of all functions of the entire brain, including the brain stem, is dead. A
determination of death must be made in accordance with accepted medical
standards."

There are no levels of dead. You are alive, or you are dead. Brain dead is dead.

That's fine, but that doesn't negate my larger point.

The inability to correctly define brain death and differentiate between brain death and severe brain damage is what is causing this  case and Jahi McMath's case to be such a f*cking nightmare. You said, "this woman isn't JUST* brain dead [... ] she is dead." and "But being "brain dead" is not the same thing as being dead but maintained on a heart-lung machine, " (*Emphasis mine) This implies that there is a difference between brain dead and dead, and that it is possible to be brain dead and alive. It is not.

Brain death is death. It is critical that we all be very clear on this point.


The point we need to be clear on is that a dead body can't support a live fetus.
 
2014-01-25 08:30:38 PM  

The My Little Pony Killer: armor helix: I don't understand what the hospital hopes to get out of this.

They want to be viewed as compassionate.

/that's the joke


They want to sell their legal counsel's "a fetus is a person so abortion is murder" line of bullshiat. It's strictly political grandstanding.
 
2014-01-25 08:33:28 PM  
Texas sucks.
 
2014-01-25 08:37:40 PM  

Gyrfalcon: namegoeshere: Gyrfalcon: namegoeshere: Universal Declaration of Death Act: (pdf)

"§ 1. [Determination of Death]. An individual who has sustained either (1)
irreversible cessation of circulatory and respiratory functions, or (2) irreversible
cessation of all functions of the entire brain, including the brain stem, is dead. A
determination of death must be made in accordance with accepted medical
standards."

There are no levels of dead. You are alive, or you are dead. Brain dead is dead.

That's fine, but that doesn't negate my larger point.

The inability to correctly define brain death and differentiate between brain death and severe brain damage is what is causing this  case and Jahi McMath's case to be such a f*cking nightmare. You said, "this woman isn't JUST* brain dead [... ] she is dead." and "But being "brain dead" is not the same thing as being dead but maintained on a heart-lung machine, " (*Emphasis mine) This implies that there is a difference between brain dead and dead, and that it is possible to be brain dead and alive. It is not.

Brain death is death. It is critical that we all be very clear on this point.

The point we need to be clear on is that a dead body can't support a live fetus.


AND that a brain dead patient is indeed a dead body.
 
2014-01-25 08:42:01 PM  

TheDirtyNacho: It's Dr Mengele style care at this hospital it seems.

I do hope the state medical board and law bar open investigations into the actions that have taken place here.


^^^^THIS^^^^

It's time for some malpractice charges to be brought.
 
2014-01-25 08:45:49 PM  
I'm glad none of you farkers were that child.
 
2014-01-25 08:47:48 PM  

Lydia_C: Well, I see in the time I spent leisurely composing my post, a passel of folks stepped up to point out the problems with the examples given in Amberleia's links. I'm gratified despite feeling a bit redundant.


It may help people who are on the fence if they see multiple people weighing in, so... don't feel so bad I guess?

Gyrfalcon: Alicious: RobertBruce: Since this has gone on so long already, let it go to 24 weeks, do a c-section and see what happens.

That is probably the plan already.

And when they do, and harvest a dead sack of deformed goo, who is going to take the blame then?


Forgive me for being selfish here but I am SO SO GLAD I cannot carry any fetus at all, at this point. I don't care if it's paranoia, if I were even just in a coma, much less brain dead, I would not want to be considered a mere incubator by the state. Whatever state that might be. UGH.
 
2014-01-25 08:47:50 PM  

armor helix: I don't understand what the hospital hopes to get out of this.


The DA and legal counsel for the hospital are made up of vehemently anti-abortion lawyers who are active on the national scene. They are using this woman as a martyr for their cause. No matter the outcome. If she's taken off life support, it'll be because those liebrul baby murderers willed it through activist judges.

There are also people behind the scenes pulling the strings, just like with Schiavo.

 

jgk3: It's time for some malpractice charges to be brought.


You're assuming the attending physicians are the ones who started this. From all understanding, it was the hospital's legal council when it was brought before their ethics committee who started it.
 
2014-01-25 09:08:02 PM  

Amberleia: I am pro-choice.  The well-being of a woman, mental, emotional, and physical, supercedes the rights of an unborn fetus.  However, in this case, the mother's well-being is irrelevant, as she's no longer living. Therefore, I believe the rights of the living fetus supercede the rights of a dead woman. If there's any chance of a viable infant being born, then, in my opinion, life support should be continued.

I haven't seen the evidence that the fetus isn't viable, though the reports state that the father's attorneys have such.  If this is true, then by all means end everything, but if there's any doubt at all, then I believe the fetus should be maintained until it is either born or all doubt in removed.


I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you're not a truly twisted fark or troll.

What, exactly, do you think it would be the husbands, lawyers, and doctor's motive to lie about the fetus?  If the fetus was healthy, why are all these people lying about its shape?
 
2014-01-25 09:11:09 PM  

Chach: I'm glad none of you farkers were that child.


Yes, none of us were non-viable abnormal fetuses inside dead bodies, because we were actually born.
 
2014-01-25 09:11:11 PM  

Chach: I'm glad none of you farkers were that child.


If you could call it that...which I wouldn't.
 
2014-01-25 09:18:49 PM  

Chach: I'm glad none of you farkers were that child.


Yes, I'm very glad I wasn't gestated in rotting corpse and brought into the world for a short, painful life only to die within hours, if I even had that much of a life.
 
2014-01-25 09:20:46 PM  
The family should sue for intentional cruelty, malicious medical malpractice, desecration of a corpse, and extortion.
The greedy, braindead farkwits who are inflicting this on the  family should foot the entire award - that family will win - from their own damned pockets.
 
2014-01-25 09:21:32 PM  

Chach: I'm glad none of you farkers were that child.


Sweet farking Jesus.

A three digit troll account?

Is this for real, or is a mod backdating/renaming inactive accounts for troll use again?
 
2014-01-25 09:22:47 PM  

Satanic_Hamster: Chach: I'm glad none of you farkers were that child.

Sweet farking Jesus.

A three digit troll account?

Is this for real, or is a mod backdating/renaming inactive accounts for troll use again?


Listen, noob, not everyone that disagrees with you is a troll.
 
2014-01-25 09:23:36 PM  
I don't think I put enough bourbon in this hot toddy to deal with the continuation of this horror story.

/My state also has laws that override DNR when there's a pregnancy
//Have never been more grateful for lesbianism, Mirena, and a biologist girlfriend who is just as adamant as I am about not getting pregnant ever.
 
2014-01-25 09:32:07 PM  

Strix occidentalis: I don't think I put enough bourbon in this hot toddy to deal with the continuation of this horror story.

/My state also has laws that override DNR when there's a pregnancy
//Have never been more grateful for lesbianism, Mirena, and a biologist girlfriend who is just as adamant as I am about not getting pregnant ever.


Why do you need Mirena if you're a lesbian? I mean, unless she's a pre-op transsexual, in which case lesbianism isn't something to be thankful as it won't prevent pregnancy in your situation...
 
2014-01-25 09:47:34 PM  

MeanJean: Strix occidentalis: I don't think I put enough bourbon in this hot toddy to deal with the continuation of this horror story.

/My state also has laws that override DNR when there's a pregnancy
//Have never been more grateful for lesbianism, Mirena, and a biologist girlfriend who is just as adamant as I am about not getting pregnant ever.

Why do you need Mirena if you're a lesbian? I mean, unless she's a pre-op transsexual, in which case lesbianism isn't something to be thankful as it won't prevent pregnancy in your situation...


I had awful, heavy periods with cramps that were so bad I've mistaken them for appendicitis before, even on the pill.  The IUD has completely eliminated my period, which makes me a much happier camper.
 
2014-01-25 10:36:25 PM  

hardinparamedic: armor helix: I don't understand what the hospital hopes to get out of this.

The DA and legal counsel for the hospital are made up of vehemently anti-abortion lawyers who are active on the national scene. They are using this woman as a martyr for their cause. No matter the outcome. If she's taken off life support, it'll be because those liebrul baby murderers willed it through activist judges.

There are also people behind the scenes pulling the strings, just like with Schiavo.

 jgk3: It's time for some malpractice charges to be brought.

You're assuming the attending physicians are the ones who started this. From all understanding, it was the hospital's legal council when it was brought before their ethics committee who started it.



Nonetheless, someone has to maintain the fluids, the machinery, the medical environment and run tests that contribute to this.

I find it hard to believe that medical staff would go along willingly, but thats why I think it should be thoroughly investigated - to find who played what role, and why.
 
2014-01-25 10:38:32 PM  

MeanJean: Why do you need Mirena if you're a lesbian? I mean, unless she's a pre-op transsexual, in which case lesbianism isn't something to be thankful as it won't prevent pregnancy in your situation...


Some women take hormonal contraception for reproductive illnesses, such as endometriosis. My ex-wife could not even function without being on HCP for hers.
 
2014-01-25 10:46:20 PM  

Strix occidentalis: I had awful, heavy periods with cramps that were so bad I've mistaken them for appendicitis before, even on the pill.  The IUD has completely eliminated my period, which makes me a much happier cramper.

 
2014-01-25 10:55:50 PM  

swaniefrmreddeer: Godf*ckingdamnit, the fetus that they said wasn't viable. Pro-lifers are the most vile people on the planet.



Almost as vile as abortion doctors and those who kill their unborn children.
 
2014-01-25 10:57:11 PM  

Truther: Almost as vile as abortion doctors and those who kill their unborn children.


Awww, how cute.
 
2014-01-25 11:00:13 PM