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(CBS DC)   Time to reset that clock. UPDATE: Shooting suspect confirmed dead. Link to police briefing in article   (washington.cbslocal.com) divider line 569
    More: News, clocks, Howard County  
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11763 clicks; posted to Main » on 25 Jan 2014 at 12:45 PM (43 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-01-25 06:09:40 PM  

SurelyShirley: Parthenogenetic: The regime and its media allies want you to think we're the enemy, but we're the thin line of heroes that separates you from tyranny.

If the "regime" (which ever it may be) decides that tyranny seems like a good idea, they'll come to you with reapers and hellfire missiles. Before you and your band of heroes can yell "1776 will commence!" your entire block will go boom.


How's things in Afghanistan?
 
2014-01-25 06:10:16 PM  

Alonjar: Purdue_Pete: [Days since last shooting.jpg]

Since when is a double homicide a "mass shooting"?


Since Osama kicked Americas ass.
 
2014-01-25 06:11:19 PM  
Great Porn Dragon: Damn. That was insightful. You're getting a favorite color and my promise that when my paycheck gets posted Monday, a month of TF.

/Would sponsor now, but I have a case of the broke
 
2014-01-25 06:11:40 PM  

The First Four Black Sabbath Albums: Can we PLEASE talk about banning gay marriage now?


These things did start happening when the gays started destroying tradition.
 
2014-01-25 06:12:10 PM  

bluejeansonfire: Parthenogenetic: The liberal mainstream media never covers the millions of times when law-abiding armed citizens go to malls and movie theaters and don't shoot anybody.

Go ahead and panic, sheeple.  The regime and its media allies want you to think we're the enemy, but we're the thin line of heroes that separates you from tyranny.

Farking listen to yourself. I can hear the bloodlust from here.


Alcohol kills 80,000 and is a factor in 40% of all violent crimes. Tobacco kills 400,000 a year.

Neither are cheap plot devices for movie heroes. Nobody clicks CNN over and over again to learn the personal details of the guy who just wrecked his car and killed two kids in rural Minnesota. Nobody wants to know the psychological past of the guy who just beat his wife to death in a drunken rage in San Antonio.

You focus on guns because they're dramatic plot devices. Deaths from guns are romanticised. Deaths from much more dangerous, yet legal, activities are ignored because they don't make good instant reality programming.
 
2014-01-25 06:12:56 PM  

Daedalus27: Clutch2013: Daedalus27: Sorry Clutch2013, the shell casing.  Putting that on the bullet would likely lead to it being destroyed.

That's only marginally better. I'd still like an explanation as to how it works without losing the tag when the gun's fired.


My guess would be you imprint the info after the bullet is fired as the shell is being ejected.  I guess they could maybe redesign the firing pin to perhaps place the info as it strikes the bullet.  I don't know for certain and it would seem to be subject to quite a bit of problems in maintaining a working weapon while at the same time making the mark meaningful to law enforcement. Either way although the technology is theoretically possible, it certainly isn't commercially viable to have firearms manufacturers to modify future designs solely for a single market hence they are pulling out as guns fall off the approved list anytime the existing design is modified.


What is a file?
 
2014-01-25 06:13:42 PM  

bluejeansonfire: waiting periods


Why?  When have these ever been linked to crime?

Clutch2013: plutoniumfeather: Clutch2013: Daedalus27: Sorry Clutch2013, the shell casing.  Putting that on the bullet would likely lead to it being destroyed.

That's only marginally better. I'd still like an explanation as to how it works without losing the tag when the gun's fired.

the firing pin micro-imprints something on the primer when the bullet is fired, or something like that . . . so the empty shell casing can be tied to the gun. solution: use a revolver -- no shell casings to litter the crime scene. the DC police test-fire every weapon a civilian registers so that they can "match" the marks found on a fired bullet picked up at a crime scene with their library.  solution: clean your barrel, or use frangible ammo.

Well, DC's approach sounds a good bit better than California's.

And just out of rampant curiosity (because I'm not terribly comfortable with discussing ways to circumvent laws), wouldn't cleaning the barrel on a gun not have much impact if the gun were brand new or only mildly dirty, i.e. stuff that would probably leave with a bullet instead of staying behind on the gun?


The markings that a barrel leaves on a bullet can vary based on the type of bullet and the amount of rounds that go down the barrel.  The barrel can also be fouled and scratched, permanently altering the kinds of markings that the barrel leaves.  Barrels can also be replaced relatively easily and inexpensively.

And all of this is just conjecture, matching up a fired bullet (especially an expanding bullet) to the barrel based on the marks on the bullet is the stuff of CSI forensic nonsense.
 
2014-01-25 06:19:41 PM  
So the murder weapon was a shotgun. Biden told people to buy a shotgun. See what happens?
 
2014-01-25 06:22:48 PM  

TerminalEchoes: So the murder weapon was a shotgun. Biden told people to buy a shotgun. See what happens?


Now is not the time to talk about Biden-control.
 
2014-01-25 06:30:24 PM  

Snarcoleptic_Hoosier: Great Porn Dragon: Damn. That was insightful. You're getting a favorite color and my promise that when my paycheck gets posted Monday, a month of TF.

/Would sponsor now, but I have a case of the broke



I got him for ya. That post should be required reading for everyone entering fark gun threads.
 
2014-01-25 06:32:10 PM  

Fark It: bluejeansonfire: waiting periods

Why?  When have these ever been linked to crime?

Clutch2013: plutoniumfeather: Clutch2013: Daedalus27: Sorry Clutch2013, the shell casing.  Putting that on the bullet would likely lead to it being destroyed.

That's only marginally better. I'd still like an explanation as to how it works without losing the tag when the gun's fired.

the firing pin micro-imprints something on the primer when the bullet is fired, or something like that . . . so the empty shell casing can be tied to the gun. solution: use a revolver -- no shell casings to litter the crime scene. the DC police test-fire every weapon a civilian registers so that they can "match" the marks found on a fired bullet picked up at a crime scene with their library.  solution: clean your barrel, or use frangible ammo.

Well, DC's approach sounds a good bit better than California's.

And just out of rampant curiosity (because I'm not terribly comfortable with discussing ways to circumvent laws), wouldn't cleaning the barrel on a gun not have much impact if the gun were brand new or only mildly dirty, i.e. stuff that would probably leave with a bullet instead of staying behind on the gun?

The markings that a barrel leaves on a bullet can vary based on the type of bullet and the amount of rounds that go down the barrel.  The barrel can also be fouled and scratched, permanently altering the kinds of markings that the barrel leaves.  Barrels can also be replaced relatively easily and inexpensively.

And all of this is just conjecture, matching up a fired bullet (especially an expanding bullet) to the barrel based on the marks on the bullet is the stuff of CSI forensic nonsense.


Even if conjecture, the other guy was talking about cleaning a barrel to defeat that measure. My point was the only way that should work is if the barrel is so unbelievably fouled up that stuff is caking the rifling grooves. If the barrel's to that point anyway, you might start having bigger issues than worrying whether you're going to end up on a database.
 
2014-01-25 06:35:14 PM  

Clutch2013: plutoniumfeather: Clutch2013: Daedalus27: Sorry Clutch2013, the shell casing.  Putting that on the bullet would likely lead to it being destroyed.

That's only marginally better. I'd still like an explanation as to how it works without losing the tag when the gun's fired.

the firing pin micro-imprints something on the primer when the bullet is fired, or something like that . . . the DC police test-fire every weapon a civilian registers so that they can "match" the marks found on a fired bullet picked up at a crime scene with their library. . . .

Well, DC's approach sounds a good bit better than California's.

And just out of rampant curiosity (because I'm not terribly comfortable with discussing ways to circumvent laws), wouldn't cleaning the barrel on a gun not have much impact if the gun were brand new or only mildly dirty, i.e. stuff that would probably leave with a bullet instead of staying behind on the gun?


the theory is that every gun barrel leaves a unique scratch pattern on the bullets that travel through it.  and that bullets can be recovered at crime scenes (most of which don't have handy water tanks to slow and stop intact bullets) so the scratch pattern can be read.  but every time a gun is fired, it leaves a little schmutz (burned powder residue, bullet jacket material, and so on) in the barrel.  if the barrel isn't cleaned after every shot, the schmutz gets pushed along by the next bullet and creates its own scratches in the barrel.  after a few good long range sessions with different types of ammo and periodic cleaning with brushes and the occasional dab of bore paste, getting a "ballistics match" on the scratch pattern will become a very dubious proposition indeed.
 
2014-01-25 06:37:44 PM  

SurelyShirley: Parthenogenetic: The regime and its media allies want you to think we're the enemy, but we're the thin line of heroes that separates you from tyranny.

If the "regime" (which ever it may be) decides that tyranny seems like a good idea, they'll come to you with reapers and hellfire missiles. Before you and your band of heroes can yell "1776 will commence!" your entire block will go boom.


War our military does great, occupation work not so much, occupying their own country?  The brass better have sh*tters with grenade sumps.
 
gja [TotalFark]
2014-01-25 06:37:44 PM  

cameroncrazy1984: Gecko Gingrich: cameroncrazy1984: Because that's a pretty difficult thing to do?

cameroncrazy1984: Or, well, it should be if it's a legal shotgun with a 30" barrel.

Where have you heard that it's illegal to have a barrel shorter than 30"?

Well, at least in NY it is. I am actually not sure about Maryland. I assumed that was a common regulation.


WRONG. But this is hardly the first time I have caught you wrong or flat out fabricating.
POSSESSION-RIFLES AND SHOTGUNS
There is no state license requirement for the possession of a rifle or shotgun, so long as the rifle has barrel(s) at least 16 inches in length and the shotgun has barrel(s) at least 18 inches in length.
 
gja [TotalFark]
2014-01-25 06:42:15 PM  

cameroncrazy1984: Gecko Gingrich: cameroncrazy1984: Well, at least in NY it is. I am actually not sure about Maryland. I assumed that was a common regulation.

You have a cite for that? Perusing the SAFE Act I can find no such provision, nor in the rest of NY's laws. In fact, everything I can find indicates that NY follows the Federal guidelines of nothing shorter than 18" barrel/26" total length.

Maybe the 26" total length is what I was thinking. I was looking at Gander Mountain for hunting shotguns a couple months ago (I have some friends that are into duck hunting and we were just talking about it)

Mea culpa.


LOLofficiallyscrewed.com
 
2014-01-25 06:42:23 PM  

plutoniumfeather: the theory is that every gun barrel leaves a unique scratch pattern on the bullets that travel through it.  and that bullets can be recovered at crime scenes (most of which don't have handy water tanks to slow and stop intact bullets) so the scratch pattern can be read.  but every time a gun is fired, it leaves a little schmutz (burned powder residue, bullet jacket material, and so on) in the barrel.  if the barrel isn't cleaned after every shot, the schmutz gets pushed along by the next bullet and creates its own scratches in the barrel.  after a few good long range sessions with different types of ammo and periodic cleaning with brushes and the occasional dab of bore paste, getting a "ballistics match" on the scratch pattern will become a very dubious proposition indeed.


i184.photobucket.com
 
2014-01-25 06:46:04 PM  

bluejeansonfire: Reasonable gun legislation would include background checks and waiting periods, at the very least. The fact that the bill proposing any background checks at all failed out the gate is a horrifying testament to our passivity about this.


The vast majority of all gun purchases are background-checked:

* any sale from a licensed dealer to anyone (yes, even at gun shows)
* any sale across state lines (yes, even Internet sales)
* any sale required by a state to involve a background check, even if the feds don't require one

The rules are IIRC a tiny bit looser for rifles and shotguns than for handguns (in that you can go to another state and buy a rifle directly from a federally-licensed dealer without a transfer to an in-state dealer first -- but you have to have a background check in either case).

The only gun transfers that do not require a background check are private-party in-state transfers in states that don't require background checks.

As for waiting periods, why do you hate battered women?
 
2014-01-25 06:49:57 PM  

SurelyShirley: Parthenogenetic: The regime and its media allies want you to think we're the enemy, but we're the thin line of heroes that separates you from tyranny.

If the "regime" (which ever it may be) decides that tyranny seems like a good idea, they'll come to you with reapers and hellfire missiles. Before you and your band of heroes can yell "1776 will commence!" your entire block will go boom.


If TSHTF in that respect, you will never see the anti-gun fantasy battle of a bunch of gun nuts marching in a skirmish line against armor and air support.  It will not even be attempted.
 
2014-01-25 07:03:00 PM  

plutoniumfeather: Clutch2013: plutoniumfeather: Clutch2013: Daedalus27: Sorry Clutch2013, the shell casing.  Putting that on the bullet would likely lead to it being destroyed.

That's only marginally better. I'd still like an explanation as to how it works without losing the tag when the gun's fired.

the firing pin micro-imprints something on the primer when the bullet is fired, or something like that . . . the DC police test-fire every weapon a civilian registers so that they can "match" the marks found on a fired bullet picked up at a crime scene with their library. . . .

Well, DC's approach sounds a good bit better than California's.

And just out of rampant curiosity (because I'm not terribly comfortable with discussing ways to circumvent laws), wouldn't cleaning the barrel on a gun not have much impact if the gun were brand new or only mildly dirty, i.e. stuff that would probably leave with a bullet instead of staying behind on the gun?

the theory is that every gun barrel leaves a unique scratch pattern on the bullets that travel through it.  and that bullets can be recovered at crime scenes (most of which don't have handy water tanks to slow and stop intact bullets) so the scratch pattern can be read.  but every time a gun is fired, it leaves a little schmutz (burned powder residue, bullet jacket material, and so on) in the barrel.  if the barrel isn't cleaned after every shot, the schmutz gets pushed along by the next bullet and creates its own scratches in the barrel.  after a few good long range sessions with different types of ammo and periodic cleaning with brushes and the occasional dab of bore paste, getting a "ballistics match" on the scratch pattern will become a very dubious proposition indeed.


Okay, but by matching barrel to bullet, I think they're talking at exit. I would think that assuming they get this at the time the gun's new and the owner/s don't allow it to get so dirty that it starts gouging out marks in the barrel, a cleaning wouldn't make a ton of difference.

Ammo, obviously, is another story.
 
2014-01-25 07:03:49 PM  

serial_crusher: Murder-suicide counts as a news flash now? Should we just unplug the clock all together?


Jesus, THIS. Ditch the f*cking clock already.
 
2014-01-25 07:06:19 PM  

Clutch2013: plutoniumfeather: Clutch2013: plutoniumfeather: Clutch2013: Daedalus27: Sorry Clutch2013, the shell casing.  Putting that on the bullet would likely lead to it being destroyed.

That's only marginally better. I'd still like an explanation as to how it works without losing the tag when the gun's fired.

the firing pin micro-imprints something on the primer when the bullet is fired, or something like that . . . the DC police test-fire every weapon a civilian registers so that they can "match" the marks found on a fired bullet picked up at a crime scene with their library. . . .

Well, DC's approach sounds a good bit better than California's.

And just out of rampant curiosity (because I'm not terribly comfortable with discussing ways to circumvent laws), wouldn't cleaning the barrel on a gun not have much impact if the gun were brand new or only mildly dirty, i.e. stuff that would probably leave with a bullet instead of staying behind on the gun?

the theory is that every gun barrel leaves a unique scratch pattern on the bullets that travel through it.  and that bullets can be recovered at crime scenes (most of which don't have handy water tanks to slow and stop intact bullets) so the scratch pattern can be read.  but every time a gun is fired, it leaves a little schmutz (burned powder residue, bullet jacket material, and so on) in the barrel.  if the barrel isn't cleaned after every shot, the schmutz gets pushed along by the next bullet and creates its own scratches in the barrel.  after a few good long range sessions with different types of ammo and periodic cleaning with brushes and the occasional dab of bore paste, getting a "ballistics match" on the scratch pattern will become a very dubious proposition indeed.

Okay, but by matching barrel to bullet, I think they're talking at exit. I would think that assuming they get this at the time the gun's new and the owner/s don't allow it to get so dirty that it starts gouging out marks in the barrel, a cleaning wouldn't make a ton of difference.

Ammo, obviously, is another story.


It only takes a day or two f shooting to make a big difference.
 
2014-01-25 07:07:32 PM  

John Buck 41: serial_crusher: Murder-suicide counts as a news flash now? Should we just unplug the clock all together?

Jesus, THIS. Ditch the f*cking clock already.


Nobody knew what was going on for a while.  Initial reports were active shooter.  People were hiding and unable to leave the mall for hours.

Sorry the phrase inconvenienced you.

/not subby
 
2014-01-25 07:09:09 PM  

Confabulat: AngryDragon: Confabulat: Tadpole: This was likely a murder suicide of a bad love triangle. Jilted lover seeks revenge. This belongs on Dateline not Newsflash.

Pretty sad state of affairs when  a guy shooting up a mall isn't considered newsworthy to Americans anymore.

3 dead including the shooter isn't "shooting up a mall".  It's probably a domestic dispute or a robbery gone wrong.  Given the use of a farking shotgun, I'm guessing domestic.

It still TOOK PLACE IN A MALL. Some of you seem to think thats normal.


Ok, you love malls and don't want bad things to happen in them. We GET that. And speaking of normal, where exactly would be a 'normal' place to kill 2 other people and then take your own life? Convo store? Best Buy? Gas station? Bookstore? Movie theater? School?

OH NOES THE MALLZ
 
2014-01-25 07:10:24 PM  

Great Porn Dragon: cameroncrazy1984: The_Sponge: cameroncrazy1984: Sounds like Glock will have to manufacture a new magazine, then.


Nope....because Congress is not interested in passing ridiculous gun laws....like the ones you are suggesting.

Ridiculous? NY State passed a very similar gun law (actually, it went further than the one I suggested by banning certain types of features on certain weapons) and it was recently upheld as Constitutional. Doesn't seem so ridiculous to me.

And I bet he'd REALLY hate my own modest proposal (which, unlike some of the NRA's fantasies, is actually backed up with historical context re gun laws in Revolutionary-era America).  (Yes, kids--time to trot out GPD's proposal for a model Modern Well-Regulated Militia Amendment.)

Pretty much most gun policy seems to be centered around two primary assumptions:

1) (anti-gun) The "Well-regulated militia" in the Constitution is the National Guard and nobody has any business having shooty-things unless they are law enforcement.

2) (hyper-pro-gun) GAWD AND THOMAS JEFFERSON INTENDED US TO HAVE AN ARSENAL GODDAMNIT IN CASE THE GOVERNMENT GOES ROGUE AND WE HAS TO WATER THE TREE OF LIBURTY.

Rather more accurate is Option 3 which NOBODY ever mentions EVAR:

3) The US Army did not exist in peacetime and law enforcement as we know it now did not exist at the time (and would not exist until the 1840s), hence the only way to put down a domestic insurrection or even a criminal gang (much less incursions from First Nations and the like)...was, quite literally, calling up a posse (the "unorganised militia" in question).

3a) The part nobody ever, EVER mentions--this was in fact a neutering of an older provision in the Articles of Confederation (the "First Constitution" that had the US organised in a very European Union-esque confederacy of what amounted to thirteen distinct and separate countries with a currency union and a common defense and foreign policy) that not only mandated that every competent adult male be expl ...


i1208.photobucket.com
 
2014-01-25 07:11:25 PM  

John Buck 41: Confabulat: AngryDragon: Confabulat: Tadpole: This was likely a murder suicide of a bad love triangle. Jilted lover seeks revenge. This belongs on Dateline not Newsflash.

Pretty sad state of affairs when  a guy shooting up a mall isn't considered newsworthy to Americans anymore.

3 dead including the shooter isn't "shooting up a mall".  It's probably a domestic dispute or a robbery gone wrong.  Given the use of a farking shotgun, I'm guessing domestic.

It still TOOK PLACE IN A MALL. Some of you seem to think thats normal.

Ok, you love malls and don't want bad things to happen in them. We GET that. And speaking of normal, where exactly would be a 'normal' place to kill 2 other people and then take your own life? Convo store? Best Buy? Gas station? Bookstore? Movie theater? School?

OH NOES THE MALLZ


Just a bunch of clothing store and fatty shops. Ban them already. No one needs a mall.
 
2014-01-25 07:12:43 PM  

lordjupiter: John Buck 41: serial_crusher: Murder-suicide counts as a news flash now? Should we just unplug the clock all together?

Jesus, THIS. Ditch the f*cking clock already.

Nobody knew what was going on for a while.  Initial reports were active shooter.  People were hiding and unable to leave the mall for hours.

Sorry the phrase inconvenienced you.

/not subby


Jesus. Excuse me for pissing you off, not-subby.
 
2014-01-25 07:29:37 PM  

Kensey: But there have been other instances of registration lists used to confiscate weapons newly made illegal, so the general point still stands.


There have? Then why have they never been posted.

The only thing even remotely close was Hurricane Katrina. And that was deemed a disaster time or some shiat.
 
2014-01-25 07:32:10 PM  
America, you are a sick, farked up country.  You take this kind of daily gun violence like it's something that's normal.  Every other civilized country in the world doesn't have this shiat happen nearly so often as you.  And that's a serious understatement.  It hardly happens at all in other countries.  Just in you, America.

So go on, tell me how having some sensible gun laws "takes away freedom".  I'll be sitting here, counting the seconds until the next time this happens in your stupid assed, farked up country.
 
2014-01-25 07:32:22 PM  

John Buck 41: lordjupiter: John Buck 41: serial_crusher: Murder-suicide counts as a news flash now? Should we just unplug the clock all together?

Jesus, THIS. Ditch the f*cking clock already.

Nobody knew what was going on for a while.  Initial reports were active shooter.  People were hiding and unable to leave the mall for hours.

Sorry the phrase inconvenienced you.

/not subby

Jesus. Excuse me for pissing you off, not-subby.



Meh.  Yo mama.

/not really into it
 
2014-01-25 07:37:52 PM  

2wolves: Triumph: Cops have a robot in there checking the shooter for booby-traps like he's the Joker.

If you get all dressed up to go to the dance you're going to want to boogie.


Going Plaxico style?
 
2014-01-25 07:38:08 PM  

mudesi: America, you are a sick, farked up country.  You take this kind of daily gun violence like it's something that's normal.  Every other civilized country in the world doesn't have this shiat happen nearly so often as you.  And that's a serious understatement.  It hardly happens at all in other countries.  Just in you, America.

So go on, tell me how having some sensible gun laws "takes away freedom".  I'll be sitting here, counting the seconds until the next time this happens in your stupid assed, farked up country.


2/10 came on too hard and the absolutism is the giveaway
 
2014-01-25 07:46:02 PM  
My guess - domestic, but the guy at the store was in the way.
 
2014-01-25 08:00:37 PM  

Dr Jack Badofsky: 2wolves: Triumph: Cops have a robot in there checking the shooter for booby-traps like he's the Joker.

If you get all dressed up to go to the dance you're going to want to boogie.

Going Plaxico style?


No.  I meant that all these local popo, with these wonderful toys, have to use them or all those anti-terrorism dollars were wasted.
 
2014-01-25 08:22:31 PM  

Glitchwerks: StreetlightInTheGhetto: //can't even safely GIS "cute bunny"

[livedoor.blogimg.jp image 600x600]
Just FYI, don't search for "otter" with safe search off either.


Umm... I just get pictures of otters.   What weird search engine are you using?
 
2014-01-25 08:34:04 PM  
there are no winners here.

liberals will be mad it was a love triangle and not random

conservatives will be mad it wasn't gang bangers
 
2014-01-25 08:45:05 PM  

StoPPeRmobile: SurelyShirley: Parthenogenetic: The regime and its media allies want you to think we're the enemy, but we're the thin line of heroes that separates you from tyranny.

If the "regime" (which ever it may be) decides that tyranny seems like a good idea, they'll come to you with reapers and hellfire missiles. Before you and your band of heroes can yell "1776 will commence!" your entire block will go boom.

How's things in Afghanistan?


Check it out. I think you'd dig Jalalabad. You could do well there.
 
2014-01-25 08:49:28 PM  

Pichu0102: Criminals' guns don't spawn from a void, you know.


They don't. But taking away  law abiding citizens' guns will not have any significant impact on criminals' guns. Criminal elements are not going to turn in their guns just because the government says to. That will be less successful than gun buy-back programs.
 
2014-01-25 09:05:18 PM  

cameroncrazy1984: Kensey: Dimensio: fluffy2097: KIA: Didn't Maryland just make all that shiat illegal?  What a bunch of criminals!

It's almost as if criminals were people who didn't follow the law!

/We should make a law to stop them.

Obviously, current firearm laws are insufficient. The state recently enacted an "assault weapons ban"; that this incident occurred is demonstration that the "ban" should be expanded to all semi-automatic rifles.

Difficulty: the shooter apparently used a shotgun.

Had he used something like an AR-15 with a 30-round mag, he probably would have killed more than 3 people, no?


Doubtful, it appears that he went there intending to kill two people and himself. That is exactly what he did.

Oh and by the way, 

HairyNevus: Why does everyone keep saying it happened at the food court? TFA has stated it happened at Zumiez the whole time.

Need more information to come out, but I'm a little surprised this dude made it far into the mall with a shotgun. Of course, there's always that weirdo who wears a trench coat to the mall, but I always had security on my ass when I tried that.

/never brought a shotgun


This particular mall has a walkway around the outside of the second floor with doors leading into the backrooms of the stores.  The store employees use these doors to get to dumpsters etc.  A witness saw the man coming out of the backroom of the store where the shooting occurred.  My guess is he carried the gun disassembled in some kind of bag, assembled it on the walkway which is generally not used and entered the mall through the back door to the store.  I assumed he either hung out at the store with the woman he shot when they were together of he worked at the store himself in the past and new which was the correct door and that it wasn't generally locked.
 
2014-01-25 09:17:53 PM  
Reposted to correct some errors

cameroncrazy1984:
Kensey: Dimensio: fluffy2097: KIA: Didn't Maryland just make all that shiat illegal?  What a bunch of criminals!

It's almost as if criminals were people who didn't follow the law!

/We should make a law to stop them.

Obviously, current firearm laws are insufficient. The state recently enacted an "assault weapons ban"; that this incident occurred is demonstration that the "ban" should be expanded to all semi-automatic rifles.

Difficulty: the shooter apparently used a shotgun.

Had he used something like an AR-15 with a 30-round mag, he probably would have killed more than 3 people, no?

Doubtful, it appears that he went there intending to kill two people and himself. That is exactly what he did.


HairyNevus: Why does everyone keep saying it happened at the food court? TFA has stated it happened at Zumiez the whole time.

The store is located near the food court but on the floor above, Most of the witnesses were in the food court and heard the shots but never saw the shooters.  Determining where a shot came from is difficult in general, inside a building with echos it is even harder.  They assumed the shooting happened closer to them then it actually did.

Need more information to come out, but I'm a little surprised this dude made it far into the mall with a shotgun. Of course, there's always that weirdo who wears a trench coat to the mall, but I always had security on my ass when I tried that.

/never brought a shotgun


This particular mall has a walkway around the outside of the second floor with doors leading into the backrooms of the stores.  The store employees use these doors to get to dumpsters etc.  A witness saw the man coming out of the backroom of the store where the shooting occurred.  My guess is he carried the gun disassembled in some kind of bag, assembled it on the walkway which is generally not used and entered the mall through the back door to the store.  I assumed he either hung out at the store with the woman he shot when they were together of he worked at the store himself in the past and new which was the correct door and that it wasn't generally locked.
 
2014-01-25 09:36:16 PM  

Errk: (tl;dr comment redacted to save the electrons.  WON'T SOMEONE THINK OF THE ELECTRONS)


Cliff's Notes version for people who can't be arsed to read a post with some historical context and who tend to find the average Skrillex song overly complex in its lyrical content:

The US Constitution specifies a "well regulated militia" in the 2nd Amendment, and the Founding Fathers actually had some ideas on what was meant by "well regulated" that don't quite match up with some gun lobbyists' definitions.  (Basically, back then cops and standing armies didn't exist, so they expected people to be explicitly trained in a State Army of sorts to be called up in case the NDNs or the British came a-knocking.)

My proposal, in a nutshell--Let's specifically pass some laws (or a Constitutional amendment, even better) to specify what is meant by "well regulated", seeing as the Founding Fathers (like all too much of us) assumed what was meant and it's generally made an ass of you, me, and the United States in general.

My proposal for "well regulated": Make people take some solid gun safety and handling courses (like Hunter Safety Courses or CCW training--yes, I'm proposing expanding CCW training courses for EVERYONE) to legally have a firearm.  (Maybe even CCW courses for handguns, and Hunter Safety courses for longarms.)  Take the test every two years to keep said weapon.  Part of the "test" involves mandatory background checks to make sure you've not been convicted of a violent felony (and prohibited from gun ownership) or Baker Acted in the past two years, and some physical checkup requirements to make sure that you can actually see to shoot and to control a gun...basically what the Armed Forces uses to make sure you aren't 4-F, aside from the checking for flat feet and weight limits.

This actually gets back to what the Founding Fathers were really going after, which was more like how Switzerland is now without the unfunded mandate of handing an AR-15 to every US male between 18-45 who isn't severely visually impaired and hasn't been declared mentally incompetent. :D
 
2014-01-25 09:46:00 PM  

mudesi: America, you are a sick, farked up country.  You take this kind of daily gun violence like it's something that's normal.  Every other civilized country in the world doesn't have this shiat happen nearly so often as you.  And that's a serious understatement.  It hardly happens at all in other countries.  Just in you, America.

So go on, tell me how having some sensible gun laws "takes away freedom".  I'll be sitting here, counting the seconds until the next time this happens in your stupid assed, farked up country.



Here is the thing, the US has a population 314m or so people.  The US also has a history of private firearms ownership and enshrined that in as a basic tenant of governance.  Therefore there is a proliferation of weapons unlike most other countries.  These conditions make it highly unlikely that these incidents would occur in other countries because there simply isn't the foundation present.  As such it doesn't take much for a horrible incident to galvanize the public to take away a right that the people haven't really had a cultural experience with.

You also have to combine these factors with the fact that the USA is saturated with media so almost every small incident as well as the large incidents are heavily publicized.  Three people dying in a murder suicide sparked this thread but I would bet there were several other incidents around the world of the same nature (maybe not with a firearm) that we just don't hear about because it is a local story that doesn't expand beyond the local market. Not to trivialize it, but a pervasive national and international media looking for stories is going to grab gun incidents before other things because they are ready made to kill time and sensationalize things.  If it bleeds, it leads is a time honored tradition in media.

This isn't to say that gun violence isn't an issue.  It is a horrible tragedy when these incidents happen. However, if you magically stopped all further gun sales in the US today and ordered the government confiscation of all privately held firearms, there would still be tens if not hundreds of millions of firearms that would still be in circulation.  This would also make felons of millions of private citizens who would disagree with the policy and want to protect themselves or others in the future while leaving the rest exposed to firearms held by people more apt to use them for wrongful purposes. The USA is an outlier in many respects and there is no easy solution available unlike other nations without the history and baggage of years and years of permissive firearms ownership.
 
2014-01-25 09:48:26 PM  

HK-MP5-SD: The store is located near the food court but on the floor above, Most of the witnesses were in the food court and heard the shots but never saw the shooters.  Determining where a shot came from is difficult in general, inside a building with echos it is even harder.  They assumed the shooting happened closer to them then it actually did.


Also, the upper floor is really just a walkway around the outside of the second level. The middle is open and looks down on the food court area. Like so:

upload.wikimedia.org

This area is around the corner from the food court.

If the gunman was looking to inflict mass casualties, he could have started firing down into the food court area from the upper level.

This particular mall has a walkway around the outside of the second floor with doors leading into the backrooms of the stores.  The store employees use these doors to get to dumpsters etc.  A witness saw the man coming out of the backroom of the store where the shooting occurred.  My guess is he carried the gun disassembled in some kind of bag, assembled it on the walkway which is generally not used and entered the mall through the back door to the store.  I assumed he either hung out at the store with the woman he shot when they were together of he worked at the store himself in the past and new which was the correct door and that it wasn't generally locked.

The doors are labelled with the store's name, or at least they were when last I was back there. The back doors were also used for big deliveries (giggity) and smoke breaks.

It's also entirely possible that the guy entered the back room from inside the store. Most of those stores have restrooms in the back area. If he knew the victims (which seems likely), he may have simply asked to use the can.

/My store, at the time, was below the Zumiez and across from the McDonalds.
//Rent increase drove us out of business.
 
2014-01-25 09:53:15 PM  

storm16: Pichu0102: Criminals' guns don't spawn from a void, you know.

They don't. But taking away  law abiding citizens' guns will not have any significant impact on criminals' guns. Criminal elements are not going to turn in their guns just because the government says to. That will be less successful than gun buy-back programs.


Guns already in the wild are already there. I'm proposing a situation where existing guns are destroyed or fail more than new guns are produced, thus diminishing supply over time, and making them harder for random criminals to get ahold of, for instance, in gangs or similar organized crime where the guns are disposable as the people who are to receive them are, in the eyes of who gets them.
 
2014-01-25 09:56:58 PM  

Great Porn Dragon: Errk: (tl;dr comment redacted to save the electrons.  WON'T SOMEONE THINK OF THE ELECTRONS)

Cliff's Notes version for people who can't be arsed to read a post with some historical context and who tend to find the average Skrillex song overly complex in its lyrical content:

The US Constitution specifies a "well regulated militia" in the 2nd Amendment, and the Founding Fathers actually had some ideas on what was meant by "well regulated" that don't quite match up with some gun lobbyists' definitions.  (Basically, back then cops and standing armies didn't exist, so they expected people to be explicitly trained in a State Army of sorts to be called up in case the NDNs or the British came a-knocking.)

My proposal, in a nutshell--Let's specifically pass some laws (or a Constitutional amendment, even better) to specify what is meant by "well regulated", seeing as the Founding Fathers (like all too much of us) assumed what was meant and it's generally made an ass of you, me, and the United States in general.

My proposal for "well regulated": Make people take some solid gun safety and handling courses (like Hunter Safety Courses or CCW training--yes, I'm proposing expanding CCW training courses for EVERYONE) to legally have a firearm.  (Maybe even CCW courses for handguns, and Hunter Safety courses for longarms.)  Take the test every two years to keep said weapon.  Part of the "test" involves mandatory background checks to make sure you've not been convicted of a violent felony (and prohibited from gun ownership) or Baker Acted in the past two years, and some physical checkup requirements to make sure that you can actually see to shoot and to control a gun...basically what the Armed Forces uses to make sure you aren't 4-F, aside from the checking for flat feet and weight limits.

This actually gets back to what the Founding Fathers were really going after, which was more like how Switzerland is now without the unfunded mandate of handing an AR-15 to every US male between ...


While a solid proposal, when you impose a test, it is ready made for abuse.  Try getting a CCW permit in a place like Los Angeles County vs any county is a state like Utah for an example. You may meet the exact same standards but one place will not issue anything while the other will freely. Testing means it can be tweaked to reduce or eliminate the likelihood that anyone could actually utilize a right that is freely available on paper depending on who enforces or issues the right.  If you want an example of this, look to the literacy tests and poll taxes the Southern States utilized to disenfranchise minorities from voting (even if enshrined in law that voting was allowed if these simple requirements were followed). What is on paper may not be what happens in practice.

If the standard was fairly applied nationwide with no possibility of modification or amendment without eliminating the restriction altogether as a poison pill, then perhaps there could be some movement toward this. However, I fear that the first time there was another horrible mass shooting, the requirements would be altered and adjusted so that the ability to purchase a weapon would be restricted or ultimately eliminated. Once restrictions are in place, it is generally easier to add to them rather than eliminate them. There are just too many individuals eager to remove all firearms except from the government or the private/public security they use to protect themselves to trust that the standard would remain static and available to citizens who presently can purchase weapons.
 
2014-01-25 10:08:14 PM  

AngryDragon: Confabulat: Tadpole: This was likely a murder suicide of a bad love triangle. Jilted lover seeks revenge. This belongs on Dateline not Newsflash.

Pretty sad state of affairs when  a guy shooting up a mall isn't considered newsworthy to Americans anymore.

3 dead including the shooter isn't "shooting up a mall".  It's probably a domestic dispute or a robbery gone wrong.  Given the use of a farking shotgun, I'm guessing domestic.


I bet he was handing out some righteous justice to the big mean bullies who had been stealing his lunch money. Which, according to fark, means the killings were both justified and unavoidable.
 
2014-01-25 10:08:51 PM  

robertus: HK-MP5-SD: The store is located near the food court but on the floor above, Most of the witnesses were in the food court and heard the shots but never saw the shooters.  Determining where a shot came from is difficult in general, inside a building with echos it is even harder.  They assumed the shooting happened closer to them then it actually did.

Also, the upper floor is really just a walkway around the outside of the second level. The middle is open and looks down on the food court area. Like so:

[upload.wikimedia.org image 288x216]

This area is around the corner from the food court.

If the gunman was looking to inflict mass casualties, he could have started firing down into the food court area from the upper level.

This particular mall has a walkway around the outside of the second floor with doors leading into the backrooms of the stores.  The store employees use these doors to get to dumpsters etc.  A witness saw the man coming out of the backroom of the store where the shooting occurred.  My guess is he carried the gun disassembled in some kind of bag, assembled it on the walkway which is generally not used and entered the mall through the back door to the store.  I assumed he either hung out at the store with the woman he shot when they were together of he worked at the store himself in the past and new which was the correct door and that it wasn't generally locked.

The doors are labelled with the store's name, or at least they were when last I was back there. The back doors were also used for big deliveries (giggity) and smoke breaks.

It's also entirely possible that the guy entered the back room from inside the store. Most of those stores have restrooms in the back area. If he knew the victims (which seems likely), he may have simply asked to use the can.

/My store, at the time, was below the Zumiez and across from the McDonalds.
//Rent increase drove us out of business.


at the Gardens Mall in Palm Beach Gardens, FL it would be possible to stand in the doorway of the second floor Starbucks and shoot someone inside the first floor Starbucks.

i1207.photobucket.com
 
2014-01-25 10:15:03 PM  
I just hope that somehow to remember the victims of this tragedy we can somehow take freedoms from others.
 
2014-01-25 10:17:52 PM  

Pichu0102: Guns already in the wild are already there. I'm proposing a situation where existing guns are destroyed or fail more than new guns are produced, thus diminishing supply over time, and making them harder for random criminals to get ahold of, for instance, in gangs or similar organized crime where the guns are disposable as the people who are to receive them are, in the eyes of who gets them.


Okay, so where do you propose to get this supply of guns to destroy? The only other readily available supply I can think of is to take them out of the hands of law-abiding citizens. And that would be unacceptable, as it would leave the authorities and the criminals armed and everyone else a potential victim of either.
 
2014-01-25 10:29:08 PM  

justtray: Kensey: But there have been other instances of registration lists used to confiscate weapons newly made illegal, so the general point still stands.

There have? Then why have they never been posted.

The only thing even remotely close was Hurricane Katrina. And that was deemed a disaster time or some shiat.


Recently, there's that one and also the incident in High River, Alberta, where the RCMP pretty openly went around collecting guns so they could keep them locked up after the town was flooded.  As I recall there was some pretty nasty stuff going on in the segregated South where registration laws were used to find out which blacks had guns and take them away (or take them away for being unregistered if they were discovered otherwise).
 
2014-01-25 10:32:56 PM  

Daedalus27: While a solid proposal, when you impose a test, it is ready made for abuse. Try getting a CCW permit in a place like Los Angeles County vs any county is a state like Utah for an example. You may meet the exact same standards but one place will not issue anything while the other will freely. Testing means it can be tweaked to reduce or eliminate the likelihood that anyone could actually utilize a right that is freely available on paper depending on who enforces or issues the right. If you want an example of this, look to the literacy tests and poll taxes the Southern States utilized to disenfranchise minorities from voting (even if enshrined in law that voting was allowed if these simple requirements were followed). What is on paper may not be what happens in practice.

If the standard was fairly applied nationwide with no possibility of modification or amendment without eliminating the restriction altogether as a poison pill, then perhaps there could be some movement toward this. However, I fear that the first time there was another horrible mass shooting, the requirements would be altered and adjusted so that the ability to purchase a weapon would be restricted or ultimately eliminated. Once restrictions are in place, it is generally easier to add to them rather than eliminate them. There are just too many individuals eager to remove all firearms except from the government or the private/public security they use to protect themselves to trust that the standard would remain static and available to citizens who presently can purchase weapons.


And as I've tried to note before...my proposal (at least how I'd propose it, anyways) would be two-pronged:

a) IF you have successfully passed the equivalent of a CCW course (and background check shows no felonies and no physical disabilities that would preclude using a gun and no history within the past two years of involuntary commitment or failure to take treatment for mental illness)...then essentially it would be treated as a "must issue" permit.  And I'm NOT talking about the shiat they pull in some cities and states (which IS legitimately ornerous)--the standard I am using is, quite literally, what is legally required for a CCW permit or a Hunter Safety Course in Kentucky.  (People who like guns should LIKE this.  Kentucky is a Must Issue state for CCWs once you've passed the test (again, assuming no felony convictions or being Baker Acted), and the requirements are to attend a handgun safety and marksmanship course which includes specific training on how to handle and fire a gun effectively and without injuring yourself in the process and have an exam where you show knowledge of proper safety and gunmanship and can show you ARE capable of aiming a gun and using it for its intended purpose.  It's pretty much bog-standard NRA handgun safety training that's required for a CCW in this state, really.)

b) Pretty much to PREVENT such sillybuggers on either end (to prevent de facto bans on one end, and prevent de facto "about as much regulation as occurs in private sales at gun shows, which is to say, Sweet Fark All" on the other)...this would be a national guideline, which is one reason I pretty much proposed making it a Constitutional Amendment.  One would need to word it very specifically, and I'm tending to approach this from the perspective of "bugfixing the Constitution to note what the Founding Fathers intended".

c) In a properly worded amendment one might actually have MORE ammo to fight ornerous de facto gun bans whilst doing what we can to keep weapons out of the hands of those who don't need to be handling anything more dangerous than a stuffed animal (and here, I'm not just talking about crazy people with guns; a non-negligible proportion of gun deaths are, unfortunately, from kids who end up shooting themselves or others because the Supposedly Responsible Adult did not secure the guns properly when not in use...and for the record, Switzerland (which DOES mandate gun ownership, and which actually issues full-auto military weapons to every male between the ages of 18 and 45 which they get to keep after they finish military duty) DOES have very, very strict laws about HOW weapons must be stored when not in use and people can get in SERIOUS farking trouble for, say, leaving guns in reach of children).

Yes, I know it's not a perfect world.  Yes, I know that humans (and politicians in particular) are in fact bastard-flavoured bastards with bastard filling and bastard sprinkles on top.  Yes, I know my proposal has about as much chance in the present political environment of a de facto Civil Cold War as the NHL has of setting up a hockey team in Hades.  What it's meant for is as a way to start dialogue towards a middle where the intent of the Founding Fathers is protected (and people who have proven themselves to be Responsible Adults can still own firearms and use them for protection and/or putting food on the table and/or target practice) whilst we minimise the risk inherent with firearms ownership...by making sure that people know how to use the farking things responsibly and actually get some basic training in their use and safe storage beforehand.

(And no, I'm not all that sympathetic to the "BUT BUT SECOND AMENDMENT!" argument, seeing as the Second Amendment was a neutering of the original Articles of Confederation's Article VI which had Swiss-style mandated draft of all adult men in a state army, required states to maintain armories that dispensed weapons, and required all men to muster for training for two weeks a year (pretty much what the National Guard does now, in fact).  The subsequent Militia Acts pretty much firmed up the whole purpose was essentially "Swiss-style state defense if we can't raise the Army fast enough".

(I'm also a bit less sympathetic as I am an amateur radio operator--we have a First Amendment, too, but amateur radio operators are not exactly allowed to operate willy-nilly on the airwaves.  We're required to follow some basic codes of conduct, and we're required to get some training first so we can know how to build and operate our equipment so that it's not blocking everyone ELSE from using the airwaves.  (This is also why amateur radio operators ARE allowed to build their own equipment, whereas GMRS/FRS radio users and MURS radio users and CB radio users are not.  We've basically got the extra training on how to do it competently and not make a radio into a splatterbox.)  And yes, the reason we have radio regulation is because there WERE people in the old days who pretty much shat the bed for everyone else--in particular, a certain televangelist by the name of Aimee Semple McPherson was almost singlehandedly responsible for the Telecommunications Act of 1934's provisions of the FCC having actual enforcement power for violating laws.  Yes, McPherson tried the First Amendment argument (twice over, even--essentially claiming the rules where she had to stay on one broadcast frequency and NOT interfere with other broadcasters were an infringement on freedom of speech AND freedom of religion); the courts were not entirely amused with this argument.)
 
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