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(BBC)   Customer: "Hi, I'd like to withdraw some money from my bank account please." Bank Teller: "Nope, unless you can tell us what it's for; and show us an itemized receipt or quote of expenses"   (bbc.co.uk) divider line 122
    More: Scary, HSBC, bank teller, bank accounts, cash withdrawals  
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18923 clicks; posted to Main » on 25 Jan 2014 at 12:11 PM (26 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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KIA
2014-01-25 01:06:54 PM

The_Philosopher_King: At least in the USA we don't limit you.

But we may just seize it all.

http://www.wxyz.com/dpp/news/region/macomb_county/grocer-accuses-fed s- of-seizing-his-bank-account-for-no-good-reason-in-lawsuit


Actually, they file reports with the FBI on large cash withdrawals.
 
2014-01-25 01:07:23 PM

IanMoone: I'm surprised banks in the US don't do this yet.


They do.

Mainly because attorneys have argued in court that if a bank doesn't try to stop Grandma from withdrawing her life savings and wiring it to her grandson in Costa Rica who got busted for DUI and lost his passport, well.....that's the banks fault and they need to reimburse Grandma.

Nope.

US banks are required by the Bank Secrecy Act (as amended by the PATRIOT Act) to submit all cash transactions over $10k to FinCEN, the Treasury Department's law enforcement agency.

No reporting requirement currently exists in the UK, but transactions over £10k will be subject to enhanced diligence by the bank.

In both cases, a refusal to comply with the additional diligence requirements will result in the bank (or other financial organisation) refusing to process the transaction.
 
2014-01-25 01:10:12 PM
It's just a way to stop people from withdrawing funds. Frustrate them.

Now, the question of the day is: Why are they trying to stop people from withdrawing funds?

Scary answer: The don't have the fungible resources to cover them. They lost it.
 
2014-01-25 01:10:52 PM
All part of the banks' ongoing attempt to shift all risk and responsibility for banking onto the consumer rather than the bank.  As usual, Mitchell and Webb have covered it brilliantly:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CS9ptA3Ya9E
 
2014-01-25 01:11:54 PM

Malacon: I wish I could remember the details (it's been over a decade) but I want to say it was over $5k in cash or $10k in a bank check. It was a federal law, not a bank one, and was intended to keep tabs on possible money laundering or something...



Sounds like the Bank Secrecy Act. The thing is, the threshold has never been adjusted for inflation and there is no indication it will be in the foreseeable future. The limit introduced in 1970 is $10,000, equivalent to $60,000 today yet the threshold remains at $10k. By the time I'm old enough to retire I expect banks will be required to report when I withdraw cash to buy groceries. But the NSA will probably know about it before the the bank employees do.
 
2014-01-25 01:12:59 PM
That's the same bank that got caught red handed with laundered cartel money, wasn't it?

Looks like they're playing it safe this time lol.
 
2014-01-25 01:14:16 PM

Katrushkak: Malacon: When I worked as a Teller (at HSBC, actually) we had to fill out paperwork which we just referred to as the "Large Dollar" form when someone took out cash over a certain number or a bank check over a certain dollar amount. We needed ID, SS# and I think a reason for the withdrawal. We would never deny the withdrawal though, unless they refused to fill out the paperwork.

I wish I could remember the details (it's been over a decade) but I want to say it was over $5k in cash or $10k in a bank check. It was a federal law, not a bank one, and was intended to keep tabs on possible money laundering or something...

Fark. I remember so little of it this post is probably useless... sorry.

You're talking about what is now called a Currency Transaction Report, for any transaction involving cash over 10,000.

You get name/business, social security number or tax ID, and a few other personal details. It's a federal law designed to prevent moneu laundering.

Some people/businesses can apply to be exempt from the requirements, but some businesses (car dealerships, restaurants, any industry that's been often used as a "front" for money laundering) can't.

There's also a Suspicious Activity Report that can involve any behavior or amount, but that's different.


IIRC this is also known as a "Form 8300"

I used to work at a car dealer and this came up a few times.
 
2014-01-25 01:17:35 PM
The Mrs. got a rather large inheritance check last year, and our bank (we've banked there for 10+ years) advised us that the majority of it wouldn't be available for 7-10 days, citing "policy". I took that translation to mean "because fark you, that's why", and went to look up US federal law on the subject...

Basically, the law says that banks are allowed to hold any check deposits over $5K (single or aggregate) for 7 business days at the bank's discretion. Even if they can verify within 30 seconds that it's legit, they can hold it for 7 business days and make interest on it. Of course, if you're a "whale" customer and object, they'll release the funds immediately, because it's at the bank's discretion.

So, it's federal law that's allowing the banks to make a little bit of extra scratch off large deposits for no reason. I know this is just tangentially related to TFA, but it pisses me off.

Needless to say, we're a credit union now.
 
2014-01-25 01:18:52 PM

Malacon: When I worked as a Teller (at HSBC, actually) we had to fill out paperwork which we just referred to as the "Large Dollar" form when someone took out cash over a certain number or a bank check over a certain dollar amount. We needed ID, SS# and I think a reason for the withdrawal. We would never deny the withdrawal though, unless they refused to fill out the paperwork.

I wish I could remember the details (it's been over a decade) but I want to say it was over $5k in cash or $10k in a bank check. It was a federal law, not a bank one, and was intended to keep tabs on possible money laundering or something...

Fark. I remember so little of it this post is probably useless... sorry.


So, if someone wrote "hookers and blow" under reason, would you still approve the withdrawal? Because I would write "hookers and blow" every time. Just because.
 
2014-01-25 01:19:14 PM

Skunkwolf: It's just a way to stop people from withdrawing funds. Frustrate them.

Now, the question of the day is: Why are they trying to stop people from withdrawing funds?

Scary answer: The don't have the fungible resources to cover them. They lost it.


The realistic answer: They're hamstrung by suspicious transaction reporting laws and have an executive or legal counsel with a stupid idea to avoid paperwork. The only part that's even remotely correct is the idea that banks don't have on-hand currency to cover large withdraws; they don't. Tellers and loan officers don't have access to money outside of their drawer, and even the vault accountant is limited to how much they can sign out at any one time (not to mention the cameras). Banks don't have cash because cash is heavy, stinky, awkward, and the source of lots of paperwork.
 
2014-01-25 01:23:18 PM

gt4pete: Katrushkak: Malacon: When I worked as a Teller (at HSBC, actually) we had to fill out paperwork which we just referred to as the "Large Dollar" form when someone took out cash over a certain number or a bank check over a certain dollar amount. We needed ID, SS# and I think a reason for the withdrawal. We would never deny the withdrawal though, unless they refused to fill out the paperwork.

I wish I could remember the details (it's been over a decade) but I want to say it was over $5k in cash or $10k in a bank check. It was a federal law, not a bank one, and was intended to keep tabs on possible money laundering or something...

Fark. I remember so little of it this post is probably useless... sorry.

You're talking about what is now called a Currency Transaction Report, for any transaction involving cash over 10,000.

You get name/business, social security number or tax ID, and a few other personal details. It's a federal law designed to prevent moneu laundering.

Some people/businesses can apply to be exempt from the requirements, but some businesses (car dealerships, restaurants, any industry that's been often used as a "front" for money laundering) can't.

There's also a Suspicious Activity Report that can involve any behavior or amount, but that's different.

IIRC this is also known as a "Form 8300"

I used to work at a car dealer and this came up a few times.


Spoke too soon, 8300 is for non-bank businesses.  Form 104 is the Currency Transaction Report for banks:   http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-tege/fin104_ctr.pdf
 
2014-01-25 01:24:34 PM

Katrushkak: You're talking about what is now called a Currency Transaction Report, for any transaction involving cash over 10,000.

You get name/business, social security number or tax ID, and a few other personal details. It's a federal law designed to prevent moneu laundering.


Exactly. FinCEN's best practice guidelines* include making a record of the reason for the transaction prior to submitting the CTR, in case a pattern of transactions arises which constitutes grounds for a Suspicious Activity Report.

Don't want to give the teller this information? That's OK, she doesn't have to process the transaction.  Probably worth bearing in mind that, in itself, is arguably grounds for a SAR...

*guidelines in the sense of 'do as we say or someone might get hurt'
 
2014-01-25 01:27:20 PM
Haven't seen It's a Wonderful Life? Your money is not in the vault in the back. It's in Bob's house. And John's house. And Mac's farm.
 
2014-01-25 01:28:11 PM
Reporting a large suspicious transaction is standard. Denying a customer cash without proof of what it's for is not.

In any case, I would have thought large deposits of cash were more suspicious but I have never known a bank yet get funny with anyone for pulling that one.
 
2014-01-25 01:28:12 PM

gt4pete: Form 104 is the Currency Transaction Report for banks


FinCEN Report 112, as of April 1 2013, since BSA E-Filing became mandatory.
 
2014-01-25 01:33:23 PM

Demetrius: Customer: "I'll be closing my account please."


This.
 
2014-01-25 01:34:41 PM
I suspect that this is at least partially related to making sure people aren't succumbing to con men. There have been stories in the news in the past about elderly depositors coming in to take out large sums of cash. When the tellers ask them what for, they say that some cops are having them do it as part of a sting operation or some such nonsense. This sounds like a formalization of a policy to try to detect that.

That said:

HSBC has said that following customer feedback, it was changing its policy

Translation:

i40.tinypic.com
 
2014-01-25 01:38:34 PM

oh_please: The Mrs. got a rather large inheritance check last year, and our bank (we've banked there for 10+ years) advised us that the majority of it wouldn't be available for 7-10 days, citing "policy". I took that translation to mean "because fark you, that's why", and went to look up US federal law on the subject...

Basically, the law says that banks are allowed to hold any check deposits over $5K (single or aggregate) for 7 business days at the bank's discretion. Even if they can verify within 30 seconds that it's legit, they can hold it for 7 business days and make interest on it. Of course, if you're a "whale" customer and object, they'll release the funds immediately, because it's at the bank's discretion.

So, it's federal law that's allowing the banks to make a little bit of extra scratch off large deposits for no reason. I know this is just tangentially related to TFA, but it pisses me off.

Needless to say, we're a credit union now.


Damn. That's one of the reasons I chose a smaller local bank (that and the branch is like two blocks up the street), and so far I've been pretty happy. Their policy is that usually money is available the next day, which was extremely helpful when my sister had to fedex me a check for $60k for a down payment on a house closing. The check took long enough to get to me that without the bank's policy we might have had to delay it yet again. It was an inheritance thing like your wife's, only the estate wasn't quite settled yet so I didn't have the money yet.
 
2014-01-25 01:39:02 PM
Had HSBC credit card during the housing loan crisis in 2008. One month I got my statement and saw they dropped my card limit from $7,500 to $300. Yes, a $7,200 credit limit drop. I called customer service and raised a fuss saying if I had been away somewhere on vacation trying to use the card just to find the limit had dropped without warning, I'd be farked.

The customer service agent said the bank was reevaluating all customers due to the housing loan crisis and maybe in the future my limit would be raised. I cancelled the card instead as a $300 limit was useless for me and their no warning credit reduction was shiatty.
 
2014-01-25 01:42:07 PM
I'm somewhat surprised that so many Farkers have had occasion to withdraw over $10k in cash, giving them an insight into what their bank would ask where they to do so...
 
2014-01-25 01:49:57 PM
What I do with my cash is my business...right???

facesofjohnnydepp.blog.com
 
2014-01-25 02:02:35 PM

crab66: This is why you don't use banks.


THIS

I keep my bitcoins under my mattress.
 
2014-01-25 02:05:32 PM
Try taking out more than $10,000 in a US bank. They are required to log and file it with the IRS and you will be subjected to questioning, as to make sure that it's not illicit money, or legitimate money being used illicitly. "But I'll just take out $9,999 every day!" That would be flagged as a suspicious transaction.

Source: I've taken more than $10k in cash out of the bank more than once.
 
2014-01-25 02:06:53 PM
It's for hookers and blackjack. And forget the blackjack.
 
2014-01-25 02:07:43 PM

BafflerMeal: Coming soon to the US. The banks aready immdiately report large transactions to the fed. The bar is set somewhere


Single 10k transaction, or multiple smaller ones that add up to 10k in a "short" period of time, short being subjective.
 
2014-01-25 02:10:45 PM
in the nearer future Americans, corporations, etc will not need to fill out tax forms.
The tax will be taken out automatically at the bank, off the top.

Just like sales tax is paid at the register.
You can claim a deduction later, wait in the queue.
cash transactions will be frowned upon,
then made illegal. All legal payments must transact thru a bank.
Then, a little later, we won't need cash or cards....
if ya know what i'm say'n
and i think you do.
 
2014-01-25 02:10:52 PM

mccallcl: Isn't this the bank that was laundering money for terrorists?


Yes.  Most likely if you could show HSBC that the money was destined to go to South America as part of a drug deal they would let you have your cash.
 
2014-01-25 02:16:20 PM

Demetrius: Customer: "I'll be closing my account please."


"I'm sorry, Sir, you can only close your account by withdrawing all of the money in the account.
AS WE HAVE EXPLAINED TO YOU we cannot let you withdraw that much money without a valid reason."
 
2014-01-25 02:20:09 PM

Demetrius: Customer: "I'll be closing my account please."


This.
 
2014-01-25 02:25:01 PM

MusicMakeMyHeadPound: mccallcl: Isn't this the bank that was laundering money for terrorists?

The one we foolishly let off the hook with a light slap to the wrist? Yes.


Ah. "It's your fault we have to act like the criminals we are. "
 
2014-01-25 02:25:30 PM

KIA: The_Philosopher_King: At least in the USA we don't limit you.

But we may just seize it all.

http://www.wxyz.com/dpp/news/region/macomb_county/grocer-accuses-fed s- of-seizing-his-bank-account-for-no-good-reason-in-lawsuit

Actually, they file reports with the FBI on large cash withdrawals.


The FBI has no business getting that info outside of a warrant signed by a judge based on probable cause.
 
2014-01-25 02:32:19 PM

oh_please: The Mrs. got a rather large inheritance check last year, and our bank (we've banked there for 10+ years) advised us that the majority of it wouldn't be available for 7-10 days, citing "policy". I took that translation to mean "because fark you, that's why", and went to look up US federal law on the subject...

Basically, the law says that banks are allowed to hold any check deposits over $5K (single or aggregate) for 7 business days at the bank's discretion. Even if they can verify within 30 seconds that it's legit, they can hold it for 7 business days and make interest on it. Of course, if you're a "whale" customer and object, they'll release the funds immediately, because it's at the bank's discretion.

So, it's federal law that's allowing the banks to make a little bit of extra scratch off large deposits for no reason. I know this is just tangentially related to TFA, but it pisses me off.

Needless to say, we're a credit union now.


Banking law is slow to change, while technology races ahead.  When those laws were drafted, it was common for fraudsters to kite out-of-state checks for large amounts and disappear with the money, because it took at least 3 days to verify the transaction.  Electronic banking has changed all of that, but the laws haven't been updated because the current rules suit the banks just fine.
 
2014-01-25 02:33:28 PM

namegoeshere: Malacon: When I worked as a Teller (at HSBC, actually) we had to fill out paperwork which we just referred to as the "Large Dollar" form when someone took out cash over a certain number or a bank check over a certain dollar amount. We needed ID, SS# and I think a reason for the withdrawal. We would never deny the withdrawal though, unless they refused to fill out the paperwork.

I wish I could remember the details (it's been over a decade) but I want to say it was over $5k in cash or $10k in a bank check. It was a federal law, not a bank one, and was intended to keep tabs on possible money laundering or something...

Fark. I remember so little of it this post is probably useless... sorry.

So, if someone wrote "hookers and blow" under reason, would you still approve the withdrawal? Because I would write "hookers and blow" every time. Just because.


Of course I would. It wasn't in my power to deny the withdrawal if you filled out the paperwork.

I would probably remind you the IRS Would see the form though, and offer you another if you wished.
 
2014-01-25 02:37:23 PM
Someone could be at your house, holding your wife and children ransom.

/ It's all I got.
 
2014-01-25 02:44:14 PM
Well I WAS going to throw an extravagant surprise party for you and the other bank tellers.
 
2014-01-25 02:46:06 PM

InterruptingQuirk: Your money? LOL

[i1.ytimg.com image 480x360]


Thank you for posting that.  I lost that link last year and have been looking for it ever since.  Does a great job of telling the true story...
 
2014-01-25 02:46:10 PM
This is news? Holds on large cash/check transactions are common. When buying my house, I deposited a 6-figure check. They had to get the manager and then explained to me that because of federal anti-laundering laws, the money could sit for up to 11 business days before I could access it to put a down payment on the house.

I had a similar situation last spring when depositing a large check for a property I was buying. I'm pretty sure US laws concerning large movements of cash changed after 9/11.

FDIC Link
 
2014-01-25 02:50:45 PM

Demetrius: Customer: "I'll be closing my account please."


Done.
 
2014-01-25 02:51:32 PM
I had an account with Midland Bank - opened it in 1982. They were good to me, overdrafts and loans in the lean years of my professional training. Converted to an offshore account when I moved to the US. Then they became HSBC and things changed - fees, minimum balance etc. Fark 'em, closed the account and opened one with Nat West...
 
2014-01-25 02:56:02 PM

Demetrius: Customer: "I'll be closing my account please."


THIS.  I would respond to that line about "we don't need to pre-inform you because we didn't change your contract" with, "well, I don't need to pre-inform you that I am now closing my account."  Its completely absurd that they wouldn't let someone have their own money.
 
2014-01-25 02:56:54 PM
Who needs cash anyway?
I pay in cash maybe a couple of times a year. Many bank branches in Norway don't even have cash available anymore, but you can use your debit card to withdraw a few thousands in cash in most shops.
Around here people use debit cards to pay for everything. Bills, cars and other expensive items are paid by online banking.
 
2014-01-25 03:10:01 PM

Launchpad1986: Demetrius: Customer: "I'll be closing my account please."

My exact thoughts!


My uncle did something like this when I was a kid, pre-atm he stopped at the bank to grab some cash so we could have lunch while we were in town. The teller wanted to charge him a quarter to cash a check on his account at the bank. He asked why and she just said "because" so he got loud and asked if the bank didn't have enough to cover a $25 check or maybe checks written on accounts at their bank were no good or maybe they didn't trust their own customers, as a 10 year old I had a hard time keeping a straight face while he did this whole over the top street theater thing for the other customers. He ended up performing in front of the bank manager and assitant manager and after getting a few concessions from them closed the account.

Yeah he was a jerk but funny.
 
2014-01-25 03:11:32 PM

Warlordtrooper: The FBI has no business getting that info outside of a warrant signed by a judge based on probable cause.


Meanwhile, back in reality, BSA/AML was signed into law 44 years ago, tightened up by Title III of the PATRIOT Act, and has met with no significant legal challenges, although the information is collected by FinCEN, not the FBI.
 
2014-01-25 03:13:11 PM
Cash is only for small stuff, anything larger use a debitcard. It's much more convenient and safer for everybody.

In Denmark it's illegal to buy anything for cash, that cost over 2000$. (This law was created because members of Hells Angels were getting wellfare, while having a large illegal income at the same time)
 
2014-01-25 03:46:42 PM

netringer: Demetrius: Customer: "I'll be closing my account please."

"I'm sorry, Sir, you can only close your account by withdrawing all of the money in the account.
AS WE HAVE EXPLAINED TO YOU we cannot let you withdraw that much money without a valid reason."


"I gave you a valid reason for the withdrawal, I'm closing my account."
 
2014-01-25 03:54:32 PM
something tells me that they don't ask investment bankers whether they are going to spend all that cash on cocaine.
 
2014-01-25 04:02:13 PM

oh_please: The Mrs. got a rather large inheritance check last year, and our bank (we've banked there for 10+ years) advised us that the majority of it wouldn't be available for 7-10 days, citing "policy". I took that translation to mean "because fark you, that's why", and went to look up US federal law on the subject...

Basically, the law says that banks are allowed to hold any check deposits over $5K (single or aggregate) for 7 business days at the bank's discretion. Even if they can verify within 30 seconds that it's legit, they can hold it for 7 business days and make interest on it. Of course, if you're a "whale" customer and object, they'll release the funds immediately, because it's at the bank's discretion.

So, it's federal law that's allowing the banks to make a little bit of extra scratch off large deposits for no reason. I know this is just tangentially related to TFA, but it pisses me off.

Needless to say, we're a credit union now.


Right. Because nobody ever submits a bad or stolen check and withdraws some or all of the cash before it is discovered or disputed.
 
2014-01-25 04:17:52 PM
Meh, the bank made a slightly ham-fisted adjustment to their security protocols in an attempt to prevent/deter fraud, but then fairly quickly abandoned the policy when they found it pissed off more customers than expected.
 
2014-01-25 04:21:13 PM

MrSteve007: This is news? Holds on large cash/check transactions are common. When buying my house, I deposited a 6-figure check. They had to get the manager and then explained to me that because of federal anti-laundering laws, the money could sit for up to 11 business days before I could access it to put a down payment on the house.

I had a similar situation last spring when depositing a large check for a property I was buying. I'm pretty sure US laws concerning large movements of cash changed after 9/11.

FDIC Link


I'm liking my bank more and more as I read these things...
 
2014-01-25 04:46:17 PM

Incontinent_dog_and_monkey_rodeo: "I can understand it's frustrating for customers. But if you are making the occasional large cash withdrawal, the bank wants to make sure it's the right way to make the payment."

How about fark you, it's my money, I can make payments any way I choose.


"Sorry sir, we've run your suggestion through our gigantic faceless bureaucracy and it's been disagreed with. If you wish to appeal the decision, please complete form 7645-11(b) and submit it to our appeals office. The address is not currently available.

"Thank you for your business. We realize you have a choice in financial institutions, which is one reason why we want to make it as difficult as possible for you to withdraw from your account."
 
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