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(NBC News)   Three months, multiple court dates, and nationwide outrage later, TX judge orders hospital to remove brain-dead woman from life support   (usnews.nbcnews.com) divider line 58
    More: Obvious, Texas, pregnancy, court date  
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5431 clicks; posted to Main » on 24 Jan 2014 at 6:28 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



Voting Results (Smartest)
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2014-01-24 05:38:58 PM  
9 votes:
Sad for the family at this time of loss.  :(

Also sad that it took this much effort and expense to simply follow the instructions of the patient and her spouse.
2014-01-24 06:40:37 PM  
6 votes:
Thank goodness.

As with the last thread about this, I'll point out this one in bold.

This was not following the law of the state of Texas.  In Texas, a brain dead person is legally dead and the rules regarding preserving the life of a comatose mother so her fetus can come to term does not apply.  Indeed, her body was a decaying corpse.  The hospital chose this ghoulish course of action as a crusade by a zealous anti-abortion man who is the General Counsel of the hospital.

Last week the judge drawing the case out recused herself when it became known that her campaign treasurer was the same man.
2014-01-24 05:51:49 PM  
6 votes:
Extremely sad for her husband, other child and family.  But at least now they can move on with the grieving process and continue their lives.

The hospital had argued as recently as Thursday that even though Munoz has been brain dead since Nov. 28, withdrawing her from life support "would cause the death of the unborn child."
But in a joint affidavit stipulating the facts of the case filed shortly before Friday's hearing, it said that "at the time of this hearing, the fetus gestating inside Mrs. Munoz is not viable."


Impressive, the hospital admitted that the child, was not viable.  Of course if it's not viable now, it wasn't viable when she died.  Yet they kept her body around for eight weeks.

I'm now curious what's going to happen to the medical bills that have been run up since she died.  We talk about healthcare costs in this country and how hospitals have to raise prices to cover un-insured patients. What about this case?  They need to eat the costs, and they need to pay pain and suffering damages to the father.
2014-01-24 06:45:32 PM  
5 votes:

BizarreMan: Extremely sad for her husband, other child and family.  But at least now they can move on with the grieving process and continue their lives.

The hospital had argued as recently as Thursday that even though Munoz has been brain dead since Nov. 28, withdrawing her from life support "would cause the death of the unborn child."
But in a joint affidavit stipulating the facts of the case filed shortly before Friday's hearing, it said that "at the time of this hearing, the fetus gestating inside Mrs. Munoz is not viable."

Impressive, the hospital admitted that the child, was not viable.  Of course if it's not viable now, it wasn't viable when she died.  Yet they kept her body around for eight weeks.

I'm now curious what's going to happen to the medical bills that have been run up since she died.  We talk about healthcare costs in this country and how hospitals have to raise prices to cover un-insured patients. What about this case?  They need to eat the costs, and they need to pay pain and suffering damages to the father.


As someone who works for a large hospital, that husband better have good insurance. The hospital will pad this bill without giving it a second thought. The husband will be selling sperm, blood and his dead wife's eggs to pay off this bill. Hospital administrators are generally scumbags. The Mafia is a much more reasonable organization.
/we need a single-payer system
//with a national fee schedule
///sorry to switch subjects
2014-01-24 07:45:30 PM  
4 votes:
I posted this in the other thread about the topic, but since the discussion has moved here, I think it bears repeating:

Something just occurred to me.

What do we call someone who does something to your body against your will, that takes away from your dignity, that violates your personal wishes regarding your sex organs?

We call that person a rapist. And I honestly don't think that's too strong of a word.

If being turned into cadaver-incubator against your will isn't a hideous violation of your most intimate parts, then what is it?

Sure, she isn't alive to feel the emotional pain of it all, but that doesn't make it any less of a violation. Its as if they raped her corpse.

/fark that judge and all the Bible-thumpers who did that to her.
2014-01-24 07:37:47 PM  
4 votes:

FarkingHateFark: TheDirtyNacho: Thank goodness.

As with the last thread about this, I'll point out this one in bold.

This was not following the law of the state of Texas.  In Texas, a brain dead person is legally dead and the rules regarding preserving the life of a comatose mother so her fetus can come to term does not apply.  Indeed, her body was a decaying corpse.  The hospital chose this ghoulish course of action as a crusade by a zealous anti-abortion man who is the General Counsel of the hospital.

Last week the judge drawing the case out recused herself when it became known that her campaign treasurer was the same man.

Holy shiat, you're right. How was this not published from the rooftops?

http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2014/01/16/22330010-texas-judge-recu se s-herself-from-lawsuit-over-brain-dead-pregnant-woman?lite


This is one of the most horrific stories I've read in a long time and finding out about the Judge's financial ties was the icing on this stinking, goddamn festering urinal cake of a situation.
That man has been tortured and those heartless cocksuckers will most likely try to bankrupt him to pay for this.
The entire situation is barbaric.
2014-01-24 06:30:54 PM  
4 votes:

JohnBigBootay: I'm super enthusiastic about the future of this country.


Considering that a judge in Texas has shown some common sense? Me too.
2014-01-24 06:35:44 PM  
3 votes:
I'm 51 and just old enough to remember Roe v Wade and I honestly never thought it would come to this. These people ought to be ashamed if themselves, but they appear to lack any capability for even that level of self awareness.
2014-01-24 06:32:14 PM  
3 votes:
This is why we need the death panels.
2014-01-24 06:07:36 PM  
3 votes:

BizarreMan: Impressive, the hospital admitted that the child, was not viable. Of course if it's not viable now, it wasn't viable when she died. Yet they kept her body around for eight weeks.


There "point," such as it was, was that it was necessary to keep the woman on "life support" so that it could be brought to term, that is, until it was viable. Only problem is, the unborn don't tend to do particularly well inside of brain-dead mothers.

If these assholes file for an injunction or try to appeal this ruling, it's going to be torches-and-pitchforks time.
2014-01-24 11:04:58 PM  
2 votes:
Great! Now maybe the parents of Jahi McMath will be forced to stop playing with her corpse, too.
2014-01-24 11:02:51 PM  
2 votes:

cryinoutloud: The baby also needs, like, input from the mother. Physical sensations. Sounds and breathing and movement. If it doesn't have any of that while it's developing, it's like it developed in a sensory deprivation chamber. I don't know what that would do to a fetus, since obviously it's never been done, but even if the physical body came out fine, the baby would be messed up. It might never be able to bond with people or something.  That's how babies who are raised in bad orphanages get all screwed up. They're taken care of, physically, but they never get any affection or touching or anything.



The fetus is not a conscious, sentient and aware being until it breathes outside the womb.  Amniotic fluid transmits muffled sound similar to how water does, and if fetus has hearing in utero then it could hear the ventilator machine pumping mother's lungs and people speaking near the mother.  Thus, the uterus is not technically a sensory-deprivation chamber because external sound, movement, breathing and other stimuli could be perceptible from within, but only if fetus is conscious and aware which current science says it is not.

The consequences of sensory deprivation once born, however, may be what you're thinking of regarding neglected babies who are conscious and aware of said neglect.
2014-01-24 10:22:01 PM  
2 votes:

gilgigamesh: Let's just say I hope they have excellent insurance, otherwise he has a bankruptcy in his near future.


I rather think the hospital should hope THEY have excellent insurance, because they're going to be getting sued into oblivion.
2014-01-24 09:56:41 PM  
2 votes:

NkThrasher: BizarreMan: Impressive, the hospital admitted that the child, was not viable.  Of course if it's not viable now, it wasn't viable when she died.  Yet they kept her body around for eight weeks.

Giving some benefit of the doubt, it may not have been able to be verified as being unviable at the time.  Whether or not it took all eight of those weeks for the fetus to show signs of not being viable is certainly a question, but it is at least somewhat conceivable that they wouldn't have been able to know at that time.


It can't possibly. She was 14 weeks pregnant when she died, and is at 22 weeks now. This is what the latest ultrasound showed:

"Even at this early stage, the lower extremities are deformed to the extent the gender cannot be determined," the statement says.
In addition the statement says the fetus has swelling of the brain - "hydrocephalus" - as well as a possible heart problem.

http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2014/01/22/22404705-fetus-of-texas-w om an-on-life-support-distinctly-abnormal-family-lawyers-say?lite

It can't have been a surprise to anyone--certainly not to a neonatal specialist, for instance--that a 14-week fetus deprived of oxygen and a healthy blood flow through the placenta would not develop normally in the first trimester. This wasn't a near-term baby--it was a fetus that would have been abortable. The idea that they would have been able to keep her body going for the additional two months to bring the baby to viability is just insane.

I hope everyone involved in this mess feels as horrible as possible and that the husband sues them for as much pain and emotional distress as he can manage.
2014-01-24 07:42:46 PM  
2 votes:

NkThrasher: BizarreMan: Impressive, the hospital admitted that the child, was not viable.  Of course if it's not viable now, it wasn't viable when she died.  Yet they kept her body around for eight weeks.

Giving some benefit of the doubt, it may not have been able to be verified as being unviable at the time.  Whether or not it took all eight of those weeks for the fetus to show signs of not being viable is certainly a question, but it is at least somewhat conceivable that they wouldn't have been able to know at that time.


What are the odds that a fetus would come out fine when the mother was braindead from being starved of oxygen? I'm tossing my hat in with greedy hospital citing dynastic murder law.
2014-01-24 07:40:19 PM  
2 votes:
I wonder if at any point any of these idjits thought about what would happen if their fondest dream came true, and the fetus developed into a normal child. If he grew up and wanted to learn about the circumstances of his birth, would they be the ones to sit down and explain that he spent the first nine months of existence inside a corpse, and the corpse was his mom?
I don't understand how these people get their righteous fervor to such fever pitch that no one gives any thought to all the consequences. There's no god that would want this.
Hope the family is able to find closure, and peace, and to make a good life for the little one who lost his mom.
2014-01-24 06:52:26 PM  
2 votes:
Good, those Bible thumpers should be burn in hell for going against God's will by keeping this women past the time He tried to call her and her unborn child home.
2014-01-24 06:44:52 PM  
2 votes:
this is Texas,  suing a hospital is limited to $250.000  'tort refom'
this is Amurika,  since he is not a corporation he cannot declare bankrupsy.

he needs to wait until after dark, claim the hospital robbed him, pursue it and shoot it.

'cause that IS legal in Texas.
2014-01-24 05:43:52 PM  
2 votes:
Michelle Bachman is on life support in Texas?
2014-01-25 06:39:55 PM  
1 votes:

shortymac: PsiChick: I think this is a life lesson in exactly why anti-choicers don't know what the fark they're talking about. They  honestly did not understand until now that the fetus wouldn't have lived, and if it had it would have lived a short, painful 'life'.  If you cannot figure this out, you should be back in high school biology, not trying to force other people to live by your decisions.

/F*cking assholes.

This isn't about "choice" so much as the government taking away your rights.

Hubby shouldn't have been forced to go through months of medical and legal costs so that some people far away could feel good about themselves.


Yes, that's another side of it, and it still plays into the general theme of 'these farkwits were trying to inflict their choices on other people without thinking it through'.
2014-01-25 05:34:07 PM  
1 votes:

PsiChick: I think this is a life lesson in exactly why anti-choicers don't know what the fark they're talking about. They  honestly did not understand until now that the fetus wouldn't have lived, and if it had it would have lived a short, painful 'life'.  If you cannot figure this out, you should be back in high school biology, not trying to force other people to live by your decisions.

/F*cking assholes.


This isn't about "choice" so much as the government taking away your rights.

Hubby shouldn't have been forced to go through months of medical and legal costs so that some people far away could feel good about themselves.
2014-01-25 02:55:34 PM  
1 votes:
I think this is a life lesson in exactly why anti-choicers don't know what the fark they're talking about. They  honestly did not understand until now that the fetus wouldn't have lived, and if it had it would have lived a short, painful 'life'.  If you cannot figure this out, you should be back in high school biology, not trying to force other people to live by your decisions.

/F*cking assholes.
2014-01-25 01:21:04 PM  
1 votes:

IlGreven: TheShavingofOccam123: If the whole world hadn't been watching, the corpse would still be on life support. It wasn't wrong to do what the state did; it was inconvenient for the state to be seen doing it. Next time, who knows.

...and again, the state didn't do shiat. Even Texas was saying "you're doing it wrong" at the end.


Oh, please. Texas threatened to prosecute physicians for doing the wrong "type" of abortion.  That gave the hospital all the cover it needed.

Not to mention providing political cover for pro-lifers who murder abortion doctors.

Why can't wingnuts ever take responsibility for the consequences of their legislation?  They're SUPPOSED to be all about personal accountability.

I guess that's only when it's convenient.
2014-01-25 01:10:16 PM  
1 votes:

ciberido: How the hell can you bill someone for something they express said they didn't want?


Remember the guy who clenched his butt cheeks in a suspicious manner during a traffic stop? The one who ended up in the hospital against his will, with several digital rectal exams, abdominal x-rays, and an invasive colonoscopy under anesthesia? All completely and totally against his will (and without a warrant)? The one they found absolutely no drugs in?

Yeah, they billed him.
2014-01-25 12:09:00 PM  
1 votes:
You want to know what's extra farked up?

They only reason why this was allowed is because the fetus is horribly deformed and they don't want to foot the tax bill.

The pro-life will probably consider this a victory.
2014-01-25 10:10:13 AM  
1 votes:

Iworkformsn: Christians... is there anything they can't make worse?


We should force the coont who was behind all this to be the one pulling the plug.
2014-01-25 10:01:56 AM  
1 votes:

Fark You Buddy: This horror story is finally over. But I wonder..what happens if the hospital still refuses to pull the plug after 5pm Monday?


It'll only be over if the hospital does what the judge ordered.  So far, they've shown no sign of being reasonable.

Even after they turn off the machines, the hospital is likely to bill the guy and try and force him to pay for all the "life support" that they did to the dead woman against his wishes.
2014-01-25 08:31:48 AM  
1 votes:
This horror story is finally over.  But I wonder..what happens if the hospital still refuses to pull the plug after 5pm Monday?
2014-01-25 02:48:48 AM  
1 votes:
Christians... is there anything they can't make worse?
2014-01-25 01:33:52 AM  
1 votes:

Warlordtrooper: A whole bunch of people should be sued for this. Including the hospital and the family. If a dnr order exists that is pretty clear instruction as to what to do.


You're saying the family should be sued?

The family that didn't want it to happen in the first place?  The family that had to hire a lawyer to keep the hospital from using artificial BS to make the heart pump and the longs breath in a body that was long-past-dead?  That family should be sued?

Fark  you, you farking fark.

voristrupp: The hospital was merely following texas law, as they are required to do.


Bullshiat.  There isn't any such law, because she was dead, and there is no farking law about using dead bodies to create children.

I quote : "The judge agreed, saying the state law does not apply to Marlise Muñoz "because she is deceased."
2014-01-25 01:29:24 AM  
1 votes:

Kiwimann: OooShiny:
The fetus is not a conscious, sentient and aware being until it breathes outside the womb.


Wut?

[sic]

Wow, irony.  Maybe before you question the sentience and intelligence of a fetus, you should check your own spelling.
2014-01-24 10:24:28 PM  
1 votes:

TheDirtyNacho: Seems the copy/paste put some spaces in the URL's, sorry.

http://www.star-telegram.com/2014/01/09/5473242/family-of-pregnant-b rain-dead.html

http://dallas.culturemap.com/news/city-life/01-22-14-brain-dead-preg nant-woman-sues-fort-worth-hospital-remove-wife-life-support-marlise-m unoz/

There was another article (you can google it) that notes that the General Counsel is Neal Adams, who was the treasurer for the original case judge that recused herself in a 1 paragraph statement.


If you are going to link a story, do this:

Type out what you want the link to say and then highlight it. Pick the link icon and add the url. Done.

This is your link

(Or . . . just click on the question mark icon and do what the first line says.)

I'm sorry for butting in. . . .
2014-01-24 10:20:33 PM  
1 votes:

Dimensio: Apparently numerous Freepers are outraged over the decision not to force a family to continue enduring emotional torment and significant financial burden (as the hospital has already announced an intent to bill the family for the thus-far unwanted medical "treatment" of Ms. Munoz's body) in order to sustain the existence of a fetus that will not actually survive outside of the mother's corpse.


How the hell can you bill someone for something they express said they didn't want?

Send the bill to the guy who pushed to keep her on life support.  Let HIM pay for it.
2014-01-24 09:38:57 PM  
1 votes:

MeanJean: I posted this in the other thread about the topic, but since the discussion has moved here, I think it bears repeating:

Something just occurred to me.

What do we call someone who does something to your body against your will, that takes away from your dignity, that violates your personal wishes regarding your sex organs?

We call that person a rapist. And I honestly don't think that's too strong of a word.

If being turned into cadaver-incubator against your will isn't a hideous violation of your most intimate parts, then what is it?

Sure, she isn't alive to feel the emotional pain of it all, but that doesn't make it any less of a violation. Its as if they raped her corpse.


First it was rape wands, now this.... I hate to imagine what they'll think of next.
2014-01-24 09:18:16 PM  
1 votes:
And on top of that - if insurance companies refuse to pay for medical expenses for corpses - that would also make a big dent in these kind of cases. I sure don't feel the need to pay the health care of the undead, no matter how good it feels to the relatives that refuse to live in the real world. Once the brain is gone - there's no coming back folks.
2014-01-24 08:20:17 PM  
1 votes:

TuteTibiImperes: Jim_Callahan: TuteTibiImperes: Apparently brain activity makes a difference in both how someone's body holds up and on the development of a fetus inside of it. That's sort of interesting in a macabre way.

Not terribly surprising, though.  Given that we can clone most of the tissues and organs involved, if it was even remotely workable to run the process to term off of machines we'd have given up on natural child-birth and gone full Cyteen half a decade ago.

// The brain regulates a hell of a lot more than breathing and heartbeat, I would imagine the most relevant things it does in this case is manage metabolic chemistry.

Interesting, that makes sense, I'd just never realized that.  I knew the brain was in charge of involuntary muscle movement, but I didn't realize it had a role in actual body chemistry.  I figured that was all organs and tissues that would function normally as long as they were getting oxygenated blood and nutrients.


Not just that, but a brain dead body on machines will decompose. Not as fast as if you tossed it in the back yard, but it will not look or smell like the patient is peacefully sleeping for long.
2014-01-24 08:16:29 PM  
1 votes:
First, there is no difference between brain death and death. Brain dead is dead. This woman was not on any sort of life support. She was dead. Let's be absolutely clear about this.

Uniform Determination of Death Act:

"§ 1. [Determination of Death]. An individual who has sustained either (1)
irreversible cessation of circulatory and respiratory functions, or (2) irreversible
cessation of all functions of the entire brain, including the brain stem, is dead.
A
determination of death must be made in accordance with accepted medical
standards."

Second, I fear that this decision was made because this fetus was in very poor condition, and that this horrible abomination against nature will be tried again should the fetus appear in better shape.
2014-01-24 08:00:14 PM  
1 votes:

FarkingHateFark: TheDirtyNacho:

Last week the judge drawing the case out recused herself when it became known that her campaign treasurer was the same man.

Holy shiat, you're right. How was this not published from the rooftops?

http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2014/01/16/22330010-texas-judge-recu se s-herself-from-lawsuit-over-brain-dead-pregnant-woman?lite


So much THIS.  Just to reiterate:

The lawyer for the hospital, Neal Adams, was also the campaign treasurer for the original judge, Melody Wilkinson.

Holy fark
2014-01-24 07:54:42 PM  
1 votes:

another cultural observer: JoieD'Zen: FarkingHateFark: TheDirtyNacho: Thank goodness.

As with the last thread about this, I'll point out this one in bold.

This was not following the law of the state of Texas.  In Texas, a brain dead person is legally dead and the rules regarding preserving the life of a comatose mother so her fetus can come to term does not apply.  Indeed, her body was a decaying corpse.  The hospital chose this ghoulish course of action as a crusade by a zealous anti-abortion man who is the General Counsel of the hospital.

Last week the judge drawing the case out recused herself when it became known that her campaign treasurer was the same man.

Holy shiat, you're right. How was this not published from the rooftops?

http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2014/01/16/22330010-texas-judge-recu se s-herself-from-lawsuit-over-brain-dead-pregnant-woman?lite

This is one of the most horrific stories I've read in a long time and finding out about the Judge's financial ties was the icing on this stinking, goddamn festering urinal cake of a situation.
That man has been tortured and those heartless cocksuckers will most likely try to bankrupt him to pay for this.
The entire situation is barbaric.

Because when you think about bankruptcy, judicial corruption, and conniving hospital administrators, the first image that comes to mind is of an illiterate, filth-caked savage bludgeoning a nun to death with the leg of the horse he just raped.


precisely
2014-01-24 07:40:18 PM  
1 votes:

DamnYankees: Earpj: Can he sue the State for..I don't know? Pain and suffering? Cruel and unusual punishment? Something like that?

You can't sue states. You can only sue individual people. And trying to get money damages from an officer of the state acting in their official capacity in extraordinarily hard - you basically need to prove bad faith/malice. It's really hard.


Actually, given that the hospital director very personally caused this and has a long and storied history of opposition to the spirit of this law, I don't think proving he intentionally violated the law here to at least the extent necessary for civil penalties would actually be all that difficult.

If you're actually executing your duties or trying to then the law shields you from liability.  This guy very intentionally wasn't executing his duties.
2014-01-24 07:32:10 PM  
1 votes:

cold_weather_tex: TheDirtyNacho:

http://dallas.culturemap.com/news/city-life/01-22-14-brain-dead-preg na nt-woman-sues-fort-worth-hospital-remove-wife-life-support-marlise-mun oz/

Quoting a separate section of the Texas Health and Safety Code, the filing argues that because Marlise has no brain function, she is legally dead under Texas law and not subject to the subchapter about pregnancy.

Can we bring back tar and feathering for the the idiot general counsel? And possibly the stocks? You're job is to not implement law as you see fit, dumba$$!



Personally I think they were hoping to draw this out so as to get to 24 weeks, if I've been reading things correctly, is the minimum 'viable' stage that a fetus can possibly survive outside the womb.

I don't know that's ever been attempted when the previous 8 weeks were spent gestating in a corpse. A ghoulish experiment.
2014-01-24 07:25:51 PM  
1 votes:
TheDirtyNacho:

http://dallas.culturemap.com/news/city-life/01-22-14-brain-dead-preg na nt-woman-sues-fort-worth-hospital-remove-wife-life-support-marlise-mun oz/

Quoting a separate section of the Texas Health and Safety Code, the filing argues that because Marlise has no brain function, she is legally dead under Texas law and not subject to the subchapter about pregnancy.


Can we bring back tar and feathering for the the idiot general counsel? And possibly the stocks? You're job is to not implement law as you see fit, dumba$$!
2014-01-24 07:24:15 PM  
1 votes:

TheDirtyNacho: Seems the copy/paste put some spaces in the URL's, sorry.

http://www.star-telegram.com/2014/01/09/5473242/family-of-pregnant-b rain-dead.html

http://dallas.culturemap.com/news/city-life/01-22-14-brain-dead-preg nant-woman-sues-fort-worth-hospital-remove-wife-life-support-marlise-m unoz/

There was another article (you can google it) that notes that the General Counsel is Neal Adams, who was the treasurer for the original case judge that recused herself in a 1 paragraph statement.


http://www.star-telegram.com/2014/01/09/5473242/family-of-pregnant-b ra in-dead.html

http://dallas.culturemap.com/news/city-life/01-22-14-brain-dead-preg na nt-woman-sues-fort-worth-hospital-remove-wife-life-support-marlise-mun oz/

It's because the programmers at Fark don't know how to handle link spam or long lines of text.
2014-01-24 07:21:36 PM  
1 votes:

TheDirtyNacho: Thank goodness.

As with the last thread about this, I'll point out this one in bold.

This was not following the law of the state of Texas.  In Texas, a brain dead person is legally dead and the rules regarding preserving the life of a comatose mother so her fetus can come to term does not apply.  Indeed, her body was a decaying corpse.  The hospital chose this ghoulish course of action as a crusade by a zealous anti-abortion man who is the General Counsel of the hospital.

Last week the judge drawing the case out recused herself when it became known that her campaign treasurer was the same man.


Holy shiat, you're right. How was this not published from the rooftops?

http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2014/01/16/22330010-texas-judge-recu se s-herself-from-lawsuit-over-brain-dead-pregnant-woman?lite
2014-01-24 07:13:41 PM  
1 votes:

TuteTibiImperes: Apparently brain activity makes a difference in both how someone's body holds up and on the development of a fetus inside of it. That's sort of interesting in a macabre way.


Not terribly surprising, though.  Given that we can clone most of the tissues and organs involved, if it was even remotely workable to run the process to term off of machines we'd have given up on natural child-birth and gone full Cyteen half a decade ago.

// The brain regulates a hell of a lot more than breathing and heartbeat, I would imagine the most relevant things it does in this case is manage metabolic chemistry.
2014-01-24 07:13:33 PM  
1 votes:

DrBenway: BizarreMan: Impressive, the hospital admitted that the child, was not viable. Of course if it's not viable now, it wasn't viable when she died. Yet they kept her body around for eight weeks.

There "point," such as it was, was that it was necessary to keep the woman on "life support" so that it could be brought to term, that is, until it was viable. Only problem is, the unborn don't tend to do particularly well inside of brain-dead mothers.

If these assholes file for an injunction or try to appeal this ruling, it's going to be torches-and-pitchforks time.


Guillotines.  There are no words for how sick this is.
2014-01-24 07:12:33 PM  
1 votes:

TuteTibiImperes: TheDirtyNacho: Thank goodness.

As with the last thread about this, I'll point out this one in bold.

This was not following the law of the state of Texas.  In Texas, a brain dead person is legally dead and the rules regarding preserving the life of a comatose mother so her fetus can come to term does not apply.  Indeed, her body was a decaying corpse.  The hospital chose this ghoulish course of action as a crusade by a zealous anti-abortion man who is the General Counsel of the hospital.

Last week the judge drawing the case out recused herself when it became known that her campaign treasurer was the same man.

I agree that the course the hospital chose was pretty ghoulish, but I was under the impression that as long as someone was kept on life support, with machines doing the breathing, circulating the blood, and administering fluids and nutrients and fluids via IV that the body was technically 'alive'.

Apparently brain activity makes a difference in both how someone's body holds up and on the development of a fetus inside of it. That's sort of interesting in a macabre way.



There is a checklist (appendix 3) that determines brain death.  Machinery can circulate fluids for a long time, but the body still decays as the lower order brain ceases to regulate its cellular function.  Sometimes the heart continues to beat after brain death because the heart beating mechanism is highly autonomous - this is why some people have difficulty accepting brain death as death.

But, pretty much every rational legal and ethical guideline considers brain death to be death.
2014-01-24 06:55:49 PM  
1 votes:
everything about this story is sad
2014-01-24 06:52:59 PM  
1 votes:
How could they tell when the Texan stopped and the brain dead started?

/Ducks
2014-01-24 06:52:22 PM  
1 votes:

NkThrasher: BizarreMan: Impressive, the hospital admitted that the child, was not viable.  Of course if it's not viable now, it wasn't viable when she died.  Yet they kept her body around for eight weeks.

Giving some benefit of the doubt, it may not have been able to be verified as being unviable at the time.  Whether or not it took all eight of those weeks for the fetus to show signs of not being viable is certainly a question, but it is at least somewhat conceivable that they wouldn't have been able to know at that time.


14 weeks at the time, about 21? weeks now. There's a huge amount of growth and development during that time -- there's a reason the usual pregnancy ultrasound to check for problems is at 20 weeks and not that much earlier. If the fetus had been perfectly healthy, the question would be a lot thornier -- there have been cases of normal babies being delivered from brain-dead women who were kept on ventilators, but AFAIK none of them had been deprived of oxygen for so long after their mothers collapsed.

From (my particular) pro-life perspective, what they're asking to do in this case is not to kill or abort the baby directly, they're asking for the mother's dead body to be taken off a ventilator. The baby, not being viable, will die when it's taken off life support -- that is, either when it's delivered and can't depend on its mother's system anymore, or when its mother's body stops functioning and can't support it anymore. All things being equal, there's no reason here not to let the baby go with the mother.

I will say that I can understand the hospital being cautious at first -- it sounds like there's a lot of confusion about the law (the husband's argument was not that the law was wrong but that it didn't apply to her, since she was not in a coma or vegetative state but actually dead) and they were probably worried about possible legal fallout if they decided "Nope, law doesn't apply here," and then later on someone disagreed.
2014-01-24 06:44:10 PM  
1 votes:

gilgigamesh: BizarreMan: I'm now curious what's going to happen to the medical bills that have been run up since she died. We talk about healthcare costs in this country and how hospitals have to raise prices to cover un-insured patients. What about this case? They need to eat the costs, and they need to pay pain and suffering damages to the father.

AAHHH HA HA HA HA HA!!! Good one, man....

Oh! Oh. You're serious.

Let's just say I hope they have excellent insurance, otherwise he has a bankruptcy in his near future.


The insurance company will say her insurance coverage ended when she died in November, therefor he's liable for all the costs.
2014-01-24 06:43:20 PM  
1 votes:

Earpj: Can he sue the State for..I don't know? Pain and suffering? Cruel and unusual punishment? Something like that?


Arachnophobe: Earpj: Can he sue the State for..I don't know? Pain and suffering? Cruel and unusual punishment? Something like that?

The state, I'd say unlikely. As I understood it, this whole situation was caused by the hospital's rabidly pro-life legal counsel.



In Texas?  Yea good luck with that.  Texas is a very very bad place to try to sue anybody especially a corp or the government.

Plugs not pulled yet, be amazed if this goes through.  The political football to be played with this whole circus is just too big for the state officials to let it go.  Then again with the technically dead fetus in a technically dead woman the future PR ramifications may be bad enough for the handlers to know that backing off is the best option.  Still amazing they got a judge to go this far though and let the plug get pulled

But its not pulled yet is it?
2014-01-24 06:42:57 PM  
1 votes:
At least we now know that a human corpse can not be used as an incubator.

/hooray for science, i guess...
2014-01-24 06:42:49 PM  
1 votes:
This sets a rather scary precedent, seeing there are so many other brain-dead people in Texas.
2014-01-24 06:40:56 PM  
1 votes:
www.webinapage.com
2014-01-24 06:33:58 PM  
1 votes:

Earpj: Can he sue the State for..I don't know? Pain and suffering? Cruel and unusual punishment? Something like that?


Unlawful interference with a corpse?
2014-01-24 06:30:08 PM  
1 votes:
I'm super enthusiastic about the future of this country.
2014-01-24 06:26:02 PM  
1 votes:
Can he sue the State for..I don't know? Pain and suffering? Cruel and unusual punishment? Something like that?
 
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