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(WFAA Fort Worth)   Thirty years ago, the Mac debuted, and changed desktop computing forever. Sadly, in the ensuing three decades, the world has become more like '1984', despite the landmark Apple commercial's predictions of the contrary   (wfaa.com) divider line 75
    More: Obvious, Apple, deleting files, Xerox PARC, uniformity, graphical user interfaces, desktop computing, keystrokes  
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724 clicks; posted to Geek » on 23 Jan 2014 at 8:22 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



75 Comments   (+0 »)
   
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2014-01-23 08:01:10 PM  
We have seen big brother and he is us.
 
2014-01-23 08:25:56 PM  
Never install software updates on your hackintosh (unless you're doing it to a VM == easily restorable)

Goes through this just fine.
lordargent.com

But then on boot.
lordargent.com
// they do this shiat on purpose
 
ecl
2014-01-23 08:29:25 PM  
Linux.
 
2014-01-23 08:31:08 PM  
It's cute that subby thinks Apple had anything to do with changing desktop computing.
 
2014-01-23 08:31:34 PM  
I would argue that Compaq had more of an impact in changing the desktop landscape in the 80s than the Mac had.
 
2014-01-23 08:53:41 PM  
By that I assume they mean "elementary school kids learned about the Oregon Trail."
 
2014-01-23 08:53:46 PM  

Caelistis: It's cute that subby thinks Apple had anything to do with changing desktop computing.


Are you a troll, or are you genuinely that ignorant?
 
2014-01-23 08:54:01 PM  
I think far too many people put far too much in to that advert.  It's a fairly simple advert: IBM make really boring, predictable and rather plain computers and Apple don't.  Apple at the time were ever so slightly more bonkers than IBM when it came to design but not quite as bonkers as when they released the G3 'toilet seat' laptops.

The Bestest: I would argue that Compaq had more of an impact in changing the desktop landscape in the 80s than the Mac had.


As far as the PC goes I think IBM should get the glory for that.  Sure Compaq reverse engineered the BIOS but it was IBM that didn't patent the ISA bus and used mainly off-the-shelf components.  So without IBM's total lack of understand about what was going to happen they themselves opened the door to the clones; if ISA had of been patented you'd of ended up with a situation similar to the 16-bit era, Atari ST & Amiga... neither of which liked talking to each other or sharing even something as simple as a mouse.

Although all these years later I still point at laugh at IBM about MCA.  It was good.  REALLY good, bat shiat insane licensing requirements though.
 
2014-01-23 08:54:18 PM  
The amount of dick sucking in that article would make a gay porn star blush
 
2014-01-23 08:57:21 PM  

Caelistis: It's cute that subby thinks Apple had anything to do with changing desktop computing.


Three words: Graphical User Interface.

If you like being able to open files and folders without having to manually type in its location on your hard drive every single time you try to open them, thank Apple.

/also thank Nikolai Tesla, who came up with the ideas that Thomas Edison stole and sold as his own
//and those guys in the Renaissance and Enlightenment who figured that we should try giving Science™ a go
///and the Romans (roads, sanitation, etc.)


\and Arizona Senator John McCain, whose defeat of Grog The Neanderthal at the Battle Of Pangaea ensured the dominance of Homo Sapiens over the entirety of Earth
 
2014-01-23 09:03:07 PM  
Fair enough.  Apple has become more like 1984 / Big Brother.
 
2014-01-23 09:03:49 PM  

King Something: Caelistis: It's cute that subby thinks Apple had anything to do with changing desktop computing.

Three words: Graphical User Interface.


Thank you, Xerox PARC
 
2014-01-23 09:04:58 PM  

King Something: Three words: Graphical User Interface


Xerox PARC?
 
2014-01-23 09:06:33 PM  
King Something: Three words: Graphical User Interface.
If you like being able to open files and folders without having to manually type in its location on your hard drive every single time you try to open them, thank Apple.
   Xerox PARC (Palo Alto Research Center), Doug Englebart, and many, many other, none of whom had anything to do with Apple.

FTFY.
 
2014-01-23 09:07:33 PM  

Nicholas D. Wolfwood: Fair enough.  Apple Google has become more like 1984 / Big Brother.


FTFY.. I'm not even a fan of Apple products but they are so far from what you described..  Google is the very definition of what you wrote.
 
2014-01-23 09:07:45 PM  
Any technology that can be abused, will be abused, especially when it concerns gathering information.

It surprised me, when the Internet opened up, that pubescent kids could suddenly write viruses and infect other computers with, back then, stupid things. I should have seen the potential for commercial and governmental abuse then, but did not. I was still trying to figure out exactly what programming code was.

In retrospect, people smarter than I should have seen the eventual outcome. Later, all sorts of alarm bells should have gone off when cell phones became pocket sized, included incredibly sophisticated video cameras, had internet access and GPS was added.

A documentary was required to teach folks about the then popular home wireless security cameras, whose signal could be tapped into by anyone with a cheap laptop and cheap plug in device.

Unfortunately, all it did was create a market for the signal interceptor device. When baby monitors hit the scene, able to transmit and receive both video and voice wirelessly, folks forgot about the security weakness of the security cams and those who didn't started peeking into homes through the monitors.

Of course out came laptops with built in video cameras and wireless, along with home routers. Security codes or no security, others figured out a way to tap into not only the video but the microphones. Still others who made the laptops included programs enabling them or the government to turn on your video camera without you knowing it.

Now, think about the new home security features you can activate by cell. It's not going to take long before hackers find a way to use that to their advantage.

After all, law enforcement can activate your GPS in many of the phones today without your knowing it and find out where you are.

When the first home computer came out, sans Internet, mainly using the complicated OS DOS and LOTUS, with no HD, no one considered how fast the technology would advance.

No one especially considered how easily it could be used for criminal activities, government and law enforcement spying and even to tracking your car along with having the ability to shut it off on command if you failed to pay your bill or a government agency had a reason to do so.

I don't even want to think about what they'll do to the next quantum leap in technology.
 
2014-01-23 09:08:46 PM  
King Something: Three words: Graphical User Interface.

And, oh, yeah - *Apple's* contribution to the GUI was to try and sue the living shiat out of anyone else who wanted to use something that they didn't even invent themselves!
 
2014-01-23 09:09:21 PM  
Bouncy, bouncy, hammer throw, TV breaks was about all my adolescent brain understood of that commercial
 
2014-01-23 09:09:54 PM  

King Something: Three words: Graphical User Interface.

If you like being able to open files and folders without having to manually type in its location on your hard drive every single time you try to open them, thank Apple.


Well, the first version of MacOS and Windows 1.0 were developed in parallel and released at close to the same time (1984 for the mac, 1985 for Windows).
 
2014-01-23 09:10:26 PM  

King Something: Three words: Graphical User Interface.

If you like being able to open files and folders without having to manually type in its location on your hard drive every single time you try to open them, thank Apple.

/also thank Nikolai Tesla, who came up with the ideas that Thomas Edison stole and sold as his own


If you're thanking Tesla for stuff Edison is credited with, you should be thanking Xerox Parc for the GUI, not Apple.
 
2014-01-23 09:11:33 PM  

Nefarious: King Something: Three words: Graphical User Interface

Xerox PARC?


Xerox has been heavily criticized (particularly by business historians) for failing to properly commercialize and profitably exploit PARC's innovations. A favorite example is the GUI, initially developed at PARC for the Alto and then commercialized as the Xerox star by the Xerox Systems Development Department. Although very significant in terms of its influence on future system design, it is deemed a failure because it only sold approximately 25,000 units.

From the wiki
 
2014-01-23 09:13:19 PM  

Sum Dum Gai: King Something: Three words: Graphical User Interface.

If you like being able to open files and folders without having to manually type in its location on your hard drive every single time you try to open them, thank Apple.

Well, the first version of MacOS and Windows 1.0 were developed in parallel and released at close to the same time (1984 for the mac, 1985 for Windows).


Huh.

netdna.webdesignerdepot.com

upload.wikimedia.org
 
2014-01-23 09:14:55 PM  

Saiga410: Bouncy, bouncy, hammer throw, TV breaks was about all my adolescent brain understood of that commercial


I am pleased to see that somebody else was paying attention back in the 80s.

/I had an Apple 2e at the time
//my parents had no desire to drop a couple/few grand AGAIN to get a Mac
/the Apple 2e and about 300 5.25" floppies all still work just fine
 
2014-01-23 09:17:29 PM  

Nadie_AZ: it is deemed a failure because it only sold approximately 25,000 units.


That's primarily because the GUI used in the Alto & Star weren't very well polished, at certain points you would have to do things from the command line.  Quite a bit more, by all accounts, than even the early versions of Windows required.  It also, if memory serves had quite a high price point.

So whilst Xerox should, rightly, get the credit for inventing it BOTH Microsoft and Apple should get credit for finishing it off and polishing it to a state where it was reasonably fit for consumers.
 
2014-01-23 09:18:25 PM  
OS2/Warp biatches
 
2014-01-23 09:19:28 PM  
Vaneshi:  at certain points you would have to do things from the command line.

So Linux
 
2014-01-23 09:19:50 PM  
Yeah, Apple's draconian closed system policies were the total opposite of Orwell's fictional societies. Tot. All. Y.
 
2014-01-23 09:20:44 PM  
styckx: Nicholas D. Wolfwood:  Fair enough.  Apple Google has become more like 1984 / Big Brother.

FTFY.. I'm not even a fan of Apple products but they are so far from what you described..  Google is the very definition of what you wrote.


Well, to tell the truth, I'm not much up all the stuff Google is up to these days, good or bad.  Kinda fond of their 'self driving cars' research.

As for Apple, their 'technological ecosystem' is such a locked-down gulag it boggles the mind.  *Nothing* can be bog-standard.  As far back as the Lisa, no standard components could be used if the vendors could be persuaded to crank out something weird, just to make sure customers could go *only* to Apple.  (Anything standard, like RAM chips, had to be soldered in, IIRC.)  Remember the really weird floppy drives in the Lisa, with the *two* head slots in the diskette jackets?  Yeah, cause it doesn't cost *anything* for vendors to set up a distinct production line for stuff like this.  Oh, it does?  No worries, just pass the cost along to the fanboys.  Even farking *connectors* on otherwise standard interfaces.

Apple lives in eternal fear of interoperability or head-to-head competition.  I remember the one brief time, back in the - Jeez, when was that?  Mid-to-late eighties?  Late  '80s to early '90s?  - when Apple actually authorized Mac clones.  There were a reasonable number of non-Apple 'Macs' on the market, all licensed by Apple.  That lasted just until the computer magazines were able to publish comparative performance reviews of the 'real' Mac versus the clones, comparing 'Apples to Apples', as it were.

In *every* case, the clones ran rings around the official Apple Mac.

The very next day, all the clone licenses were revoked unilaterally by Apple.
 
2014-01-23 09:23:06 PM  
 
2014-01-23 09:23:39 PM  

Nadie_AZ: Huh.


I was highly anticipated and MS was demoing Windows 1.0 back in 1983.

After previewing Windows, BYTE stated in December 1983 that it "seems to offer remarkable openness, reconfigurability, and transportability as well as modest hardware requirements and pricing ... Barring a surprise product introduction from another company, Microsoft Windows will be the first large-scale test of the desktop metaphor in the hands of its intended users.

Baring a "surprise product introduction" which is what indeed happened.
 
2014-01-23 09:25:06 PM  

Nicholas D. Wolfwood: In *every* case, the clones ran rings around the official Apple Mac.

The very next day, all the clone licenses were revoked unilaterally by Apple.


The clone licenses were pulled because Steve Jobs came back to Apple and Apple were months from going bankrupt.  Not because of some silly article in MacWorld.

/and the rest of your shiat is made up as well as far as I can tell
 
2014-01-23 09:29:07 PM  

Nicholas D. Wolfwood: King Something: Three words: Graphical User Interface.
If you like being able to open files and folders without having to manually type in its location on your hard drive every single time you try to open them, thank Apple.   Xerox PARC (Palo Alto Research Center), Doug Englebart, and many, many other, none of whom had anything to do with Apple.

FTFY.


And Xerox did exactly what with the technology?  Nothing.  It was sitting there looking cool in some guys lab.  After Apple paid Xerox for the technology (in stock) and hired most of their crew they went around actually making what PARC did useful.  Like overlapping windows. Among a few hundred other things.

/also interesting fact - Xerox Venture arm at the time was an investor in Apple
 
2014-01-23 09:37:22 PM  

Nicholas D. Wolfwood: no standard components


It's 1984 you couldn't got in to any store you liked and buy a replacement mouse.

 (Anything standard, like RAM chips, had to be soldered in, IIRC.)

Apple made my Atari ST who knew?  RAM being soldered on or more usually in DRAM packages you had to insert yourself was pretty common in the 1980's as well.

Remember the really weird floppy drives in the Lisa, with the *two* head slots in the diskette jackets?

You and I seem to live in different universes.  One where a 3.5" & 5.25" disk only have one side exposed or you just enjoy turning floppies over.

The very next day, all the clone licenses were revoked unilaterally by Apple.

Yes because Steve Jobs was installed as CEO again, the licenses to clones was only one of a great number of things he killed off upon his return.  But I don't hear people moaning about the Newton being killed off or whatever the hell that rebadged digital camera thing was.

You should also look up how reliable some of those clones were, some were good yes others were... very Compaqy shall we say?
 
2014-01-23 09:41:28 PM  

styckx: Vaneshi:  at certain points you would have to do things from the command line.

So Linux


Very much so and I consider that one of Linux's weaknesses.  If you HAVE to use the command line to modify something (and the Run dialogue counts as that as well) that you wouldn't have to do on another OS then your GUI has failed.

"Ohh you just type sudo apt-get emerge -pv fishcakes and it'll ins..." ZzZzZzZzZ

/Installed Gentoo.
//Not that hard actually.
 
2014-01-23 09:52:31 PM  
I'm glad there are some other old school geeks like me around. The correct answer is, in fact, Xerox Parc.

Also, as Vaneshi will probably remember. GEM from Digital Research came out in the same year, 1984, and kicked both Windows' and Mac's ass in terms of what a GUI did.

/Loved my 512 and 1024 STs, wish I still had them.
 
2014-01-23 09:52:55 PM  

Vaneshi: Nicholas D. Wolfwood: no standard components

It's 1984 you couldn't got in to any store you liked and buy a replacement mouse.

 (Anything standard, like RAM chips, had to be soldered in, IIRC.)

Apple made my Atari ST who knew?  RAM being soldered on or more usually in DRAM packages you had to insert yourself was pretty common in the 1980's as well.

Remember the really weird floppy drives in the Lisa, with the *two* head slots in the diskette jackets?

You and I seem to live in different universes.  One where a 3.5" & 5.25" disk only have one side exposed or you just enjoy turning floppies over.

The very next day, all the clone licenses were revoked unilaterally by Apple.

Yes because Steve Jobs was installed as CEO again, the licenses to clones was only one of a great number of things he killed off upon his return.  But I don't hear people moaning about the Newton being killed off or whatever the hell that rebadged digital camera thing was.

You should also look up how reliable some of those clones were, some were good yes others were... very Compaqy shall we say?


I used a Lisa at work back in those days. It had two 5.25" floppy drives. Everybody else's 5 inch floppies had the big hole in the center, one really small hole in the jacket for the sensor to detect the hole in the media that identified the start of the tracks - and the oblong slot in the jacket for the read - write head.

The Lisa 5 inch diskettes had a second oblong slot in the jacket, identical to the slot for the head, diametrically opposite to the 'standard' head slot. Why? I have *no* idea. I doubt they had a second set of heads in there, and IIRC, the jacket had corner notches so that it could only be inserted one way.

But that second head slot was positioned *perfectly* to make it real easy to put a big thumb print on the diskette medium.
 
2014-01-23 09:57:03 PM  

Caelistis: /Loved my 512 and 1024 STs, wish I still had them.


It was something of a let down when I went from an ST to a PC, Windows 3.1 really wasn't that intuitive when you were used to GEM.

I've a 512STFM kicking around, it spends its life running music software for the other half.  You can find them dirt cheap on ebay.

/Love them Jackintoshes.
 
2014-01-23 10:03:02 PM  

Vaneshi: styckx: Vaneshi:  at certain points you would have to do things from the command line.

So Linux

Very much so and I consider that one of Linux's weaknesses.  If you HAVE to use the command line to modify something (and the Run dialogue counts as that as well) that you wouldn't have to do on another OS then your GUI has failed.

"Ohh you just type sudo apt-get emerge -pv fishcakes and it'll ins..." ZzZzZzZzZ

/Installed Gentoo.
//Not that hard actually.


Yep. I enjoy Linux from a geek point of view but I still facepalm how much of it revolves around "having" to use terminal to get anything of importance done.  Even shiat like configuring Apache... A farking web server, let alone the most popular one is mostly done from terminal.    So much time wasted in Linux using text editors and terminals..
 
2014-01-23 10:05:10 PM  
Vaneshi:

You should also look up how reliable some of those clones were, some were good yes others were... very Compaqy shall we say?

That's really the trade-off you get with Apple.  Yes, they lock things down, but anything you buy from them is at least going to be built to a high standard.  The same can be said for their app store, sure, there's some crap in it, but nowhere near the level of junk that's all over the Google Play store.

Apple removes some choice in order to present what they feel are the best options.  The plus side is that there's a much better signal to noise ration, the downside is that there's less variety and you end up paying more for what you get.  Some people are willing to live with that trade, and the business model seems to have been working for them.
 
2014-01-23 10:05:12 PM  
Nicholas D. Wolfwood:

The Lisa 5 inch diskettes had a second oblong slot in the jacket, identical to the slot for the head, diametrically opposite to the 'standard' head slot. Why? I have *no* idea. I doubt they had a second set of heads in there, and IIRC, the jacket had corner notches so that it could only be inserted one way.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_FileWare

As I said it was for the second R/W head, from a technological standpoint it presents some interesting design choices in reducing head wear and does seem to be providing more storage than the PC did at the time.  Fascinating to read and seems it can be considered a prototype for the 1.2MB 5.25" disk that became standard fare on the PC.

Also, why didn't your company take the free upgrade to the more reliable 3.5" drives?  That was offered by Apple the time the Lisa 2/Macintosh XL was released.  It's hardly Apples fault your company was dumb.
 
2014-01-23 10:17:27 PM  

Sum Dum Gai: Well, the first version of MacOS and Windows 1.0 were developed in parallel and released at close to the same time (1984 for the mac, 1985 for Windows).


Windows was horrendous until Win 95. Since then the usability of Mac and Windows has been pretty similar.
 
2014-01-23 10:24:07 PM  

jaytkay: Sum Dum Gai: Well, the first version of MacOS and Windows 1.0 were developed in parallel and released at close to the same time (1984 for the mac, 1985 for Windows).

Windows was horrendous until Win 95. Since then the usability of Mac and Windows has been pretty similar.


Mac OS was pretty horrendous until OS X as well. And OS X came out about 5 years after 95.
 
2014-01-23 10:25:45 PM  

Caelistis: It's cute that subby thinks Apple had anything to do with changing desktop computing.


Just felt this needed to be repeated, under the circumstances.
 
2014-01-23 10:33:41 PM  
I'm sorry, when did Apple change desktop computing forever?

Subby sounds like one of these:
img.fark.net
 
2014-01-23 10:36:52 PM  
For instance, Xerox Corp. used a three-button mouse in its Alto prototype computer. Apple settled on one, allowing people to keep their eyes on the screen without worrying about which button to press.

I dunno about the rest of you PC users, but I'm pretty sure no matter how many buttons my mouse had at any given time, I didn't have any need to look at it. Hell, I didn't look down at my Strategic Commander mouse-like gaming controller, and that had twelve buttons.

// ok, ok, I never used all twelve in a single game.  Happy now?
 
2014-01-23 11:04:45 PM  
deliberately drawing attention to the single button on the mouse as a "feature" is a sure sign this guy has zero tolerance to the Kool-Aid, despite drinking it since '87
 
2014-01-23 11:22:15 PM  

Vaneshi: King Something: Caelistis: It's cute that subby thinks Apple had anything to do with changing desktop computing.

Three words: Graphical User Interface.

Thank you, Xerox PARC


who GAVE it to apple because they didn't like it.
 
2014-01-23 11:26:06 PM  

jaytkay: Windows was horrendous until Win 95. Since then the usability of Mac and Windows has been pretty similar.


MS-DOS 5 and Win 3.1 were what I grew up using.  I actually favored Win 3.1 back in the day over '95, at least until OSR2 came out.  Earlier versions of Win 95 had a lot of stability problems, partially because of how they implemented 16-bit compatibility.

I used to use Win 3.1 with Win32s, and then built a new PC which I installed NT4 on.  I would dual boot into Win 95 for games, but I kept NT4 as my main OS until Win2k came out.
 
2014-01-23 11:31:46 PM  
cdn29.elitedaily.com
 
2014-01-23 11:33:35 PM  
Those who forget the past are doomed to be duped in the present.

And I'm OK with that - the more of you that remain easily led by marketing efforts, the better off my retirement portfolio looks in the future. Heck, at the rate folks are buying into this malarkey, I may be able to retire early.
 
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