Do you have adblock enabled?
 
If you can read this, either the style sheet didn't load or you have an older browser that doesn't support style sheets. Try clearing your browser cache and refreshing the page.

(ABC News)   Eric Holder asks Russia to return Edward Snowden, promises not to torture or execute him. Much   (abcnews.go.com ) divider line
    More: Obvious, U.S. Attorney General Eric Holder, Russia, U.S., torture, Espionage Act  
•       •       •

1518 clicks; posted to Politics » on 23 Jan 2014 at 7:08 PM (2 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



Voting Results (Smartest)
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest


Archived thread
2014-01-23 06:25:53 PM  
10 votes:
It's f*cking disgraceful that the prospect of indefinite detainment and torture by American authorities is so plausible that the AG had to specifically promise not to.
2014-01-23 06:44:23 PM  
6 votes:
The most odious part of Bush and Obama's trouncing of the Constitution is their reliance on the "state secrets privilege," a fictitious legal privilege, borrowed from the ancient English common law but abolished hundreds of years ago, that allows the government to summarily shut down any case brought against it on amorphous national security grounds. This alone is justification for why Snowden could never receive a Constitutional, fair trial under the present regime. It's as if the government said you couldn't vote because you're black, you brought suit citing the 14th and 15th Amendments, and they demanded the case be dismissed under the Crown's right to have custody over all slaves. Complete rubbish propagated by people who want control over everything under the pretense of security.

At least Bush had the excuse of being an idiot, but Constitutional scholar Obama should be ashamed of himself. Contrary to what the media seems to be parroting-- this is not a vague issue. The Constitution is quite clear about the impropriety of general warrants and the requirement of due process.

Bring back our Constitutional protections and Snowden.
2014-01-23 10:32:52 PM  
3 votes:

Sgygus: "Snowden should have gone through the proper channels ..."

Are you f'ing kidding me?  The story of his life would have been "... and he was never seen nor heard of again".


It's not like there even are proper channels. Whistleblower protections don't exist for security contractors, and the people you take your grievances to are the very same people who think the system is working as intended. You'd first take it up the chain within your own company - who is getting paid to do the surveillance - and in the extremely unlikely situation it went even higher, the decision would be with the people who thought it was fine to pay for in the first place. Even if you went to a sympathetic party within Congress, it would still be a felony to disclose the information.

There is literally no way to go through proper channels to affect change. The system ensures it.
2014-01-23 10:24:35 PM  
3 votes:

grimlock1972: He is a coward, he purposely took material unrelated to exposing what the NSA was doing to US citizens, then ran away and hide behind what he took as a shield.



But the question you should be asking yourself is, how on earth was a contractor given access to so much information? Are there any safeguards in place? If I accidentally cut off an NSA agent in traffic, is he going to be able to track down my licence plate to find my phone records, tax bills, and whatever else, just because he is pissed off?

Even if Snowden is the most traitorousy traitor that ever traited, he should have had a hard time filling a floppy with data unrelated to his job. The fact that the NSA apparently allows anyone to look at whatever they want without adequate safeguard should be just as shocking as the fact that they are spying on everyone without a clear constitutional mandate. Everyone with the authority to secure such information and didn't should be fired as an example.
2014-01-23 09:12:51 PM  
3 votes:
Were the people who are calling for Snowden's head equally as outraged about the outing of Valerie Plame?
2014-01-23 09:09:17 PM  
3 votes:

grimlock1972: Snowden willing and knowingly broke the law, he plotted to do so well before he committed his criminal acts, he has admitted as much.

yes he revealed what the NSA was up to in regards to US Citizens, but the ends do not justify the means.

Also i would not be surprised if he is giving Russia secrets in exchange for his safe haven.

I do not want him dead, i want him to face trial and more than likely be convicted.

He is no hero he is a criminal.


That is seriously delusional. His motives are crystal clear to those of us who are not insane. The government was violating your rights, your neighbour's rights and everyone else's, Snowden recognized this and had the balls to expose it. He is absolutely, 100% a hero.
2014-01-23 09:07:46 PM  
3 votes:
Even if we were to accept all of the bizarre rationalizations for what the NSA did, has anyone heard anything on why random, run-of-the-mill contractors should have access to so many of our nation's most important secrets? This isn't a former President blurting out something he was told in a briefing, this is a random schmuck who was hired for a job that (presumably) did not involve every bit of information the NSA collected.

You can't tell me that people under color of authority aren't looking up the records of ex-girlfriends or just people who annoy them. There seems to be nothing in place to prevent it. Maybe if the Fed got their own house in order, the Snowdens of the world wouldn't have access to all of the embarrassing bits. "Here is all the scandalous information of the President of Mali -- and nothing else!" wouldn't grab headlines.
2014-01-23 07:50:01 PM  
3 votes:
NSA agents have already publicly admitted they would love to shoot Snowden in the head.  They aren't one bit ashamed that they violated the Constitution and a nation's trust.  They are just pissed that they got caught doing it.
2014-01-24 12:24:15 AM  
2 votes:

Gyrfalcon: Here's a good analogy: Suppose a burglar broke into a house, and while burglarizing it, came across evidence that the owner of the house was engaged in securities fraud and money laundering on a massive scale. So the burglar steals all that evidence and drops it off at the Wall Street Journal office. Now, does the fact that the burglar caught a terrible crook mean that he was not ALSO a criminal? Does prosecuting the fraudster mean we have to laud the burglar as a hero and a saint? (or conversely, does going after the burglar mean letting the fraudster off the hook?) Isn't it possible they are both criminal in different ways?


Actually that's a bad analogy. It begs the question and essentially says, "if someone did something criminal wouldn't they be a criminal?"  Seriously, that's a horrible analogy.

What Snowden did was more like: Woman gets a job in a big bank.  While she does bank stuff, she notices a locked room, and eventually asks a coworker, "what's in that room?" Coworker says, "that's where the Foreclosure Dept. creates documents we need to file foreclosures on properties that we don't have enough proof to foreclose."  She says, "hmmm" and works her way into a position in the Foreclosure Dept.  Once in that position, she goes to the locked room and photocopies enough files to show that the bank is forging documents to do foreclosures.  She takes the docs to the press, and the bank screams about her stealing proprietary files. Now that's a good analogy.
2014-01-23 10:48:18 PM  
2 votes:
Some day maybe we'll have a POTUS with the balls to issue Snowden a pardon for his actions. Snowden is a hero, no question whatsoever.
2014-01-23 10:45:35 PM  
2 votes:

NBAH: grimlock1972: Snowden willing and knowingly broke the law, he plotted to do so well before he committed his criminal acts, he has admitted as much.

yes he revealed what the NSA was up to in regards to US Citizens, but the ends do not justify the means.

Also i would not be surprised if he is giving Russia secrets in exchange for his safe haven.

I do not want him dead, i want him to face trial and more than likely be convicted.

He is no hero he is a criminal.

Your whole government is criminal Mr. White Caped Crusader of Truth and Conviction. What about Cheney, Rumsfeld and Bush and the 100,000-600,000+ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Iraq_War ) Iraqi civilians that were killed in an aggressive invasion of a foreign entity for a Haliburton contract and some oil? What about spraying Agent Orange on Cambodia and Laos (that you weren't even in a BS war with)(http://www.agentorangerecord.com/agent_orange_history/in_cambod ia_laos / )? What about destabilizing the whole middle east into turmoil and civil war?
Would you have been happier knowing Agent Orange is a drink mix and that you went to Iraq for "democracy" (lol)? Because someone had to expose that. Torture them too, goddamn traitors. 'Murka! Puck Yeaaarrrhhh'!

You got shiat on your face yet you're still pointing fingers.

And Snowden isn't a criminal, but a whistle blower trying to expose unconstitutional corruption and espionage under the guile of liberty and domestic security.

"America, the only right way!"


He's both.  He's a hero, but technically he's a criminal.  He has already admitted he broke the law.  Sometimes the right thing is to break the law and there are numerous instances of this occurring in this country that brought about much needed change.
2014-01-23 09:16:04 PM  
2 votes:

Gyrfalcon: Info dumps and vomiting classified unredacted material all over the Internet is not responsible whistleblowing; and bragging about it afterward kind of sabotages your defense; in much the same way that posting your armed robbery on your Facebook page negates your defense of giving all the money away to poor orphans after the fact.


Could you point to specific instances of Snowden doing "info dumps" and "vomiting classified unredacted material" all over? Greenwald has a copy. The Guardian has a copy. Various other people or systems have copies as a dead man's switch. No names or identifying information about government agents has been released as far as I know, nor have any technical documents or blueprints been released that could allow foreign governments to recreate the US's surveillance apparatuses.

His methods are much more Woodward and Bernstein than Wikileaks.
2014-01-23 08:41:53 PM  
2 votes:

grimlock1972: Snowden willing and knowingly broke the law, he plotted to do so well before he committed his criminal acts, he has admitted as much.

yes he revealed what the NSA was up to in regards to US Citizens, but the ends do not justify the means.

Also i would not be surprised if he is giving Russia secrets in exchange for his safe haven.

I do not want him dead, i want him to face trial and more than likely be convicted.

He is no hero he is a criminal.


Just because what he did was illegal doesn't mean he's not a hero. He's no less a hero than the people who film cops beating up black people for fun in places where filming the police is illegal.
2014-01-23 07:44:11 PM  
2 votes:

Cagey B: It's f*cking disgraceful that the prospect of indefinite detainment and torture by American authorities is so plausible that the AG had to specifically promise not to.


I don't think he promised not to detain him indefinitely.

At the time, Holder said that should Snowden return, he would be provided all the protections the law allows.

All zero of them.  His primary defense isn't allowed by law.  How nice of Holder to offer this.
2014-01-23 07:25:36 PM  
2 votes:

LordJiro: Remember, we should ignore the other state secrets and intelligence operations he compromised because some people didn't know the government spied on everyone it can, like it has since at least the Cold War.

Espionage is OK if it reveals something objectionable among everything else!


I keep seeing this argument, but nobody ever elaborates on what state secrets and intelligence operations he compromised regarding China and Russia. Is it the encryption backdoor, pre-installed spyware, and phone tapping operations? Or was there some massive release of the name of every spy operating around the world that I somehow missed? What specifically did he compromise, and furthermore why does it even matter if everyone already knew that the US government was spying on everyone it could?
2014-01-23 07:24:40 PM  
2 votes:
Putin is going to hold on to Snowden at the very least until after the Olympics. It's his free ticket to commit as many human rights violations as he wants, since the US isn't in a position to finger-wag at Russia as long as more of the NSA's disgusting behavior keeps being revealed.
2014-01-23 07:15:59 PM  
2 votes:

Cagey B: It's f*cking disgraceful that the prospect of indefinite detainment and torture by American authorities is so plausible that the AG had to specifically promise not to.


AMERICA! fark YEAH!

I would be okay if everyone in America who ever supported torture or indefinite detainment suddenly died.
2014-01-23 07:15:15 PM  
2 votes:
Remember, we should ignore the other state secrets and intelligence operations he compromised because some people didn't know the government spied on everyone it can, like it has since at least the Cold War.

Espionage is OK if it reveals something objectionable among everything else!
2014-01-24 09:10:43 AM  
1 vote:

doctor wu: That is seriously delusional. His motives are crystal clear to those of us who are not insane. The government was violating your rights, your neighbour's rights and everyone else's, Snowden recognized this and had the balls to expose it. He is absolutely, 100% a hero.


Except that most of the information that has been released has NOTHING to do with NSA activities in the U.S.
2014-01-24 12:42:00 AM  
1 vote:

The Bestest: mongbiohazard: Snowden is a hero, no question whatsoever.

There are plenty of questions.. pretty valid ones too, else there wouldn't be threads like this.


Yeah, teach the controversy, guy.

He's a hero. Simple as that. He took on huge risks, and paid a price most of us would not be willing to pay, to expose government malpractice. Period.
2014-01-24 12:11:41 AM  
1 vote:
Yet still, nobody talks about the constitutionality of the NSA activities. We are seeing an incredible paradigm shift from data collection of suspects to data collection of everiyone, stored for eternity, to be revealed whenever the govt and its affiliates decide they either consider you suspicious or just want to know what you've been up to. Is an omniscient government constitutional? Oh wait, nevermind, we should speculate about torture or argue about whether it was bush or Obama that's brought us here...
2014-01-23 11:54:43 PM  
1 vote:

OgreMagi: NBAH: grimlock1972: Snowden willing and knowingly broke the law, he plotted to do so well before he committed his criminal acts, he has admitted as much.

yes he revealed what the NSA was up to in regards to US Citizens, but the ends do not justify the means.

Also i would not be surprised if he is giving Russia secrets in exchange for his safe haven.

I do not want him dead, i want him to face trial and more than likely be convicted.

He is no hero he is a criminal.

Your whole government is criminal Mr. White Caped Crusader of Truth and Conviction. What about Cheney, Rumsfeld and Bush and the 100,000-600,000+ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Iraq_War ) Iraqi civilians that were killed in an aggressive invasion of a foreign entity for a Haliburton contract and some oil? What about spraying Agent Orange on Cambodia and Laos (that you weren't even in a BS war with)(http://www.agentorangerecord.com/agent_orange_history/in_cambod ia_laos / )? What about destabilizing the whole middle east into turmoil and civil war?
Would you have been happier knowing Agent Orange is a drink mix and that you went to Iraq for "democracy" (lol)? Because someone had to expose that. Torture them too, goddamn traitors. 'Murka! Puck Yeaaarrrhhh'!

You got shiat on your face yet you're still pointing fingers.

And Snowden isn't a criminal, but a whistle blower trying to expose unconstitutional corruption and espionage under the guile of liberty and domestic security.

"America, the only right way!"

He's both.  He's a hero, but technically he's a criminal.  He has already admitted he broke the law.  Sometimes the right thing is to break the law and there are numerous instances of this occurring in this country that brought about much needed change.


I'll have to pull a double technicality (best kind etc.) on this retort. I'll reiterate myself:
"Edward Snowden is NOT a criminal."

1. He has no prior convictions or charges.
2. He was summoned to court for his charges in America and as of yet "Innocent until proven guilty in the court of law" stands.
3. Fifth amendment protects against self-incriminating confessions i.e. ones attained during torture.
       3a.Therefore I would even say that the fifth makes compliance of the court summoning entirely to Snowden               and moot since appearing under tribunal would lead to torture, withdrawal of human rights and possible death.
       3b.The use of torture is prohibited under the Geneva and is classed as a "War Crime":
           "willful killing, torture or inhumane treatment, including biological experiments+willfully causing great suffering or serious injury to body or health"

 Which is followed by:
"Nations are also obligated to search for persons alleged to commit these crimes, or ordered them to be committed, and to bring them to trial regardless of their nationality and regardless of the place where the crimes took place."

So, who's the criminal here?
2014-01-23 10:55:01 PM  
1 vote:
OgreMagi:  He's both.  He's a hero, but technically he's a criminal.  He has already admitted he broke the law.  Sometimes the right thing is to break the law and there are numerous instances of this occurring in this country that brought about much needed change.

Well put, Snowden broke the law but for the greater good.  His reason for running is because he knew the punishment wouldn't fit the crime.  The NSA will never face repercussions and will only get better at hiding their illegal activities.
2014-01-23 10:42:49 PM  
1 vote:
if only snowden was a money laundering banker they'd have no interest in him.
2014-01-23 10:22:09 PM  
1 vote:
"Snowden should have gone through the proper channels ..."

Are you f'ing kidding me?  The story of his life would have been "... and he was never seen nor heard of again".
2014-01-23 09:40:39 PM  
1 vote:

djkutch: Nabb1: Solutare: Cagey B: It's f*cking disgraceful that the prospect of indefinite detainment and torture by American authorities is so plausible that the AG had to specifically promise not to.

AMERICA! fark YEAH!

I would be okay if everyone in America who ever supported torture or indefinite detainment suddenly died.

The Administration supports indefinite detention of "terror suspects," as do most of the Congress and Senate, so that would clear DC out pretty quick.

Genuinely curious--what is your view on the subject?


I am opposed to torture and indefinite detention of suspects. I'm rather appalled we have a Congress and Senate that passed a law authorizing indefinite detention and a President who signed off on it.
2014-01-23 09:16:00 PM  
1 vote:

grimlock1972: Snowden willing and knowingly broke the law, he plotted to do so well before he committed his criminal acts, he has admitted as much.

yes he revealed what the NSA was up to in regards to US Citizens, but the ends do not justify the means.

Also i would not be surprised if he is giving Russia secrets in exchange for his safe haven.

I do not want him dead, i want him to face trial and more than likely be convicted.

He is no hero he is a criminal.


Your whole government is criminal Mr. White Caped Crusader of Truth and Conviction. What about Cheney, Rumsfeld and Bush and the 100,000-600,000+ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Iraq_War ) Iraqi civilians that were killed in an aggressive invasion of a foreign entity for a Haliburton contract and some oil? What about spraying Agent Orange on Cambodia and Laos (that you weren't even in a BS war with)(http://www.agentorangerecord.com/agent_orange_history/in_cambod ia_laos / )? What about destabilizing the whole middle east into turmoil and civil war?
Would you have been happier knowing Agent Orange is a drink mix and that you went to Iraq for "democracy" (lol)? Because someone had to expose that. Torture them too, goddamn traitors. 'Murka! Puck Yeaaarrrhhh'!

You got shiat on your face yet you're still pointing fingers.

And Snowden isn't a criminal, but a whistle blower trying to expose unconstitutional corruption and espionage under the guile of liberty and domestic security.

"America, the only right way!"
2014-01-23 09:11:22 PM  
1 vote:

doctor wu: His motives are crystal clear to those of us who are not insane living in a fantasy world where everything is starkly black and white.

2014-01-23 08:54:55 PM  
1 vote:
snowden is an american hero

nsa, congress, obama should all be tried and hung
2014-01-23 08:38:05 PM  
1 vote:

ignacio: Cagey B: It's f*cking disgraceful that the prospect of indefinite detainment and torture by American authorities is so plausible that the AG had to specifically promise not to.

Indefinite detainment is the punishment for the crime he committed, and nobody's promised not to inflict it on Snowden. They promised not to torture or execute him, neither of which we were ever planning to do. Say what you want about our information gathering techniques, but we have never tortured anyone punitively, just for the hell of it.



We may execute people extrajudicially and torture people punitively just for the hell of it and detain people indefinitely without due process, but at least we don't torture anyone punitively just for the hell of it.
2014-01-23 08:28:03 PM  
1 vote:
Eric Holder never struck me as a comedian.

Until now.
2014-01-23 08:28:02 PM  
1 vote:

Cagey B: It's f*cking disgraceful that the prospect of indefinite detainment and torture by American authorities is so plausible that the AG had to specifically promise not to.


Indefinite detainment is the punishment for the crime he committed, and nobody's promised not to inflict it on Snowden. They promised not to torture or execute him, neither of which we were ever planning to do. Say what you want about our information gathering techniques, but we have never tortured anyone punitively, just for the hell of it.
2014-01-23 07:52:41 PM  
1 vote:
If Snowden was indeed legally forced to come back to the US, Putin should be a good Russian and just hand Snowden a pistol. Then tell him to do himself a favor rather than face that bullsh*# over there.

Sorry, but heroics and martyrdom are useless in a kangaroo court.
2014-01-23 07:30:50 PM  
1 vote:
I don't want him back until he shaves that scruff off his face and they wipe all the douchiness off of him.
 
Displayed 34 of 34 comments

View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest


This thread is archived, and closed to new comments.

Continue Farking
Submit a Link »
On Twitter






In Other Media


  1. Links are submitted by members of the Fark community.

  2. When community members submit a link, they also write a custom headline for the story.

  3. Other Farkers comment on the links. This is the number of comments. Click here to read them.

  4. Click here to submit a link.

Report