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(ABC)   Eric Holder asks Russia to return Edward Snowden, promises not to torture or execute him. Much   (abcnews.go.com) divider line 133
    More: Obvious, U.S. Attorney General Eric Holder, Russia, U.S., torture, Espionage Act  
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1431 clicks; posted to Politics » on 23 Jan 2014 at 7:08 PM (25 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-01-23 05:41:05 PM
just trade snowden for holder
 
2014-01-23 06:09:56 PM

snuffy: just trade snowden for holder


I'm OK with this.
 
2014-01-23 06:19:11 PM
Pinky swear
 
2014-01-23 06:25:53 PM
It's f*cking disgraceful that the prospect of indefinite detainment and torture by American authorities is so plausible that the AG had to specifically promise not to.
 
2014-01-23 06:44:23 PM
The most odious part of Bush and Obama's trouncing of the Constitution is their reliance on the "state secrets privilege," a fictitious legal privilege, borrowed from the ancient English common law but abolished hundreds of years ago, that allows the government to summarily shut down any case brought against it on amorphous national security grounds. This alone is justification for why Snowden could never receive a Constitutional, fair trial under the present regime. It's as if the government said you couldn't vote because you're black, you brought suit citing the 14th and 15th Amendments, and they demanded the case be dismissed under the Crown's right to have custody over all slaves. Complete rubbish propagated by people who want control over everything under the pretense of security.

At least Bush had the excuse of being an idiot, but Constitutional scholar Obama should be ashamed of himself. Contrary to what the media seems to be parroting-- this is not a vague issue. The Constitution is quite clear about the impropriety of general warrants and the requirement of due process.

Bring back our Constitutional protections and Snowden.
 
2014-01-23 07:14:19 PM
Hey, at least we haven't promised to shoot him in the balls, like that one guy suggested.

Who was that again? Someone important said we should shoot people like Edward Snowden in the balls, but for the life of me I can't remember the guy's name...
 
2014-01-23 07:15:15 PM
Remember, we should ignore the other state secrets and intelligence operations he compromised because some people didn't know the government spied on everyone it can, like it has since at least the Cold War.

Espionage is OK if it reveals something objectionable among everything else!
 
2014-01-23 07:15:59 PM

Cagey B: It's f*cking disgraceful that the prospect of indefinite detainment and torture by American authorities is so plausible that the AG had to specifically promise not to.


AMERICA! fark YEAH!

I would be okay if everyone in America who ever supported torture or indefinite detainment suddenly died.
 
2014-01-23 07:22:08 PM

ecmoRandomNumbers: snuffy: just trade snowden for holder

I'm OK with this.


 What you said.
 
2014-01-23 07:23:07 PM
Funny. We didn't ask until the Olympics kicked in.

Maybe NBC will get an interview with Snowden. We'll finally learn all about Snowden's childhood dreams that were crushed by a tragedy but then fulfilled through hard work, pluck and the grace of God.

Nothing like giving an emperor a chance to impress the peons with his magnanimity. (The emperor is Putin not Kostas.)
 
2014-01-23 07:24:40 PM
Putin is going to hold on to Snowden at the very least until after the Olympics. It's his free ticket to commit as many human rights violations as he wants, since the US isn't in a position to finger-wag at Russia as long as more of the NSA's disgusting behavior keeps being revealed.
 
2014-01-23 07:25:36 PM

LordJiro: Remember, we should ignore the other state secrets and intelligence operations he compromised because some people didn't know the government spied on everyone it can, like it has since at least the Cold War.

Espionage is OK if it reveals something objectionable among everything else!


I keep seeing this argument, but nobody ever elaborates on what state secrets and intelligence operations he compromised regarding China and Russia. Is it the encryption backdoor, pre-installed spyware, and phone tapping operations? Or was there some massive release of the name of every spy operating around the world that I somehow missed? What specifically did he compromise, and furthermore why does it even matter if everyone already knew that the US government was spying on everyone it could?
 
2014-01-23 07:26:26 PM

globalwarmingpraiser: ecmoRandomNumbers: snuffy: just trade snowden for holder

I'm OK with this.

 What you said.


And can we add shooting Holder in the balls post-trade?
 
2014-01-23 07:30:50 PM
I don't want him back until he shaves that scruff off his face and they wipe all the douchiness off of him.
 
2014-01-23 07:33:21 PM
leak all the secrets!
 
2014-01-23 07:40:42 PM
Well I'm ok with this since they are promising a fair trial under the rule of law.

"Of course if Mr. Snowden's lawyers informed us their client was prepared to take accountability by pleading guilty to the charges filed against him, we would engage with his lawyers on that, as we would with any other defendant," a Department of Justice spokesperson echoed later.

Oh, uh, never mind.
 
2014-01-23 07:43:52 PM

Solutare: Cagey B: It's f*cking disgraceful that the prospect of indefinite detainment and torture by American authorities is so plausible that the AG had to specifically promise not to.

AMERICA! fark YEAH!

I would be okay if everyone in America who ever supported torture or indefinite detainment suddenly died.


The Administration supports indefinite detention of "terror suspects," as do most of the Congress and Senate, so that would clear DC out pretty quick.
 
2014-01-23 07:44:11 PM

Cagey B: It's f*cking disgraceful that the prospect of indefinite detainment and torture by American authorities is so plausible that the AG had to specifically promise not to.


I don't think he promised not to detain him indefinitely.

At the time, Holder said that should Snowden return, he would be provided all the protections the law allows.

All zero of them.  His primary defense isn't allowed by law.  How nice of Holder to offer this.
 
2014-01-23 07:50:01 PM
NSA agents have already publicly admitted they would love to shoot Snowden in the head.  They aren't one bit ashamed that they violated the Constitution and a nation's trust.  They are just pissed that they got caught doing it.
 
2014-01-23 07:52:41 PM
If Snowden was indeed legally forced to come back to the US, Putin should be a good Russian and just hand Snowden a pistol. Then tell him to do himself a favor rather than face that bullsh*# over there.

Sorry, but heroics and martyrdom are useless in a kangaroo court.
 
2014-01-23 08:08:28 PM

AliceBToklasLives: Well I'm ok with this since they are promising a fair trial under the rule of law.

"Of course if Mr. Snowden's lawyers informed us their client was prepared to take accountability by pleading guilty to the charges filed against him, we would engage with his lawyers on that, as we would with any other defendant," a Department of Justice spokesperson echoed later.

Oh, uh, never mind.


Especially since some in congress are now pushing the theory that Snowden is a Russian spy.
 
2014-01-23 08:08:59 PM

cold_weather_tex: If Snowden was indeed legally forced to come back to the US, Putin should be a good Russian and just hand Snowden a pistol. Then tell him to do himself a favor rather than face that bullsh*# over there.

Sorry, but heroics and martyrdom are useless in a kangaroo court.


Nah.  If Snowden were extradited, he'd just end up changing his name to Edna.
 
2014-01-23 08:10:55 PM

OgreMagi: NSA agents have already publicly admitted they would love to shoot Snowden in the head.  They aren't one bit ashamed that they violated the Constitution and a nation's trust.  They are just pissed that they got caught doing it.


How they haven't been removed from duty is beyond me.
 
2014-01-23 08:11:05 PM

Emposter: Cagey B: It's f*cking disgraceful that the prospect of indefinite detainment and torture by American authorities is so plausible that the AG had to specifically promise not to.

I don't think he promised not to detain him indefinitely.

At the time, Holder said that should Snowden return, he would be provided all the protections the law allows.

All zero of them.  His primary defense isn't allowed by law.  How nice of Holder to offer this.


And what primary defense is that?
 
2014-01-23 08:13:05 PM

sprgrss: Emposter: Cagey B: It's f*cking disgraceful that the prospect of indefinite detainment and torture by American authorities is so plausible that the AG had to specifically promise not to.

I don't think he promised not to detain him indefinitely.

At the time, Holder said that should Snowden return, he would be provided all the protections the law allows.

All zero of them.  His primary defense isn't allowed by law.  How nice of Holder to offer this.

And what primary defense is that?


Why don't you try reading the article?
 
2014-01-23 08:18:52 PM
Putin says "Okay, but can I finish torturing him and executing him first? I have to get my Gulags in shape for all the Chechens I'm going to put in them before the Olympics get here."
 
2014-01-23 08:20:38 PM
Once we execute him, can I have his whorish girlfriend?
 
2014-01-23 08:28:02 PM

Cagey B: It's f*cking disgraceful that the prospect of indefinite detainment and torture by American authorities is so plausible that the AG had to specifically promise not to.


Indefinite detainment is the punishment for the crime he committed, and nobody's promised not to inflict it on Snowden. They promised not to torture or execute him, neither of which we were ever planning to do. Say what you want about our information gathering techniques, but we have never tortured anyone punitively, just for the hell of it.
 
2014-01-23 08:28:03 PM
Eric Holder never struck me as a comedian.

Until now.
 
2014-01-23 08:33:10 PM
Snowden willing and knowingly broke the law, he plotted to do so well before he committed his criminal acts, he has admitted as much.

yes he revealed what the NSA was up to in regards to US Citizens, but the ends do not justify the means.

Also i would not be surprised if he is giving Russia secrets in exchange for his safe haven.

I do not want him dead, i want him to face trial and more than likely be convicted.

He is no hero he is a criminal.
 
2014-01-23 08:38:05 PM

ignacio: Cagey B: It's f*cking disgraceful that the prospect of indefinite detainment and torture by American authorities is so plausible that the AG had to specifically promise not to.

Indefinite detainment is the punishment for the crime he committed, and nobody's promised not to inflict it on Snowden. They promised not to torture or execute him, neither of which we were ever planning to do. Say what you want about our information gathering techniques, but we have never tortured anyone punitively, just for the hell of it.



We may execute people extrajudicially and torture people punitively just for the hell of it and detain people indefinitely without due process, but at least we don't torture anyone punitively just for the hell of it.
 
2014-01-23 08:40:37 PM

Emposter: sprgrss: Emposter: Cagey B: It's f*cking disgraceful that the prospect of indefinite detainment and torture by American authorities is so plausible that the AG had to specifically promise not to.

I don't think he promised not to detain him indefinitely.

At the time, Holder said that should Snowden return, he would be provided all the protections the law allows.

All zero of them.  His primary defense isn't allowed by law.  How nice of Holder to offer this.

And what primary defense is that?

Why don't you try reading the article?


His primary defense isn't disallowed by law. It's prevented by his own damn stupidity.

"As much as some may want Snowden to be applauded for his actions, as a legal matter his self-stated laudable intentions are irrelevant to his criminal liability. He can only hope that it will play a role in his sentencing," argued Mark Zaid, a Washington attorney who regularly represents national security whistleblowers.
"Having publicly self-admitted his guilt for having illegally leaked classified information, he has eliminated any likely meaningful legal defence. Snowden unfortunately went about his efforts all wrong and missed available opportunities to generate public debate of the NSA programs but still avoid criminal culpability." (emphasis added)

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jun/11/edward-snowden-defence

It was his own dumbassery in publicly announcing "Yeah, I leaked all this material that I stole and I did it on purpose and it was classified and I knew it but I did it anyway; was that wrong? Should I not have done that?" that's preventing his public-interest defense, which he might otherwise have had. There is no specific provision in the Espionage Act that forbids a public-interest defense (in fact, there's not much specific in the Espionage Act at all); and in fact the Whistleblower Protection Act and related laws exist to ALLOW such defenses. But whistleblowers have to go about their actions in the right way, and Snowden didn't do that. Info dumps and vomiting classified unredacted material all over the Internet is not responsible whistleblowing; and bragging about it afterward kind of sabotages your defense; in much the same way that posting your armed robbery on your Facebook page negates your defense of giving all the money away to poor orphans after the fact.
 
2014-01-23 08:41:53 PM

grimlock1972: Snowden willing and knowingly broke the law, he plotted to do so well before he committed his criminal acts, he has admitted as much.

yes he revealed what the NSA was up to in regards to US Citizens, but the ends do not justify the means.

Also i would not be surprised if he is giving Russia secrets in exchange for his safe haven.

I do not want him dead, i want him to face trial and more than likely be convicted.

He is no hero he is a criminal.


Just because what he did was illegal doesn't mean he's not a hero. He's no less a hero than the people who film cops beating up black people for fun in places where filming the police is illegal.
 
2014-01-23 08:54:55 PM
snowden is an american hero

nsa, congress, obama should all be tried and hung
 
2014-01-23 08:57:52 PM

Nabb1: Solutare: Cagey B: It's f*cking disgraceful that the prospect of indefinite detainment and torture by American authorities is so plausible that the AG had to specifically promise not to.

AMERICA! fark YEAH!

I would be okay if everyone in America who ever supported torture or indefinite detainment suddenly died.

The Administration supports indefinite detention of "terror suspects," as do most of the Congress and Senate, so that would clear DC out pretty quick.


Genuinely curious--what is your view on the subject?
 
2014-01-23 09:07:46 PM
Even if we were to accept all of the bizarre rationalizations for what the NSA did, has anyone heard anything on why random, run-of-the-mill contractors should have access to so many of our nation's most important secrets? This isn't a former President blurting out something he was told in a briefing, this is a random schmuck who was hired for a job that (presumably) did not involve every bit of information the NSA collected.

You can't tell me that people under color of authority aren't looking up the records of ex-girlfriends or just people who annoy them. There seems to be nothing in place to prevent it. Maybe if the Fed got their own house in order, the Snowdens of the world wouldn't have access to all of the embarrassing bits. "Here is all the scandalous information of the President of Mali -- and nothing else!" wouldn't grab headlines.
 
2014-01-23 09:09:17 PM

grimlock1972: Snowden willing and knowingly broke the law, he plotted to do so well before he committed his criminal acts, he has admitted as much.

yes he revealed what the NSA was up to in regards to US Citizens, but the ends do not justify the means.

Also i would not be surprised if he is giving Russia secrets in exchange for his safe haven.

I do not want him dead, i want him to face trial and more than likely be convicted.

He is no hero he is a criminal.


That is seriously delusional. His motives are crystal clear to those of us who are not insane. The government was violating your rights, your neighbour's rights and everyone else's, Snowden recognized this and had the balls to expose it. He is absolutely, 100% a hero.
 
2014-01-23 09:09:47 PM
I feel like I can trust Holder.
 
2014-01-23 09:11:22 PM

doctor wu: His motives are crystal clear to those of us who are not insane living in a fantasy world where everything is starkly black and white.

 
2014-01-23 09:12:51 PM
Were the people who are calling for Snowden's head equally as outraged about the outing of Valerie Plame?
 
2014-01-23 09:16:00 PM

grimlock1972: Snowden willing and knowingly broke the law, he plotted to do so well before he committed his criminal acts, he has admitted as much.

yes he revealed what the NSA was up to in regards to US Citizens, but the ends do not justify the means.

Also i would not be surprised if he is giving Russia secrets in exchange for his safe haven.

I do not want him dead, i want him to face trial and more than likely be convicted.

He is no hero he is a criminal.


Your whole government is criminal Mr. White Caped Crusader of Truth and Conviction. What about Cheney, Rumsfeld and Bush and the 100,000-600,000+ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Iraq_War ) Iraqi civilians that were killed in an aggressive invasion of a foreign entity for a Haliburton contract and some oil? What about spraying Agent Orange on Cambodia and Laos (that you weren't even in a BS war with)(http://www.agentorangerecord.com/agent_orange_history/in_cambod ia_laos / )? What about destabilizing the whole middle east into turmoil and civil war?
Would you have been happier knowing Agent Orange is a drink mix and that you went to Iraq for "democracy" (lol)? Because someone had to expose that. Torture them too, goddamn traitors. 'Murka! Puck Yeaaarrrhhh'!

You got shiat on your face yet you're still pointing fingers.

And Snowden isn't a criminal, but a whistle blower trying to expose unconstitutional corruption and espionage under the guile of liberty and domestic security.

"America, the only right way!"
 
2014-01-23 09:16:04 PM

Gyrfalcon: Info dumps and vomiting classified unredacted material all over the Internet is not responsible whistleblowing; and bragging about it afterward kind of sabotages your defense; in much the same way that posting your armed robbery on your Facebook page negates your defense of giving all the money away to poor orphans after the fact.


Could you point to specific instances of Snowden doing "info dumps" and "vomiting classified unredacted material" all over? Greenwald has a copy. The Guardian has a copy. Various other people or systems have copies as a dead man's switch. No names or identifying information about government agents has been released as far as I know, nor have any technical documents or blueprints been released that could allow foreign governments to recreate the US's surveillance apparatuses.

His methods are much more Woodward and Bernstein than Wikileaks.
 
2014-01-23 09:16:37 PM

doctor wu: Were the people who are calling for Snowden's head equally as outraged about the outing of Valerie Plame?

 
2014-01-23 09:19:26 PM

Gyrfalcon: His primary defense isn't disallowed by law. It's prevented by his own damn stupidity.


All the same, I'd like to see him try and argue it anyway, just for the lulz. It'll be fun hearing his explanation for exactly whose "public interest" is being served by revealing details of surveillance on Chinese universities and Brazilian oil companies.
 
2014-01-23 09:31:33 PM

Barry Lyndon's Annuity Cheque: His methods are much more Woodward and Bernstein than Wikileaks.


It would be Greenwald who would be Woodward/Bernstein in this scenario (though not really). The actual leaker for the Pentagon Papers (Ellsberg) was indeed prosecuted, ant the case only fell apart due to procedural issues with how the evidence against him was collected. There's never been any legal principle or tradition protecting people who leak classified information to the press.
 
2014-01-23 09:34:40 PM
The more this goes on, the more his media persona resembles Emmanuel Goldstein.  Soon it will be just a face.
 
2014-01-23 09:40:39 PM

djkutch: Nabb1: Solutare: Cagey B: It's f*cking disgraceful that the prospect of indefinite detainment and torture by American authorities is so plausible that the AG had to specifically promise not to.

AMERICA! fark YEAH!

I would be okay if everyone in America who ever supported torture or indefinite detainment suddenly died.

The Administration supports indefinite detention of "terror suspects," as do most of the Congress and Senate, so that would clear DC out pretty quick.

Genuinely curious--what is your view on the subject?


I am opposed to torture and indefinite detention of suspects. I'm rather appalled we have a Congress and Senate that passed a law authorizing indefinite detention and a President who signed off on it.
 
2014-01-23 09:48:03 PM

doctor wu: Were the people who are calling for Snowden's head equally as outraged about the outing of Valerie Plame?


I was absofarkinglutely pissed.
 
2014-01-23 09:49:06 PM

chachi88: doctor wu: Were the people who are calling for Snowden's head equally as outraged about the outing of Valerie Plame?

I was absofarkinglutely pissed.


I was thinking that that is basically the same group of people.
 
2014-01-23 10:01:57 PM

grimlock1972: Snowden willing and knowingly broke the law, he plotted to do so well before he committed his criminal acts, he has admitted as much.

yes he revealed what the NSA was up to in regards to US Citizens, but the ends do not justify the means.

Also i would not be surprised if he is giving Russia secrets in exchange for his safe haven.

I do not want him dead, i want him to face trial and more than likely be convicted.

He is no hero he is a criminal.


Sounds a lot like the guy we just had a holiday for this week.

I look forward to celebrating Snowden Day in the future after the Constitution has been restored and our government is no longer being run by AIPAC and the military-industrial complex.
 
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