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(The New York Times)   Obama: "We need to overhaul and limit our spying. That's change we can believe in" Obama appointed privacy board: "Good call. These spying programs are illegal." Obama: "Whoa there, not so fast"   (nytimes.com ) divider line
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1270 clicks; posted to Politics » on 23 Jan 2014 at 5:07 PM (2 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-01-23 04:46:53 PM  
"An independent federal privacy watchdog has concluded that the National Security Agency's program to collect bulk phone call records has provided only "minimal" benefits in counterterrorism efforts, is illegal and should be shut down. "

It may surprise subby to learn that independent agencies do not have the same currency as the judicial branch when it comes to saying, with any sort of authoritative effect, that something is illegal.
 
2014-01-23 05:11:46 PM  
Pay wall.
 
2014-01-23 05:12:45 PM  

theteacher: Pay wall.


Here's a non-paywall link:

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/01/23/us/politics/watchdog-report-says-n sa -program-is-illegal-and-should-end.html

//You may have to clear cookies first
//not subby
 
2014-01-23 05:13:33 PM  
Correction: technically not a "non-paywall link" but it won't make you hit paywall immediately if you clear cookies.
 
2014-01-23 05:13:55 PM  
"But the other two members - Rachel L. Brand and Elisebeth Collins Cook, both of whom were Justice Department lawyers in the George W. Bush administration - rejected the finding that the program was illegal."

I am Jack's complete lack of surprise.
 
2014-01-23 05:15:49 PM  

TheBeastOfYuccaFlats: "An independent federal privacy watchdog has concluded that the National Security Agency's program to collect bulk phone call records has provided only "minimal" benefits in counterterrorism efforts, is illegal and should be shut down. "

It may surprise subby to learn that independent agencies do not have the same currency as the judicial branch when it comes to saying, with any sort of authoritative effect, that something is illegal.



I suspect it may surprise this "independent watchdog" group that there may be things about those "minimal benefits" that they don't know about. Yet.
 
2014-01-23 05:16:59 PM  
I missed the part of the article where Obama said "not so fast" or anything similar.
 
2014-01-23 05:18:11 PM  

TheBeastOfYuccaFlats: "An independent federal privacy watchdog has concluded that the National Security Agency's program to collect bulk phone call records has provided only "minimal" benefits in counterterrorism efforts, is illegal and should be shut down. "

It may surprise subby to learn that independent agencies do not have the same currency as the judicial branch when it comes to saying, with any sort of authoritative effect, that something is illegal.


/thread

The only thing you're missing is that this indepdent group somehow magically decided that collecting the data made/makes no difference in stopping terrorism, which of course they don't have the information to determine because it's classified.
 
2014-01-23 05:23:12 PM  

Mr_Fabulous: TheBeastOfYuccaFlats: "An independent federal privacy watchdog has concluded that the National Security Agency's program to collect bulk phone call records has provided only "minimal" benefits in counterterrorism efforts, is illegal and should be shut down. "

It may surprise subby to learn that independent agencies do not have the same currency as the judicial branch when it comes to saying, with any sort of authoritative effect, that something is illegal.


I suspect it may surprise this "independent watchdog" group that there may be things about those "minimal benefits" that they don't know about. Yet.


correcto mundo  there's things goin on that we don't know.  I hate the loss of privacy, but i don't see any way we can protect ourselves from those that would do us harm without tapping in to all that data.
it's a brave new world.
R.I.P privacy.
 
2014-01-23 05:25:24 PM  

a particular individual: I missed the part of the article where Obama said "not so fast" or anything similar.


Seconded. Must be in there pretty deep.
 
2014-01-23 05:30:50 PM  
It's funny how no one but the career politicians are willing to claim all the NSA spying is legal.

The professional are aware of how history will treat those who make a mockery of the Constitution ( ie locking up the Japanese during WWII).
 
2014-01-23 05:32:57 PM  
Is it just non US getting asked to login?
 
2014-01-23 05:33:37 PM  

justtray: TheBeastOfYuccaFlats: "An independent federal privacy watchdog has concluded that the National Security Agency's program to collect bulk phone call records has provided only "minimal" benefits in counterterrorism efforts, is illegal and should be shut down. "

It may surprise subby to learn that independent agencies do not have the same currency as the judicial branch when it comes to saying, with any sort of authoritative effect, that something is illegal.

/thread

The only thing you're missing is that this indepdent group somehow magically decided that collecting the data made/makes no difference in stopping terrorism, which of course they don't have the information to determine because it's classified.


No it's not. The NSA gave several examples of where spying allowed them to prevent terror attacks.

The only claim that withstood a liberal arts graduate investigation was the guy in California that sent $3,500 to a 'terror' organization*.

*far far less than Bank America & HSBC admitted to.
 
2014-01-23 05:38:11 PM  
I am sorry didn't Obama say he was going to make changes to this program to make it very different then it currently runs with more safe guards including the government not directly holding the data?

So the whole he is ignoring it like subby implies seems kind of bullshiat.
 
2014-01-23 05:40:07 PM  

Corvus: I am sorry didn't Obama say he was going to make changes to this program to make it very different then it currently runs with more safe guards including the government not directly holding the data?

So the whole he is ignoring it like subby implies seems kind of bullshiat.


It implies blackmail.
 
2014-01-23 05:40:13 PM  

colon_pow: Mr_Fabulous: TheBeastOfYuccaFlats: "An independent federal privacy watchdog has concluded that the National Security Agency's program to collect bulk phone call records has provided only "minimal" benefits in counterterrorism efforts, is illegal and should be shut down. "

It may surprise subby to learn that independent agencies do not have the same currency as the judicial branch when it comes to saying, with any sort of authoritative effect, that something is illegal.


I suspect it may surprise this "independent watchdog" group that there may be things about those "minimal benefits" that they don't know about. Yet.

correcto mundo  there's things goin on that we don't know.  I hate the loss of privacy, but i don't see any way we can protect ourselves from those that would do us harm without tapping in to all that data.
it's a brave new world.
R.I.P privacy.


When they say freedom isn't free, this is one of the things they're talking about. The potential for bad shiat to happen exists in a free society. It exists in a not-so-free society as well, but nevermind that. We've got to make the world safe and secure, no matter the cost. Because if it saves even one life... For the children!
 
2014-01-23 05:42:56 PM  
You damn dirty Liebruls will affect my profits if you stop violating the Constitution!!!
i.imgur.com

The Father, the son, the glorious nucular annihilation that was not.
i.imgur.com

I've had it up to here with all this war mongering shiat and blowing up non-white people in the name of the military/industrial complex.
Can't we all just get along?
Oh and do we really need to put 200,000 spy agency/TSA employees out of work? Jr worked hard to hide some of that shiat and it may be quite more than that.
But hell, these nude images of Sarah Palin, from the airport x-ray machines, are quite cute and Congress loves fapping to the millions of male images.
i.imgur.com
 
2014-01-23 05:48:23 PM  

justtray: TheBeastOfYuccaFlats: "An independent federal privacy watchdog has concluded that the National Security Agency's program to collect bulk phone call records has provided only "minimal" benefits in counterterrorism efforts, is illegal and should be shut down. "

It may surprise subby to learn that independent agencies do not have the same currency as the judicial branch when it comes to saying, with any sort of authoritative effect, that something is illegal.

/thread

The only thing you're missing is that this indepdent group somehow magically decided that collecting the data made/makes no difference in stopping terrorism, which of course they don't have the information to determine because it's classified.


Well, these bozos seems to believe they haven't stopped any terrorism.

Sure, doesn't mean they won't.

I guess we just have to error on the side if freedom.

http://investigations.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/12/20/21975158-nsa-progr a m-stopped-no-terror-attacks-says-white-house-panel-member?lite
 
2014-01-23 05:58:55 PM  

Eddie Ate Dynamite: The potential for bad shiat to happen exists in a free society. It exists in a not-so-free society as well, but nevermind that. We've got to make the world safe and secure, no matter the cost.


To be clear, no one is saying "no matter the cost". But we shouldn't fool ourselves about the potential cost, any more than we should fool ourselves about the consequences of eroding liberties.

It's a delicate balancing act, and anyone who thinks this issue is a slam-dunk no-brainer, one way or the other, needs to think harder.
 
2014-01-23 06:02:21 PM  

a particular individual: I missed the part of the article where Obama said "not so fast" or anything similar.


He said that before the report came out, I guess. That pesky time machine again.
 
2014-01-23 06:07:52 PM  
It's a no-brainer.

The "war" with Al Qaeda is not a war, it is a police action Bush initiated and we're stuck picking up the garbage.

The honorable thing to do is shift this to an international solution. Yeah I know the hardliners would shiat their pants if he proposed that.

So I guess Obama's content to be hounded by the history books as the President who continued to stay the course, even though the course was bullshiat.
 
2014-01-23 06:09:10 PM  

colon_pow: correcto mundo there's things goin on that we don't know. I hate the loss of privacy, but i don't see any way we can protect ourselves from those that would do us harm without tapping in to all that data.


i have a magic rock i'll sell you. it has kept me terrorist free since the OK bombing. i was going to loan it to Bush but he said that after he threw out Clinton's intel he'd be ok with his PDR.

look let's face it if there really were actionable intel the government would snatch up whoever and perp walk them just for the PR. they missed 9/11 completely, the LAX "bombing" was a farce, richard reid was stopped in the air, the NYC guy's bomb failed to fire, the boston bombing happened and the FBI shot the one guy who might have been able to tell us what was going on.

from the patriot act on we, all of us to a greater or lessor degree, have been running around being chicken little and for what? seriously for what? we have spent a shiat ton of money, enriched lord knows how many congressional buddies, stood in lines with our shoes in hand, had our phones, emails, and internet usage monitored and once more i ask why? just WTF did you and i get from this? besides pissed off.

and USA USA with a crying eagle isn't an apt response.
 
2014-01-23 06:23:52 PM  
I still don't understand the surprise that the NSA is spying/monitoring so much. Most people I know have presumed this to be true for decades. I named my wireless network "NSA" as a joke 5 years ago. I mean, the NSA has been around for 50+ years - what do people think they've been doing? It's also been presumed that who is president has nothing to do with what they do. Nor do laws govern what they do - only what they profess to do.

Am I crazy, or do the majority of people in this country actually believe this is new and that they - or even a president - can make it go away? It's not that I support it, it's that I view it as impossible to alter in any meaningful way.

Am I missing something in all of this? Probably....just thought I'd ask.
 
2014-01-23 06:27:56 PM  

miltonbabbitt: I still don't understand the surprise that the NSA is spying/monitoring so much. Most people I know have presumed this to be true for decades. I named my wireless network "NSA" as a joke 5 years ago. I mean, the NSA has been around for 50+ years - what do people think they've been doing? It's also been presumed that who is president has nothing to do with what they do. Nor do laws govern what they do - only what they profess to do.

Am I crazy, or do the majority of people in this country actually believe this is new and that they - or even a president - can make it go away? It's not that I support it, it's that I view it as impossible to alter in any meaningful way.

Am I missing something in all of this? Probably....just thought I'd ask.


Because before the Snowden leaks, there was no verified admission that the NSA was doing it, and for what reason. Either chalk that up to better communication technology overall in the world of journalism, or maybe it's because we do have a human Presidential administration (for once) who's willing to talk about it somewhat openly.
 
2014-01-23 06:34:39 PM  

Curious: colon_pow: correcto mundo there's things goin on that we don't know. I hate the loss of privacy, but i don't see any way we can protect ourselves from those that would do us harm without tapping in to all that data.

i have a magic rock i'll sell you. it has kept me terrorist free since the OK bombing. i was going to loan it to Bush but he said that after he threw out Clinton's intel he'd be ok with his PDR.

look let's face it if there really were actionable intel the government would snatch up whoever and perp walk them just for the PR. they missed 9/11 completely, the LAX "bombing" was a farce, richard reid was stopped in the air, the NYC guy's bomb failed to fire, the boston bombing happened and the FBI shot the one guy who might have been able to tell us what was going on.

from the patriot act on we, all of us to a greater or lessor degree, have been running around being chicken little and for what? seriously for what? we have spent a shiat ton of money, enriched lord knows how many congressional buddies, stood in lines with our shoes in hand, had our phones, emails, and internet usage monitored and once more i ask why? just WTF did you and i get from this? besides pissed off.

and USA USA with a crying eagle isn't an apt response.


vet the monitors.  lots of oversight.  criminal penalties for unauthorized snooping.  stuff like that.
 
2014-01-23 06:39:12 PM  

miltonbabbitt: I still don't understand the surprise that the NSA is spying/monitoring so much. Most people I know have presumed this to be true for decades. I named my wireless network "NSA" as a joke 5 years ago. I mean, the NSA has been around for 50+ years - what do people think they've been doing? It's also been presumed that who is president has nothing to do with what they do. Nor do laws govern what they do - only what they profess to do.

Am I crazy, or do the majority of people in this country actually believe this is new and that they - or even a president - can make it go away? It's not that I support it, it's that I view it as impossible to alter in any meaningful way.

Am I missing something in all of this? Probably....just thought I'd ask.


Well, I think people dismissed the theories that it was as invasive and ubiquitous as it turned out to be.  So in a sense, yes, I think the majority of people were somewhat surprised.  There's also a good number who knew something was up behind the scenes, but preferred not to think about it as long as it was secret.  Ignorance is bliss.  Like that dude in the Matrix wanting to eat steaks or whatever.
 
2014-01-23 06:42:34 PM  

whidbey: miltonbabbitt: I still don't understand the surprise that the NSA is spying/monitoring so much. Most people I know have presumed this to be true for decades. I named my wireless network "NSA" as a joke 5 years ago. I mean, the NSA has been around for 50+ years - what do people think they've been doing? It's also been presumed that who is president has nothing to do with what they do. Nor do laws govern what they do - only what they profess to do.

Am I crazy, or do the majority of people in this country actually believe this is new and that they - or even a president - can make it go away? It's not that I support it, it's that I view it as impossible to alter in any meaningful way.

Am I missing something in all of this? Probably....just thought I'd ask.

Because before the Snowden leaks, there was no verified admission that the NSA was doing it, and for what reason. Either chalk that up to better communication technology overall in the world of journalism, or maybe it's because we do have a human Presidential administration (for once) who's willing to talk about it somewhat openly.


Obama had never talked openly about the NSA.
 
2014-01-23 07:26:35 PM  

QU!RK1019: Well, I think people dismissed the theories that it was as invasive and ubiquitous as it turned out to be. So in a sense, yes, I think the majority of people were somewhat surprised. There's also a good number who knew something was up behind the scenes, but preferred not to think about it as long as it was secret. Ignorance is bliss. Like that dude in the Matrix wanting to eat steaks or whatever.


Threadjack:

Here's my thought on the matrix: Life sucks. Working sucks. You jack me into a custom Virtual Reality that lets me live out whatever fantasy I want? fark it, plug me in, I'm down. Why the hell should I have to be stuck feeding myself and providing for myself when you can turn me into a battery and let me blissfully while away a century as a well-hung heroic god surrounded by beautiful babes of my choice, and the ability to change fantasies at will?

They acted like humanity would rebel against the concept of the matrix...I disagree: If they openly said "here, we need your body heat for power, and in exchange we'll give you your own custom VR world better than any video game out there customized entirely to your tastes, you'll never go hungry, you'll never get sick, and you'll get to do whatever you want;" No human would turn that down. No human is that dumb. No human is ever going to say  "No thanks, I prefer to have to live with the daily potential I'll die or get sick or starve to death, thanks."

End Threadjack
 
2014-01-23 07:54:33 PM  
Look you libfarts. Just because the NSA is insanely expensive, ineffectual at it's stated purpose, and violates the rights of Americans is no need to shut it down.

/I am ashamed at the cowardice of my own government.
 
2014-01-23 08:00:25 PM  

Kit Fister: QU!RK1019: Well, I think people dismissed the theories that it was as invasive and ubiquitous as it turned out to be. So in a sense, yes, I think the majority of people were somewhat surprised. There's also a good number who knew something was up behind the scenes, but preferred not to think about it as long as it was secret. Ignorance is bliss. Like that dude in the Matrix wanting to eat steaks or whatever.

Threadjack:

Here's my thought on the matrix: Life sucks. Working sucks. You jack me into a custom Virtual Reality that lets me live out whatever fantasy I want? fark it, plug me in, I'm down. Why the hell should I have to be stuck feeding myself and providing for myself when you can turn me into a battery and let me blissfully while away a century as a well-hung heroic god surrounded by beautiful babes of my choice, and the ability to change fantasies at will?

They acted like humanity would rebel against the concept of the matrix...I disagree: If they openly said "here, we need your body heat for power, and in exchange we'll give you your own custom VR world better than any video game out there customized entirely to your tastes, you'll never go hungry, you'll never get sick, and you'll get to do whatever you want;" No human would turn that down. No human is that dumb. No human is ever going to say  "No thanks, I prefer to have to live with the daily potential I'll die or get sick or starve to death, thanks."

End Threadjack


The day you can plug in and have a three way with Scarlet Johansson and Megan Fox is the day civilization ends.  Yes, count me in.
 
2014-01-23 08:57:35 PM  
obama, once america's hope, is just another brick in the wall
 
2014-01-23 09:01:19 PM  

justtray: TheBeastOfYuccaFlats: "An independent federal privacy watchdog has concluded that the National Security Agency's program to collect bulk phone call records has provided only "minimal" benefits in counterterrorism efforts, is illegal and should be shut down. "

It may surprise subby to learn that independent agencies do not have the same currency as the judicial branch when it comes to saying, with any sort of authoritative effect, that something is illegal.

/thread

The only thing you're missing is that this indepdent group somehow magically decided that collecting the data made/makes no difference in stopping terrorism, which of course they don't have the information to determine because it's classified.


/murica!
 
2014-01-23 09:18:19 PM  

whidbey: miltonbabbitt: I still don't understand the surprise that the NSA is spying/monitoring so much. Most people I know have presumed this to be true for decades. I named my wireless network "NSA" as a joke 5 years ago. I mean, the NSA has been around for 50+ years - what do people think they've been doing? It's also been presumed that who is president has nothing to do with what they do. Nor do laws govern what they do - only what they profess to do.

Am I crazy, or do the majority of people in this country actually believe this is new and that they - or even a president - can make it go away? It's not that I support it, it's that I view it as impossible to alter in any meaningful way.

Am I missing something in all of this? Probably....just thought I'd ask.

Because before the Snowden leaks, there was no verified admission that the NSA was doing it, and for what reason. Either chalk that up to better communication technology overall in the world of journalism, or maybe it's because we do have a human Presidential administration (for once) who's willing to talk about it somewhat openly.


Actually, there was a lot of verified admission; just that nobody chose to acknowledge it. I don't know why, exactly--the earliest I knew of the NSA's intercepts was in Carl Sagan's "Demon Haunted World" when he casually mentioned the NSA was listening to practically everything, everywhere, all the time; and he was hardly outside the loop. Going on from there, a little cursory research even in the pre-Internet days could locate half a dozen sources of where and how the NSA was listening to anything they wanted to with ears agape and virtually no oversight.

I think it's because either everyone chose not to, thinking that it was only going on overseas (as an artifact of the Cold War then raging), or comforted themselves with the prevalent notion that they were only eavesdropping on bad guys and would never spy on Good Americans. Certainly we should have known as early as 2006 (with the trial of Kenneth Ford) or even 2010 (with the Trailblazer leaks); but the writing was on the wall even in the 1980's with the huge raft of Soviet spy cases: How did anyone think those spies were being outed? Elves? Magic 8-Ball? No...there was somebody intercepting their phone and mail traffic and passing it along to the Feds. But nobody cared during the hot days of the Cold War because they were evil Soviet spies.

Well, we care now because the Evil Empire has collapsed and its harder to justify wiretapping a few phantom terrorist cells. And of course more people are worried about somehow being monitored because they want to post naked pictures of themselves cavorting all over Facebook without repercussions. And why it matters that "well, before now we never really KNEW they were doing anything bad" as if that somehow relieves us of any responsibility or makes the NSAs actions somehow more heinous because we suddenly discovered it, is beyond me. If you think your next-door  neighbor is a serial killer, it behooves you either to act as though he were, or call the cops right away and let them find out; or you sound like the idiot neighbors after a 40-year killing spree who say "Gee, Jeffrey was always such a nice quiet guy, there were never any signs he was killing and eating all those boys who disappeared..." Well, why did you wait to call the cops, Mrs. Dumbass? "Well, we never really KNEW anything...just that boys disappeared all the time, but who can say..."
 
2014-01-23 09:28:35 PM  

sheep snorter: You damn dirty Liebruls will affect my profits if you stop violating the Constitution!!!
[i.imgur.com image 240x260]

The Father, the son, the glorious nucular annihilation that was not.
[i.imgur.com image 430x410]

I've had it up to here with all this war mongering shiat and blowing up non-white people in the name of the military/industrial complex.
Can't we all just get along?
Oh and do we really need to put 200,000 spy agency/TSA employees out of work? Jr worked hard to hide some of that shiat and it may be quite more than that.
But hell, these nude images of Sarah Palin, from the airport x-ray machines, are quite cute and Congress loves fapping to the millions of male images.
[i.imgur.com image 500x325]


www.culture-games.com
 
2014-01-23 09:50:34 PM  
This is a good thread for labeling authoritarian lapdogs, that's for damn sure.  A federal review board, established by the government to study exactly these types of questions, has concluded that the program of bulk collection of phone records is illegal, serves no useful function, and impinges on the privacy rights of Americans.  They conclude that it therefore should be ended.

The lapdogs response: "Oh Yeah? Well it might be useful.  You don't know."  They are paid to know.  They are authorized to have access to any classified information that they need in order to perform their function, and to take testimony from anyone in or employed by the executive branch, and to request the Attorney General subpoena anyone else they might want to hear from.

Seriously, just admit that you're farking cowards, and that there is no right you would not surrender if someone in power told you it was for your own good.
 
2014-01-23 10:14:13 PM  

murderguy: This is a good thread for labeling authoritarian lapdogs, that's for damn sure.  A federal review board, established by the government to study exactly these types of questions, has concluded that the program of bulk collection of phone records is illegal, serves no useful function, and impinges on the privacy rights of Americans.  They conclude that it therefore should be ended.

The lapdogs response: "Oh Yeah? Well it might be useful.  You don't know."  They are paid to know.  They are authorized to have access to any classified information that they need in order to perform their function, and to take testimony from anyone in or employed by the executive branch, and to request the Attorney General subpoena anyone else they might want to hear from.

Seriously, just admit that you're farking cowards, and that there is no right you would not surrender if someone in power told you it was for your own good.


You got a cite for that, or are you just tilting at strawmen?
 
2014-01-23 10:22:49 PM  

Gyrfalcon: murderguy: This is a good thread for labeling authoritarian lapdogs, that's for damn sure.  A federal review board, established by the government to study exactly these types of questions, has concluded that the program of bulk collection of phone records is illegal, serves no useful function, and impinges on the privacy rights of Americans.  They conclude that it therefore should be ended.

The lapdogs response: "Oh Yeah? Well it might be useful.  You don't know."  They are paid to know.  They are authorized to have access to any classified information that they need in order to perform their function, and to take testimony from anyone in or employed by the executive branch, and to request the Attorney General subpoena anyone else they might want to hear from.

Seriously, just admit that you're farking cowards, and that there is no right you would not surrender if someone in power told you it was for your own good.

You got a cite for that, or are you just tilting at strawmen?


It explains a lot about how the constant and continuous Fark commenters like you manage to spew so many posts over so many threads.  You don't actually read the threads.  Seriously, though, are you all retired, or what?

Anyway, let me go back through the whole 34 comments preceding mine and find the lapdogs:

Mr_Fabulous: I suspect it may surprise this "independent watchdog" group that there may be things about those "minimal benefits" that they don't know about. Yet.


colon_pow: correcto mundo there's things goin on that we don't know. I hate the loss of privacy, but i don't see any way we can protect ourselves from those that would do us harm without tapping in to all that data.
it's a brave new world.
R.I.P privacy.


You may also be a lapdog, but frankly I don't read your posts.
 
2014-01-23 10:25:41 PM  

colon_pow: vet the monitors. lots of oversight. criminal penalties for unauthorized snooping. stuff like that.


when that gun grabber san fransisco libby liberal diane feinstein says we ought to just trust them where are you going for oversight? the FISA court has demonstrably fallen down on that. congress gets "briefed" but can't talk about what they heard. and they can't take notes or have staff there.

and any criminal trials would be out of sight due to the great bugaboo "national security".

no throw out the patriot act. get rid of 90% of the NSA. and while we are doing that scale back DHS (the very name is offensive) to a small committee that meets once a month and reviews/coordinates DOJ/CIA/NSA/FBI/ETC/ETC. all the alphabet agencies. pull FEMA out too.
 
2014-01-23 10:34:12 PM  

Curious: colon_pow: vet the monitors. lots of oversight. criminal penalties for unauthorized snooping. stuff like that.

when that gun grabber san fransisco libby liberal diane feinstein says we ought to just trust them where are you going for oversight? the FISA court has demonstrably fallen down on that. congress gets "briefed" but can't talk about what they heard. and they can't take notes or have staff there.

and any criminal trials would be out of sight due to the great bugaboo "national security".

no throw out the patriot act. get rid of 90% of the NSA. and while we are doing that scale back DHS (the very name is offensive) to a small committee that meets once a month and reviews/coordinates DOJ/CIA/NSA/FBI/ETC/ETC. all the alphabet agencies. pull FEMA out too.


I agree entirely.  It is a real problem because of the broad bipartisan agreement.  It seems to me that everyone in government should be concerned because of the enormous power it gives to the NSA, and the intelligence agencies in general, to blackmail them for watching Eskimo midget porn and sexting their poodles (or whatever it is they do).
 
2014-01-23 10:46:33 PM  

murderguy: Gyrfalcon: murderguy: This is a good thread for labeling authoritarian lapdogs, that's for damn sure.  A federal review board, established by the government to study exactly these types of questions, has concluded that the program of bulk collection of phone records is illegal, serves no useful function, and impinges on the privacy rights of Americans.  They conclude that it therefore should be ended.

The lapdogs response: "Oh Yeah? Well it might be useful.  You don't know."  They are paid to know.  They are authorized to have access to any classified information that they need in order to perform their function, and to take testimony from anyone in or employed by the executive branch, and to request the Attorney General subpoena anyone else they might want to hear from.

Seriously, just admit that you're farking cowards, and that there is no right you would not surrender if someone in power told you it was for your own good.

You got a cite for that, or are you just tilting at strawmen?

It explains a lot about how the constant and continuous Fark commenters like you manage to spew so many posts over so many threads.  You don't actually read the threads.  Seriously, though, are you all retired, or what?

Anyway, let me go back through the whole 34 comments preceding mine and find the lapdogs:

Mr_Fabulous: I suspect it may surprise this "independent watchdog" group that there may be things about those "minimal benefits" that they don't know about. Yet.

colon_pow: correcto mundo there's things goin on that we don't know. I hate the loss of privacy, but i don't see any way we can protect ourselves from those that would do us harm without tapping in to all that data.
it's a brave new world.
R.I.P privacy.

You may also be a lapdog, but frankly I don't read your posts.


I guess irony isn't your strong suit, along with reading comprehension.
 
2014-01-23 10:49:31 PM  

Gyrfalcon: I guess irony isn't your strong suit, along with reading comprehension.


Perhaps.  Are you suggesting I misunderstood these two posters?  Feel free to explain them to me.
 
2014-01-23 11:31:20 PM  

Curious: colon_pow: vet the monitors. lots of oversight. criminal penalties for unauthorized snooping. stuff like that.

when that gun grabber san fransisco libby liberal diane feinstein says we ought to just trust them where are you going for oversight? the FISA court has demonstrably fallen down on that. congress gets "briefed" but can't talk about what they heard. and they can't take notes or have staff there.

and any criminal trials would be out of sight due to the great bugaboo "national security".

no throw out the patriot act. get rid of 90% of the NSA. and while we are doing that scale back DHS (the very name is offensive) to a small committee that meets once a month and reviews/coordinates DOJ/CIA/NSA/FBI/ETC/ETC. all the alphabet agencies. pull FEMA out too.


It always amazes me when freepers, or anyone against NSA provide so much information on their fark bio alone that they could be found and have their identity stolen within hours, if not minutes.
 
2014-01-23 11:42:29 PM  

justtray: Curious: colon_pow: vet the monitors. lots of oversight. criminal penalties for unauthorized snooping. stuff like that.

when that gun grabber san fransisco libby liberal diane feinstein says we ought to just trust them where are you going for oversight? the FISA court has demonstrably fallen down on that. congress gets "briefed" but can't talk about what they heard. and they can't take notes or have staff there.

and any criminal trials would be out of sight due to the great bugaboo "national security".

no throw out the patriot act. get rid of 90% of the NSA. and while we are doing that scale back DHS (the very name is offensive) to a small committee that meets once a month and reviews/coordinates DOJ/CIA/NSA/FBI/ETC/ETC. all the alphabet agencies. pull FEMA out too.

It always amazes me when freepers, or anyone against NSA provide so much information on their fark bio alone that they could be found and have their identity stolen within hours, if not minutes.


You sound scared.  It always amazes me what cowards Americans are.
 
2014-01-23 11:51:48 PM  
And because I have to be at the gym in 26 minutes, I'll sign off by preempting the obvious reply, and say we who think the government is overreaching are, by and large, not scared of government.  We're outraged by their assumption of powers that they neither need nor deserve, and disgusted that our fellow citizens are so weak.

May you die peacefully in your bed, having ensured your safety by sacrificing the rights and interests of everyone else.
 
2014-01-24 12:07:43 AM  

Gyrfalcon: whidbey: miltonbabbitt: I still don't understand the surprise that the NSA is spying/monitoring so much. Most people I know have presumed this to be true for decades. I named my wireless network "NSA" as a joke 5 years ago. I mean, the NSA has been around for 50+ years - what do people think they've been doing? It's also been presumed that who is president has nothing to do with what they do. Nor do laws govern what they do - only what they profess to do.

Am I crazy, or do the majority of people in this country actually believe this is new and that they - or even a president - can make it go away? It's not that I support it, it's that I view it as impossible to alter in any meaningful way.

Am I missing something in all of this? Probably....just thought I'd ask.

Because before the Snowden leaks, there was no verified admission that the NSA was doing it, and for what reason. Either chalk that up to better communication technology overall in the world of journalism, or maybe it's because we do have a human Presidential administration (for once) who's willing to talk about it somewhat openly.

Actually, there was a lot of verified admission; just that nobody chose to acknowledge it. I don't know why, exactly--the earliest I knew of the NSA's intercepts was in Carl Sagan's "Demon Haunted World" when he casually mentioned the NSA was listening to practically everything, everywhere, all the time; and he was hardly outside the loop. Going on from there, a little cursory research even in the pre-Internet days could locate half a dozen sources of where and how the NSA was listening to anything they wanted to with ears agape and virtually no oversight.

I think it's because either everyone chose not to, thinking that it was only going on overseas (as an artifact of the Cold War then raging), or comforted themselves with the prevalent notion that they were only eavesdropping on bad guys and would never spy on Good Americans. Certainly we should have known as early as 2006 (w ...


Nice post.
 
2014-01-24 12:56:20 AM  

murderguy: And because I have to be at the gym in 26 minutes, I'll sign off by preempting the obvious reply, and say we who think the government is overreaching are, by and large, not scared of government.  We're outraged by their assumption of powers that they neither need nor deserve, and disgusted that our fellow citizens are so weak.

May you die peacefully in your bed, having ensured your safety by sacrificing the rights and interests of everyone else.


Nothing I could say could possibly make you look more out of touch and ignorant than your own words.
 
m00
2014-01-24 01:06:32 AM  

Kit Fister: They acted like humanity would rebel against the concept of the matrix...I disagree: If they openly said "here, we need your body heat for power, and in exchange we'll give you your own custom VR world better than any video game out there customized entirely to your tastes, you'll never go hungry, you'll never get sick, and you'll get to do whatever you want;" No human would turn that down. No human is that dumb. No human is ever going to say "No thanks, I prefer to have to live with the daily potential I'll die or get sick or starve to death, thanks."


We're actually a lot dumber

Cuz currently they've openly said "here, we need all your labor and your property and your health and your savings and your credit and the credit of your children, and every natural resource on the planet, to support the lavish lifestyle of the 1%. In return you get a computer where you can update your facebook status, tweet pictures of your lunch, and argue on message boards... just make sure everyone votes either D or R and ridicules 3rd party voters" and humans said OKAY!
 
2014-01-24 01:26:26 AM  

m00: Kit Fister: They acted like humanity would rebel against the concept of the matrix...I disagree: If they openly said "here, we need your body heat for power, and in exchange we'll give you your own custom VR world better than any video game out there customized entirely to your tastes, you'll never go hungry, you'll never get sick, and you'll get to do whatever you want;" No human would turn that down. No human is that dumb. No human is ever going to say "No thanks, I prefer to have to live with the daily potential I'll die or get sick or starve to death, thanks."

We're actually a lot dumber

Cuz currently they've openly said "here, we need all your labor and your property and your health and your savings and your credit and the credit of your children, and every natural resource on the planet, to support the lavish lifestyle of the 1%. In return you get a computer where you can update your facebook status, tweet pictures of your lunch, and argue on message boards... just make sure everyone votes either D or R and ridicules 3rd party voters" and humans said OKAY!


you sound boring.
 
2014-01-24 02:27:16 AM  

justtray: TheBeastOfYuccaFlats: "An independent federal privacy watchdog has concluded that the National Security Agency's program to collect bulk phone call records has provided only "minimal" benefits in counterterrorism efforts, is illegal and should be shut down. "

It may surprise subby to learn that independent agencies do not have the same currency as the judicial branch when it comes to saying, with any sort of authoritative effect, that something is illegal.

/thread


But the presidential appointees who secretly advised presidents that these programs were legal had enough currency for their recommendations to become policy. Those people should be listened to but not these people. Right?

The only thing you're missing is that this indepdent group somehow magically decided that collecting the data made/makes no difference in stopping terrorism, which of course they don't have the information to determine because it's classified.

There's no evidence such information exists.
 
2014-01-24 03:52:33 AM  

m00: just make sure everyone votes either D or R and ridicules 3rd party voters" and humans said OKAY!


As long as you don't have a 3rd party and keep talking like a viable alternative to the 2-party system exists, I predict that you will continue to be ridiculed. Blaming Big Brother is kind of silly, too.
 
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