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(Patheos)   Church holds fundraiser for Republican candidate, claims it isn't violating IRS regulations because it would have done the same for any Democrat who responded to their unsent invitations   (patheos.com) divider line 144
    More: Unlikely, IRS, Republicans, Democrats, North Carolina, fundraisers, Baptist church  
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1326 clicks; posted to Politics » on 23 Jan 2014 at 9:32 AM (24 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



144 Comments   (+0 »)
   
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2014-01-23 09:03:51 AM
The brouhaha over "targeting" the Tea party groups is the best thing that ever happened to the Republicans.  They now have cover to push it even further.  So expect more of this shiat in the future.
 
2014-01-23 09:11:15 AM
Evangelists love their Teabaggers.
 
2014-01-23 09:24:42 AM
Meh, they know the IRS will pus out even before the "ERMAHGERD THEY'RE DOING THEY'RE JOBS AND INVESTIGATING OUR BULLshiat SOCIAL WELFARE ORGANIZATIONS"


/hope the IRS wouldn't pus out
//we tax the newspapers, why not tax the churches?
 
2014-01-23 09:25:00 AM
starting at 0:57. What do you see?

It's...kind of...hard....to...say...be...cause...of...chop...py...vid...
 
2014-01-23 09:25:49 AM
I don't know about this particular place, but in a lot of smaller towns a church might be one of a few gathering places, and it's probably a heck of a lot nicer than the school gym or the VFW hall.
 
2014-01-23 09:26:52 AM
we feel like it's very very important to give acknowledgement and encourage people to pray and do their civic duty and step up and be involved in the political process

TAX THEM
 
2014-01-23 09:34:13 AM
Feh. The Democratics can hold theirs at Ebenezer Baptist.
 
2014-01-23 09:37:30 AM
Even if they DID extend the invitation to Democrats, still not ok.  Churches shouldn't be involved in the political process, PERIOD.  It comes with the whole "tax exempt" territory.  Giving "equal time" doesn't mitigate that---it's still political involvement.
 
2014-01-23 09:37:58 AM

Fubini: I don't know about this particular place, but in a lot of smaller towns a church might be one of a few gathering places, and it's probably a heck of a lot nicer than the school gym or the VFW hall.


Except the are not just letting him rent the hall/ use the hall, they are actually also advertising in their news letter to come out and help this candidate.
 
2014-01-23 09:38:04 AM

EvilEgg: The brouhaha over "targeting" the Tea party groups is the best thing that ever happened to the Republicans.  They now have cover to push it even further.  So expect more of this shiat in the future.


I'm fairly sure that was the entire objective.
 
2014-01-23 09:38:20 AM
"When a religion is good, I conceive it will support itself; and when it does not support itself, and God does not care to support it, so that its professors are obliged to call for the help of the civil power, 'tis a sign, I apprehend, of its being a bad one." -- Benjamin Franklin
 
2014-01-23 09:41:09 AM
Oh I cannot wait till the usual shiatstains show up to explain this one.
 
2014-01-23 09:44:44 AM

Dancin_In_Anson: Feh. The Democratics can hold theirs at Ebenezer Baptist.


If they wanted to break the law as well. Don't try to act like this isn't big deal.
 
2014-01-23 09:45:55 AM
Render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and unto God the things that are God's.
 
2014-01-23 09:47:23 AM

Fubini: I don't know about this particular place, but in a lot of smaller towns a church might be one of a few gathering places, and it's probably a heck of a lot nicer than the school gym or the VFW hall.


I don't care its still illegal.
 
2014-01-23 09:49:58 AM

KellyX: Render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and unto God the things that are God's.


Or, you know, get tax exempt status, and pretend your interpretation of the bible lets you decide who gets to be Caesar.
 
2014-01-23 09:50:05 AM
I never hear any of you fark libulardos biatching about MLK and the Southern Christian Leadership Conference


/I feel dirty now
 
2014-01-23 09:50:36 AM
If the church itself does fundraising, they should lose their tax-free status.

If the church just rents out their space to a fundraiser, they should not.

Since they did the former and not the latter, they should lose their tax-free status
 
2014-01-23 09:51:02 AM

KellyX: Render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and unto God the things that are God's.


That sounds a lot like something that the kings and preists would cook up back in their time to make sure the masses knew that BOTH taxes needs to be paid.


/I'm just sayin
 
2014-01-23 09:51:06 AM
From the linked article in TFA:
"A pastor in Columbus County is speaking out about an ad in his church's newsletter about a political fundraiser."
"Pastor Schmidt says, he asked the church council about the ad before it was printed and they agreed if a democratic politician wanted to do the same they would allow it."

In spite of subby's claims, it doesn't look like the church sponsored the fundraiser. They didn't host it at the church and they didn't send an invitation to anyone - they printed an ad/invitation. Churches sell ad space. Hell, our company has purchased ads in church newsletters before. As long as the candidate purchased the ad space (i.e. it wasn't a freebie because of his association with the church) and democrats are also allowed to purchase the same space at the same rate, I'm gonna have to say there's nothing to see here.
 
2014-01-23 09:51:19 AM

Fubini: I don't know about this particular place, but in a lot of smaller towns a church might be one of a few gathering places, and it's probably a heck of a lot nicer than the school gym or the VFW hall.


All the more reason to keep the filthy politicians out of the place.
 
2014-01-23 09:52:41 AM
So now if a Democratic candidate asks him for the same, he'll have to say yes - right?
 
2014-01-23 09:52:44 AM
"Endorsing" or otherwise playing at the fringes of separation is one thing.  Farking fundraising seems to be a particularly egregious violation.
 
2014-01-23 09:52:49 AM

spongeboob: Fubini: I don't know about this particular place, but in a lot of smaller towns a church might be one of a few gathering places, and it's probably a heck of a lot nicer than the school gym or the VFW hall.

Except the are not just letting him rent the hall/ use the hall, they are actually also advertising in their news letter to come out and help this candidate.


I don't really feel that the evidence presented supports the idea that they're promoting a candidate. If you follow the link to the actual church bulletin, it looks like a page full of "this is what's happening at the church this week".
 
2014-01-23 09:53:13 AM
If the IRS investigates, it'll be a scandalf for Obama targeting Right Wing churches.
 
2014-01-23 09:54:07 AM

ScaryBottles: I don't care its still illegal.


I'm pretty sure it isn't, actually.
 
2014-01-23 09:55:40 AM

machoprogrammer: If the church itself does fundraising, they should lose their tax-free status.

If the church just rents out their space to a fundraiser, they should not.

Since they did the former and not the latter, they should lose their tax-free status


Umh not to nit pick but both are perfectly legitimate legal grounds for losing tax status. Neither is okay according to the law. Don't like it? Well I hear its real nice in Tehran this time of year.
 
2014-01-23 09:57:20 AM

Lord_Baull: If the IRS investigates, it'll be a scandalf for Obama targeting Right Wing churches.


Guess that means they won't be voting for Obama this in 2016 =(
 
2014-01-23 09:58:24 AM

ScaryBottles: Umh not to nit pick but both are perfectly legitimate legal grounds for losing tax status. Neither is okay according to the law. Don't like it? Well I hear its real nice in Tehran this time of year.


You are wrong. Sorry.
 
2014-01-23 09:59:30 AM

Fubini: spongeboob: Fubini: I don't know about this particular place, but in a lot of smaller towns a church might be one of a few gathering places, and it's probably a heck of a lot nicer than the school gym or the VFW hall.

Except the are not just letting him rent the hall/ use the hall, they are actually also advertising in their news letter to come out and help this candidate.

I don't really feel that the evidence presented supports the idea that they're promoting a candidate. If you follow the link to the actual church bulletin, it looks like a page full of "this is what's happening at the church this week".


I don't give a fark how you "feel" its breaking the law. Weep and wail all you want it changes nothing.
 
2014-01-23 10:00:31 AM

Fubini: ScaryBottles: Umh not to nit pick but both are perfectly legitimate legal grounds for losing tax status. Neither is okay according to the law. Don't like it? Well I hear its real nice in Tehran this time of year.

You are wrong. Sorry.


Really? Please explain....... In detail.
 
2014-01-23 10:02:52 AM

KellyX: Lord_Baull: If the IRS investigates, it'll be a scandalf for Obama targeting Right Wing churches.

Guess that means they won't be voting for Obama this in 2016 =(


I, for one, am tired of arugula and dijon mustard being forced down my throat.
 
2014-01-23 10:05:32 AM

ScaryBottles: machoprogrammer: If the church itself does fundraising, they should lose their tax-free status.

If the church just rents out their space to a fundraiser, they should not.

Since they did the former and not the latter, they should lose their tax-free status

Umh not to nit pick but both are perfectly legitimate legal grounds for losing tax status. Neither is okay according to the law. Don't like it? Well I hear its real nice in Tehran this time of year.


Interesting. Show your work. I mean, the specific laws underlying your conclusions of law that simply renting out space to someone else for a fundraiser is the basis for losing tax exempt status. I'm not saying you are wrong, but I am interested in you fleshing that out some.
 
2014-01-23 10:08:39 AM

Lord_Baull: If the IRS investigates, it'll be a scandalf for Obama targeting Right Wing churches.


You shall not pass, until you've filled out these forms.
 
2014-01-23 10:11:19 AM

Lord_Baull: If the IRS investigates, it'll be a scandalf for Obama targeting Right Wing churches.


There are plenty of churches in New Orleans he could target to quiet that noise. Their pastors hand out fliers with candidate endorsements all the time.
 
2014-01-23 10:11:33 AM

Fubini: ScaryBottles: Umh not to nit pick but both are perfectly legitimate legal grounds for losing tax status. Neither is okay according to the law. Don't like it? Well I hear its real nice in Tehran this time of year.

You are wrong. Sorry.


GED in law?
 
2014-01-23 10:12:40 AM

Nabb1: ScaryBottles: machoprogrammer: If the church itself does fundraising, they should lose their tax-free status.

If the church just rents out their space to a fundraiser, they should not.

Since they did the former and not the latter, they should lose their tax-free status

Umh not to nit pick but both are perfectly legitimate legal grounds for losing tax status. Neither is okay according to the law. Don't like it? Well I hear its real nice in Tehran this time of year.

Interesting. Show your work. I mean, the specific laws underlying your conclusions of law that simply renting out space to someone else for a fundraiser is the basis for losing tax exempt status. I'm not saying you are wrong, but I am interested in you fleshing that out some.


No need this church didn't rent shiat to this guy they hosted a fundraiser its not the same thing as renting.

host1
hōst/
verb
1.
act as host at (an event) or for (a television or radio program).

rent1
rent/
noun
1.
a tenant's regular payment to a landlord for the use of property or land.
 
2014-01-23 10:13:00 AM

Nabb1: Lord_Baull: If the IRS investigates, it'll be a scandalf for Obama targeting Right Wing churches.

There are plenty of churches in New Orleans he could target to quiet that noise. Their pastors hand out fliers with candidate endorsements all the time.



F'in do it, IRS!
 
2014-01-23 10:14:06 AM

Nabb1: Lord_Baull: If the IRS investigates, it'll be a scandalf for Obama targeting Right Wing churches.

There are plenty of churches in New Orleans he could target to quiet that noise. Their pastors hand out fliers with candidate endorsements all the time.


brunoberry.files.wordpress.com
 
2014-01-23 10:16:26 AM

ScaryBottles: Really? Please explain....... In detail.


Uh, you're the one claiming that this would be a violation of the law. The only way I can prove it's not against the law is by exhaustively examining all laws, and *not* finding one that prohibits the activity.

I can tell you that I've seen this happen all the time, and as far as I know those nonprofits have never lost their status because of it.

I know of one church that has a liquor license so they can serve alcohol during weddings/parties/etc. in the adjacent reception hall.

Remember that it's not illegal for a non-profit to make money, it's illegal for a non-profit to disburse the money they make  as profits. For example, many churches sell books and coffee for the explicit purpose of generating revenue, but that revenue is reinvested back into the church, not paid out to anyone as profit. Hence, they're a non-profit.
 
2014-01-23 10:17:39 AM

ScaryBottles: Nabb1: Lord_Baull: If the IRS investigates, it'll be a scandalf for Obama targeting Right Wing churches.

There are plenty of churches in New Orleans he could target to quiet that noise. Their pastors hand out fliers with candidate endorsements all the time.

[brunoberry.files.wordpress.com image 500x271]


I think I'd give him the benefit of the doubt on that one.  Aside from living there and likely having observed it, Nabb1's a straight dealer.
 
2014-01-23 10:19:00 AM

ScaryBottles: Nabb1: Lord_Baull: If the IRS investigates, it'll be a scandalf for Obama targeting Right Wing churches.

There are plenty of churches in New Orleans he could target to quiet that noise. Their pastors hand out fliers with candidate endorsements all the time.

[brunoberry.files.wordpress.com image 500x271]


Sorry, I don't save them when they stick them in my mailbox around election time. I usually throw them away. What they usually do is, individual pastors from very large, influential churches will form little committees, and then the committees (wink, wink) will actually do the endorsement. But, there are always pictures of the pastors, in their pastoral clothes, smiling.

Lord_Baull: Nabb1: Lord_Baull: If the IRS investigates, it'll be a scandalf for Obama targeting Right Wing churches.

There are plenty of churches in New Orleans he could target to quiet that noise. Their pastors hand out fliers with candidate endorsements all the time.


F'in do it, IRS!


Totally agree. Churches should not engage in straight up candidate endorsement.
 
2014-01-23 10:19:04 AM

HMS_Blinkin: Even if they DID extend the invitation to Democrats, still not ok.  Churches shouldn't be involved in the political process, PERIOD.  It comes with the whole "tax exempt" territory.  Giving "equal time" doesn't mitigate that---it's still political involvement.


The problem is the church has been doing this forever and ex post facto laws.  The only solution to that problem is on the tax exempt side.
 
2014-01-23 10:19:18 AM

Fubini: ScaryBottles: Really? Please explain....... In detail.

Uh, you're the one claiming that this would be a violation of the law. The only way I can prove it's not against the law is by exhaustively examining all laws, and *not* finding one that prohibits the activity.

I can tell you that I've seen this happen all the time, and as far as I know those nonprofits have never lost their status because of it.

I know of one church that has a liquor license so they can serve alcohol during weddings/parties/etc. in the adjacent reception hall.

Remember that it's not illegal for a non-profit to make money, it's illegal for a non-profit to disburse the money they make  as profits. For example, many churches sell books and coffee for the explicit purpose of generating revenue, but that revenue is reinvested back into the church, not paid out to anyone as profit. Hence, they're a non-profit.


BUT...do we know that church exemptions are derived from their non-profit status or from some other legal provision?  I don't know the answer to that.
 
2014-01-23 10:19:57 AM

ScaryBottles: No need this church didn't rent shiat to this guy they hosted a fundraiser its not the same thing as renting.


They didn't rent or host anything. The fundraiser didn't take place at the church. What TFA is complaining about is that there was an  advertisement for a fundraiser in the church bulletin.

The bulletin called it a luncheon, but apparently it was a fundraiser with a fixed cost per plate.

Anyway, it doesn't look like political activity to me.
 
2014-01-23 10:20:56 AM

ScaryBottles: Nabb1: ScaryBottles: machoprogrammer: If the church itself does fundraising, they should lose their tax-free status.

If the church just rents out their space to a fundraiser, they should not.

Since they did the former and not the latter, they should lose their tax-free status

Umh not to nit pick but both are perfectly legitimate legal grounds for losing tax status. Neither is okay according to the law. Don't like it? Well I hear its real nice in Tehran this time of year.

Interesting. Show your work. I mean, the specific laws underlying your conclusions of law that simply renting out space to someone else for a fundraiser is the basis for losing tax exempt status. I'm not saying you are wrong, but I am interested in you fleshing that out some.

No need this church didn't rent shiat to this guy they hosted a fundraiser its not the same thing as renting.

host1
hōst/
verb
1.
act as host at (an event) or for (a television or radio program).

rent1
rent/
noun
1.
a tenant's regular payment to a landlord for the use of property or land.


I understand that. You said both were grounds for losing one's tax exempt status. I asked about the latter - renting out - as opposed to the former. I asked for specific provisions of law. You responded with a sarcastic citation to dictionary definitions. If you simply answer, "I really don't know the ins and outs of the tax code that well and was merely speculating," I am okay with that.
 
2014-01-23 10:21:19 AM

Fubini: ScaryBottles: No need this church didn't rent shiat to this guy they hosted a fundraiser its not the same thing as renting.

They didn't rent or host anything. The fundraiser didn't take place at the church. What TFA is complaining about is that there was an  advertisement for a fundraiser in the church bulletin.

The bulletin called it a luncheon, but apparently it was a fundraiser with a fixed cost per plate.

Anyway, it doesn't look like political activity to me.


A political fundraiser doesn't look like political activity?
 
2014-01-23 10:22:36 AM

Fubini: ScaryBottles: Really? Please explain....... In detail.

Uh, you're the one claiming that this would be a violation of the law. The only way I can prove it's not against the law is by exhaustively examining all laws, and *not* finding one that prohibits the activity.

I can tell you that I've seen this happen all the time, and as far as I know those nonprofits have never lost their status because of it.

I know of one church that has a liquor license so they can serve alcohol during weddings/parties/etc. in the adjacent reception hall.

Remember that it's not illegal for a non-profit to make money, it's illegal for a non-profit to disburse the money they make  as profits. For example, many churches sell books and coffee for the explicit purpose of generating revenue, but that revenue is reinvested back into the church, not paid out to anyone as profit. Hence, they're a non-profit.


The number of false equivalencies in this post is impressive. Churches are not the same as non-profits. Also the constitution does not explicitly forbid churches from selling booze. Got any other strawmen you want to humiliate yourself with?
 
2014-01-23 10:23:06 AM

Diogenes: Fubini: ScaryBottles: Really? Please explain....... In detail.

Uh, you're the one claiming that this would be a violation of the law. The only way I can prove it's not against the law is by exhaustively examining all laws, and *not* finding one that prohibits the activity.

I can tell you that I've seen this happen all the time, and as far as I know those nonprofits have never lost their status because of it.

I know of one church that has a liquor license so they can serve alcohol during weddings/parties/etc. in the adjacent reception hall.

Remember that it's not illegal for a non-profit to make money, it's illegal for a non-profit to disburse the money they make  as profits. For example, many churches sell books and coffee for the explicit purpose of generating revenue, but that revenue is reinvested back into the church, not paid out to anyone as profit. Hence, they're a non-profit.

BUT...do we know that church exemptions are derived from their non-profit status or from some other legal provision?  I don't know the answer to that.


A CPA probably would. Forensic accounting is what they use to investigate shenanigans with non-profits or money laundering. I've hired some as experts in cases before. It's actually very interesting stuff.
 
2014-01-23 10:26:08 AM

Nabb1: ScaryBottles: Nabb1: ScaryBottles: machoprogrammer: If the church itself does fundraising, they should lose their tax-free status.

If the church just rents out their space to a fundraiser, they should not.

Since they did the former and not the latter, they should lose their tax-free status

Umh not to nit pick but both are perfectly legitimate legal grounds for losing tax status. Neither is okay according to the law. Don't like it? Well I hear its real nice in Tehran this time of year.

Interesting. Show your work. I mean, the specific laws underlying your conclusions of law that simply renting out space to someone else for a fundraiser is the basis for losing tax exempt status. I'm not saying you are wrong, but I am interested in you fleshing that out some.

No need this church didn't rent shiat to this guy they hosted a fundraiser its not the same thing as renting.

host1
hōst/
verb
1.
act as host at (an event) or for (a television or radio program).

rent1
rent/
noun
1.
a tenant's regular payment to a landlord for the use of property or land.

I understand that. You said both were grounds for losing one's tax exempt status. I asked about the latter - renting out - as opposed to the former. I asked for specific provisions of law. You responded with a sarcastic citation to dictionary definitions. If you simply answer, "I really don't know the ins and outs of the tax code that well and was merely speculating," I am okay with that.


I'm still waiting to hear about all these churches in New Orleans that hand political propaganda on the streets you mentioned.
 
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