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(SacBee)   2012: Massachusetts passes "right to repair" forcing automakers to release auto info to all mechanics. 2014: Automakers say "fark it" and makes RtR nationwide in the easiest domino effect imaginable   (sacbee.com) divider line 101
    More: Cool, Massachusetts, car companies, aga, repairs, .info  
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12354 clicks; posted to Main » on 22 Jan 2014 at 4:43 PM (38 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-01-22 04:46:26 PM  
Next: computer manufacturers.
 
2014-01-22 04:46:59 PM  
Hooray!  This is good news for the mechanically inclined amongst us....I think.
 
2014-01-22 04:47:50 PM  
So you mean I no longer have to look up badly written third-hand guides authored by "some dude on the internet" on how to replace Prius headlights without removing the entire front bumper?

/Only partially exaggerating
//People with small hands can remove an air intake and get at the thing by feel
 
2014-01-22 04:48:26 PM  
This is great. Why hasn't it always been like this?
 
2014-01-22 04:48:36 PM  
Thank G-d! The worst thing you can hear is "You need to bring it back to the dealer." for some basic, but overpriced exclusive fix.
 
2014-01-22 04:48:51 PM  
Is it also available to non mechanics who own a wrench?

/drtfa
 
2014-01-22 04:49:04 PM  
I saw the phrase "post-warranty" and wonder if that means we have to wait for the original manufacturer's warranty to expire before we get a publicly available service manual?
 
2014-01-22 04:50:36 PM  
FTA: "This agreement illustrates what can happen when organizations focus on putting customers and consumers first,"

More importantly, the industry feared dealing with 50 different States interpretations of the Right to Repair.
 
2014-01-22 04:51:28 PM  
And they'll still charge you more for working on your import/Benz/BMW.
 
2014-01-22 04:52:22 PM  

Priest_to_the_Exanimate: Next: computer manufacturers.


I.....don't really know how to feel about that.
 
ZAZ [TotalFark]
2014-01-22 04:53:00 PM  
Right to repair is a positive sounding name. Voters are willing to believe car makers are evil. That is why Massachusetts voters approved "right to repair" in 2012. The sides had reached a compromise and stated the initiative was not needed. The legislature enacted their compromise. Voters said they wanted more than the compromise gave. Not that they knew the technical differences between compromise and original proposal. They wanted more as a matter of principle.

Car makers see a big risk in fighting the fight in other states. They might end up having to reveal even more information in one state (which means it leaks out to all states).

Despite right to repair, my mechanic still can't fix computer problems.
 
2014-01-22 04:54:10 PM  

InterruptingQuirk: I saw the phrase "post-warranty" and wonder if that means we have to wait for the original manufacturer's warranty to expire before we get a publicly available service manual?


Probably, realize this was a highly negotiated document between the Auto industry who didn't want to publish their information and State governments who were threatening to pass laws. Honestly it seems a fair compromise and could have the unintended effect of lengthening the average warranty if there is some secret info they don't want leaked for 5 or 6 years.
 
2014-01-22 04:57:53 PM  

MindStalker: InterruptingQuirk: I saw the phrase "post-warranty" and wonder if that means we have to wait for the original manufacturer's warranty to expire before we get a publicly available service manual?

Probably, realize this was a highly negotiated document between the Auto industry who didn't want to publish their information and State governments who were threatening to pass laws. Honestly it seems a fair compromise and could have the unintended effect of lengthening the average warranty if there is some secret info they don't want leaked for 5 or 6 years.


Wait, you mean they couldn't intentionally design my car to fall apart in less than three years?  That's horrible.
 
2014-01-22 04:58:05 PM  

MindStalker: InterruptingQuirk: I saw the phrase "post-warranty" and wonder if that means we have to wait for the original manufacturer's warranty to expire before we get a publicly available service manual?

Probably, realize this was a highly negotiated document between the Auto industry who didn't want to publish their information and State governments who were threatening to pass laws. Honestly it seems a fair compromise and could have the unintended effect of lengthening the average warranty if there is some secret info they don't want leaked for 5 or 6 years.


I had to subscribe to AllDataDIY in order to get service info on my car as there is only a UK version out in the sub standard Haynes publication.
 
2014-01-22 04:58:13 PM  
You're fraking welcome.

Now go frak yourself.
 
2014-01-22 05:00:55 PM  
I think it's great

At moment I have to pay an authorised dealer to tell me what the "Check Engine" light means (because he has to buy the diagnostic software from the manufacturer). He plugs in computer and it spits out a code.

But there is no reason why, instead of the Check Engine message, the error code could be displayed. Then that code could be matched on an online database to the part that is malfunctioning.

The present system is a straightforward abuse and I'm rapt that it is finally being challenged.
 
2014-01-22 05:01:54 PM  
Domino Effect Imagine

i.imgur.com
 
2014-01-22 05:02:24 PM  
is that really "the easist domino effect imagine"?
 
2014-01-22 05:03:15 PM  

MindStalker: InterruptingQuirk: I saw the phrase "post-warranty" and wonder if that means we have to wait for the original manufacturer's warranty to expire before we get a publicly available service manual?

Probably, realize this was a highly negotiated document between the Auto industry who didn't want to publish their information and State governments who were threatening to pass laws. Honestly it seems a fair compromise and could have the unintended effect of lengthening the average warranty if there is some secret info they don't want leaked for 5 or 6 years.


So long as the consumer can get that stuff fixed by the dealer gratis during that time, (given that they have a warranty and all) it would indeed be a fair compromise.

On the other hand though, there are certain things that the end user should always be able to handle themselves.  The example I posted earlier with the Prius headlights is one of an alarming number of changes that auto manufacturers seem to be making in terms of the ability for consumers to maintain their own vehicles.  I honestly think that as a safety concern certain basic maintenance operations should be required by law to be simple operations that require no special tools or enhanced dexterity.  Lights, fluids, certain basic components like air filters, so on.  I'm just imagining this nightmare situation where in order to replace the oil in Toyota's latest model whatever you have to take off the air intake manifold.
 
2014-01-22 05:04:19 PM  

ZAZ: Right to repair is a positive sounding name. Voters are willing to believe car makers are evil. That is why Massachusetts voters approved "right to repair" in 2012. The sides had reached a compromise and stated the initiative was not needed. The legislature enacted their compromise. Voters said they wanted more than the compromise gave. Not that they knew the technical differences between compromise and original proposal. They wanted more as a matter of principle.


The compromise only came AFTER the question was added to the ballot, so voters were still presented the question and encouraged to not answer it.  Of course a large number didn't know about the agreement, and others still voted on it, but it was sort of an accident
 
2014-01-22 05:04:59 PM  
This national agreement ensures the Alliance, Global, AAIA, and CARE will stand down in their fight on "Right to Repair" and work collectively to actively oppose individual state legislation while our respective groups work to implement this MOU.  In the meantime, the parties agree that further state legislation is not needed and could serve to weaken the effectiveness and clarity of the MOU.

i.imgur.com


Something smells fishy here.
 
2014-01-22 05:08:17 PM  
Huh, it's almost as if consumer focused regulations on industry produce a better outcome for consumers.

Something about this state...
img.fark.net

//Masshole
//Signed the petition and voted for it.
 
2014-01-22 05:09:16 PM  

mjjt: I think it's great

At moment I have to pay an authorised dealer to tell me what the "Check Engine" light means (because he has to buy the diagnostic software from the manufacturer). He plugs in computer and it spits out a code.

But there is no reason why, instead of the Check Engine message, the error code could be displayed. Then that code could be matched on an online database to the part that is malfunctioning.

The present system is a straightforward abuse and I'm rapt that it is finally being challenged.


Yeah, I had to look it up on the Internet and then perform some magic trick with the ignition switch without turning my Jeep actually on to get the super-secret code number. Then, the dealer, after checking it out said it was probably "just a glitch or something."
 
2014-01-22 05:10:06 PM  

mjjt: I think it's great

At moment I have to pay an authorised dealer to tell me what the "Check Engine" light means (because he has to buy the diagnostic software from the manufacturer). He plugs in computer and it spits out a code.

But there is no reason why, instead of the Check Engine message, the error code could be displayed. Then that code could be matched on an online database to the part that is malfunctioning.

The present system is a straightforward abuse and I'm rapt that it is finally being challenged.


Worse yet, once the stupid "Check Wallet" light comes on for something trivial, like say a $500 O2 sensor on a catalytic converter (that has no effect on how the car runs) that I'll never replace, I'm blind to any NEW events that occur.

Same with the wireless tire pressure sensors. One goes bad, and you'll never know anything about the rest of them.
 
2014-01-22 05:10:50 PM  

mjjt: I think it's great

At moment I have to pay an authorised dealer to tell me what the "Check Engine" light means (because he has to buy the diagnostic software from the manufacturer). He plugs in computer and it spits out a code.

But there is no reason why, instead of the Check Engine message, the error code could be displayed. Then that code could be matched on an online database to the part that is malfunctioning.

The present system is a straightforward abuse and I'm rapt that it is finally being challenged.


If i read this correctly, there will now be a standardized service. You pay for complete access to a full network of information. From the link below, they don't specify any new universal scan tools.

You will still need to be competent to repair more complex problems. Diagnostic codes rarely state to replace a part right away. Got a CAN communication issue, body network code, etc? Good luck with a generic scan tool and this information.


http://massrighttorepair.com/info-for-repairers/

Link i found concerning the new changes
 
2014-01-22 05:10:53 PM  
Ok well that's kinda cool to be sure, but like most things has more to it than a flat '"win" for the "little guy."

"stand down in their fight on "Right to Repair" and work collectively to actively oppose individual state legislation while our respective groups work to implement this MOU"

So what that says is:
A: we can't stop a law already going into effect anyway
B: a Memorandum of Understanding  is not exactly a law or something that explicitly gets enforced by independent parties, or even something that all effected by had any input to directly
C: better to adopt our own "reasonable" standards(hello self regulating industry G,PG,PG-13, etc.) now than to let states think about this subject too much directly.
D: focus our don't do that, efforts on any new local legislation in this topic zone that might hit the books and be less in our favor.

As with the article before about the court ruling in favor of monsanto, because they basically had a  their own MOU, that the courts felt were good enough so why interfere.
Maybe the MOU here is ok for now, but may not be ok for later developments.
but once it's in place it's less likely the courts/legislators will focus in on you., as being totally "off leash" as one might say.

With monsanto it was 1% of your crops. maybe that's a reasonable amount to get their by accident at this time.
Will it still be reasonable in a future where the % of monsanto's seed DNA on the wind has increased?

Same questions here.
 
2014-01-22 05:13:57 PM  

theBigBigEye: Priest_to_the_Exanimate: Next: computer manufacturers.

I.....don't really know how to feel about that.


My MSI GT70 needs its DC jack replaced. I'd gladly pay $85 to someone who does this frequently, after seeing it on YouTube.
 
2014-01-22 05:18:29 PM  

ZAZ: Right to repair is a positive sounding name. Voters are willing to believe car makers are evil. That is why Massachusetts voters approved "right to repair" in 2012. The sides had reached a compromise and stated the initiative was not needed. The legislature enacted their compromise. Voters said they wanted more than the compromise gave. Not that they knew the technical differences between compromise and original proposal. They wanted more as a matter of principle.

Car makers see a big risk in fighting the fight in other states. They might end up having to reveal even more information in one state (which means it leaks out to all states).

Despite right to repair, my mechanic still can't fix computer problems.


As a Massachusetts voter, I came to say "you're welcome, citizens.  Now you won't have to pay $84 to have your dealer shut off your check engine light because you needed an oil change and did it in your own damn driveway"
But ZAZ does bring  up a pretty good point.  At least for the current generation of entrenched mechanics, you can give them all the rights they want.  They won't be able to fix the more advanced features.  But you can still count on them to replace your tire filters or your seat cushion fluid.

/I jest, my point in agreeing with ZAZ is that there will be some things best left to those bloodsucking $160/hr overhead dealerships.
 
2014-01-22 05:20:27 PM  

SquishyLizard: Huh, it's almost as if consumer focused regulations on industry produce a better outcome for consumers.

Something about this state...
[img.fark.net image 291x368]

//Masshole
//Signed the petition and voted for it.


Indeed. Though I don't think she had a direct effect on the ballot question

/subby
//yes, I know I forgot the "d" in "imagined"
///voted for all 3 ballot questions in 2014
 
2014-01-22 05:24:32 PM  

FTGodWin: mjjt: I think it's great

At moment I have to pay an authorised dealer to tell me what the "Check Engine" light means (because he has to buy the diagnostic software from the manufacturer). He plugs in computer and it spits out a code.

But there is no reason why, instead of the Check Engine message, the error code could be displayed. Then that code could be matched on an online database to the part that is malfunctioning.

The present system is a straightforward abuse and I'm rapt that it is finally being challenged.

Worse yet, once the stupid "Check Wallet" light comes on for something trivial, like say a $500 O2 sensor on a catalytic converter (that has no effect on how the car runs) that I'll never replace, I'm blind to any NEW events that occur.

Same with the wireless tire pressure sensors. One goes bad, and you'll never know anything about the rest of them.


Get yourself a scanner (or software and OBD2 connector for your laptop) for less than $150.
Or bring your car to an auto parts store, they'll hook up the scanner and look up the code.
O2 sensor and wrench; about $80 IIRC


images.gasbuddy.com www.jhmbuttco.com
 
2014-01-22 05:28:16 PM  
Here in Mass we've done a lot of things wrong over the years (which other Farkers will, I'm sure, gleefully point out), but I'm pretty proud of this particular domino effect.

/also the one about marriage equality (now covering 38% of the US population).
 
2014-01-22 05:28:35 PM  

yukichigai: So you mean I no longer have to look up badly written third-hand guides authored by "some dude on the internet" on how to replace Prius headlights without removing the entire front bumper?

/Only partially exaggerating
//People with small hands can remove an air intake and get at the thing by feel


I did that operation two weeks ago.  My hands are...not small.  I called my wife to help, but her hands were also too big.  My daughter was available...still too big.  Eventually I managed to do it myself but only after making the necessary sacrifice to the auto repair gods.

/Bled a little, then got it done.
//Why is that hose routed right there?  It's the only problem!
 
2014-01-22 05:29:19 PM  

mjjt: I think it's great

At moment I have to pay an authorised dealer to tell me what the "Check Engine" light means (because he has to buy the diagnostic software from the manufacturer). He plugs in computer and it spits out a code.

But there is no reason why, instead of the Check Engine message, the error code could be displayed. Then that code could be matched on an online database to the part that is malfunctioning.

The present system is a straightforward abuse and I'm rapt that it is finally being challenged.


Actually you can get an obdII reader off amazon for the repair codes, and look them up.  It's not that hard.  there are even bluetooth versions that let you hook them up to your smart phone.
 
2014-01-22 05:34:32 PM  
I would really like to see more about this "MOU" and the agreement.

As someone who regularly maintains their own vehicle (at least up to the point I have the tools and time for) I fully support the Mass law. Simple shade tree jobs like replacing a sensor or replacing brakes shouldn't be proprietary. I can buy half a dozen different sensors for what a dealer charges just to look at the darn thing.

A generic ODB dongle and some open-source software should be available to everyone to diagnose and repair their own vehicle.

While I'm complaining, I'd like to see us return to standardized car radios. Yes, your navigation/voice/holoprojector is cool today, but that albatross is not going to work with next year's iPhone 8 and it's new connector or wireless greentooth 4. I'd like to not have to buy a new car for my fancy "radio" to sync with my smartphone, but the easily swappable DIN radio in an '87 Honda means it's a handful of clips and a wiring adapter from working.
 
2014-01-22 05:34:48 PM  

yukichigai: I'm just imagining this nightmare situation where in order to replace the oil in Toyota's latest model whatever you have to take off the air intake manifold.


Chevrolet already did it. My dad owned a first generation Cobalt SS Supercharged, and boy was he pissed when he found out you had to remove the supercharger to change the oil...
 
2014-01-22 05:39:19 PM  
If you have a VW built car you can always get one of these

http://www.ross-tech.com/vag-com/hex-usb+can.html

Beyond just scanning for and reading codes you can even do some basic reprogramming of the ECU with the accompanying software, definitely worth it if you own a VW.
 
2014-01-22 05:39:56 PM  

cgraves67: This is great. Why hasn't it always been like this?


Hell, Volkswagen used to boast that their cars could be repaired and serviced by any local mechanic, or by the owners themselves.  There were lots of third party guides too, early forerunners of the "Dummies" books.
 
2014-01-22 05:40:11 PM  

FTGodWin: mjjt: I think it's great

At moment I have to pay an authorised dealer to tell me what the "Check Engine" light means (because he has to buy the diagnostic software from the manufacturer). He plugs in computer and it spits out a code.

But there is no reason why, instead of the Check Engine message, the error code could be displayed. Then that code could be matched on an online database to the part that is malfunctioning.

The present system is a straightforward abuse and I'm rapt that it is finally being challenged.

Worse yet, once the stupid "Check Wallet" light comes on for something trivial, like say a $500 O2 sensor on a catalytic converter (that has no effect on how the car runs) that I'll never replace, I'm blind to any NEW events that occur.

Same with the wireless tire pressure sensors. One goes bad, and you'll never know anything about the rest of them.


Easy fix!  Just need an inch of electrical tape, that's all.
 
2014-01-22 05:42:43 PM  
Who here can rember how to adjust the side veiw miror on a '72 Celica?
Step one.  Roll down the window using that handle thingy that goes round and round.
Step two.  Grasp the driver side  mirror and move it around.
Step three.  none.  There is no passenger side mirror.
 
2014-01-22 05:43:23 PM  
Read TFA, and read the comments.  I'm still confused as to what exactly this agreements means, or how it affects my future maintenance needs on my vehicle.

/halp?
 
2014-01-22 05:43:38 PM  

Odd Bird: Get yourself a scanner (or software and OBD2 connector for your laptop) for less than $150.


If you have a smartphone, don't bother with a dedicated tool.  BlueTooth adapters for ODBII are about $10, and the free Torque Android app can read and reset codes.
 
2014-01-22 05:44:09 PM  

Odd Bird: FTGodWin: mjjt: I think it's great

At moment I have to pay an authorised dealer to tell me what the "Check Engine" light means (because he has to buy the diagnostic software from the manufacturer). He plugs in computer and it spits out a code.

But there is no reason why, instead of the Check Engine message, the error code could be displayed. Then that code could be matched on an online database to the part that is malfunctioning.

The present system is a straightforward abuse and I'm rapt that it is finally being challenged.

Worse yet, once the stupid "Check Wallet" light comes on for something trivial, like say a $500 O2 sensor on a catalytic converter (that has no effect on how the car runs) that I'll never replace, I'm blind to any NEW events that occur.

Same with the wireless tire pressure sensors. One goes bad, and you'll never know anything about the rest of them.

Get yourself a scanner (or software and OBD2 connector for your laptop) for less than $150.
Or bring your car to an auto parts store, they'll hook up the scanner and look up the code.
O2 sensor and wrench; about $80 IIRC


[images.gasbuddy.com image 280x280] [www.jhmbuttco.com image 221x250]


People complain about the price of owning a BMW and I suspect this is the reason. I recently brought one and I have had a few random small "check wallet" issues but I am mechanically inclined enough to do an internet search and diagnose the problem myself. It turns out these things that would be $500-1K at the dealership are more like $50-$150 for you to just fix yourself, plus maybe an hour or two of your time. My time is money but it ain't worth $400 / hour.
 
2014-01-22 05:48:10 PM  

mjjt: I think it's great

At moment I have to pay an authorised dealer to tell me what the "Check Engine" light means (because he has to buy the diagnostic software from the manufacturer). He plugs in computer and it spits out a code.

But there is no reason why, instead of the Check Engine message, the error code could be displayed. Then that code could be matched on an online database to the part that is malfunctioning.

The present system is a straightforward abuse and I'm rapt that it is finally being challenged.


20$ or so will get you a Bluetooth dongle you can plug into your car's port. Then, pairef with your smartphone, you can get some diagnostics done at home. Its paid for itself a few times over.
 
2014-01-22 05:49:51 PM  

Odd Bird: FTGodWin: mjjt: I think it's great

At moment I have to pay an authorised dealer to tell me what the "Check Engine" light means (because he has to buy the diagnostic software from the manufacturer). He plugs in computer and it spits out a code.

But there is no reason why, instead of the Check Engine message, the error code could be displayed. Then that code could be matched on an online database to the part that is malfunctioning.

The present system is a straightforward abuse and I'm rapt that it is finally being challenged.

Worse yet, once the stupid "Check Wallet" light comes on for something trivial, like say a $500 O2 sensor on a catalytic converter (that has no effect on how the car runs) that I'll never replace, I'm blind to any NEW events that occur.

Same with the wireless tire pressure sensors. One goes bad, and you'll never know anything about the rest of them.

Get yourself a scanner (or software and OBD2 connector for your laptop) for less than $150.
Or bring your car to an auto parts store, they'll hook up the scanner and look up the code.
O2 sensor and wrench; about $80 IIRC


 


On most ODB-II's you can short two pins on the connector and it will blink out the code on the check-engine light and after the 3rd or 5th repetition it clears the codes.. I've done that a few times in the field.

/ has a nice scanner now that has paid for itself many times over.
 
2014-01-22 05:51:10 PM  

fastbow: yukichigai: I'm just imagining this nightmare situation where in order to replace the oil in Toyota's latest model whatever you have to take off the air intake manifold.

Chevrolet already did it. My dad owned a first generation Cobalt SS Supercharged, and boy was he pissed when he found out you had to remove the supercharger to change the oil...


Now, you're not being entirely truthful with that statement.

Changing the engine oil is no different from any other vehicle with the exception that it uses a cartridge filter instead of a sealed spin-off.

Changing the oil in the Eaton supercharger itself does require supercharger removal to do it properly.  But since it's considered a sealed unit with no service interval... technically he shouldn't be messing with it.
 
2014-01-22 05:55:30 PM  
Fark yeah, biatches, Massachusetts reprazent!
 
2014-01-22 05:57:37 PM  

Explodo: Hooray!  This is good news for the mechanically inclined amongst us....I think.


I was kind of hoping to see links to such repair information in the article.
It sucks having to run to the library whenever I need some info.
Too poor to subscribe to alldata.
 
2014-01-22 05:58:15 PM  

moike: fastbow: yukichigai: I'm just imagining this nightmare situation where in order to replace the oil in Toyota's latest model whatever you have to take off the air intake manifold.

Chevrolet already did it. My dad owned a first generation Cobalt SS Supercharged, and boy was he pissed when he found out you had to remove the supercharger to change the oil...

Now, you're not being entirely truthful with that statement.

Changing the engine oil is no different from any other vehicle with the exception that it uses a cartridge filter instead of a sealed spin-off.

Changing the oil in the Eaton supercharger itself does require supercharger removal to do it properly.  But since it's considered a sealed unit with no service interval... technically he shouldn't be messing with it.


Wasn't my car. All I know is what I was told.
 
2014-01-22 06:06:03 PM  

theBigBigEye: Priest_to_the_Exanimate: Next: computer manufacturers.

I.....don't really know how to feel about that.


OK, how would you feel about all Software sold being open source?
 
2014-01-22 06:07:19 PM  

cgraves67: This is great. Why hasn't it always been like this?


So the dealer mechanics can buttfark your checkbook over a simple procedure.
 
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