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(Wikipedia)   Happy Birthday, Roe v. Wade. Okay, let me rephrase that. Today marks the 41st anniversary of the landmark Roe v. Wade decision   (en.wikipedia.org ) divider line
    More: Interesting, Happy Birthday, U.S. Supreme Court, United States, adjudications, strict scrutiny, maternal health, Fourteenth Amendment, abortion law  
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1273 clicks; posted to Main » on 22 Jan 2014 at 5:35 PM (2 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-01-22 07:55:22 PM  

IM4Liberty: 55 million people lost to a socialist, eugenics experiment (killed by their mothers in many cases, no less). Social Security and other Federal entitlement programs are going backrupt because, in part, these folks aren't available to contribute to these political slush funds. Coincidence? I think it's possible.

This might be an anniversary of horror; it's certainly not a birthday to celebrate.


That number could have been higher without Roe V. Wade, because their mothers might have sought back-alley abortions that killed them as well.  The impact on entitlements is probably positive because those babies would have been born disproportionately to poor, less educated women, and statistically likely to become "takers" instead of "makers", in the parlance of the Romney campaign.
 
2014-01-22 07:59:35 PM  

OooShiny: genner: Either it's murder or it's not. Choice shouldn't be the issue.

Let's test pro-life 'morals.'  If abortion is murder, then quit this nickel-and-dime chipping away at legal abortion like a bunch of Christian pussies and legislate it as murder already.  Next, come arrest ALL of us who've had one.  Arrest ALL the millions of girls, women, mothers, daughters, sisters and wives; Christians and non, for MURDER.

Let's just see just how fast abortion is no longer 'murder'.


It is interesting that more people who make that claim haven't introduced legislation to have abortion treated as homicide.  Instead, just an ever increasing layer of inconveniences, indignities, and artificial expenses.
It is almost as if they wished to make it difficult for the poor and powerless to get abortions, but keep the option open for those who posess wealth.
 
2014-01-22 07:59:37 PM  

jso2897: Al!: As a man who recently conceived a child intentionally with a woman who wanted to have my baby, who then dumped me and aborted my child: Fark you RvW, and Fark everyone who says a man should have no say in the matter.

Keep your dick in your pants in the presence of untrustworthy women in future. You just dodged a 16" artillary shell, and you should be thanking Jesus every day.


Word. Substitute "Lucky Stars" for Jesus and we are good.
 
2014-01-22 07:59:54 PM  

Arkanaut: IIRC Mary Roe actually did give birth to the baby in question, and I think gave the kid up for adoption, so headline is more apt than subby gave it credit for.


She's also pro-life and wants abortion outlawed.

From wikipedia:

Norma McCorvey became a member of the pro-life movement in 1995; she now supports making abortion illegal. In 1998, she testified to Congress:

"It was my pseudonym, Jane Roe, which had been used to create the "right" to abortion out of legal thin air. But Sarah Weddington and Linda Coffee never told me that what I was signing would allow women to come up to me 15, 20 years later and say, "Thank you for allowing me to have my five or six abortions. Without you, it wouldn't have been possible." Sarah never mentioned women using abortions as a form of birth control. We talked about truly desperate and needy women, not women already wearing maternity clothes. "
 
2014-01-22 08:00:22 PM  

jso2897: Phinn: I'd be willing to throw in a free car to any woman who's getting an abortion and also agrees to a tubal ligation.

Every woman should have the right to have sex without fear of pregnancy, after all. And have a car of her own.

I'm conflicted between the crass cynicism of your proposal and the considerable social benefits it would confer.
Some pepole just talk about improving the gene pool.
You, sir, have a plan!


Excuse me, but why are we waiting until the woman is pregnant before offering her presents in exchange for sterilization?  That needs to be available to ANY woman -and man, also - starting at the age of consent.  Heck, give a childless person a bonus of some sort if they are child free and opt for sterilization.  Double food stamps if you're child free and sterilized!
 
2014-01-22 08:01:09 PM  

jso2897: OooShiny: genner: Either it's murder or it's not. Choice shouldn't be the issue.

Let's test pro-life 'morals.'  If abortion is murder, then quit this nickel-and-dime chipping away at legal abortion like a bunch of Christian pussies and legislate it as murder already.  Next, come arrest ALL of us who've had one.  Arrest ALL the millions of girls, women, mothers, daughters, sisters and wives; Christians and non, for MURDER.

Let's just see just how fast abortion is no longer 'murder'.

It is interesting that more people who make that claim haven't introduced legislation to have abortion treated as homicide.  Instead, just an ever increasing layer of inconveniences, indignities, and artificial expenses.
It is almost as if they wished to make it difficult for the poor and powerless to get abortions, but keep the option open for those who posess wealth.


Just like gun control.
 
2014-01-22 08:01:24 PM  

Endive Wombat: I read something a while back discussing how the democratic party/liberals have effectively eliminated 35-50+ million people from their voting base because of abortion.  The argument that was being made/based on is the idea that liberals have a tendency to have abortions more than conservatives...so aborting their kids = elimination of their voter base.

Not sure how accurate this speculation is, but interesting to think about nonetheless.


Interesting to think about, but isn't it fairly common for children to often adopt the opposite political viewpoint from their parents?
 
2014-01-22 08:01:25 PM  

GlamrLama: jso2897: Al!: As a man who recently conceived a child intentionally with a woman who wanted to have my baby, who then dumped me and aborted my child: Fark you RvW, and Fark everyone who says a man should have no say in the matter.

Keep your dick in your pants in the presence of untrustworthy women in future. You just dodged a 16" artillary shell, and you should be thanking Jesus every day.

Word. Substitute "Lucky Stars" for Jesus and we are good.


When I emphasized the point later in the thread, I was careful to include a few different faiths. I'm all about that shiat.
 
2014-01-22 08:02:25 PM  

InterruptingQuirk: OooShiny: genner: Either it's murder or it's not. Choice shouldn't be the issue.

Let's test pro-life 'morals.'  If abortion is murder, then quit this nickel-and-dime chipping away at legal abortion like a bunch of Christian pussies and legislate it as murder already.  Next, come arrest ALL of us who've had one.  Arrest ALL the millions of girls, women, mothers, daughters, sisters and wives; Christians and non, for MURDER.

Let's just see just how fast abortion is no longer 'murder'.

There are other people who have different opinions on the matter who wont pass said legislation in the Congress. Your test is impossible to conduct.


Then why even bothering having the debate on whether or not to legally define abortion as murder?
 
2014-01-22 08:03:30 PM  

the_vegetarian_cannibal: InterruptingQuirk: OooShiny: genner: Either it's murder or it's not. Choice shouldn't be the issue.

Let's test pro-life 'morals.'  If abortion is murder, then quit this nickel-and-dime chipping away at legal abortion like a bunch of Christian pussies and legislate it as murder already.  Next, come arrest ALL of us who've had one.  Arrest ALL the millions of girls, women, mothers, daughters, sisters and wives; Christians and non, for MURDER.

Let's just see just how fast abortion is no longer 'murder'.

There are other people who have different opinions on the matter who wont pass said legislation in the Congress. Your test is impossible to conduct.

Then why even bothering having the debate on whether or not to legally define abortion as murder?


I'm not having it. I was just addressing the ridiculous hypothetical they posited.
 
2014-01-22 08:04:26 PM  

DubtodaIll: Endive Wombat: I read something a while back discussing how the democratic party/liberals have effectively eliminated 35-50+ million people from their voting base because of abortion.  The argument that was being made/based on is the idea that liberals have a tendency to have abortions more than conservatives...so aborting their kids = elimination of their voter base.

Not sure how accurate this speculation is, but interesting to think about nonetheless.

Interesting to think about, but isn't it fairly common for children to often adopt the opposite political viewpoint from their parents?



Someone posted a link earlier, something like 70% of children have the same political views as their parents.
 
2014-01-22 08:04:39 PM  

InterruptingQuirk: Well, that's one way to look at it. But any thoughts on the unequal rights that I spoke of?



Parental rights and responsibilities pertain to children. These rules are all about the interests of the child. The child exists, it has needs. The relevant laws should apply equally to parents of both sexes so far as possible.

Abortion rights, from the pro-choice point of view, are essentially about the pregnant person's right to control the pregnancy. As a function of biology rather than law, the pregnant person is always female, so it is nonsensical to talk about men having rights in this area, "unequal" or otherwise. (And from the anti-abortion point of view, the question is moot because the state has control of the pregnancy.)
 
2014-01-22 08:05:15 PM  

Callous: jso2897: OooShiny: genner: Either it's murder or it's not. Choice shouldn't be the issue.

Let's test pro-life 'morals.'  If abortion is murder, then quit this nickel-and-dime chipping away at legal abortion like a bunch of Christian pussies and legislate it as murder already.  Next, come arrest ALL of us who've had one.  Arrest ALL the millions of girls, women, mothers, daughters, sisters and wives; Christians and non, for MURDER.

Let's just see just how fast abortion is no longer 'murder'.

It is interesting that more people who make that claim haven't introduced legislation to have abortion treated as homicide.  Instead, just an ever increasing layer of inconveniences, indignities, and artificial expenses.
It is almost as if they wished to make it difficult for the poor and powerless to get abortions, but keep the option open for those who posess wealth.

Just like gun control.


Back in the Jim Crow days, in some places there were carefully tailored laws designed to accomplish just that, not by collateral effect, but by design.
 
2014-01-22 08:05:27 PM  

InterruptingQuirk: I was just addressing the ridiculous hypothetical they posited.


You forgot to mention "ex post facto."
 
2014-01-22 08:06:19 PM  

GlamrLama: jso2897: Al!: As a man who recently conceived a child intentionally with a woman who wanted to have my baby, who then dumped me and aborted my child: Fark you RvW, and Fark everyone who says a man should have no say in the matter.

Keep your dick in your pants in the presence of untrustworthy women in future. You just dodged a 16" artillary shell, and you should be thanking Jesus every day.

Word. Substitute "Lucky Stars" for Jesus and we are good.


"I don't care about my potential children so nobody else should either."
 
2014-01-22 08:08:09 PM  

jso2897: Ishkur: That Guy Jeff: The conservative dislike of abortion has absolutely nothing to do with women. They believe that abortion is killing a human being. They believe it is morally wrong to kill another human being,

Horseshiat. They have no problems with war adventuring, poverty, starvation, famine, and doing whatever it takes to make socially undesirable people suffer. They certainly don't care about harming others, why would they care about killing others.

Fetuses must be protected at all costs! But 100,000 Iraqi civillians -- fark 'em. They should have gotten out of the way of our missiles faster.

This sis why I stay away from the "motivation" argument. It doesn't matter what their motives are, or whether they are sincere. All that matters is stopping them.


Hmm. Imagine a world where everyone took such a libertarian approach to rights. "We thinks guns are killing people and want to talk about ways to restrict them. TOUGH CRAP, DOESN'T MATTER, MY RIGHT." "We think the chemicals you're adding to this product might kill people. TOUGH CRAP DOESN'T MATTER, MY RIGHT" "We think strip mining on that piece of land might be --- DOESN'T MATTER, MY RIGHT!"

Take a step back for a minute. Let's pretend, just for a moment, that there's a possibility, however slight, that a fetus is a living human being, and that the debate is whether or not one living human being's right to live is more important than another human being's rights over their body. That's probably a debate worth having, and it's probably not one that's easily finalized, and it's probably one that's going to continue to be going on for a long, long time as attitudes, beliefs, and medical science are constantly adjusted. Now, if the debate is "can the evil religious Patriarchy (and the women who also make up this group) control women's bodies or not?", that debate probably wouldn't last very long. It wouldn't be NEARLY as contentious as the whole "killing human beings" debate, no?

I get it. It's important to have absolute control over your own body. I'm right there with you. I'm not only pro-choice, but I'm pro-legalize everything: your body, you can put what you want in it. I'm pro-suicide: your life, you can do what you want with it. I'm pro-gay: your body, you can put who you want in it :D. But I can at least recognize that not everyone that I have to live with in this democracy is quite as... "libertarian" as I am, and that when it comes to what people believe is murdering innocent babies there just might be a need to work with them. And for liberal peeps instead of libertarian, there should DEFINITELY be an acknowledgment that rights are given up all the time in the interest of the health and lives of other people and that making this particular instance super-special-no-debate-no-way would be ideologically inconsistent.
 
2014-01-22 08:08:25 PM  

umad: GlamrLama: jso2897: Al!: As a man who recently conceived a child intentionally with a woman who wanted to have my baby, who then dumped me and aborted my child: Fark you RvW, and Fark everyone who says a man should have no say in the matter.

Keep your dick in your pants in the presence of untrustworthy women in future. You just dodged a 16" artillary shell, and you should be thanking Jesus every day.

Word. Substitute "Lucky Stars" for Jesus and we are good.

"I don't care about my potential children so nobody else should either."


Care about what you like.
 
2014-01-22 08:09:07 PM  

Monkeyfark Ridiculous: InterruptingQuirk: Well, that's one way to look at it. But any thoughts on the unequal rights that I spoke of?


Parental rights and responsibilities pertain to children. These rules are all about the interests of the child. The child exists, it has needs. The relevant laws should apply equally to parents of both sexes so far as possible.

Abortion rights, from the pro-choice point of view, are essentially about the pregnant person's right to control the pregnancy. As a function of biology rather than law, the pregnant person is always female, so it is nonsensical to talk about men having rights in this area, "unequal" or otherwise. (And from the anti-abortion point of view, the question is moot because the state has control of the pregnancy.)


Horseshiat. If the argument against men having the right to "abort" their parental responsibilities is "keep it zipped up if you don't want to take responsibility for your choices" then my argument to pro-choice women is "keep it zipped up if you don't want to take responsibility for your choices."
 
2014-01-22 08:10:35 PM  

Monkeyfark Ridiculous: InterruptingQuirk: Well, that's one way to look at it. But any thoughts on the unequal rights that I spoke of?


Parental rights and responsibilities pertain to children. These rules are all about the interests of the child. The child exists, it has needs. The relevant laws should apply equally to parents of both sexes so far as possible.

Abortion rights, from the pro-choice point of view, are essentially about the pregnant person's right to control the pregnancy. As a function of biology rather than law, the pregnant person is always female, so it is nonsensical to talk about men having rights in this area, "unequal" or otherwise. (And from the anti-abortion point of view, the question is moot because the state has control of the pregnancy.)


Again, I'm not suggesting that he should have a say in whether or not she gets an abortion. What I'm saying is that she has two opportunities to make up her mind, whereas he has only one. He had sex with her and she is now pregnant, he is obligated if she chooses to keep it. She had sex and is pregnant, she now gets to make a choice that affects him too as he has no choice to not have the kid. Again, I'm not suggesting that he should have a say in whether or not she gets an abortion. This is about his choice following intercourse and the resultant conception where she has an additional choice that he does not have.
 
2014-01-22 08:11:06 PM  

jso2897: umad: GlamrLama: jso2897: Al!: As a man who recently conceived a child intentionally with a woman who wanted to have my baby, who then dumped me and aborted my child: Fark you RvW, and Fark everyone who says a man should have no say in the matter.

Keep your dick in your pants in the presence of untrustworthy women in future. You just dodged a 16" artillary shell, and you should be thanking Jesus every day.

Word. Substitute "Lucky Stars" for Jesus and we are good.

"I don't care about my potential children so nobody else should either."

Care about what you like.


No shiat. Thank your lucky stars if you like, but other people don't feel the same way.
 
2014-01-22 08:14:11 PM  

InterruptingQuirk: Monkeyfark Ridiculous: InterruptingQuirk: Well, that's one way to look at it. But any thoughts on the unequal rights that I spoke of?


Parental rights and responsibilities pertain to children. These rules are all about the interests of the child. The child exists, it has needs. The relevant laws should apply equally to parents of both sexes so far as possible.

Abortion rights, from the pro-choice point of view, are essentially about the pregnant person's right to control the pregnancy. As a function of biology rather than law, the pregnant person is always female, so it is nonsensical to talk about men having rights in this area, "unequal" or otherwise. (And from the anti-abortion point of view, the question is moot because the state has control of the pregnancy.)

Again, I'm not suggesting that he should have a say in whether or not she gets an abortion. What I'm saying is that she has two opportunities to make up her mind, whereas he has only one. He had sex with her and she is now pregnant, he is obligated if she chooses to keep it. She had sex and is pregnant, she now gets to make a choice that affects him too as he has no choice to not have the kid. Again, I'm not suggesting that he should have a say in whether or not she gets an abortion. This is about his choice following intercourse and the resultant conception where she has an additional choice that he does not have.


If she wants to carry the child but doesn't like the idea of raising it without the father's help, she could also have it adopted.  Man pays no support, woman doesn't care because she's not shackled to the kid, either.  Your idea encourages adoption, which is great!
 
2014-01-22 08:15:28 PM  

Monkeyfark Ridiculous: As a function of biology rather than law, the pregnant person is always female, so it is nonsensical to talk about men having rights in this area, "unequal" or otherwise


Men make up some ground on the rights tally with additional rights to testicular and prostate cancer treatments.

But then women are back in the race with assorted ovarian-related diseases.

I'd have to look up a list of gender-related diseases to get a final score on who has more rights.
 
2014-01-22 08:16:07 PM  

ArcadianRefugee: genner: Either it's murder or it's not. Choice shouldn't be the issue.

It's not. Murder is defined as an unlawful killing; if it is done within the bounds of the law, it isn't murder.


ArcadianRefugee: genner: Either it's murder or it's not. Choice shouldn't be the issue.

It's not. Murder is defined as an unlawful killing; if it is done within the bounds of the law, it isn't murder.

Bush isn't a murder, with that logic!
 
2014-01-22 08:18:20 PM  

another cultural observer: InterruptingQuirk: Monkeyfark Ridiculous: InterruptingQuirk: Well, that's one way to look at it. But any thoughts on the unequal rights that I spoke of?


Parental rights and responsibilities pertain to children. These rules are all about the interests of the child. The child exists, it has needs. The relevant laws should apply equally to parents of both sexes so far as possible.

Abortion rights, from the pro-choice point of view, are essentially about the pregnant person's right to control the pregnancy. As a function of biology rather than law, the pregnant person is always female, so it is nonsensical to talk about men having rights in this area, "unequal" or otherwise. (And from the anti-abortion point of view, the question is moot because the state has control of the pregnancy.)

Again, I'm not suggesting that he should have a say in whether or not she gets an abortion. What I'm saying is that she has two opportunities to make up her mind, whereas he has only one. He had sex with her and she is now pregnant, he is obligated if she chooses to keep it. She had sex and is pregnant, she now gets to make a choice that affects him too as he has no choice to not have the kid. Again, I'm not suggesting that he should have a say in whether or not she gets an abortion. This is about his choice following intercourse and the resultant conception where she has an additional choice that he does not have.

If she wants to carry the child but doesn't like the idea of raising it without the father's help, she could also have it adopted.  Man pays no support, woman doesn't care because she's not shackled to the kid, either.  Your idea encourages adoption, which is great!


I'm not assuming anything about what the mother wants to do after birth. Those are motivators, and as some have pointed out, they don't matter to the argument of choice. What I'm talking about is her power over the man with the choices she makes, i.e. she wants to raise it with the father's help and because he fathered it, he is now obligated with no recourse to get out of that situation as she had available to her.
 
2014-01-22 08:18:56 PM  

That Guy Jeff: jso2897: Ishkur: That Guy Jeff: The conservative dislike of abortion has absolutely nothing to do with women. They believe that abortion is killing a human being. They believe it is morally wrong to kill another human being,

Horseshiat. They have no problems with war adventuring, poverty, starvation, famine, and doing whatever it takes to make socially undesirable people suffer. They certainly don't care about harming others, why would they care about killing others.

Fetuses must be protected at all costs! But 100,000 Iraqi civillians -- fark 'em. They should have gotten out of the way of our missiles faster.

This sis why I stay away from the "motivation" argument. It doesn't matter what their motives are, or whether they are sincere. All that matters is stopping them.

Hmm. Imagine a world where everyone took such a libertarian approach to rights. "We thinks guns are killing people and want to talk about ways to restrict them. TOUGH CRAP, DOESN'T MATTER, MY RIGHT." "We think the chemicals you're adding to this product might kill people. TOUGH CRAP DOESN'T MATTER, MY RIGHT" "We think strip mining on that piece of land might be --- DOESN'T MATTER, MY RIGHT!"

Take a step back for a minute. Let's pretend, just for a moment, that there's a possibility, however slight, that a fetus is a living human being, and that the debate is whether or not one living human being's right to live is more important than another human being's rights over their body. That's probably a debate worth having, and it's probably not one that's easily finalized, and it's probably one that's going to continue to be going on for a long, long time as attitudes, beliefs, and medical science are constantly adjusted. Now, if the debate is "can the evil religious Patriarchy (and the women who also make up this group) control women's bodies or not?", that debate probably wouldn't last very long. It wouldn't be NEARLY as contentious as the whole "killing human beings" debate, no?

I get it. It's impo ...


I don't know what you think you are debating with whom. If you wish to hold the view that a fetus has an absolute right to life, and that removing it is murder, you are free to hold that view. I am only pointing out that if I were a pregnant woman, I would not be taking your view into consideration, no matter how long, loudly, and passionately you may advocate for it.
I don't know what you seem to find confusing about that.
The issue of whether aborting a fetus appears to me to be a metaphysical question - I don't see science providing us with an answer to it. and frankly, as a man, I can't say that I have given the issue the deep moral scrutiny I might give an issue upon which I will ever be called upon to decide. Call me intellectually lazy, but i haven't been able to work out all the moral dilemmas that deirectly involve me in this life - and I'm not about to start on other people's.
it seems to me that if someone believes abortion to be homicide, they should advance legislation to treat it as such, instead of erecting an endless set of inconveniences that only affect poor women. But they don't. Maybe you  can explain that to me before you ask me any more questions?
 
2014-01-22 08:18:57 PM  

Loadmaster: Chicken embryo → Chicken
Elephant embryo → Elephant
Dolphin embryo → Dolphin
Polar Bear embryo → Polar Bear
Spotted Owl embryo → Spotted Owl
Human embryo → Human Clump of cells


Whoa, get the party line straight or they'll make fun of you.
 
2014-01-22 08:19:09 PM  
Anyone who is truly against abortion would be pro-contraception and pro-sexual education as these are hands-down, by far the most effective ways to reduce abortions.

All the pro-lifers who are also against these are just trying to use the state to push their religion on others which is illegal.

All the pro-lifers that force mothers to carry unwanted fetuses to term but then do nothing to help support the actual children are liars and scumbags.
 
2014-01-22 08:20:17 PM  

Marcus Aurelius: TheShavingofOccam123: you'd be surprised at the number of GOP women and daughters who fly off to Tucson and other places around the country for simple procedures

THEIR abortion is different from all those other whores out there getting abortions.  And you can bet they'll be back at the clinic the next day, protesting the procedure they just had.


The Only Moral Abortion is My Abortion: When the Anti-Choice Choose

There's also  My Abortion Was Different: Why Women Shame and Blame Each Other, but it's not quite as interesting to read.
 
2014-01-22 08:22:00 PM  

umad: jso2897: umad: GlamrLama: jso2897: Al!: As a man who recently conceived a child intentionally with a woman who wanted to have my baby, who then dumped me and aborted my child: Fark you RvW, and Fark everyone who says a man should have no say in the matter.

Keep your dick in your pants in the presence of untrustworthy women in future. You just dodged a 16" artillary shell, and you should be thanking Jesus every day.

Word. Substitute "Lucky Stars" for Jesus and we are good.

"I don't care about my potential children so nobody else should either."

Care about what you like.

No shiat. Thank your lucky stars if you like, but other people don't feel the same way.


Fine. Let them feel however they want to feel.
 
2014-01-22 08:23:04 PM  

ciberido: Marcus Aurelius: TheShavingofOccam123: you'd be surprised at the number of GOP women and daughters who fly off to Tucson and other places around the country for simple procedures

THEIR abortion is different from all those other whores out there getting abortions.  And you can bet they'll be back at the clinic the next day, protesting the procedure they just had.

The Only Moral Abortion is My Abortion: When the Anti-Choice Choose

There's also  My Abortion Was Different: Why Women Shame and Blame Each Other, but it's not quite as interesting to read.


It's about women.  Duh.
 
2014-01-22 08:23:07 PM  
55 Million babies have been killed since Roe V Wade.

Let's take a shot for each one! :D
 
2014-01-22 08:23:08 PM  

jso2897: it seems to me that if someone believes abortion to be homicide, they should advance legislation to treat it as such, instead of erecting an endless set of inconveniences that only affect poor women. But they don't.


Playing devil's advocate here. It used to be considered ~homicide and then a U.S. Supreme Court ruling that has been upheld a number of times said it isn't. I don't think they have the realistic option anymore to propose such a bill.
 
2014-01-22 08:25:26 PM  

InterruptingQuirk: jso2897: it seems to me that if someone believes abortion to be homicide, they should advance legislation to treat it as such, instead of erecting an endless set of inconveniences that only affect poor women. But they don't.

Playing devil's advocate here. It used to be considered ~homicide and then a U.S. Supreme Court ruling that has been upheld a number of times said it isn't. I don't think they have the realistic option anymore to propose such a bill.


It was never treated as homicide under the law. It was unlawful - it was not classified as homicide. Not in my state, or any that i know of anyway.
 
2014-01-22 08:27:45 PM  

jso2897: InterruptingQuirk: jso2897: it seems to me that if someone believes abortion to be homicide, they should advance legislation to treat it as such, instead of erecting an endless set of inconveniences that only affect poor women. But they don't.

Playing devil's advocate here. It used to be considered ~homicide and then a U.S. Supreme Court ruling that has been upheld a number of times said it isn't. I don't think they have the realistic option anymore to propose such a bill.

It was never treated as homicide under the law. It was unlawful - it was not classified as homicide. Not in my state, or any that i know of anyway.


It was even legal in some states.  More, if life of the mother was at risk.
 
2014-01-22 08:28:25 PM  

That Guy Jeff: The conservative dislike of abortion has absolutely nothing to do with women. They believe that abortion is killing a human being. They believe it is morally wrong to kill another human being, at least, one that hasn't themselves killed someone. And that's it.


You missed the part where, in their mad defense of the "person" they think is inside the woman, they choose to forget that the *woman* is a *person* too. It has everything to do with women.
 
2014-01-22 08:28:28 PM  

jso2897: InterruptingQuirk: jso2897: it seems to me that if someone believes abortion to be homicide, they should advance legislation to treat it as such, instead of erecting an endless set of inconveniences that only affect poor women. But they don't.

Playing devil's advocate here. It used to be considered ~homicide and then a U.S. Supreme Court ruling that has been upheld a number of times said it isn't. I don't think they have the realistic option anymore to propose such a bill.

It was never treated as homicide under the law. It was unlawful - it was not classified as homicide. Not in my state, or any that i know of anyway.


Fair enough. Before my time. Fair to say that it was considered illegal and now it's legally protected ?right?. Either way, they would have no chance with that law, considering both the makeup of Congress and all the Supreme Court has had to say about the matter.
 
2014-01-22 08:28:43 PM  
whatscookingamerica.net

Fetus or human.  Delicious as all get out.
 
2014-01-22 08:29:15 PM  
Arkanaut:

it seems to me that if someone believes abortion to be homicide, they should advance legislation to treat it as such, instead of erecting an endless set of inconveniences that only affect poor women. But they don't. Maybe you  can explain that to me before you ask me any more questions?

Because the highest court in the land closed that avenue and so they desperately grasp at whatever methods they can to try and stop what they believe to be the state sanctioned murders of millions of people.

If YOU honestly believed that people were being murdered, and the state was legally prevented from stopping it, wouldn't you try everything to get around that block? I can't really blame for coming up with so many stupid ways to try and stop what they see as a baby holocaust. The fact that money can easily buy your way out of most problems or roadblocks in life doesn't mean they are targeting the poor, it just means the rich can get out of things a lot easier. Just about ANY law can be described as "... that only affect poor ____."
 
2014-01-22 08:29:48 PM  

Al!: As a man who recently conceived a child intentionally with a woman who wanted to have my baby, who then dumped me and aborted my child: Fark you RvW, and Fark everyone who says a man should have no say in the matter.


There's more to this story that you're going to refuse to give to us because it's going to turn out to make you look bad, so really just fark you for thinking you should have a say.
 
2014-01-22 08:32:39 PM  
Anywho, the women's rights have been foundationally settled. By that I mean that they have a right to independently decide to have an abortion, providing they can overcome all the obstacles put in their way.

What about the men's rights? I know that may seem like a silly question being put forth in this patriarchal society, but the one I spoke of is unequal in my mind. I know that the situation is unequal in that the woman is the one who gets pregnant, but she has been given recourse in the event of an unwanted pregnancy, the man has not.
 
2014-01-22 08:33:11 PM  

genner: Either it's murder or it's not. Choice shouldn't be the issue.


Callous: Either it's a living human being or it isn't.  Where it's physically located shouldn't be the issue.


I don't usually link to my own blog (and I certainly don't plan on making a habit of it), but I've already gone over why this is both  wrong and  over-simplified on it,  and I really don't want to do another GWOT today (even if it would be a [possibly reworded] cut'n'paste), so go there.
 
2014-01-22 08:33:14 PM  
The more I think about it, the more I wonder.
Why DON'T all these pro-life activists that are running aroundsaying that abortion is murder submit bills to make it so under the law?
Such laws might even be constitutional - Roe v. Wade merely overturned a law that discreetly banned abortion as a statutory act.
If abortion were reclassified as a homicide, there is no guarantee that Roe V. Wade would protect it. They could at least take their shot in the courts.
So why don't they do it?
I suspect that in the answer to that, lies the truth about the pro-life movement.
 
2014-01-22 08:33:46 PM  
I've been listening to this argument for decades.  In the end, it seems that some people think they have the right to force others to reproduce against their will.

That is slavery.  Plain and simple.

Game over.
 
2014-01-22 08:34:30 PM  
Never underestimate the eagerness of Fark posters to turn a thread about abortion into a thread about the rights of men.
 
2014-01-22 08:34:47 PM  

Barry Lyndon's Annuity Cheque: If people really wanted to stop abortion, they'd focus on advancements in artificial wombs. If you could just suck the thing out and let it gestate in a tube, I don't think it would be a big deal if abortions were outlawed. Of course if every abortion now leads to a new kid being born, you would need massive infrastructure projects and social policies to ensure that these tube babies have a decent shot at life instead of wasting away inside Dickensian orphanages.

So you can have your pro-life utopia, but somebody's going to have to pay for it.


Even with artificial wombs, I wouldn't want a child of my own brought into this world. Period. Abortion would still have to be on the table.
 
2014-01-22 08:37:25 PM  

jso2897: The more I think about it, the more I wonder.
Why DON'T all these pro-life activists that are running aroundsaying that abortion is murder submit bills to make it so under the law?
Such laws might even be constitutional - Roe v. Wade merely overturned a law that discreetly banned abortion as a statutory act.
If abortion were reclassified as a homicide, there is no guarantee that Roe V. Wade would protect it. They could at least take their shot in the courts.
So why don't they do it?
I suspect that in the answer to that, lies the truth about the pro-life movement.


They would have to get the bill made into a law before it could be challenged in the courts, yes?
 
2014-01-22 08:37:27 PM  

That Guy Jeff: Because you live in a democracy? Again, you're putting words in their mouth. They don't give a flying fark about your body, and they don't want possession of it. All they care about is that you do not murder anyone. That's it.


They're still hypocrites then, because what they're advocating is putting more lives into danger because their sole focus is just on one itty bitty little part of the picture.

They care about the fetuses. We get that. They need to take that sight, look around a bit, and realize that women really are people too, and hell, we're people long before the zygote or fetus ever even gets that far.

Their beliefs about what life is or isn't should not trump what another person may legally do with her own body. Period.
 
2014-01-22 08:38:26 PM  

InterruptingQuirk: Anywho, the women's rights have been foundationally settled. By that I mean that they have a right to independently decide to have an abortion, providing they can overcome all the obstacles put in their way.

What about the men's rights? I know that may seem like a silly question being put forth in this patriarchal society, but the one I spoke of is unequal in my mind. I know that the situation is unequal in that the woman is the one who gets pregnant, but she has been given recourse in the event of an unwanted pregnancy, the man has not.


There are no silly questions - only silly people who think they are too smart to ask questions. As far as your question, you'd have to be specific as to what "rights" you think a man might have vis a vis a pregnancy. i don't know if I can answer it at all, and certainly not as asked.
 
2014-01-22 08:38:30 PM  

Dusk-You-n-Me: Never underestimate the eagerness of Fark posters to turn a thread about abortion into a thread about the rights of men.


Is there any reasonable question about the rights of women on this issue that which should bear considering?
 
2014-01-22 08:39:09 PM  

Galileo's Daughter: hardinparamedic: Al!: As a man who recently conceived a child intentionally with a woman who wanted to have my baby, who then dumped me and aborted my child: Fark you RvW, and Fark everyone who says a man should have no say in the matter.

And fark you, Sir, as a man who thinks that women have the basic human right to not be forced to be an incubating meatsack for a fetus.

Know how you prevent that?  Birth control.  If you don't want to be an incubating meatsack* for a fetus, then use the diaphragm/pill/NuvaRing/IUD/or whatever works for you.  Problem solved averted.


/*The Incubating Meatsacks would be a good name for a punk-ska band.


And when the diaphragm/pill/NuvaRing/IUD/or whatever happens to fail, as all birth control is wont to do? Would you be smugly advocating that people just keep it in their pants?
 
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