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(Kyiv Post)   Not as sexy as Arab Spring, but as refreshing as water cannons at 18F. Ukraine still fights for freedom   (kyivpost.com) divider line 55
    More: Interesting, Kyiv, Arab Spring, water cannons, rubber bullets, weather forecasters, Ukraine  
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1211 clicks; posted to Politics » on 20 Jan 2014 at 9:46 AM (24 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-01-20 09:48:18 AM
Not as sexy?!

Have you seen Ukrainian women!?
 
2014-01-20 09:49:06 AM
The Ukrainians are more committed than the OWS people.
 
2014-01-20 10:00:49 AM
Russia would starve without Ukrainian food, so they will never allow the Ukrainian people to have true autonomy.
 
2014-01-20 10:06:15 AM
I thought the Ukraine was weak
 
2014-01-20 10:06:18 AM

Lost Thought 00: Russia would starve without Ukrainian food, so they will never allow the Ukrainian people to have true autonomy.


Hope Putin doesn't put them into a collective farm or something and starve millions of them...

/rolls eyes
 
2014-01-20 10:13:53 AM

eagles95: I thought the Ukraine was weak


well, they're not winning are they.

Ukraine.
img836.imageshack.us


With ladies like that walking around, i would have any energy left either...
 
2014-01-20 10:14:53 AM

Muta: The Ukrainians are more committed getting better (and more) media coverage than the OWS people.


FTFY

www.thenation.com
 
2014-01-20 10:23:02 AM

Muta: The Ukrainians are more committed than the OWS people.


This is they're second go-round.  The asshole they're protesting against was on the losing end of the Orange Revolution.  Then he somehow managed to win the next election fairly, and now he's playing Tinpot Dictator.
 
2014-01-20 10:34:16 AM
The lack of sexiness was re: utter lack of coverage (both in MSM and here).

And yes, I've "known" a Ukrainian woman. Or two.

// Source: I iz Ukrainian
 
2014-01-20 10:35:56 AM
Much like Mexico or Canada, location pretty much ensures that they'll never be free of their powerful neighbor.

I wish them luck, but the odds are stacked against them.
 
2014-01-20 10:55:19 AM

zyrian: The lack of sexiness was re: utter lack of coverage (both in MSM and here).

And yes, I've "known" a Ukrainian woman. Or two.

// Source: I iz Ukrainian


Are you also a LolCat?  OMG!  Are you Dorofei?
 
2014-01-20 11:06:52 AM
Meanwhile Americans just whine on the internet ...
 
2014-01-20 11:07:05 AM
Ows and Ukraine are totally unrelated. This is more like the million tea party patriot marches on fartbongo at the memorials he closed
 
2014-01-20 11:13:37 AM

Doktor_Zhivago: Ows and Ukraine are totally unrelated. This is more like the million tea party patriot marches on fartbongo at the memorials he closed


just replace the hover-rounds with Molotov Cocktails?
 
2014-01-20 11:21:32 AM

Infernalist: Much like Mexico or Canada, location pretty much ensures that they'll never be free of their powerful neighbor.

I wish them luck, but the odds are stacked against them.



You best be careful how you say that.
 
2014-01-20 11:25:57 AM
GIS for sexy Ukrainian, this came up firstcoedbc.files.wordpress.com
 
2014-01-20 11:29:36 AM

gremlin79: GIS for sexy Ukrainian, this came up first[coedbc.files.wordpress.com image 600x350]


You were thinking there was only one?
 
2014-01-20 11:33:40 AM

zyrian: The lack of sexiness was re: utter lack of coverage (both in MSM and here).

And yes, I've "known" a Ukrainian woman. Or two.

// Source: I iz Ukrainian


And once again I tip my proverbial hat to the BBC, which had a decent segment about it on World Report last night.  And thanks to that segment, I knew I could find images of this:

www.kyivpost.com
cryptome.org
There was also some dry British humor about protestors protesting their protesting rights being taken away.  In any case, I applaud the dark sense of humor that comes with responding to a ban on masks by putting stuff you found in your kitchen on your head.
 
2014-01-20 11:34:48 AM
FWIW the second photo is from the not-joining-the-EU protests, not the current government-curtailing-freedom ones.  Although there is a direct line and all.
 
2014-01-20 11:34:56 AM
I've been watching this with increased interest.  I'm very curious what exactly is going to come of it.  With no provision to remove their President, it may become quite interesting indeed.  Although now there's promises of promises of possible negotiation.
 
2014-01-20 11:40:53 AM

StreetlightInTheGhetto: FWIW the second photo is from the not-joining-the-EU protests, not the current government-curtailing-freedom ones.  Although there is a direct line and all.


What point are they trying to make with the Don Quixote imagery?
 
2014-01-20 11:57:26 AM

eagles95: I thought the Ukraine was weak


It's feeble. I think it's time to put the hurt on the Ukraine.
 
2014-01-20 12:06:20 PM
Well, they've succeeded in setting fire to some cops, anyway. We could do with a bit more of that. Fullerton comes to mind...
 
2014-01-20 12:07:17 PM

eagles95: I thought the Ukraine was weak


Ukraine is game to you?
 
2014-01-20 12:16:36 PM
These protests have to do with not joining the EU, right?
 
2014-01-20 01:00:44 PM

Frank N Stein: These protests have to do with not joining the EU, right?


That, amplified recently by passing some very strict anti-dissent laws.
 
2014-01-20 01:11:18 PM

Bondith: Muta: The Ukrainians are more committed than the OWS people.

This is they're second go-round.  The asshole they're protesting against was on the losing end of the Orange Revolution.  Then he somehow managed to win the next election fairly, and now he's playing Tinpot Dictator.


Man, I need to pay attention to foreign politics more.  I thought his opponent was still president.

This is the guy who had Russian Operatives poison his political opposition, right?  Oh right we don't "know" that happened, we just know it happened.
 
2014-01-20 01:29:44 PM
The depth of understanding of intricacies of international geopolitical situation and local situations across the globe continues to amaze me.

I'm talking right now with my friend from Ukraine, and even he doesn't have the slightest idea what actually is going on and why, he only knows that a lot of those protesting and fighting the police are actually the equivalent of Ukrainian white supremacists, and that while he is all for the freedom and stuff, he doesn't support in any way or form setting police on fire.

I would advice to try to use a bit more nuance and depth in the understanding of situation, rather than "evil Putin's guy playing tinpot dictator".
 
2014-01-20 01:30:04 PM
<img src="4.bp.blogspot.com ">
 
2014-01-20 01:30:14 PM

TheBigJerk: Bondith: Muta: The Ukrainians are more committed than the OWS people.

This is they're second go-round.  The asshole they're protesting against was on the losing end of the Orange Revolution.  Then he somehow managed to win the next election fairly, and now he's playing Tinpot Dictator.

Man, I need to pay attention to foreign politics more.  I thought his opponent was still president.

This is the guy who had Russian Operatives poison his political opposition, right?  Oh right we don't "know" that happened, we just know it happened.


The problem with Ukrainian politicians is that they're all named Viktor Y.

Except for the chick sitting in jail.  Is she still there?  Which Viktor Y put her there, the evil one or the pro-Western one?

/parse that phrasing however you want
 
2014-01-20 01:33:30 PM

Grahor: The depth of understanding of intricacies of international geopolitical situation and local situations across the globe continues to amaze me.

I'm talking right now with my friend from Ukraine, and even he doesn't have the slightest idea what actually is going on and why, he only knows that a lot of those protesting and fighting the police are actually the equivalent of Ukrainian white supremacists, and that while he is all for the freedom and stuff, he doesn't support in any way or form setting police on fire.

I would advice to try to use a bit more nuance and depth in the understanding of situation, rather than "evil Putin's guy playing tinpot dictator".


The sheer depth of studied ignorance is what keeps me coming back to Fark.
 
2014-01-20 01:40:04 PM

Grahor: The depth of understanding of intricacies of international geopolitical situation and local situations across the globe continues to amaze me.

I'm talking right now with my friend from Ukraine, and even he doesn't have the slightest idea what actually is going on and why, he only knows that a lot of those protesting and fighting the police are actually the equivalent of Ukrainian white supremacists, and that while he is all for the freedom and stuff, he doesn't support in any way or form setting police on fire.

I would advice to try to use a bit more nuance and depth in the understanding of situation, rather than "evil Putin's guy playing tinpot dictator".


 Though to be fair, your friend could be the Ukrainian teabagger equivalent, and thus his idea of what the protesters represent could be very skewed.  Particularly if "he doesn't have the slightest idea what actually is going on and why", so you can hardly blame others for doing their own research and coming to their own conclusions.
 
2014-01-20 01:40:32 PM

Frank N Stein: These protests have to do with not joining the EU, right?


If I had to guess it has as much to do with that as aligning with Russia instead.  If I were to venture a guess, there is still some bitter resentment in the general public towards the former USSR.
 
2014-01-20 02:01:39 PM
>>Except for the chick sitting in jail.  Is she still there?  Which Viktor Y put her there, the evil one or the pro-Western one? <<

Both of them together. Yanukovich (who is what you call "evil one") was president during trials, and Yushchenko (who is what you call pro-Western one) was testifying very actively against that chick, and defended the trials as honest and proper.

By the way, both of them, "evil" and "pro-Western" are actually both rather pro-Western and would rather be a part of Europe, they just represent interests of different groups of population - different ethnicities, so to say. Their rivalry is based more on tribalism rather than on actual political differences.

>>Though to be fair, your friend could be the Ukrainian teabagger equivalent, and thus his idea of what the protesters represent could be very skewed.  Particularly if "he doesn't have the slightest idea what actually is going on and why",so you can hardly blame others for doing their own research and coming to their own conclusions. <<

That is absolutely a valid concept. Locals quite often are not the most informed or understanding people, and my friend is not the most politically astute or politically active person; he actually sometimes asks me to explain the situations like EU association and what it really means, etc.

But he has access to local information sources, from pro-government and opposition media (you'll be surprised how free and popular opposition media is in supposedly tinpot dictatorship), he knows the language, he has the context and knowledge of history of local politics.

He is very much opposed to current government - he calls it old, tiresome and bothersome, people who out of their depth and don't know what to do with a country. He supports opposition, but at least 2/3 of current opposition, in his opinion, is even worse than current government, even less qualified and much less interested in helping anyone in the Ukrain but their own local "tribes" (Ukraine is pretty divided currently internally).


I also understand the language, so I do my own research. Listening to the opposition - they post their so-called "programs" and "platforms" on the internet, and, of course, the speaches of opposition leaders - I tend to agree. The level of misunderstanding of basic political and economical concepts among opposition leaders is astonishing, and their only proposed solution is "put us in power. No elections, no anything, just put us in power, and it will all be great. We will become members of the EU, and EU will fix our roads, hospitals and economy, because EU loves freedom and puppies, and every single person will be rich." Yeah. Pull the other one, this one has bells on it.

"No election" part is because the opposition can not and will not unite, and each part has the support only of its own small "tribe". And I understand why - they are very actively badmouthing every part of Ukraine's population but their own group.

*shrug* I say, the plague on both their houses. The problem of Ukraine is not Putin or dictatorship or anything, it's total political and economical illiteracy, everywhere, from top to bottom.
 
2014-01-20 02:04:50 PM

TheDarkSaintOfGin: Frank N Stein: These protests have to do with not joining the EU, right?

If I had to guess it has as much to do with that as aligning with Russia instead.  If I were to venture a guess, there is still some bitter resentment in the general public towards the former USSR.


Yep, from what I've heard:

* Russia has historically defended themselves using space and time.
* Since 1989, assuming that Ukraine defects to the West, they've lost about 1000 miles of space.
* So Russia REALLY wants Ukraine to be Russian

On the Ukranian side:

* 2/3rds of Ukraine is "Western", 1/3rd is Russian.
* The corrupt oligarchs who actually run the place know that Europe means a much bigger pie, but Russia means WAY more corruption, and thus a bigger piece.  Every one of them is trying to figure out how to make more money, and that'll determine which way they jump (To the Oligarchs: Have you *seen* America recently?  Just saying.  Do it right, and you too can create a $16 Trillion economy and get $1.5 Trillion in taxpayer money sent straight to your bank account after your Ponzi scheme implodes.)
 
2014-01-20 02:08:49 PM

TheDarkSaintOfGin: Frank N Stein: These protests have to do with not joining the EU, right?

If I had to guess it has as much to do with that as aligning with Russia instead.  If I were to venture a guess, there is still some bitter resentment in the general public towards the former USSR.


TFA is pretty weak in terms of information. The Googles help.

The protests began in November, after the government of Mr. Yanukovich declined to sign a sweeping free-trade agreement with the European Union.

Link
 
2014-01-20 02:13:58 PM

Nurglitch: Grahor: The depth of understanding of intricacies of international geopolitical situation and local situations across the globe continues to amaze me.

I'm talking right now with my friend from Ukraine, and even he doesn't have the slightest idea what actually is going on and why, he only knows that a lot of those protesting and fighting the police are actually the equivalent of Ukrainian white supremacists, and that while he is all for the freedom and stuff, he doesn't support in any way or form setting police on fire.

I would advice to try to use a bit more nuance and depth in the understanding of situation, rather than "evil Putin's guy playing tinpot dictator".

The sheer depth of studied ignorance is what keeps me coming back to Fark.


I thinks it's called "Question More."
 
2014-01-20 02:14:28 PM
>>If I had to guess it has as much to do with that as aligning with Russia instead.  If I were to venture a guess, there is still some bitter resentment in the general public towards the former USSR.<<

There is absolutely huge resentment in the general public towards the former USSR. But not always on a personal level. After all, a lot (a half?) of people in the Ukraine believe themselves ethnically Russians, or at least having Russian as their native language.

More importantly, there is resentment to soviet-type way of doing things, something inherited by Russia. Ukrainians uniformly want to be like Europe - efficient government and services, hospitals and schools, roads - oh, roads! The most cherished thought in the Ukraine that joining EU will magically fix their roads... Jobs and money, of course... That's why Ukrainians try to get away from Russia and into EU.

But the economical realities (Ukrainian economy can't compete with European economies right now, their main export markets are protected markets of Russia) make it hard to implement. Doing that means hard choices - allowing a significant part of population simply die out from hunger, literally, because there are no resources to modernize the economy in many, many regions. And current politicians (evil Victor Y, hehe) are not ready to do it. As wasn't ready "pro-Western" one. :)

Generally, it's a complex question.
 
2014-01-20 02:18:34 PM
>>The protests began in November, after the government of Mr. Yanukovich declined to sign a sweeping free-trade agreement with the European Union.<<

Those were _different_ protests.

Current round of protests is caused by new, more strict anti-protest laws (specifically no covering your face, no barricades, etc), caused by multiple crimes and excesses during EU association protests.
 
2014-01-20 02:20:52 PM

Grahor: >>Except for the chick sitting in jail.  Is she still there?  Which Viktor Y put her there, the evil one or the pro-Western one? <<

Both of them together. Yanukovich (who is what you call "evil one") was president during trials, and Yushchenko (who is what you call pro-Western one) was testifying very actively against that chick, and defended the trials as honest and proper.


Whoops, meant to change that to something less demeaning and forgot.

By the way, both of them, "evil" and "pro-Western" are actually both rather pro-Western and would rather be a part of Europe, they just represent interests of different groups of population - different ethnicities, so to say. Their rivalry is based more on tribalism rather than on actual political differences.

So one draws support from the region that used to be ruled by Poland-Lithuania and later Austria-Hungary (the guy with the Ukrainian last name?), and the other draws support from the bit that used to be ruled by Tsarist Russia (the guy with the Russian last name?)?

Also, if they're both pro-Western(ish), are they both evil?

/snark's done, I'm genuinely curious now
 
2014-01-20 02:38:13 PM

Prophet of Loss: Meanwhile Americans just whine on the internet ...


Of course! Most of us are fat, dumb, and (relatively) happy. As long as most people have a roof over their head, food, and TV/Internet; things aren't really going to change.

/ OTOH, if we ever get a Great Depression II, and people have nothing to lose, then all bets are off....
 
2014-01-20 02:44:44 PM

Forbidden Doughnut: Prophet of Loss: Meanwhile Americans just whine on the internet ...

Of course! Most of us are fat, dumb, and (relatively) happy. As long as most people have a roof over their head, food, and TV/Internet; things aren't really going to change.

/ OTOH, if we ever get a Great Depression II, and people have nothing to lose, then all bets are off....


Naw you'd still have a bunch of fat people fighting each other.
 
2014-01-20 02:54:30 PM
>>So one draws support from the region that used to be ruled by Poland-Lithuania and later Austria-Hungary (the guy with the Ukrainian last name?), and the other draws support from the bit that used to be ruled by Tsarist Russia (the guy with the Russian last name?)?<<

In simple terms, yes. But to understand all the complexities you get to get a bit closer in history. For example, the "western" Ukraine, Polish-Lithuanian, is not uniform. Some parts of it are actually Polish and became a part of Soviet Ukraine in in ww2, for a number of reasons. There are some very poor regions in "Polish" part of the Ukraine, and a lot of nationalistic feelings, and some richer regions who are not exactly close friends with poors...

The "Russian" part of Ukraine isn't united either. You get very poor Donbass region, with its global lack of jobs since USSR's dissolution, with all the resulting niceties. You get rich big cities, which are, nevertheless, "mostly Russian". And so on.

Generally, every little part thinks that it's they who are real honest working people, keeping the economy of Ukraine alive. While everyone else is a fraking freeloader who wants nothing but to steal their hard-earned gains. So, obviously, any politician from any other area is seen as a natural born thief who, if victorious, will rob and plunder the "earning" part of Ukraine to feed "freeloaders", and, of course, nothing good will come out of it.

Meanwhile, the country is incapable to even keep it road network working. They are literally "repaired" with earth - the holes are filled with earth... to make the road passable right to the next rain. Old "soviet roads" are remembered as an example of great workmanship compared to current situation. :) Check "ukraine roads" on YouTube, you'll learn to value what you have. :)
 
2014-01-20 02:56:31 PM
>>Also, if they're both pro-Western(ish), are they both evil? <<

They are doing their best to be good, I believe. The problem is, their best is damn unimpressive; but there is not a single Ukrainian politician who is better, as far as I can judge.

The only realistic road for Ukraine is, of course, towards EU. But this roads have to start from inside the EU, from its own people. After all, nobody will fix their roads but themselves...
 
2014-01-20 03:02:30 PM

Forbidden Doughnut: Prophet of Loss: Meanwhile Americans just whine on the internet ...

Of course! Most of us are fat, dumb, and (relatively) happy. As long as most people have a roof over their head, food, and TV/Internet; things aren't really going to change.

/ OTOH, if we ever get a Great Depression II, and people have nothing to lose, then all bets are off....


I'd also add to that:

* As long as I'm doing better than my parents were at my age, and my parents are currently doing better than me.
* As long as significant numbers of the electorate:
a) Are students of history.  Revolutions almost never work out.
b) Can look at just how farked up every single Socialist country was/is.  Even Europe's significantly poorer than we are with lower growth and higher unemployment, and they're not *that* socialist.
c) Are bought off by shiny.  Just saying.  As a general rule of thumb, the proles don't revolt.  Getting the proles to revolt is hard, especially if they're at not-starving.  Getting the middle class to revolt is easy.  They do it all the damn time.  Hell, the American Revolution was kicked off by de-facto nobles, as was the Civil War.  Peasants might join in, they don't start shiat.
 
2014-01-20 03:04:44 PM

whidbey: Forbidden Doughnut: Prophet of Loss: Meanwhile Americans just whine on the internet ...

Of course! Most of us are fat, dumb, and (relatively) happy. As long as most people have a roof over their head, food, and TV/Internet; things aren't really going to change.

/ OTOH, if we ever get a Great Depression II, and people have nothing to lose, then all bets are off....

Naw you'd still have a bunch of fat people fighting each other.


Most of the older office complexes for the major oil companies have 10 foot high concrete (or at least cinderblock) walls around them.  This is because during the nasty energy crunches a few decades back people would just randomly shoot at the buildings.

During the housing collapse a high-rise here in Houston that belonged to AIG ripped the logo off their building, (and in enough of a hurry that it had a discolored spot where they'd slapped a big patch of spackle and paint over the area) because they were getting security problems and blowback for nuking the economy and demanding the taxpayers save them.

The logo is back, since they're out of the news, but shiat happens when it's bad enough the masses can't be distracted and divided.
 
2014-01-20 03:08:43 PM

meyerkev: Peasants might join in, they don't start shiat.


lolwut
 
2014-01-20 03:10:29 PM

TheBigJerk: Most of the older office complexes for the major oil companies have 10 foot high concrete (or at least cinderblock) walls around them.  This is because during the nasty energy crunches a few decades back people would just randomly shoot at the buildings.


I had not heard that. That's an interesting audio/visual.
 
2014-01-20 03:17:42 PM

whidbey: meyerkev: Peasants might join in, they don't start shiat.

lolwut


Historically speaking a lot of angry men being angry doesn't become an army until someone shows up with enough cash to front some supplies and equipment and most "revolutionary voices" were educated, coulda-been-a-lap-dog folk who decided they didn't want to keep playing the same corrupt game, but would rather change the rules.

Flip side is you don't need a REVOLUTION to get what you need.  There have been plenty of successful "revolutions" that were just a case of the aristocracy getting a black eye and learning to be afraid of revolutions again.

George Bush Sr. and Bill Clinton were not noted for their complicated, corrupt, and illegal security state, despite one being the sleazy son of a salesman and one being the former director of the  farking CIA.  Now maybe I am just a foolish optimist but I think Iran-Contra had something to do with that.
 
2014-01-20 03:26:08 PM

gremlin79: GIS for sexy Ukrainian, this came up first[coedbc.files.wordpress.com image 600x350]


That hand gesture... almost but not quite shocking.
 
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