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(Dangerous Minds)   Hey look at these old photos of this secular enlightened country where women wore short skirts, went to co-ed universities, voted, had equal rights and...Wait, that's what Afghanistan was like before the Taliban   (dangerousminds.net) divider line 180
    More: Interesting, Taliban, Afghanistan, dolls  
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20600 clicks; posted to Main » on 19 Jan 2014 at 6:39 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



180 Comments   (+0 »)
   
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2014-01-18 07:57:14 PM  
I was opposed to the Soviet attempt to colonize Afghanistan because it was equivalent to the US "presence" in Vietnam. Back then it was hard to imagine anything like the Taliban happening anywhere; indeed it was hard to foresee what the Twelvers would get up to next door, which is bad enough.

Of course when you look at photos like these you've got to understand such "Westernized" people comprised the richest few percent of Afghans, the upper-middles who ran things for them, and their clerical help; such people who could took off when the Stalinists took over, long before there was any real need to.

Outside the biggest metro areas it was always medieval, full of mullahs farking goats.
 
2014-01-18 08:01:49 PM  
Thanks Regan!
 
2014-01-18 08:10:48 PM  
Iran was like this before the Ayatollah.
 
2014-01-18 10:05:44 PM  
When was the last time religion actually improved a country?
 
2014-01-19 12:08:01 AM  

Fark It: Iran was like this before the Ayatollah.


And Iraq was pretty similar before US sanctions took full effect. Then of course the invasion shot everything to hell.

Why women are less free 10 years after the invasion of Iraq

3.bp.blogspot.com

Iraqi women at university in Iraq in the 1970s
 
2014-01-19 12:31:48 AM  
While on vacation, I watched a story on AlJazeera about two Afghan women who had been attacked by their husbands. One had her lips and nose cut and was severely beaten, the other was killed and chopped into pieces. The police and everyone knew who committed the crimes, but both husbands are still free. They will likely never face punishment.

WTF? I don't even know what to say about how sick and wrong that is.
 
2014-01-19 12:36:28 AM  
We will be greeted as womens liberators.
 
2014-01-19 12:40:52 AM  
This could never happen in America.
 
2014-01-19 12:41:20 AM  
That's Afghanistan before the Communist coup that lead to civil war.  The Taliban came later.
 
2014-01-19 12:45:14 AM  
Iran. Iraq. Afghanistan. All of these countries have legitimate beefs with US foreign policy, and the meddling in their affairs. Iran was one of the most progressive democracies in the Middle East before the US, Great Britain and BP helped engineer a return of the Shah. Iraq wasn't as progressive, but was on track, until it ran afoul of US interests. Afghanistan had its issues, but between the Soviets and the American interest in their nation, and our backing folks with a LOT of munitions, with NO assistance once they ousted the Soviets, yeah, the Taliban went to work on whipping things into shape as they saw fit.

The anger in these countries isn't about our freedoms. It isn't about our faith. It isn't about Israel even--though in part, keeping these nations rife with internal struggles and under the thumb of theocrats without much interest in actually building or educating their people in a modern sense IS in Israel's interests--it's about actions. Actions that have impacted their nations fair severely.

Until we understand this, we aren't going to make any headway. At some point, WE need to apologize and try to set things right. Not by imposing MOAR sanctions, not by demanding compliant leadership, not by tearing down their governments, but by helping them achieve their own goals, and help them back into the circle of nations, and not just by shipping oil out, or letting contractors in.

These nations are the way they are today, because of things we did. To them. Years ago. Direct actions. Actions through intermediaries to give us "deniability." Actions that set their nations back generations. We did this, and the anger is real, and it is even justified.

Does this mean that the support of terrorism is just? Nope. But it is understandable. Like Chris Rock said, "you gotta look at OJ's situation. He's paying $25,000 a month in alimony, got another man driving around in his car and f*cking his wife in a house he's still paying the mortgage on. Now I'm not saying he should have killed her... but I understand." These are folks who have turned to the only folks who have had any success in driving the point home, here and abroad. We created these monsters, and sadly, our actions in the last twenty years are only creating more.

At some point, we're going to have to come to terms with it. And then do something other than shoot the ones who have reached a limit to how much more meddling they'll stand, or the ones who've been raised by folks who are just sick and tired of the busllsh*t excuses that we've given over the years.
 
2014-01-19 12:46:03 AM  
 
2014-01-19 12:58:49 AM  

Fark It: Iran was like this before the Ayatollah.


This, and so was Iraq.
 
2014-01-19 01:48:19 AM  

hubiestubert: Iran. Iraq. Afghanistan. All of these countries have legitimate beefs with US foreign policy, and the meddling in their affairs. Iran was one of the most progressive democracies in the Middle East before the US, Great Britain and BP helped engineer a return of the Shah. Iraq wasn't as progressive, but was on track, until it ran afoul of US interests. Afghanistan had its issues, but between the Soviets and the American interest in their nation, and our backing folks with a LOT of munitions, with NO assistance once they ousted the Soviets, yeah, the Taliban went to work on whipping things into shape as they saw fit.

The anger in these countries isn't about our freedoms. It isn't about our faith. It isn't about Israel even--though in part, keeping these nations rife with internal struggles and under the thumb of theocrats without much interest in actually building or educating their people in a modern sense IS in Israel's interests--it's about actions. Actions that have impacted their nations fair severely.

Until we understand this, we aren't going to make any headway. At some point, WE need to apologize and try to set things right. Not by imposing MOAR sanctions, not by demanding compliant leadership, not by tearing down their governments, but by helping them achieve their own goals, and help them back into the circle of nations, and not just by shipping oil out, or letting contractors in.

These nations are the way they are today, because of things we did. To them. Years ago. Direct actions. Actions through intermediaries to give us "deniability." Actions that set their nations back generations. We did this, and the anger is real, and it is even justified.

Does this mean that the support of terrorism is just? Nope. But it is understandable. Like Chris Rock said, "you gotta look at OJ's situation. He's paying $25,000 a month in alimony, got another man driving around in his car and f*cking his wife in a house he's still paying the mortgage on. Now I'm not saying he ...


So appeasement?  That's your answer?

I agree we've created a rabid dog in multiple points the world over, but letting it run free isn't a solution.  Caging it, paying off its offspring with food and then killing the older generation is the only thing that's going to let us move forward.

If you let the offended run things, they're correctly going to bite that which attacked them.  That dog has to be put down, but the next generation can learn that there's good to be had by cooperating.
 
2014-01-19 02:10:56 AM  

Lsherm: So appeasement?  That's your answer?

I agree we've created a rabid dog in multiple points the world over, but letting it run free isn't a solution.  Caging it, paying off its offspring with food and then killing the older generation is the only thing that's going to let us move forward.

If you let the offended run things, they're correctly going to bite that which attacked them.  That dog has to be put down, but the next generation can learn that there's good to be had by cooperating.


It's interesting that your thought of accepting responsibility is "appeasement." It says a bit more about your own thinking.

I wasn't kidding, in that the first step with all of these folks is an actual apology. In order to make any real headway, we have to actually accept that we've done them wrong, address that wrong, and work from there to help set things right.

If you make a mistake, is it "appeasement" to accept your own culpability? We created monsters in these nations. We fed them, we armed them, and we set them loose. We back monsters across the globe, and are then we dare to be surprised when they turn on us? In Afghanistan, we backed monsters, and armed them, and then abandoned them, with no skills at nation building, an economy and nation in ruins, and are we are surprised that these folks screwed up their country, and we KNEW what these folks were when we armed them to run up against the Soviets, and that was fine, because they were pointing guns at the folks we didn't like. We've backed monsters again and again. We've built them up, and then set them up against folks, and we are surprised that they harbor some ill will at their treatment?

At some point we have to accept our responsibility, and actually do something useful, as opposed to continuing the cycle of revenge, ill will, and resentment. That's not appeasement, that's being a f*cking adult about the damn things we've done. And have allowed to be done in our names.

Shooting more folks isn't going to make that resentment go away. It hasn't worked for Israel, it hasn't worked for the Russians, and the only way it's ever worked for the Chinese, is shooting EVERYONE in a region, and then sending in new folks to replace them. Taking responsibility is exactly the opposite of "letting them run free"; it is the only sane option.
 
2014-01-19 02:20:22 AM  

hubiestubert: It's interesting that your thought of accepting responsibility is "appeasement." It says a bit more about your own thinking.


Accepting responsibility isn't appeasement.  What I find interesting about YOUR line of thought is that you think you can negotiate with a monster you created.  You can't.  You can negotiate with the next generation and that REQUIRES accepting responsibility, but the horse is out of the barn for the people we are currently fighting.

And we don't necessarily have to kill the current generation, since I agree that will make it worse.  What we need to do is make them irrelevant by backing the next generation.
 
2014-01-19 02:39:18 AM  

Lsherm: hubiestubert: It's interesting that your thought of accepting responsibility is "appeasement." It says a bit more about your own thinking.

Accepting responsibility isn't appeasement.  What I find interesting about YOUR line of thought is that you think you can negotiate with a monster you created.  You can't.  You can negotiate with the next generation and that REQUIRES accepting responsibility, but the horse is out of the barn for the people we are currently fighting.

And we don't necessarily have to kill the current generation, since I agree that will make it worse.  What we need to do is make them irrelevant by backing the next generation.


What does proper nation building look like?

1) leave them alone and let them do whatever they want. YUCK.
2) do what we did. YUCK
3) figure out something which has some hope at all of working. hard, but the only viable option

sorry about all the fark ups, but that wasnt me, that isnt now, and nothing will undo what was done.

One option is to acknowledge that there are parts of the world which ... nothing can be done.
And not care that they are what they are.
Interdict them. Let em do what they want inside their country and kill/shoot down anyone that leaves.

It is interesting that you dont hear a lot about how to fix places like Somalia, Haiti, NK, etc etc etc
 
2014-01-19 02:41:39 AM  

Lsherm: hubiestubert: It's interesting that your thought of accepting responsibility is "appeasement." It says a bit more about your own thinking.

Accepting responsibility isn't appeasement.  What I find interesting about YOUR line of thought is that you think you can negotiate with a monster you created.  You can't.  You can negotiate with the next generation and that REQUIRES accepting responsibility, but the horse is out of the barn for the people we are currently fighting.

And we don't necessarily have to kill the current generation, since I agree that will make it worse.  What we need to do is make them irrelevant by backing the next generation.


Negotiation is only possible when there is a solid and coherent leadership.

There isn't with Jihadists. There isn't with disparate tribes, and factions either.

We can only negotiate when there is stability enough for a leadership to cohere. Iran is a different animal than Iraq. Iran, despite its problems, IS a nation that is united and with a solid leadership, and one that has a long memory. Iraq? We broke that country, plain and simple. We broke it, we let it dive into factionalism and chaos, and then we wound up with more strife than we went in--and worse, we erected a weak leadership that is likely to fall over entirely soon enough, and plunge the nation into the hands of folks who REALLY dislike not just us, but a damn lot of each other, and with grudges aplenty. Afghanistan? Barely united even before the Soviets, and with deep internal squabbles, and after its abandonment, and their ill use by the US, those oddly enough, exploded all over the place, and with a LOT of weapons and grudges anew.

Stability has to come from investing not just in troops, but investing in infrastructure, education, and forging alliances not just with us, but with one another. We have to offer more choices than guns, God, or glory. And that's not going to come about with putting vulture capitalists in charge of reconstruction. That's not going to come about with putting private contractors out to do "security" without oversight and immunity from prosecution. The approach has been to pacify in Iraq and Afghanistan, and to sequester in Iran, and that's just not cutting it. It's only making folks more entrenched. We need better solutions than just hunting down folk's brothers and sisters and cousins, and asking them to choose between family and a nebulous "better tomorrow"--especially given that these folks have a fair experience already with such plans and discussions. We need to help them find that stability, and find their own path.

We got into a lot of this mess, when we looked the other way when the Brits dismantled Iran's democracy. We looked the other way, when we armed the Taliban, and set them loose on the Soviets. We looked the other way, when Iraq was belligerent to Iran, who we really didn't like at the time.

With Iran, we need to acknowledge our culpability. That will go a long ways with the people, and their leadership. Theirs is a long standing and valid anger. With Afghanistan, our neglect fractured the nation and our tinpot crazies made it into their own image, which we accepted when we called them "freedom fighters." We need better investment, they need real education, and better opportunities than selling poppies to feed their families up in the hills, and real security in their own nation. Iraq we just shattered, plain and simple, and that one is a convoluted issue, because they aren't uneducated hill people, and they likewise know exactly what was done, and why, and ultimately, we are going to have chase down a lot of them, because before we went in, they actually weren't terribly radicalized. We've given them a few reasons to be so now, and our involvement let in a lot of folks who weren't in the mix before we came.

None of these nations needs "appeasement" but all of them need us to be gottverdammt adults when we go to the table, and in Iraq and Afghanistan, we need to actually build a damn table for them to sit down at first.
 
2014-01-19 03:24:18 AM  

optikeye: Thanks Regan!


i293.photobucket.com

You are very welcome!

/Devil made me do it.
 
2014-01-19 06:47:58 AM  
bluecollarchronicle.com
 
2014-01-19 06:50:48 AM  
I see Hubie has this thread well in hand.
 
2014-01-19 06:53:16 AM  

Bucky Katt: jaylectricity: This could never happen in America.

Nope. http://open.salon.com/blog/oryoki_bowl/2013/09/29/of_prairie_muffins_ a nd_suburban_tacos_my_fermented_summer


Very disappointing link.
 
2014-01-19 06:56:09 AM  
NOW LOOK AT AMERICA, and tell yourselves right-wing conservative religious zealots could never do that here.
 
2014-01-19 06:57:03 AM  

optikeye: Thanks Regan!


I think that Goneril and Cordelia deserve some of the blame as well.
 
2014-01-19 06:57:57 AM  

weltallica: NOW LOOK AT AMERICA, and tell yourselves right-wing conservative religious zealots could never do that here.


Their positions on birth control and abortion are already worse than any in Islam.
 
2014-01-19 06:58:14 AM  
www.allrussias.com
 
2014-01-19 07:04:38 AM  
They hate us for our bacon.
 
2014-01-19 07:06:23 AM  

jchic: When was the last time religion actually improved a country?


just sayin
reactionary religion is often the response to the country becoming poor
 
2014-01-19 07:08:38 AM  
Iraq had world-leading liberal arts universities.... you know, until the US blew them up.
 
2014-01-19 07:09:15 AM  

jaylectricity: This could never happen in America.


Actually, I'm not so sure about that, and it's why the increasingly factionalized and extremist political parties in America scares the hell out of me.
 
2014-01-19 07:13:52 AM  
Progressive Afghanistan was never a majority which is made of warring fanatical tribes. Sure they saw some progress in major cities, but the majority of the population was never on board.
 
2014-01-19 07:16:39 AM  

weltallica: NOW LOOK AT AMERICA, and tell yourselves right-wing conservative religious zealots could never do that here.


In America the oppression is socio-economic and it has already happened.  It will only get worse.
 
2014-01-19 07:16:58 AM  

jchic: When was the last time religion actually improved a country?


Inventing science.
Creating the first modern university.
Abolitionism.
First-wave feminism.
Civil rights Movement.

You're welcome.
 
2014-01-19 07:17:35 AM  

vudukungfu: "We will be greeted as womens liberators.

"

Exactly! And, if spend enough lives on them, their bakers will bake any kind of cake they're told to.
 
2014-01-19 07:18:41 AM  
Those are very good looking women.

But I'm disposed to middle eastern women's body type. Bewbs, butt, couple of extra pounds and raven tresses.

Grade school friend had hot (to me) sisters.

I'll be in my bunk.
 
2014-01-19 07:20:31 AM  

optikeye: Thanks Regan!


i1207.photobucket.com

you too!
 
2014-01-19 07:23:54 AM  
Here in America those who'd happily run the country Taliban-style just start their own universities
http://www.bju.edu/life-faith/student-handbook.pdf
 
2014-01-19 07:23:56 AM  

Lsherm: So appeasement?  That's your answer?


Starting your argument with a buzz-word meant to create negativity based on nothing other than the buzz-word is not going to get you very far. It's like using the word "denier" in a climate change thread... you lose all credibility the second you say it.

I agree we've created a rabid dog in multiple points the world over, but letting it run free isn't a solution.

Umm... we ARE the rabid dog.

Caging it, paying off its offspring with food and then killing the older generation is the only thing that's going to let us move forward.

If you let the offended run things, they're correctly going to bite that which attacked them.  That dog has to be put down, but the next generation can learn that there's good to be had by cooperating.


Would that work if a foreign country did to us what we've done to them? Would YOU cooperate with them? Me, I'd learn how to build a remote-controlled bomb and set it by the side of the road, waiting for them to drive by. And I'd also kill any Americans who cooperated with them. Unlike  hubiestubert, I think that their terrorism and attempts at terrorism is totally justified... how else can you fight an enemy that is 100 years more technologically advanced and has 10,000 times the money to wage war with? You wouldn't box by the rules if you fought Joe Frazier in his prime, would you?
 
2014-01-19 07:25:04 AM  
Are we sure? Sure sounds like the American South.
 
2014-01-19 07:27:20 AM  

Bungles: Iraq had world-leading liberal arts universities.... you know, until the US blew them up.


In Iraq under Saddam women could vote in elections
 
2014-01-19 07:37:08 AM  
I want to hear more from the guy who said killing them is the only answer, then said maybe we wouldn't have to kill them.
 
2014-01-19 07:39:20 AM  
Throughout 1978 and 1979, the communists in charge of Afghanistan tried to extend the idea of women's rights out into the countryside and set up literacy schools for rural Afghan women. This is what really freaked out the Mujahadeen and the mullahs, who attacked the schools and killed many of the students and teachers.  That's when the government in Kabul called in the Soviets, who sent in their military to quell the fundamentalists at the end of December 1979.

"The Communists were trying to change the law of God. They wanted to destroy 
Islamic traditions -- to rid Afghanistan of poverty and make everyone 
equal. This is against the law of Islam -- God has decided who is rich 
and who is poor. It can't be changed by Communists. It's beyond 
imagination." 
Sahar Gul, Mullah Laghman Province (CNN Cold War: Soldiers of God, 1998)
 
2014-01-19 07:40:08 AM  
The fact of the matter is that the democratization of power is what led to the widespread takeover of conservative islam in Iran, Iraq and Afghanistan. The revolutions that over threw the Shah, the Soviets and Saddam were what allowed the conservatives to come to power. Look what happened to Egypt. They elected that whacko Morsi and he appointed the guy responsible for machine gunning scores of Swiss tourists to be his minister of tourism. The military saw how that would play in the west and kicked his ass out.

Paul Theroux's The Great Railway Bazaar was published in 1977 just before everything went to shiat and it was about his train trip from London to Calcutta crossing through Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan and Pakistan. Still a great read and an object lesson in democracy. Nobody ever remembers Hitler was democratically elected.
 
2014-01-19 07:42:48 AM  
Now it's a religious paradise. Hopefully that enlightment will come to America.
 
2014-01-19 07:46:58 AM  

bigworld2000: Throughout 1978 and 1979, the communists in charge of Afghanistan tried to extend the idea of women's rights out into the countryside and set up literacy schools for rural Afghan women. This is what really freaked out the Mujahadeen and the mullahs, who attacked the schools and killed many of the students and teachers.  That's when the government in Kabul called in the Soviets, who sent in their military to quell the fundamentalists at the end of December 1979.

"The Communists were trying to change the law of God. They wanted to destroy 
Islamic traditions -- to rid Afghanistan of poverty and make everyone 
equal. This is against the law of Islam -- God has decided who is rich 
and who is poor. It can't be changed by Communists. It's beyond 
imagination." 
Sahar Gul, Mullah Laghman Province (CNN Cold War: Soldiers of God, 1998)


Islamic Prosperity Gospel.. wow.
 
2014-01-19 07:51:57 AM  
Well maybe in some areas.

But that kind of shiat doesn't happen in a vacuum.

Germans didn't love the Jews right up until Hitler came around.
 
2014-01-19 07:56:28 AM  
Intelligent and stupid people, respectively, often examine the same facts, and arrive at different conclusions.
Upon examining the facts at hand here, and intelligent person might conclude that religious fanatics and fundamentalists are an obstacle to human progress, and should be blocked from power as much as possible.
A stupid person might conclude that "Muslims are bad", and that we need to bankrupt ourselves in a futile attempt to kill them all.
Same facts - different brains.
 
2014-01-19 07:56:55 AM  
Third world dung heap.  Farkem.....
 
2014-01-19 07:56:56 AM  

bindlestiff2600: jchic: When was the last time religion actually improved a country?

just sayin
reactionary religion is often the response to the country becoming poor


So is paying the lottery.

And the odds on the powerball are better than religion fixing the country.
 
2014-01-19 08:00:08 AM  

Bslim: Now it's a religious paradise. Hopefully that enlightment will come to America.


Don't worry. We're working on it.
i18.photobucket.com
 
2014-01-19 08:01:13 AM  

bigworld2000: Throughout 1978 and 1979, the communists in charge of Afghanistan tried to extend the idea of women's rights out into the countryside and set up literacy schools for rural Afghan women. This is what really freaked out the Mujahadeen and the mullahs, who attacked the schools and killed many of the students and teachers.  That's when the government in Kabul called in the Soviets, who sent in their military to quell the fundamentalists at the end of December 1979.


So, typical Soviet occupation?
 
2014-01-19 08:02:48 AM  

gnosis301: I want to hear more from the guy who said killing them is the only answer, then said maybe we wouldn't have to kill them.


And then of course, there is the problem of clearly and unambiguously defining "them".
Who exactly are "they", anyway?
 
2014-01-19 08:04:39 AM  

subsetzero: Third world dung heap.  Farkem.....


How 'bout we just stand off at a safe distance and watch 'em fark each orther?
 
2014-01-19 08:06:27 AM  

Mr. Coffee Nerves: Here in America those who'd happily run the country Taliban-style just start their own universities
http://www.bju.edu/life-faith/student-handbook.pdf


Thanks for posting this. "BJ"U is not nearly as fun as it sounds.

/They produce homeschool curriculum for k through 12 too.
//Actively against scientific theory
///They don't like Catholics if I remember right. (nothing better than factionalized Christianity)

Had a couple of years exposure to the home school shiat. Farked up.
 
2014-01-19 08:07:06 AM  

jso2897: subsetzero: Third world dung heap.  Farkem.....

How 'bout we just stand off at a safe distance and watch 'em fark each orther?


Wouldn't that distract from watching American Gladiators?
 
2014-01-19 08:16:57 AM  
A lot of self-loathing in this thread. Perhaps you should travel to the Middle East and walk around appologizing. Don't call the embassy when you make your spiritual connection with your fellow peace loving friends.
 
2014-01-19 08:26:16 AM  

Princess Ryans Knickers: Are we sure? Sure sounds like the American South.


Well, bless your heart.
 
2014-01-19 08:32:15 AM  

jchic: When was the last time religion actually improved a country?



Perhaps it is worth considering why this atheist author at richarddawkins.net argues that only Christianity can save Africa.
 
2014-01-19 08:32:58 AM  
There is no place for religious fundamentalism in the 21rst century.  I usually say no place for religion but that Pope Francis guy seems to be the genuine article which is a welcome change, maybe just maybe if there was more of him and less Westboro Baptist church-like things roaming around things would be better.
 
2014-01-19 08:33:29 AM  

OscarTamerz: The fact of the matter is that the democratization of power is what led to the widespread takeover of conservative islam in Iran, Iraq and Afghanistan. The revolutions that over threw the Shah, the Soviets and Saddam were what allowed the conservatives to come to power. Look what happened to Egypt. They elected that whacko Morsi and he appointed the guy responsible for machine gunning scores of Swiss tourists to be his minister of tourism. The military saw how that would play in the west and kicked his ass out.

Paul Theroux's The Great Railway Bazaar was published in 1977 just before everything went to shiat and it was about his train trip from London to Calcutta crossing through Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan and Pakistan. Still a great read and an object lesson in democracy. Nobody ever remembers Hitler was democratically elected.


Uh, wtf are you on about? Iran had a democratic government until the US engineered the ascent of the Shah. Iraq never had a revolution at all. The US invaded, raped the country and culture and left a power vacuum. Afghanistan had a democratic government until the Soviets engineered a Communist government. Which in turn catalyzed their revolution. None of your three examples even remotely support your position.
 
2014-01-19 08:35:43 AM  

weltallica: NOW LOOK AT AMERICA, and tell yourselves right-wing conservative religious zealots could never do that here.


Meh, right wing zealots tend to be old, hoverround riding farts. A real right wing uprising would probably take the Country Kitchen Buffet before being blown to hell by the Air Force.
/Still, it wouldn't hurt to own a gun and know how to use it.
//As well as supplies, a radio, and an evacuation route.
///Just in case.
 
2014-01-19 08:36:15 AM  
Those harlots!  Farking their minds with liberal ideas and independent thought,  they must be struck down!
 
2014-01-19 08:41:26 AM  

T-Boy: A lot of self-loathing in this thread. Perhaps you should travel to the Middle East and walk around appologizing. Don't call the embassy when you make your spiritual connection with your fellow peace loving friends.


You sound like the kind of guy who breaks something at a party and then leaves after justifying it as the hosts fault.

/you know
//a dick
 
2014-01-19 08:45:08 AM  

Prophet of Loss: Progressive Afghanistan was never a majority which is made of warring fanatical tribes. Sure they saw some progress in major cities, but the majority of the population was never on board.


The smart people always live in the cities, wherever you are.
 
2014-01-19 08:46:13 AM  

T-Boy: A lot of self-loathing in this thread. Perhaps you should travel to the Middle East and walk around appologizing. Don't call the embassy when you make your spiritual connection with your fellow peace loving friends.


And you can volunteer to go over and kill all the bad guys,

But then, you don't sound like someone with courage.
 
2014-01-19 08:48:30 AM  

GilRuiz1: jchic: When was the last time religion actually improved a country?


Perhaps it is worth considering why this atheist author at richarddawkins.net argues that only Christianity can save Africa.


It appears that he thinks rural Africans are idiots who need a fairy tale to make them start pulling their bootstraps.

I would think stability, rule of law and economic freedom might be more useful to them. It would also probably result in less women being burned as witches.
 
2014-01-19 08:50:25 AM  

ghare: Prophet of Loss: Progressive Afghanistan was never a majority which is made of warring fanatical tribes. Sure they saw some progress in major cities, but the majority of the population was never on board.

The smart people always live in the cities, wherever you are.


media2.wxyz.com
 
2014-01-19 08:53:29 AM  

BMFPitt: ghare: Prophet of Loss: Progressive Afghanistan was never a majority which is made of warring fanatical tribes. Sure they saw some progress in major cities, but the majority of the population was never on board.

The smart people always live in the cities, wherever you are.

[media2.wxyz.com image 300x225]


You know who else lived in the city?
 
2014-01-19 08:53:34 AM  

jchic: When was the last time religion actually improved a country?


I think the Soviet Union is  excellent example of what atheism does to a country. Or China under Mao. Cambodia under Pol Pot?
 
2014-01-19 08:55:43 AM  

Lee451: jchic: When was the last time religion actually improved a country?

I think the Soviet Union is  excellent example of what atheism does to a country. Or China under Mao. Cambodia under Pol Pot?


Yeah cause it was all about the atheism.
 
2014-01-19 08:57:30 AM  

bindlestiff2600: jchic: When was the last time religion actually improved a country?

just sayin
reactionary religion is often the response to the country becoming poor


So, you are saying the progressive policies of "take from those who work and give to those who don't" are leading us to this?
 
2014-01-19 09:10:20 AM  

Bslim: Lee451: jchic: When was the last time religion actually improved a country?

I think the Soviet Union is  excellent example of what atheism does to a country. Or China under Mao. Cambodia under Pol Pot?

Yeah cause it was all about the atheism.


Of cause it wasn't
www.belygorod.rufc02.deviantart.net
 
2014-01-19 09:11:58 AM  

jso2897: subsetzero: Third world dung heap.  Farkem.....

How 'bout we just stand off at a safe distance and watch 'em fark each orther?


We did that in Afghanistan, and we got 9/11.

On the other hand, we did that with the Iran-Iraq War (OK, we helped Saddam a little), and that worked nicely for us. Let 'em beat each other up. Even after they stopped fighting, they had a cold war going on that helped keep Iran in check.

Until some idiot got rid of Saddam.
 
2014-01-19 09:18:34 AM  

quatchi: optikeye: Thanks Regan!

[i293.photobucket.com image 456x372]

You are very welcome!

/Devil made me do it.


Carter was the one who started the policy of arming religious nuts in Afghanistan, Reagan just continued it.
 
2014-01-19 09:19:23 AM  
Funny thing, it's actually the religion of progressivism that Hillary, and her fellow travelers follow that will keep these women under the thumb and cover of the hajib.  Also under the mullahs too.

We will be lectured that this another multicultural event, that the old white,guys will have to learn to live with.

Drag out the Berkeley educated muslim woman with  on MSNBC for glowing commentary on the liberation of submission..
 Sort of the same thing as the millionaire communists living in NYC. Were the go to decoys,rather than interviewing some peasants living under the enlightened rule of the Party.

The threat is not from the tea party, wanting their property taxes lowered or some parents spending quality time teaching their own kids at home.

 ( Otherwise, if the indoctrination is the problem ! Time to close down those Jewish summer camps and other "specialised schools.)  Is Holder looking into the local after school programs at the Mosque ?

Nope! It the self loathing mindset and blind trust in our "historical candidates" that puts all in danger.

PS. I didn't vote for McCain ,and couldn't stand Bush. I would actively work against any Bush or Clinton running for office.
 
2014-01-19 09:20:13 AM  

EmmaLou: While on vacation, I watched a story on AlJazeera about two Afghan women who had been attacked by their husbands. One had her lips and nose cut and was severely beaten, the other was killed and chopped into pieces. The police and everyone knew who committed the crimes, but both husbands are still free. They will likely never face punishment.

WTF? I don't even know what to say about how sick and wrong that is.


That is Farked up, however so is watchin aj aka terrorist.tv.
 
2014-01-19 09:22:59 AM  

EmmaLou: While on vacation, I watched a story on AlJazeera about two Afghan women who had been attacked by their husbands. One had her lips and nose cut and was severely beaten, the other was killed and chopped into pieces. The police and everyone knew who committed the crimes, but both husbands are still free. They will likely never face punishment.

WTF? I don't even know what to say about how sick and wrong that is.


This story brought to you by Religion ® .  Religion, when you need an excuse to do something stupid..

/Actual mileage may vary. Price does not include tax, title, and license. Some assembly required. Each sold separately. Batteries not included. Objects in mirror are closer than they appear. If conditions persist, contact a physician. Keep out of reach of children. Avoid prolonged exposure to direct sunlight. Keep in a cool dark place.
 
2014-01-19 09:25:40 AM  

ghare: Prophet of Loss: Progressive Afghanistan was never a majority which is made of warring fanatical tribes. Sure they saw some progress in major cities, but the majority of the population was never on board.

The smart people always live in the cities, wherever you are.


Most of them do.
So do most of the left-handed people, and most of the tall people, as well as a vast majority of the redheads.
What's your point?

LewDux: Bslim: Lee451: jchic: When was the last time religion actually improved a country?

I think the Soviet Union is  excellent example of what atheism does to a country. Or China under Mao. Cambodia under Pol Pot?

Yeah cause it was all about the atheism.

Of cause it wasn't
[www.belygorod.ru image 400x529][fc02.deviantart.net image 400x319]


So, you are saying that if, over time, Americans were to abandon religion, we would end up living like the Soviets in the thirties? Merely by virtue of having abandoned religion? Interesting theory - I'd be fascinated to hear you attempt to support it.
But I'll bet I won't.
 
2014-01-19 09:30:20 AM  

Lee451: jchic: When was the last time religion actually improved a country?

I think the Soviet Union is  excellent example of what atheism does to a country. Or China under Mao. Cambodia under Pol Pot?


God damn that's some fine, concentrated stupid right there. And I'll bet you thought you were making a valid point, don't you?
 
2014-01-19 09:30:24 AM  

FarkQued: That is Farked up, however so is watchin aj aka terrorist.tv.


galeri3.uludagsozluk.com
 
2014-01-19 09:37:58 AM  

FarkQued: EmmaLou: While on vacation, I watched a story on AlJazeera about two Afghan women who had been attacked by their husbands. One had her lips and nose cut and was severely beaten, the other was killed and chopped into pieces. The police and everyone knew who committed the crimes, but both husbands are still free. They will likely never face punishment.

WTF? I don't even know what to say about how sick and wrong that is.

That is Farked up, however so is watchin aj aka terrorist.tv.


AlJazeera, from what I've seen, is less biased that most American "journalism". It's more like watching an Arabian BBC than an Arabian FOX News.

/of course, you probably think the BBC is part of an evil liberal media conspiracy so I guess I'm not helping
 
2014-01-19 09:40:32 AM  

jso2897: So, you are saying that if, over time, Americans were to abandon religion, we would end up living like the Soviets in the thirties? Merely by virtue of having abandoned religion? Interesting theory - I'd be fascinated to hear you attempt to support it.
But I'll bet I won't.


I'm saying that Soviet Atheism was built on good old religious (excuse my French) memes. Trinity, Third Rome, etc
 
2014-01-19 09:41:17 AM  

LewDux: Bungles: Iraq had world-leading liberal arts universities.... you know, until the US blew them up.

In Iraq under Saddam women could vote in elections


Of course since the Baath party was the only one allowed, voting did't mean much.
 
2014-01-19 09:42:03 AM  

Mentalpatient87: Lee451: jchic: When was the last time religion actually improved a country?

I think the Soviet Union is  excellent example of what atheism does to a country. Or China under Mao. Cambodia under Pol Pot?

God damn that's some fine, concentrated stupid right there. And I'll bet you thought you were making a valid point, don't you?


Name one time when atheism has been made the official policy of a government, and the outcome has NOT been mass slaughter.
 
2014-01-19 09:42:44 AM  

Mentalpatient87: Lee451: jchic: When was the last time religion actually improved a country?

I think the Soviet Union is  excellent example of what atheism does to a country. Or China under Mao. Cambodia under Pol Pot?

God damn that's some fine, concentrated stupid right there. And I'll bet you thought you were making a valid point, don't you?


Be nice, and don't scare him off - I'm trying to explore that issue with him.
I always am interested in what people who believe that communism is somehow and intrinsically "atheist" philosophy construct in their minds to substantiate it.
After all, communism is a definitively concrete philosophy that hangs on a very firm (if utterly and evilly wrong) set of tenets.
Those tenets are equally valid or invalid utterly notwithstanding the existence or nonexistence of God.
Indeed, there have been many devoutly religious socialists and communists in the history of that thankfully failed movement.
Indeed, Ayn Rand's analysis of why religion and statism are utterly compatable stands today as one of the few coherent and defensible ideas hatched from her peculiar mind. Essentially, they are compatible because they both dismiss Man as chattel - the property of some Other.
There is no necessary philosophical incompatibilty  between communism and religion. If one is Stalin or Mao, and wishes to crush any other political or social power other than one's own, one can always invent one.
The only issue that is relevant to us is - what happens if Americans abandon faith? Does no faith = communism, as if they were somehow philosophically opposed, and if you take away the one, you get the other?
I don't think so.
 
2014-01-19 09:46:10 AM  

leevis: quatchi: optikeye: Thanks Regan!

[i293.photobucket.com image 456x372]

You are very welcome!

/Devil made me do it.

Carter was the one who started the policy of arming religious nuts in Afghanistan, Reagan just continued it.


Jimmy "human rights" Carter also protected the murderous Shah of Iran, which is a major reason Iranians hate us.
 
2014-01-19 09:46:59 AM  

LewDux: jso2897: So, you are saying that if, over time, Americans were to abandon religion, we would end up living like the Soviets in the thirties? Merely by virtue of having abandoned religion? Interesting theory - I'd be fascinated to hear you attempt to support it.
But I'll bet I won't.

I'm saying that Soviet Atheism was built on good old religious (excuse my French) memes. Trinity, Third Rome, etc


Yeah. Couldn't have had anything to do with Stalin being acutely paranoid and wanting to eleiminate anyone who had any power or influence he couldn't completely control.
Because communists are honest people, and always give their true reasons for doing things.
 
2014-01-19 09:48:21 AM  

Tyrone Slothrop: LewDux: Bungles: Iraq had world-leading liberal arts universities.... you know, until the US blew them up.

In Iraq under Saddam women could vote in elections

Of course since the Baath party was the only one allowed, voting did't mean much.


"Lenin's widow, Krupskaya was telling a class of Soviet schoolchildren what a kind man Lenin had been. 
"One day ", she said, "he was standing outside his dacha shaving himself with a bowl of water and an open razor. A little boy came to watch him and asked him what he was doing. "I'm, shaving little boy", Lenin said"
 
2014-01-19 09:48:24 AM  

Bslim: Lee451: jchic: When was the last time religion actually improved a country?

I think the Soviet Union is  excellent example of what atheism does to a country. Or China under Mao. Cambodia under Pol Pot?

Yeah cause it was all about the atheism.


Funny, your use of the word "all". No, those regimes were not ALL about atheism, any more than (as has been pointed out in this thread) the situation in Afghanistan is ALL about Islam. But it takes a special kind of willful myopia combined with all-or-nothing simplemindedness to pretend that the existence of one factor means that we can ignore another factor when explaining a situation.
 
2014-01-19 09:49:58 AM  
During the Soviet era, the armed forces wore dress uniform hats tghat were quite large. You can see the same style echoed in the North Korean military still, today.
I therefore conclude that big hats are an essential and indispensible feature of Communist philosophy, and that communism can't be communism without big hats.
 
2014-01-19 09:55:22 AM  
So pictures of attractive women are proof of the presence and absence of a patriarchy.
 
2014-01-19 09:57:36 AM  

jso2897: During the Soviet era, the armed forces wore dress uniform hats tghat were quite large. You can see the same style echoed in the North Korean military still, today.
I therefore conclude that big hats are an essential and indispensible feature of Communist philosophy, and that communism can't be communism without big hats.


Compare the number of people imprisoned and killed by those regimes for wearing small hats to the number imprisoned and killed for being religious, then get back to us with your theory.
 
2014-01-19 09:57:55 AM  

Son of Thunder: Mentalpatient87: Lee451: jchic: When was the last time religion actually improved a country?

I think the Soviet Union is  excellent example of what atheism does to a country. Or China under Mao. Cambodia under Pol Pot?

God damn that's some fine, concentrated stupid right there. And I'll bet you thought you were making a valid point, don't you?

Name one time when atheism has been made the official policy of a government, and the outcome has NOT been mass slaughter.


New governments generally do away with opposition or indigenous population one way or another.  Britain and Rome raped, slaughtered, and pillaged their way across continents.
 
2014-01-19 10:01:36 AM  

lordjupiter: So pictures of attractive women are proof of the presence and absence of a patriarchy.


Wow.
 
2014-01-19 10:05:58 AM  

Son of Thunder: Bslim: Lee451: jchic: When was the last time religion actually improved a country?

I think the Soviet Union is  excellent example of what atheism does to a country. Or China under Mao. Cambodia under Pol Pot?

Yeah cause it was all about the atheism.

Funny, your use of the word "all". No, those regimes were not ALL about atheism, any more than (as has been pointed out in this thread) the situation in Afghanistan is ALL about Islam. But it takes a special kind of willful myopia combined with all-or-nothing simplemindedness to pretend that the existence of one factor means that we can ignore another factor when explaining a situation.


Okay, why don't you explain it, chief.
 
2014-01-19 10:10:28 AM  

bigworld2000: Throughout 1978 and 1979, the communists in charge of Afghanistan tried to extend the idea of women's rights out into the countryside and set up literacy schools for rural Afghan women. This is what really freaked out the Mujahadeen and the mullahs, who attacked the schools and killed many of the students and teachers.  That's when the government in Kabul called in the Soviets, who sent in their military to quell the fundamentalists at the end of December 1979.

"The Communists were trying to change the law of God. They wanted to destroy
Islamic traditions -- to rid Afghanistan of poverty and make everyone
equal. This is against the law of Islam -- God has decided who is rich
and who is poor. It can't be changed by Communists. It's beyond
imagination."
Sahar Gul, Mullah Laghman Province (CNN Cold War: Soldiers of God, 1998)


One of the Soviet rationales for the invasion was to enforce their widespread distribution of foodstuffs, such as flour, using ideas that superseded the cultural trade norms. There were parts of the northeastern provinces that would regularly have local famines because they didn't get regular rain and the Mullahs used food shortages as a means to maintain the warlord feudal state. They just wouldn't trade with their enemies, and allies that did, would be denounced or attacked.

It was common for one village to block streams and hoard the water, thereby robbing the folks downstream of a means to water their crops. It was also common to raid grain storage of neighboring Clans and swipe it. The feud was a major part of their culture and some had been maintained for centuries. They relied entirely on streams to water crops and their animals. When those streams dried up the common belief was that someone upstream was blocking it and hoarding it. It was probably true more often than not. Water warfare was common in rural Afghanistan and Pakistan.

The Mullahs couldn't deal with the fact that a well-fed population wasn't so obedient to them if they could not control the food supplies that did exist when things got bad, because everyone had to support them, which basically means the Mullahs were hoarding food. they always ate well, even as the folks in their local districts would often be short of food. This was pointed out to the local folks by the Soviets. This had the effect of reducing the motives for the feuds that the Mullahs had carefully maintained for millennia over water rights. The warrior culture was the dominant paradigm in the rural, tribal areas before the communists took over and promptly started robbing the richer folks in the cities.

It's a simple thing to piss off an entire culture, when you start forcing the rich folks to pay attention to the poor folks, especially the farmers that kept their bellies full.
 
2014-01-19 10:12:37 AM  

jaylectricity: This could never happen in America.

www.neebo.com

 
2014-01-19 10:13:12 AM  

Son of Thunder: jchic: When was the last time religion actually improved a country?

Inventing science.
Creating the first modern university.
Abolitionism.
First-wave feminism.
Civil rights Movement.

You're welcome.


You left out irrigated agriculture and other large public works.
 
2014-01-19 10:13:46 AM  

jso2897: LewDux: jso2897: So, you are saying that if, over time, Americans were to abandon religion, we would end up living like the Soviets in the thirties? Merely by virtue of having abandoned religion? Interesting theory - I'd be fascinated to hear you attempt to support it.
But I'll bet I won't.

I'm saying that Soviet Atheism was built on good old religious (excuse my French) memes. Trinity, Third Rome, etc

Yeah. Couldn't have had anything to do with Stalin being acutely paranoid and wanting to eleiminate anyone who had any power or influence he couldn't completely control.
Because communists are honest people, and always give their true reasons for doing things.


Instead of inventing wheel, ever-practical (compared to ore idealistic Lenin) Stalin repainted old one. He also used Church to control believers instead of eliminating it. There's old Soviet joke about Orthodox Pope who refused to borrow chairs for important Party celebration, until local Party head threatened to expel him from party.
/Link

Link
 
2014-01-19 10:15:19 AM  

Bslim: Son of Thunder: Bslim: Lee451: jchic: When was the last time religion actually improved a country?

I think the Soviet Union is  excellent example of what atheism does to a country. Or China under Mao. Cambodia under Pol Pot?

Yeah cause it was all about the atheism.

Funny, your use of the word "all". No, those regimes were not ALL about atheism, any more than (as has been pointed out in this thread) the situation in Afghanistan is ALL about Islam. But it takes a special kind of willful myopia combined with all-or-nothing simplemindedness to pretend that the existence of one factor means that we can ignore another factor when explaining a situation.

Okay, why don't you explain it, chief.


Shall I teach you the entire Torah while you stand on one foot while I'm at it?
 
2014-01-19 10:28:13 AM  

twomutts: jaylectricity: This could never happen in America.

[www.neebo.com image 450x697]


Came here to post "Handmaid's Tale" but the job was already done. Thanks.
 
2014-01-19 10:32:01 AM  

hubiestubert: But it is understandable. Like Chris Rock said, "you gotta look at OJ's situation. He's paying $25,000 a month in alimony, got another man driving around in his car and f*cking his wife in a house he's still paying the mortgage on. Now I'm not saying he should have killed her... but I understand."


Don't even post that shiat, hubie, not even as an aside. That quote right there is the reason I farking hate Chris Rock. Somebody understands how a person could kill their ex? That's funny? That's not a joke, not in any goddamn universe anywhere. That's pathetic. She wasn't his wife anymore, she didn't get that kind of money from him, and they were divorced. Whatever she did with her life after that was HER LIFE. Unless, of course, you see things like OJ Simpson did.

My ex said that very thing to me after I left him--"Now I understand how people murder their exes"--and I assure you, it is never a joke.
Now you all carry on with your Afghanistan flamewar, I'm out of here.
 
2014-01-19 10:36:00 AM  

Son of Thunder: Shall I teach you the entire Torah while you stand on one foot while I'm at it?


Ah, yes... the argument that another's interpretation of a purely interpretive doctrine is irrelevant because you don't personally interpret it that way.
 
2014-01-19 10:36:39 AM  

Son of Thunder: jchic: When was the last time religion actually improved a country?

Inventing science.
Creating the first modern university.
Abolitionism.
First-wave feminism.
Civil rights Movement.

You're welcome.


CITATIONS NEEDED.
 
2014-01-19 10:36:43 AM  

Son of Thunder: jchic: When was the last time religion actually improved a country?

Inventing science.
Creating the first modern university.
Abolitionism.
First-wave feminism.
Civil rights Movement.

You're welcome.


Religion didn't invent science... Science was 'invented' when religion, philosophy, and superstition were disentangled from explanations about things.

The first 'modern university' taught religion, medicine, and engineering. It wasn't created by religion, it was created by society to teach the things that were important to them at the time (which included more than religion).

Abolitionism was not a product of religion either. Some religious groups did choose to believe that slavery was against their beliefs, but largely the cause of abolitionism was carried by humanist ideals, not religious ones.

First-wave feminism was not a religious movement nor was it created by religion. There were many women and men who inspired first wave feminism and not one of them cited religion as the reason.

Finally the Civil Rights Movement was also not a product of religion. It was a movement by various people from various places that decided that equal rights were important to them and that they were willing to engage in non-violent civil demonstration in order to obtain those rights.

Just because you're a fan of religion doesn't mean you can attribute things to religion that have no basis in fact. None of the things you listed were things that religion gave to society... not one of them. If you want to improve people's opinions about how religion has improved society, you might try to stop lying about it. You're hurting your cause more than you're helping it.
 
2014-01-19 10:37:52 AM  
www.legitgov.org
 
2014-01-19 10:40:00 AM  

T-Boy: A lot of self-loathing in this thread. Perhaps you should travel to the Middle East and walk around appologizing. Don't call the embassy when you make your spiritual connection with your fellow peace loving friends.


You're confusing self-loathing with a recognition that overthrowing a nation's elected government and propping up a dictator and his secret police doesn't make the inhabitants automatically love you.

Your post probably says more about you than you intended.
 
2014-01-19 10:42:53 AM  

Bungles: Iraq had world-leading liberal arts universities.... you know, until the US blew them up.


Funnied, that's a good one.
 
2014-01-19 10:43:02 AM  

EmmaLou: While on vacation, I watched a story on AlJazeera about two Afghan women who had been attacked by their husbands. One had her lips and nose cut and was severely beaten, the other was killed and chopped into pieces. The police and everyone knew who committed the crimes, but both husbands are still free. They will likely never face punishment.

WTF? I don't even know what to say about how sick and wrong that is.


Clearly they are acting in a way that shamed the husbands and were treated in the way Allah prescribes.
 
2014-01-19 10:45:23 AM  

Dr.Mxyzptlk.: Funny thing, it's actually the religion of progressivism that Hillary, and her fellow travelers follow that will keep these women under the thumb and cover of the hajib.  Also under the mullahs too.

We will be lectured that this another multicultural event, that the old white,guys will have to learn to live with.

Drag out the Berkeley educated muslim woman with  on MSNBC for glowing commentary on the liberation of submission..
 Sort of the same thing as the millionaire communists living in NYC. Were the go to decoys,rather than interviewing some peasants living under the enlightened rule of the Party.

The threat is not from the tea party, wanting their property taxes lowered or some parents spending quality time teaching their own kids at home.

 ( Otherwise, if the indoctrination is the problem ! Time to close down those Jewish summer camps and other "specialised schools.)  Is Holder looking into the local after school programs at the Mosque ?

Nope! It the self loathing mindset and blind trust in our "historical candidates" that puts all in danger.

PS. I didn't vote for McCain ,and couldn't stand Bush. I would actively work against any Bush or Clinton running for office.


Why would you possibly think anyone cares?
 
2014-01-19 10:46:32 AM  

Dr.Mxyzptlk.: Funny thing, it's actually the religion of progressivismthat Hillary, and her fellow travelers follow that will keep these women under the thumb and cover of the hajib.  Also under the mullahs too.


Show us on the doll where Woodrow Wilson touched you.
 
2014-01-19 10:47:43 AM  

LewDux: Bungles: Iraq had world-leading liberal arts universities.... you know, until the US blew them up.

In Iraq under Saddam women could vote in elections


That's impressive, you've clearly done your research.
 
2014-01-19 10:50:14 AM  
There's nothing in that country that I give two shiats about except for the blood of my fellow citizens.

The rest of the country can go fark itself.
 
2014-01-19 10:50:55 AM  

DrPainMD: Lsherm: So appeasement?  That's your answer?

Starting your argument with a buzz-word meant to create negativity based on nothing other than the buzz-word is not going to get you very far. It's like using the word "denier" in a climate change thread... you lose all credibility the second you say it.

I agree we've created a rabid dog in multiple points the world over, but letting it run free isn't a solution.

Umm... we ARE the rabid dog.

Caging it, paying off its offspring with food and then killing the older generation is the only thing that's going to let us move forward.

If you let the offended run things, they're correctly going to bite that which attacked them.  That dog has to be put down, but the next generation can learn that there's good to be had by cooperating.

Would that work if a foreign country did to us what we've done to them? Would YOU cooperate with them? Me, I'd learn how to build a remote-controlled bomb and set it by the side of the road, waiting for them to drive by. And I'd also kill any Americans who cooperated with them. Unlike  hubiestubert, I think that their terrorism and attempts at terrorism is totally justified... how else can you fight an enemy that is 100 years more technologically advanced and has 10,000 times the money to wage war with? You wouldn't box by the rules if you fought Joe Frazier in his prime, would you?


So it's ok to blow up people who you feel have slighted you? I'm just trying to understand the way the left thinks.
 
2014-01-19 10:51:02 AM  

GilRuiz1: jchic: When was the last time religion actually improved a country?


Perhaps it is worth considering why this atheist author at richarddawkins.net argues that only Christianity can save Africa.


From your link:  "Now a confirmed atheist, I've become convinced of the enormous contribution that Christian evangelism makes in Africa"

Stopped reading right there.

Bet he's not even a real atheist; 'lying for the lord' is standard doctrine for religious whackjobs.  Note how he ignores evangelist "contributions" like getting laws passed in Africa that imprison and execute people for even DISCUSSING homosexuality.

Fark him.
 
2014-01-19 10:52:36 AM  

jaybeezey: DrPainMD: Lsherm: So appeasement?  That's your answer?

Starting your argument with a buzz-word meant to create negativity based on nothing other than the buzz-word is not going to get you very far. It's like using the word "denier" in a climate change thread... you lose all credibility the second you say it.

I agree we've created a rabid dog in multiple points the world over, but letting it run free isn't a solution.

Umm... we ARE the rabid dog.

Caging it, paying off its offspring with food and then killing the older generation is the only thing that's going to let us move forward.

If you let the offended run things, they're correctly going to bite that which attacked them.  That dog has to be put down, but the next generation can learn that there's good to be had by cooperating.

Would that work if a foreign country did to us what we've done to them? Would YOU cooperate with them? Me, I'd learn how to build a remote-controlled bomb and set it by the side of the road, waiting for them to drive by. And I'd also kill any Americans who cooperated with them. Unlike  hubiestubert, I think that their terrorism and attempts at terrorism is totally justified... how else can you fight an enemy that is 100 years more technologically advanced and has 10,000 times the money to wage war with? You wouldn't box by the rules if you fought Joe Frazier in his prime, would you?

So it's ok to blow up people who you feel have slighted you? I'm just trying to understand the way the left thinks.


Overthrowing an elected government and killing people is a "slight"?

I'm just trying to understand how YOU think.
 
2014-01-19 10:53:18 AM  

sixfoot: Mr. Coffee Nerves: Here in America those who'd happily run the country Taliban-style just start their own universities
http://www.bju.edu/life-faith/student-handbook.pdf

Thanks for posting this. "BJ"U is not nearly as fun as it sounds.

/They produce homeschool curriculum for k through 12 too.
//Actively against scientific theory
///They don't like Catholics if I remember right. (nothing better than factionalized Christianity)

Had a couple of years exposure to the home school shiat. Farked up.


The Religious Right and Religious Left have usually looked at each other with contempt. That's not news.
 
2014-01-19 11:04:10 AM  

fusillade762: Fark It: Iran was like this before the Ayatollah.

And Iraq was pretty similar before US sanctions took full effect. Then of course the invasion shot everything to hell.

Why women are less free 10 years after the invasion of Iraq

[3.bp.blogspot.com image 300x229]

Iraqi women at university in Iraq in the 1970s


Got any pics from 1995?
 
2014-01-19 11:07:17 AM  

hubiestubert: The anger in these countries isn't about our freedoms. It isn't about our faith.


B..b..but how do we keep people in the US outraged and fearful if it isn't about these things?
 
2014-01-19 11:07:57 AM  

phrawgh: [bluecollarchronicle.com image 576x576]


alegriaonline.files.wordpress.com

I think our problem is primarily a spiritual one... Where there is no Jesus evil always reigns
. - Phill Robertson
 
2014-01-19 11:12:09 AM  
cryingoutloud


Chris Rock is a third-rate Eddie Murphy impersonator......
 
2014-01-19 11:26:36 AM  
www.barenakedislam.com
Damned if you do, damned if you don't.
 
2014-01-19 11:28:42 AM  

Bungles: Iraq had world-leading liberal arts universities.... you know, until the US blew them up.


Thats what they get for stealing our oil and putting it under their land! Damn commies!
 
2014-01-19 11:32:34 AM  

jaybeezey: Would that work if a foreign country did to us what we've done to them? Would YOU cooperate with them? Me, I'd learn how to build a remote-controlled bomb and set it by the side of the road, waiting for them to drive by. And I'd also kill any Americans who cooperated with them. Unlike hubiestubert, I think that their terrorism and attempts at terrorism is totally justified... how else can you fight an enemy that is 100 years more technologically advanced and has 10,000 times the money to wage war with? You wouldn't box by the rules if you fought Joe Frazier in his prime, would you?

So it's ok to blow up people who you feel have slighted you? I'm just trying to understand the way the left thinks.


So, if a technologically advanced alien force invaded the US, eliminated the duly elected government and setup their own puppet government. Then used that government to exploit the US for their own benefit, while farking over the population. You would be doing what? Working with the aliens to help fark over your fellow Americans? Or would you be part of the resistance?

Because that's essentially how the people in the countries the US has farked around with view it. To a lot of them, working with the US government is equivalent to being a collaborator in France in WWII.
 
2014-01-19 11:37:49 AM  

Son of Thunder: jso2897: During the Soviet era, the armed forces wore dress uniform hats tghat were quite large. You can see the same style echoed in the North Korean military still, today.
I therefore conclude that big hats are an essential and indispensible feature of Communist philosophy, and that communism can't be communism without big hats.

Compare the number of people imprisoned and killed by those regimes for wearing small hats to the number imprisoned and killed for being religious, then get back to us with your theory.


Categorize people by any means you like - and you will find that Stalin killed vast quantities of any category of people you'd care to name. You can single out religious people because you think it serves your argument, but it's a meaningless distinction of your own manufacture.
Just like my meaningless distinction of big hats. Short version - you missed the point. I was making an example of a bad argument - not an argument.
 
2014-01-19 11:55:46 AM  
Really this all started with Sumerian.   If they had never created the first city none of this would have never have happened damn it!
 
2014-01-19 11:59:07 AM  
OscarTamerz: ...Nobody ever remembers Hitler was democratically elected.

I'm pretty sure that comes up quite a bit every time somebody loses an election.
 
2014-01-19 12:02:16 PM  

PunGent: Dr.Mxyzptlk.: Funny thing, it's actually the religion of progressivismthat Hillary, and her fellow travelers follow that will keep these women under the thumb and cover of the hajib.  Also under the mullahs too.

Show us on the doll where Woodrow Wilson touched you.


I clicked the 'Funny' button six times but it only gave me credit for one, damnit!
 
2014-01-19 12:07:38 PM  

cryinoutloud: hubiestubert: But it is understandable. Like Chris Rock said, "you gotta look at OJ's situation. He's paying $25,000 a month in alimony, got another man driving around in his car and f*cking his wife in a house he's still paying the mortgage on. Now I'm not saying he should have killed her... but I understand."

Don't even post that shiat, hubie, not even as an aside. That quote right there is the reason I farking hate Chris Rock. Somebody understands how a person could kill their ex? That's funny? That's not a joke, not in any goddamn universe anywhere. That's pathetic. She wasn't his wife anymore, she didn't get that kind of money from him, and they were divorced. Whatever she did with her life after that was HER LIFE. Unless, of course, you see things like OJ Simpson did.

My ex said that very thing to me after I left him--"Now I understand how people murder their exes"--and I assure you, it is never a joke.
Now you all carry on with your Afghanistan flamewar, I'm out of here.


Understanding the source of anger is the first step to overcoming it. Justification is built up to give it vent, but you have to understand the source before you can get over that hill and deal with the real issues. Understanding the source of anger isn't justifying it, or accepting the results as justified. We can't afford to NOT understand where the anger comes from in these cases. Not in the Middle East, not in divorce court either. Too often we ignore the sources of folk's feelings of slight, how they feel they've been thwarted, or wronged, and that often leads folks to feel that they have to take matters into their own hands. It makes things worse to not acknowledge where the anger comes from.

jaybeezey: DrPainMD: Would that work if a foreign country did to us what we've done to them? Would YOU cooperate with them? Me, I'd learn how to build a remote-controlled bomb and set it by the side of the road, waiting for them to drive by. And I'd also kill any Americans who cooperated with them. Unlike  hubiestubert, I think that their terrorism and attempts at terrorism is totally justified... how else can you fight an enemy that is 100 years more technologically advanced and has 10,000 times the money to wage war with? You wouldn't box by the rules if you fought Joe Frazier in his prime, would you?

So it's ok to blow up people who you feel have slighted you? I'm just trying to understand the way the left thinks.


There are worse things going on in these countries than them fighting us. Jihadists kill more Muslims than foreigners. By far. Between the practice of declaration of takfir--declaration of infidel status, and often by a layman as opposed to an Imam--and just the internal power struggles, and just plain thuggery to keep power, these folks are doing a damn fine job at keeping their countries divided and expending a lot of time, effort, and ammunition terrorizing one another. That's our legacy in Iraq and Afghanistan. That is part of why we need to do more to engage these populations, and fix the wrong we've done them, because our efforts have set them against not just us, not just against foreign interests, but deepened divides within their nations to the point where they are perfectly willing to exterminate one another, and for incredibly short term gain.

Most of the folks in these countries just want to get on with their lives. Unfortunately, they've got a lot of neighbors who have guns, who have their sights set on righting wrongs, and grabbing as much stuff as they can to line their own pockets, and remake the country in an image that sounds really cool on paper, but maybe hasn't been thought through very well. Or worse, they've thought through it, and said, "Yeah, I'm good with this sh*tty situation, because I'mma get paid." That we helped slide a lot of those guns into their hands makes it our issue. That we inspired folks to slide guns into their hands, that makes it our issue. The best way to deal with the insurgents, has been to engage the population. To help make their lives better, directly. To show them respect, respect their traditions, and actually BE in their neighborhoods, along side them. To help them rebuild, to help them reform, to give them something other than just aid money--which often gets siphoned off long before it hits the neighborhoods--but to help them foster an atmosphere where they can build something other than just brick and mortar. Folks need economic opportunities. They need safe neighborhoods, clear of thugs who are just looking for an easy payday, and live out their fantasies of fighting "the West."

We have to engage folks, not just in a tactical fashion, and shoot motherf*ckers, but to help them build more, to forge their own plans, and to help them defend it from the opportunistic bastiches both from the West, and the thugs who see opportunity rising from aid coming in--and the factionalistic bastiches who see opportunity to get some payback for grief years ago.

I understand the drive to just want to level sh*t, because that's easier than the real job.
 
2014-01-19 12:14:09 PM  

fusillade762: Fark It: Iran was like this before the Ayatollah.

And Iraq was pretty similar before US sanctions took full effect. Then of course the invasion shot everything to hell.

Why women are less free 10 years after the invasion of Iraq



Iraqi women at university in Iraq in the 1970s


Came in here to say this.
 
2014-01-19 12:32:37 PM  

Lee451: jchic: When was the last time religion actually improved a country?

I think the Soviet Union is  excellent example of what atheism does to a country. Or China under Mao. Cambodia under Pol Pot?


So then Hitler is an excellent example of what religion does?
 
2014-01-19 12:34:06 PM  
The predominantly Christian west has created a society where people are treated much more fairly. We chastise the imperialism, but when we learn what the alternative is is most of the world it is horrific, oppressive and really abusive to the dignity of people. Sounds good to let Muslims spread throughout the world, but look what they do when in power. It makes the inquisitions and the ongoing guillotine of the French "enlightenment"  seem like two 7 years in a slap fight. Time to look at the whole historical truth and not the narrative predominantly taught.
 
2014-01-19 12:37:09 PM  

Lee451: bindlestiff2600: jchic: When was the last time religion actually improved a country?

just sayin
reactionary religion is often the response to the country becoming poor

So, you are saying the progressive policies of "take from those who work and give to those who don't" are leading us to this?


The last time we had an economic crisis like this, progressive policies gave us the WPA and CCC and jobs.
So tell us, where are the martherfarking jobs, farkwit?

/Of course, they also made income taxes far more progressive and instituted programs to take care of our own.
//When did screwing our own people become OK?
///I'll give you hints: The Birchers allied with evangelicals. Rhymes with Bouthern Grategy. Saint Ron (F-CA).
 
2014-01-19 12:41:46 PM  

Lsherm: hubiestubert: Iran. Iraq. Afghanistan. All of these countries have legitimate beefs with US foreign policy, and the meddling in their affairs. Iran was one of the most progressive democracies in the Middle East before the US, Great Britain and BP helped engineer a return of the Shah. Iraq wasn't as progressive, but was on track, until it ran afoul of US interests. Afghanistan had its issues, but between the Soviets and the American interest in their nation, and our backing folks with a LOT of munitions, with NO assistance once they ousted the Soviets, yeah, the Taliban went to work on whipping things into shape as they saw fit.

The anger in these countries isn't about our freedoms. It isn't about our faith. It isn't about Israel even--though in part, keeping these nations rife with internal struggles and under the thumb of theocrats without much interest in actually building or educating their people in a modern sense IS in Israel's interests--it's about actions. Actions that have impacted their nations fair severely.

Until we understand this, we aren't going to make any headway. At some point, WE need to apologize and try to set things right. Not by imposing MOAR sanctions, not by demanding compliant leadership, not by tearing down their governments, but by helping them achieve their own goals, and help them back into the circle of nations, and not just by shipping oil out, or letting contractors in.

These nations are the way they are today, because of things we did. To them. Years ago. Direct actions. Actions through intermediaries to give us "deniability." Actions that set their nations back generations. We did this, and the anger is real, and it is even justified.

Does this mean that the support of terrorism is just? Nope. But it is understandable. Like Chris Rock said, "you gotta look at OJ's situation. He's paying $25,000 a month in alimony, got another man driving around in his car and f*cking his wife in a house he's still paying the mortgage on. Now I'm not saying he ...

So appeasement?  That's your answer?

I agree we've created a rabid dog in multiple points the world over, but letting it run free isn't a solution.  Caging it, paying off its offspring with food and then killing the older generation is the only thing that's going to let us move forward.

If you let the offended run things, they're correctly going to bite that which attacked them.  That dog has to be put down, but the next generation can learn that there's good to be had by cooperating.


What is being spoken of really is not a hard concept to grasp. Stop being d*cks to people abroad, and you will find after some time that you have fewer enemies.

some people like to say things like america views itself as the worlds police. If that is the case than it would be in americas best interest to stay out of other countries domestic disputes.

lets face it everybody knows when you get in the middle of a domestic squabble the odds of them both turning on you are pretty good.


these days I think of america as being like an international version of george zimmerman, in that it likes to pick fights and escalate them. Afterwards claiming to be the victim in the situation. Most sane people dont really buy that shiat.
 
2014-01-19 12:43:01 PM  

Son of Thunder: Bslim: Son of Thunder: Bslim: Lee451: jchic: When was the last time religion actually improved a country?

I think the Soviet Union is  excellent example of what atheism does to a country. Or China under Mao. Cambodia under Pol Pot?

Yeah cause it was all about the atheism.

Funny, your use of the word "all". No, those regimes were not ALL about atheism, any more than (as has been pointed out in this thread) the situation in Afghanistan is ALL about Islam. But it takes a special kind of willful myopia combined with all-or-nothing simplemindedness to pretend that the existence of one factor means that we can ignore another factor when explaining a situation.

Okay, why don't you explain it, chief.

Shall I teach you the entire Torah while you stand on one foot while I'm at it?


The rest is commentary.
Now go and learn it.

/Education is incomplete without contemplation and review and discussion.
//And, on extremely rare occasions, Shammai's clue-by-four.
 
2014-01-19 12:43:41 PM  

jchic: When was the last time religion actually improved a country?


Most of those people in those photographs were already Muslim.

The problem with your statement is that the Taliban is not simply an example of religion, but rather religion combined with ultra-nationalist politics and xenophobic paranoia. Equating all faith to extremist fundamentalism oversimplifies the issues and makes you dumb.

But to answer your question, I'll refer you to Patton Oswalt.
 
2014-01-19 12:46:23 PM  

HindiDiscoMonster: Bslim: Now it's a religious paradise. Hopefully that enlightment will come to America.

The problems ther go far beyond religion. They were caused by a rabid dog (USA), the Soviets, The Brits, and associated allies, as well as spycraft in general... rplacing legit regimes with puppets.

[img203.imageshack.us image 360x307]
/We meddle, and we haven't the right to.
//Serenity shows a great example of a govt run amok... just like ours.


Hahahahah! HAHAHAHAHA!  (takes a breath)  OMG, the stunning naivete ...  Hahahahahah!!  Serenity is a fabulous movie but you're conflating History to the point of making pretzels. The Nations are a symptom of an underlying evil.

www.heliosderm.com

Besides Afghanistan's nearly 7,000 year history, the recent troubles are a mere two words in a thirty page book, but if you  really want to know the root cause of today's troubles   go here  and get a small, small taste of how the Democrat Party controls Washington and where their money comes from. The great shipping magnate families of the Northeast. These opium warlords control your nation and mine to this day. If you think for even a moment they got out of a business where money and power quite literally grows on plants, you've got a lot of maturing to do.
 
2014-01-19 01:00:15 PM  

JohnnyC: The first 'modern university' taught religion, medicine, and engineering. It wasn't created by religion, it was created by society to teach the things that were important to them at the time (which included more than religion).


What university is this? The oldest I know of is the University of Bologna, founded by students in 1088 to study Roman law.
 
2014-01-19 01:07:53 PM  

Gordon Bennett: JohnnyC: The first 'modern university' taught religion, medicine, and engineering. It wasn't created by religion, it was created by society to teach the things that were important to them at the time (which included more than religion).

What university is this? The oldest I know of is the University of Bologna, founded by students in 1088 to study Roman law.


I *think* he was referring to the institutes of higher learning in places like ancient Greece.
 
2014-01-19 01:08:43 PM  

miscreant: jaybeezey: Would that work if a foreign country did to us what we've done to them? Would YOU cooperate with them? Me, I'd learn how to build a remote-controlled bomb and set it by the side of the road, waiting for them to drive by. And I'd also kill any Americans who cooperated with them. Unlike hubiestubert, I think that their terrorism and attempts at terrorism is totally justified... how else can you fight an enemy that is 100 years more technologically advanced and has 10,000 times the money to wage war with? You wouldn't box by the rules if you fought Joe Frazier in his prime, would you?

So it's ok to blow up people who you feel have slighted you? I'm just trying to understand the way the left thinks.

So, if a technologically advanced alien force invaded the US, eliminated the duly elected government and setup their own puppet government. Then used that government to exploit the US for their own benefit, while farking over the population. You would be doing what? Working with the aliens to help fark over your fellow Americans? Or would you be part of the resistance?

Because that's essentially how the people in the countries the US has farked around with view it. To a lot of them, working with the US government is equivalent to being a collaborator in France in WWII.


This is nothing new in history. All nations that become super powers do this.  Its been done for a long long long time.  That is how they stay on top.  It doesnt last forever but you can make it last a long time.
 
2014-01-19 01:13:48 PM  

Hickory-smoked: jchic: When was the last time religion actually improved a country?

Most of those people in those photographs were already Muslim.

The problem with your statement is that the Taliban is not simply an example of religion, but rather religion combined with ultra-nationalist politics and xenophobic paranoia. Equating all faith to extremist fundamentalism oversimplifies the issues and makes you dumb.

But to answer your question, I'll refer you to Patton Oswalt.


img2.imagesbn.com

One of the best critiques and examinations of the drive towards Fundamentalism in ALL of the People of the Book put to pen for a long while. Fundamentalism coupled with nationalism is not a feature of Islam alone, and that's something that a lot of folks forget. When you couple nationalism with Fundamentalism you get folks who equate their national interests with the backing of God, and thus, anyone who opposes you is opposing the Will and the Word, and that makes it for damn sure easy to ignore a lot of folk's right to exist. Be that Christian, Jewish or Muslims. And that is what we face, along side thugs and opportunists who simply borrow the trappings so that they can cage more sh*t from those who don't have the access to guns that they do.
 
2014-01-19 01:19:10 PM  

hubiestubert: Hickory-smoked: jchic: When was the last time religion actually improved a country?

Most of those people in those photographs were already Muslim.

The problem with your statement is that the Taliban is not simply an example of religion, but rather religion combined with ultra-nationalist politics and xenophobic paranoia. Equating all faith to extremist fundamentalism oversimplifies the issues and makes you dumb.

But to answer your question, I'll refer you to Patton Oswalt.

[img2.imagesbn.com image 255x392]

One of the best critiques and examinations of the drive towards Fundamentalism in ALL of the People of the Book put to pen for a long while. Fundamentalism coupled with nationalism is not a feature of Islam alone, and that's something that a lot of folks forget. When you couple nationalism with Fundamentalism you get folks who equate their national interests with the backing of God, and thus, anyone who opposes you is opposing the Will and the Word, and that makes it for damn sure easy to ignore a lot of folk's right to exist. Be that Christian, Jewish or Muslims. And that is what we face, along side thugs and opportunists who simply borrow the trappings so that they can cage more sh*t from those who don't have the access to guns that they do.


img.fark.net

So the sooner this guy comes to power the sooner that regions stop fighting each other?
 
2014-01-19 01:19:43 PM  

scroufus: So, if a technologically advanced alien force invaded the US, eliminated the duly elected government and setup their own puppet government. Then used that government to exploit the US for their own benefit, while farking over the population. You would be doing what? Working with the aliens to help fark over your fellow Americans? Or would you be part of the resistance?


OK, genius, why aren't you out killing the Lizardmen Republicans?
One of those aliens derailed the government and almost pushed the global economy over the brink.
Again.
 
2014-01-19 01:21:44 PM  

demaL-demaL-yeH: scroufus: So, if a technologically advanced alien force invaded the US, eliminated the duly elected government and setup their own puppet government. Then used that government to exploit the US for their own benefit, while farking over the population. You would be doing what? Working with the aliens to help fark over your fellow Americans? Or would you be part of the resistance?

OK, genius, why aren't you out killing the Lizardmen Republicans?
One of those aliens derailed the government and almost pushed the global economy over the brink.
Again.


I didnt write that
 
2014-01-19 01:22:34 PM  
Its going to be a sad day when that Afghani girl goes back to her homeland and the Taliban get around to burning her at the stake and show it on youtube.  The only thing we should be building in the middle east is a concrete dome over it all.
 
2014-01-19 01:25:46 PM  

scroufus: demaL-demaL-yeH: scroufus: So, if a technologically advanced alien force invaded the US, eliminated the duly elected government and setup their own puppet government. Then used that government to exploit the US for their own benefit, while farking over the population. You would be doing what? Working with the aliens to help fark over your fellow Americans? Or would you be part of the resistance?

OK, genius, why aren't you out killing the Lizardmen Republicans?
One of those aliens derailed the government and almost pushed the global economy over the brink.
Again.

I didnt write that


I see. Apologies for whatever the fark it is that happened there.
/What did happen?
 
2014-01-19 01:30:15 PM  

orclover: Its going to be a sad day when that Afghani girl goes back to her homeland and the Taliban get around to burning her at the stake and show it on youtube.  The only thing we should be building in the middle east is a concrete dome over it all.


what are you 12 or 60?
 
2014-01-19 01:31:29 PM  

grumpfuff: Gordon Bennett: JohnnyC: The first 'modern university' taught religion, medicine, and engineering. It wasn't created by religion, it was created by society to teach the things that were important to them at the time (which included more than religion).

What university is this? The oldest I know of is the University of Bologna, founded by students in 1088 to study Roman law.

I *think* he was referring to the institutes of higher learning in places like ancient Greece.


You are correct. I was referring to the The Platonic Academy (387 BC) in ancient Greece. I think the oldest, 'European' university is the University of Bologna. Neither was founded by religion.
 
2014-01-19 01:45:33 PM  

jaylectricity: This could never happen in America.


Because it already did?
criticsandbuilders.typepad.com

Or because it's a short couple of steps to imagine it could again?
www.fem2pt0.com

I realize odds are excellent that you're trolling, but don't for a second think that some short-dicked, embittered, god-addled loser isn't thinking "putting women back in their place" isn't an excellent idea.
 
2014-01-19 01:49:47 PM  

jso2897: subsetzero: Third world dung heap.  Farkem.....

How 'bout we just stand off at a safe distance and watch 'em fark each orther?


Like Syria, you mean?
 
2014-01-19 02:06:23 PM  

Valiente: jso2897: subsetzero: Third world dung heap.  Farkem.....

How 'bout we just stand off at a safe distance and watch 'em fark each orther?

Like Syria, you mean?


Syria is farked if we do something and farked if we dont.  The US can not solve that riddle.   Sucks that a civil war is going on there but there is a lot of bloodshed going on all over the world.  Hell look at Africa.  Hell look at Mexico, which is actually connected to the US.  78,000 people have died in Mexico since the drug war kicked off in 2006.  Syria death toll is higher in a shorter time yes but still thats not the point.   What would you suggest the US or the world do for that matter on Syria?  There is not an  easy answer.  The main reason why Syria gets more news coverage is because its neighbor is Israel.  They've got to be worried about any outcome in Syria.  If Bassard wins he will strike Israel for them striking Syria. He has promised that on worldwide news.  If Bassard loses then you've got the potential for a terror network to do harm to Israel too.
 
2014-01-19 02:16:19 PM  
The future of the US if the Religious Right and there cronies in the GOP have there way.
 
2014-01-19 02:18:14 PM  

scroufus: The US liberals can not solve that riddle.


FTFY

/the only options that the US can pursue are to commit genocide or let genocide be committed against us
//all alternatives will be either too unpopular or too unrealistic
 
2014-01-19 02:20:45 PM  

namatad: It is interesting that you dont hear a lot about how to fix places like Somalia, Haiti, NK, etc etc etc


What exploitable resources do they have?

I was surprised to find that Somalia has (to quote Wikipedia) "untapped reserves of numerous natural resources, including uranium, iron ore, tin, gypsum, bauxite, copper, salt and natural gas." Maybe even OIL. So that country might be worth "liberating." Or is that being done already? It's hard to tell with all the conflicting information coming out.

OTOH Haiti's been picked pretty clean for 400 years. Hiring the men as mercenaries might be all it's worth.

The problems with Best Korea are how many civilians we'd have to kill and the hell we'd catch from Russia and China; it might be better to get China to liberate it like it did Tibet and then create a favorable climate for investment and commerce. I can't say many good things about the Chinese government and current social system but "at least it beats North Korea" is all that's needed here.

Anyway. NB you can't fix another country without conquering it first.


 
2014-01-19 02:23:22 PM  

Tatterdemalian: scroufus: The US liberals can not solve that riddle.

FTFY

/the only options that the US can pursue are to commit genocide or let genocide be committed against us
//all alternatives will be either too unpopular or too unrealistic


If you really think its one side vs the other on this issue you are sadly mistaken.  Its rich people with interest in that area.  Money knows no political side.   McCain supported striking Syria.  I dont see him as a liberal.
 
2014-01-19 02:23:52 PM  

Tatterdemalian: scroufus: The US liberals can not solve that riddle.

FTFY

/the only options that the US can pursue are to commit genocide or let genocide be committed against us
//all alternatives will be either too unpopular or too unrealistic


img.fark.net
 
2014-01-19 02:32:11 PM  
Lots of hate here from people who might not get the whole story.

Much of what we see in the Middle East today comes from a combination of influences from outside of it.  Whether it is about British meddling in local affairs with some Japanese influence to accentuate the situation ("Western Palestine" aka Israel and assorted Territories, depending on the map you look at) or the threat of USSR takeover (Iran 1946, Iran 1953, Afghanistan 1979) or the US rooting out a potentially severe economic threat (Iraq 1990, Iran 1953, Iraq 2003).  Many countries in this area were worrisome because of the American strategy of cordoning off the borders of the USSR during the Cold War with stronger allies when possible to prevent the possibility of "domino theory" from being realized.
 
2014-01-19 02:33:25 PM  

scroufus: orclover: Its going to be a sad day when that Afghani girl goes back to her homeland and the Taliban get around to burning her at the stake and show it on youtube.  The only thing we should be building in the middle east is a concrete dome over it all.

what are you 12 or 60?


So you believe the Taliban will be welcoming her back as a hero then?  Whate are you?  Asleep?
 
2014-01-19 02:34:26 PM  

orclover: scroufus: orclover: Its going to be a sad day when that Afghani girl goes back to her homeland and the Taliban get around to burning her at the stake and show it on youtube.  The only thing we should be building in the middle east is a concrete dome over it all.

what are you 12 or 60?

So you believe the Taliban will be welcoming her back as a hero then?  Whate are you?  Asleep?


If you think I was referring to the girl and not the giant dome then you are 12.
 
2014-01-19 03:01:51 PM  

OscarTamerz: Nobody ever remembers Hitler was democratically elected.


Just like Bolsheviks were democratically elected in 1907
 
2014-01-19 03:07:02 PM  

jso2897: Intelligent and stupid people, respectively, often examine the same facts, and arrive at different conclusions.
Upon examining the facts at hand here, and intelligent person might conclude that religious fanatics and fundamentalists are an obstacle to human progress, and should be blocked from power as much as possible.
A stupid person might conclude that "Muslims are bad", and that we need to bankrupt ourselves in a futile attempt to kill them all.
Same facts - different brains.


"Extremists" of any sort are bad, because a balanced and moderate life is a happy one. You're making as bad a generalization in your "intelligent" statement as you are in your "stupid" one. Most of the atrocities attributed to your religious fanatics aren't extreme religious at all, but go against the tenets of the religion in question itself. It's simply one or two individuals twisting that religion to their own goals over the weak-willed, no worse or different than say a far-right or far-left politician lying to whip their constituency up.

Even as a non-christian, I'd be quite happy living in an extremist Christian state, that is, one that espouses and puts forward policy based on everything Jesus said. It's the evils of man that causes shiat like "religious-based" violence in general.

Of course, it's also hard to defend any religion who's canon flatly states in plain print it's perfectly fine to murder (or do worse) folks because they don't believe in your particular brand of god. That's quite the problem.
 
2014-01-19 03:08:52 PM  

scroufus: Valiente: jso2897: subsetzero: Third world dung heap.  Farkem.....

How 'bout we just stand off at a safe distance and watch 'em fark each orther?

Like Syria, you mean?

Syria is farked if we do something and farked if we dont.  The US can not solve that riddle.   Sucks that a civil war is going on there but there is a lot of bloodshed going on all over the world.  Hell look at Africa.  Hell look at Mexico, which is actually connected to the US.  78,000 people have died in Mexico since the drug war kicked off in 2006.  Syria death toll is higher in a shorter time yes but still thats not the point.   What would you suggest the US or the world do for that matter on Syria?  There is not an  easy answer.  The main reason why Syria gets more news coverage is because its neighbor is Israel.  They've got to be worried about any outcome in Syria.  If Bassard wins he will strike Israel for them striking Syria. He has promised that on worldwide news.  If Bassard loses then you've got the potential for a terror network to do harm to Israel too.


I would suggest that Saudi with money and Turkey with a huge army invade and destroy Assad in under a week and then divide the territory between them. The secular former Syrians can head north, the nutty Wahhabis south and the Alawites can fark themselves.
 
2014-01-19 03:18:32 PM  

LewDux: OscarTamerz: Nobody ever remembers Hitler was democratically elected.

Just like Bolsheviks were democratically elected in 1907


Dude. Wrong revolution.
 
2014-01-19 03:28:08 PM  

The One True TheDavid: I was opposed to the Soviet attempt to colonize Afghanistan because it was equivalent to the US "presence" in Vietnam. Back then it was hard to imagine anything like the Taliban happening anywhere; indeed it was hard to foresee what the Twelvers would get up to next door, which is bad enough.

Of course when you look at photos like these you've got to understand such "Westernized" people comprised the richest few percent of Afghans, the upper-middles who ran things for them, and their clerical help; such people who could took off when the Stalinists took over, long before there was any real need to.

Outside the biggest metro areas it was always medieval, full of mullahs farking goats.


It should not be hard to imagine anything radically changing. 1920s Weimar Germany was a very liberal and tolerant place with lots and lots of rampant homosexuality and transvestites. Look at what 1930s Germany was like.

If the gheys keep winning Im afriad 2020s america will look like 1930s Germany after the eventual backlash. Of course when our fascis comes it will be wrapped in the flag and the bible.
 
2014-01-19 03:35:11 PM  
Fascis, you say? What a load. Or bundle.
 
2014-01-19 03:39:52 PM  

Valiente: scroufus: Valiente: jso2897: subsetzero: Third world dung heap.  Farkem.....

How 'bout we just stand off at a safe distance and watch 'em fark each orther?

Like Syria, you mean?

Syria is farked if we do something and farked if we dont.  The US can not solve that riddle.   Sucks that a civil war is going on there but there is a lot of bloodshed going on all over the world.  Hell look at Africa.  Hell look at Mexico, which is actually connected to the US.  78,000 people have died in Mexico since the drug war kicked off in 2006.  Syria death toll is higher in a shorter time yes but still thats not the point.   What would you suggest the US or the world do for that matter on Syria?  There is not an  easy answer.  The main reason why Syria gets more news coverage is because its neighbor is Israel.  They've got to be worried about any outcome in Syria.  If Bassard wins he will strike Israel for them striking Syria. He has promised that on worldwide news.  If Bassard loses then you've got the potential for a terror network to do harm to Israel too.

I would suggest that Saudi with money and Turkey with a huge army invade and destroy Assad in under a week and then divide the territory between them. The secular former Syrians can head north, the nutty Wahhabis south and the Alawites can fark themselves.


You still have the issue of Israel and then you are gonna add in Iran to the mix.  Iran and Saudi dont like each other at all and they will be damned if they are gonna let a Saudi backed army march on their doorstep.   Its a very complex situation there.  Best thing to do is let it be and let it burn itself out and then assist the damage.  Lots of people will die if you do something or if you dont do something there.  At least with letting it self burn itself out they can not place blame on any other nation.
 
2014-01-19 04:04:46 PM  

scroufus: orclover: scroufus: orclover: Its going to be a sad day when that Afghani girl goes back to her homeland and the Taliban get around to burning her at the stake and show it on youtube.  The only thing we should be building in the middle east is a concrete dome over it all.

what are you 12 or 60?

So you believe the Taliban will be welcoming her back as a hero then?  Whate are you?  Asleep?

If you think I was referring to the girl and not the giant dome then you are 12.


Ah so you do believe in the continued obstruction and intervention in middle eastern nations as a American policy?  Good to know.
 
2014-01-19 04:13:06 PM  

orclover: scroufus: orclover: scroufus: orclover: Its going to be a sad day when that Afghani girl goes back to her homeland and the Taliban get around to burning her at the stake and show it on youtube.  The only thing we should be building in the middle east is a concrete dome over it all.

what are you 12 or 60?

So you believe the Taliban will be welcoming her back as a hero then?  Whate are you?  Asleep?

If you think I was referring to the girl and not the giant dome then you are 12.

Ah so you do believe in the continued obstruction and intervention in middle eastern nations as a American policy?  Good to know.


No I am saying it doesnt matter.  If the USA doesnt do another super power will rise up and do or the middle east will rise up and do it to someone else.    Thats how things have worked for a long ass time and will continue to work that way for a long ass time.  Why?  Because no one has invented and asshole gun that only kills assholes and leaves non assholes alone.   Go look through out history its always been the stronger country doing this to weaker countries for their own gain and by their own gain I mean the people on the top end of the stronger country.     Just be glad you are living in the stronger nation and not the weaker one.
 
2014-01-19 07:00:53 PM  

Terrible Old Man: Of course, it's also hard to defend any religion who's canon flatly states in plain print it's perfectly fine to murder (or do worse) folks because they don't believe in your particular brand of god. That's quite the problem.


Judaism and Islam fit that. Christianity not so much, if you restrict "canon" to the New Testament and not the ravings of popes and "prophets" and if you leave out the "Old Testament," especially the parts about slaughtering Jebusites et al. and stoning people who say "let's worship other gods."

Now watch, somebody's going to chirp up to call me a "hater" without having any idea that there are several places in the Hebrew Bible and Quran that prescribe such killing. Hint: read the scriptures before you defend them.

And yes I know that according to orthodox Judaism the written Torah is less important than the Talmud, and that in the Quran some verses abrogate others; the problem is that the "bad parts" are still there in the revealed Scripture and that not even every religious scholar in the respective version of the respective religion agrees that Y totally wipes out X in every case (if at all).

It's too bad that cutting out the parts of the Semitic scriptures that offend modern liberal sensitivities and/or "are not meant to be practiced in these times" would make for very short books.

And by the way, in case some n00b wants to jump in, I am not claiming that the New Testament and/or Christianity are in any way "better" than any other scripture or religion.

(Did I leave anything out?)
 
2014-01-19 07:05:24 PM  

The One True TheDavid: Terrible Old Man: Of course, it's also hard to defend any religion who's canon flatly states in plain print it's perfectly fine to murder (or do worse) folks because they don't believe in your particular brand of god. That's quite the problem.

Judaism and Islam fit that. Christianity not so much, if you restrict "canon" to the New Testament and not the ravings of popes and "prophets" and if you leave out the "Old Testament," especially the parts about slaughtering Jebusites et al. and stoning people who say "let's worship other gods."

Now watch, somebody's going to chirp up to call me a "hater" without having any idea that there are several places in the Hebrew Bible and Quran that prescribe such killing. Hint: read the scriptures before you defend them.

And yes I know that according to orthodox Judaism the written Torah is less important than the Talmud, and that in the Quran some verses abrogate others; the problem is that the "bad parts" are still there in the revealed Scripture and that not even every religious scholar in the respective version of the respective religion agrees that Y totally wipes out X in every case (if at all).

It's too bad that cutting out the parts of the Semitic scriptures that offend modern liberal sensitivities and/or "are not meant to be practiced in these times" would make for very short books.

And by the way, in case some n00b wants to jump in, I am not claiming that the New Testament and/or Christianity are in any way "better" than any other scripture or religion.

(Did I leave anything out?)


Yes.  Fark you thats why
 
2014-01-19 07:08:35 PM  

The One True TheDavid: Christianity not so much, if you restrict "canon" to the New Testament and not the ravings of popes and "prophets" and if you leave out the "Old Testament," especially the parts about slaughtering Jebusites et al. and stoning people who say "let's worship other gods."


The problem with that is that A) Jesus himself says you can't throw out the Old Testament, and B) much of Christian law, such as Paul's condemnation of gay people, is based on the Old Testament.
 
2014-01-19 07:20:26 PM  

grumpfuff: The One True TheDavid: Christianity not so much, if you restrict "canon" to the New Testament and not the ravings of popes and "prophets" and if you leave out the "Old Testament," especially the parts about slaughtering Jebusites et al. and stoning people who say "let's worship other gods."

The problem with that is that A) Jesus himself says you can't throw out the Old Testament, and B) much of Christian law, such as Paul's condemnation of gay people, is based on the Old Testament.


But I was trying to be nice to an OPPRESSED MINORITY!!!
 
2014-01-19 07:32:15 PM  
They had me right up until this:

"Queen Soraya reigned in Afghanistan with her husband King Amanullah Khan from 1919 to 1929. She would be slut-shamed ..."

Slut-shamed? Right, let's view everything through the trendy lens of 2014 American pop culture. That'll help.

/sarcasm
 
2014-01-19 07:34:55 PM  

The One True TheDavid: grumpfuff: The One True TheDavid: Christianity not so much, if you restrict "canon" to the New Testament and not the ravings of popes and "prophets" and if you leave out the "Old Testament," especially the parts about slaughtering Jebusites et al. and stoning people who say "let's worship other gods."

The problem with that is that A) Jesus himself says you can't throw out the Old Testament, and B) much of Christian law, such as Paul's condemnation of gay people, is based on the Old Testament.

But I was trying to be nice to an OPPRESSED MINORITY!!!


I'm not that generous.
 
2014-01-19 07:46:57 PM  

hubiestubert: cryinoutloud: hubiestubert: But it is understandable. Like Chris Rock said, "you gotta look at OJ's situation. He's paying $25,000 a month in alimony, got another man driving around in his car and f*cking his wife in a house he's still paying the mortgage on. Now I'm not saying he should have killed her... but I understand."

Don't even post that shiat, hubie, not even as an aside. That quote right there is the reason I farking hate Chris Rock. Somebody understands how a person could kill their ex? That's funny? That's not a joke, not in any goddamn universe anywhere. That's pathetic. She wasn't his wife anymore, she didn't get that kind of money from him, and they were divorced. Whatever she did with her life after that was HER LIFE. Unless, of course, you see things like OJ Simpson did.

My ex said that very thing to me after I left him--"Now I understand how people murder their exes"--and I assure you, it is never a joke.
Now you all carry on with your Afghanistan flamewar, I'm out of here.

Understanding the source of anger is the first step to overcoming it. Justification is built up to give it vent, but you have to understand the source before you can get over that hill and deal with the real issues. Understanding the source of anger isn't justifying it, or accepting the results as justified. We can't afford to NOT understand where the anger comes from in these cases. Not in the Middle East, not in divorce court either. Too often we ignore the sources of folk's feelings of slight, how they feel they've been thwarted, or wronged, and that often leads folks to feel that they have to take matters into their own hands. It makes things worse to not acknowledge where the anger comes from.


Understanding the source is one thing. Using that understanding to justify murder (the action taken) is another.
 
2014-01-19 07:59:39 PM  
Education campaigns made the nation what it is, education is what will fix it.
supportdanielboyd.files.wordpress.com
 
2014-01-19 08:36:43 PM  
Iran was the exact same way before the Islamists took over. This one is a great movie about that:

t0.gstatic.com
 
2014-01-19 11:01:18 PM  

jaybeezey: So it's ok to blow up people who you feel have slighted you? I'm just trying to understand the way the left thinks.


The left? How would I know how the left thinks? I'm so far to the right that I think Reagan and Gingrich are a couple of commie pinkos.

But, to answer your question:
First, it's not a matter of the people in the mid-east "feel" that we have "slighted" them. I won't cover all the relevant history, but we've been robbing, raping, pillaging and plundering the mid-east for a long, long time. The immense suffering we have inflicted on them, without the slightest provocation, cannot be denied by anybody who is even slightly aware of history. And, yes, everybody has a right to defend themselves, in whatever way that they can. Calling people "terrorists" because they won't (can't) fight by the rules that WE set (and set specifically to prevent them from being able to fight back) is disingenuous at best. They are terrorists because they aren't wearing uniforms? Duh... would you be broadcasting your intentions if the situation were reversed? Of course you wouldn't. If a foreign army invaded the US, toppled the government, imposed a military dictatorship, and was on a rampage thru your city, would you take up "terrorism" or would you head down to the nearest uniform shop to buy a uniform, you know, to make the fight "fair?" The popular consensus in the US is that collateral casualties in war are no biggie; the country, as a whole, deserved it. Well, the same can be applied to 9/11. It sucks for those who were killed, but, as a country, we most certainly deserved it.
 
2014-01-19 11:20:46 PM  
hubiestubert: We have to engage folks, not just in a tactical fashion, and shoot motherf*ckers, but to help them build more, to forge their own plans, and to help them defend it from the opportunistic bastiches both from the West, and the thugs who see opportunity rising from aid coming in--and the factionalistic bastiches who see opportunity to get some payback for grief years ago.

I understand the drive to just want to level sh*t, because that's easier than the real job.


Sounds good in theory, but there's no way to put it into practice, mainly because almost all of those in the US, from the policy makers to the defense contractors down to the foot soldiers, is in the "yeah, I'm good with this sh*tty situation, because I'mma get paid" camp. And virtually NONE of them are even remotely interested in what the people of the mid-east want.
 
2014-01-19 11:24:04 PM  

Tatterdemalian: scroufus: The US liberals can not solve that riddle.

FTFY

/the only options that the US can pursue are to commit genocide or let genocide be committed against us
//all alternatives will be either too unpopular or too unrealistic


Nobody is going to commit genocide against us. We're fighting a bunch of semi-literate peasants whose net worth consists of a few goats and some rusty AK-47s. Any perceived threat is imaginary.
 
2014-01-20 01:25:45 AM  

Son of Thunder: Name one time when atheism has been made the official policy of a government, and the outcome has NOT been mass slaughter.


Communist personality cults are not atheistic in nature.  Same mental bug, different exploit.
 
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