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(Dangerous Minds)   Hey look at these old photos of this secular enlightened country where women wore short skirts, went to co-ed universities, voted, had equal rights and...Wait, that's what Afghanistan was like before the Taliban   (dangerousminds.net) divider line 184
    More: Interesting, Taliban, Afghanistan, dolls  
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20341 clicks; posted to Main » on 19 Jan 2014 at 6:39 AM (30 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-01-19 01:31:29 PM

grumpfuff: Gordon Bennett: JohnnyC: The first 'modern university' taught religion, medicine, and engineering. It wasn't created by religion, it was created by society to teach the things that were important to them at the time (which included more than religion).

What university is this? The oldest I know of is the University of Bologna, founded by students in 1088 to study Roman law.

I *think* he was referring to the institutes of higher learning in places like ancient Greece.


You are correct. I was referring to the The Platonic Academy (387 BC) in ancient Greece. I think the oldest, 'European' university is the University of Bologna. Neither was founded by religion.
 
2014-01-19 01:45:33 PM

jaylectricity: This could never happen in America.


Because it already did?
criticsandbuilders.typepad.com

Or because it's a short couple of steps to imagine it could again?
www.fem2pt0.com

I realize odds are excellent that you're trolling, but don't for a second think that some short-dicked, embittered, god-addled loser isn't thinking "putting women back in their place" isn't an excellent idea.
 
2014-01-19 01:49:47 PM

jso2897: subsetzero: Third world dung heap.  Farkem.....

How 'bout we just stand off at a safe distance and watch 'em fark each orther?


Like Syria, you mean?
 
2014-01-19 02:06:23 PM

Valiente: jso2897: subsetzero: Third world dung heap.  Farkem.....

How 'bout we just stand off at a safe distance and watch 'em fark each orther?

Like Syria, you mean?


Syria is farked if we do something and farked if we dont.  The US can not solve that riddle.   Sucks that a civil war is going on there but there is a lot of bloodshed going on all over the world.  Hell look at Africa.  Hell look at Mexico, which is actually connected to the US.  78,000 people have died in Mexico since the drug war kicked off in 2006.  Syria death toll is higher in a shorter time yes but still thats not the point.   What would you suggest the US or the world do for that matter on Syria?  There is not an  easy answer.  The main reason why Syria gets more news coverage is because its neighbor is Israel.  They've got to be worried about any outcome in Syria.  If Bassard wins he will strike Israel for them striking Syria. He has promised that on worldwide news.  If Bassard loses then you've got the potential for a terror network to do harm to Israel too.
 
2014-01-19 02:16:19 PM
The future of the US if the Religious Right and there cronies in the GOP have there way.
 
2014-01-19 02:18:14 PM

scroufus: The US liberals can not solve that riddle.


FTFY

/the only options that the US can pursue are to commit genocide or let genocide be committed against us
//all alternatives will be either too unpopular or too unrealistic
 
2014-01-19 02:20:45 PM

namatad: It is interesting that you dont hear a lot about how to fix places like Somalia, Haiti, NK, etc etc etc


What exploitable resources do they have?

I was surprised to find that Somalia has (to quote Wikipedia) "untapped reserves of numerous natural resources, including uranium, iron ore, tin, gypsum, bauxite, copper, salt and natural gas." Maybe even OIL. So that country might be worth "liberating." Or is that being done already? It's hard to tell with all the conflicting information coming out.

OTOH Haiti's been picked pretty clean for 400 years. Hiring the men as mercenaries might be all it's worth.

The problems with Best Korea are how many civilians we'd have to kill and the hell we'd catch from Russia and China; it might be better to get China to liberate it like it did Tibet and then create a favorable climate for investment and commerce. I can't say many good things about the Chinese government and current social system but "at least it beats North Korea" is all that's needed here.

Anyway. NB you can't fix another country without conquering it first.


 
2014-01-19 02:23:22 PM

Tatterdemalian: scroufus: The US liberals can not solve that riddle.

FTFY

/the only options that the US can pursue are to commit genocide or let genocide be committed against us
//all alternatives will be either too unpopular or too unrealistic


If you really think its one side vs the other on this issue you are sadly mistaken.  Its rich people with interest in that area.  Money knows no political side.   McCain supported striking Syria.  I dont see him as a liberal.
 
2014-01-19 02:23:52 PM

Tatterdemalian: scroufus: The US liberals can not solve that riddle.

FTFY

/the only options that the US can pursue are to commit genocide or let genocide be committed against us
//all alternatives will be either too unpopular or too unrealistic


img.fark.net
 
2014-01-19 02:32:11 PM
Lots of hate here from people who might not get the whole story.

Much of what we see in the Middle East today comes from a combination of influences from outside of it.  Whether it is about British meddling in local affairs with some Japanese influence to accentuate the situation ("Western Palestine" aka Israel and assorted Territories, depending on the map you look at) or the threat of USSR takeover (Iran 1946, Iran 1953, Afghanistan 1979) or the US rooting out a potentially severe economic threat (Iraq 1990, Iran 1953, Iraq 2003).  Many countries in this area were worrisome because of the American strategy of cordoning off the borders of the USSR during the Cold War with stronger allies when possible to prevent the possibility of "domino theory" from being realized.
 
2014-01-19 02:33:25 PM

scroufus: orclover: Its going to be a sad day when that Afghani girl goes back to her homeland and the Taliban get around to burning her at the stake and show it on youtube.  The only thing we should be building in the middle east is a concrete dome over it all.

what are you 12 or 60?


So you believe the Taliban will be welcoming her back as a hero then?  Whate are you?  Asleep?
 
2014-01-19 02:34:26 PM

orclover: scroufus: orclover: Its going to be a sad day when that Afghani girl goes back to her homeland and the Taliban get around to burning her at the stake and show it on youtube.  The only thing we should be building in the middle east is a concrete dome over it all.

what are you 12 or 60?

So you believe the Taliban will be welcoming her back as a hero then?  Whate are you?  Asleep?


If you think I was referring to the girl and not the giant dome then you are 12.
 
2014-01-19 03:01:51 PM

OscarTamerz: Nobody ever remembers Hitler was democratically elected.


Just like Bolsheviks were democratically elected in 1907
 
2014-01-19 03:07:02 PM

jso2897: Intelligent and stupid people, respectively, often examine the same facts, and arrive at different conclusions.
Upon examining the facts at hand here, and intelligent person might conclude that religious fanatics and fundamentalists are an obstacle to human progress, and should be blocked from power as much as possible.
A stupid person might conclude that "Muslims are bad", and that we need to bankrupt ourselves in a futile attempt to kill them all.
Same facts - different brains.


"Extremists" of any sort are bad, because a balanced and moderate life is a happy one. You're making as bad a generalization in your "intelligent" statement as you are in your "stupid" one. Most of the atrocities attributed to your religious fanatics aren't extreme religious at all, but go against the tenets of the religion in question itself. It's simply one or two individuals twisting that religion to their own goals over the weak-willed, no worse or different than say a far-right or far-left politician lying to whip their constituency up.

Even as a non-christian, I'd be quite happy living in an extremist Christian state, that is, one that espouses and puts forward policy based on everything Jesus said. It's the evils of man that causes shiat like "religious-based" violence in general.

Of course, it's also hard to defend any religion who's canon flatly states in plain print it's perfectly fine to murder (or do worse) folks because they don't believe in your particular brand of god. That's quite the problem.
 
2014-01-19 03:08:52 PM

scroufus: Valiente: jso2897: subsetzero: Third world dung heap.  Farkem.....

How 'bout we just stand off at a safe distance and watch 'em fark each orther?

Like Syria, you mean?

Syria is farked if we do something and farked if we dont.  The US can not solve that riddle.   Sucks that a civil war is going on there but there is a lot of bloodshed going on all over the world.  Hell look at Africa.  Hell look at Mexico, which is actually connected to the US.  78,000 people have died in Mexico since the drug war kicked off in 2006.  Syria death toll is higher in a shorter time yes but still thats not the point.   What would you suggest the US or the world do for that matter on Syria?  There is not an  easy answer.  The main reason why Syria gets more news coverage is because its neighbor is Israel.  They've got to be worried about any outcome in Syria.  If Bassard wins he will strike Israel for them striking Syria. He has promised that on worldwide news.  If Bassard loses then you've got the potential for a terror network to do harm to Israel too.


I would suggest that Saudi with money and Turkey with a huge army invade and destroy Assad in under a week and then divide the territory between them. The secular former Syrians can head north, the nutty Wahhabis south and the Alawites can fark themselves.
 
2014-01-19 03:18:32 PM

LewDux: OscarTamerz: Nobody ever remembers Hitler was democratically elected.

Just like Bolsheviks were democratically elected in 1907


Dude. Wrong revolution.
 
2014-01-19 03:28:08 PM

The One True TheDavid: I was opposed to the Soviet attempt to colonize Afghanistan because it was equivalent to the US "presence" in Vietnam. Back then it was hard to imagine anything like the Taliban happening anywhere; indeed it was hard to foresee what the Twelvers would get up to next door, which is bad enough.

Of course when you look at photos like these you've got to understand such "Westernized" people comprised the richest few percent of Afghans, the upper-middles who ran things for them, and their clerical help; such people who could took off when the Stalinists took over, long before there was any real need to.

Outside the biggest metro areas it was always medieval, full of mullahs farking goats.


It should not be hard to imagine anything radically changing. 1920s Weimar Germany was a very liberal and tolerant place with lots and lots of rampant homosexuality and transvestites. Look at what 1930s Germany was like.

If the gheys keep winning Im afriad 2020s america will look like 1930s Germany after the eventual backlash. Of course when our fascis comes it will be wrapped in the flag and the bible.
 
2014-01-19 03:35:11 PM
Fascis, you say? What a load. Or bundle.
 
2014-01-19 03:39:52 PM

Valiente: scroufus: Valiente: jso2897: subsetzero: Third world dung heap.  Farkem.....

How 'bout we just stand off at a safe distance and watch 'em fark each orther?

Like Syria, you mean?

Syria is farked if we do something and farked if we dont.  The US can not solve that riddle.   Sucks that a civil war is going on there but there is a lot of bloodshed going on all over the world.  Hell look at Africa.  Hell look at Mexico, which is actually connected to the US.  78,000 people have died in Mexico since the drug war kicked off in 2006.  Syria death toll is higher in a shorter time yes but still thats not the point.   What would you suggest the US or the world do for that matter on Syria?  There is not an  easy answer.  The main reason why Syria gets more news coverage is because its neighbor is Israel.  They've got to be worried about any outcome in Syria.  If Bassard wins he will strike Israel for them striking Syria. He has promised that on worldwide news.  If Bassard loses then you've got the potential for a terror network to do harm to Israel too.

I would suggest that Saudi with money and Turkey with a huge army invade and destroy Assad in under a week and then divide the territory between them. The secular former Syrians can head north, the nutty Wahhabis south and the Alawites can fark themselves.


You still have the issue of Israel and then you are gonna add in Iran to the mix.  Iran and Saudi dont like each other at all and they will be damned if they are gonna let a Saudi backed army march on their doorstep.   Its a very complex situation there.  Best thing to do is let it be and let it burn itself out and then assist the damage.  Lots of people will die if you do something or if you dont do something there.  At least with letting it self burn itself out they can not place blame on any other nation.
 
2014-01-19 04:04:46 PM

scroufus: orclover: scroufus: orclover: Its going to be a sad day when that Afghani girl goes back to her homeland and the Taliban get around to burning her at the stake and show it on youtube.  The only thing we should be building in the middle east is a concrete dome over it all.

what are you 12 or 60?

So you believe the Taliban will be welcoming her back as a hero then?  Whate are you?  Asleep?

If you think I was referring to the girl and not the giant dome then you are 12.


Ah so you do believe in the continued obstruction and intervention in middle eastern nations as a American policy?  Good to know.
 
2014-01-19 04:13:06 PM

orclover: scroufus: orclover: scroufus: orclover: Its going to be a sad day when that Afghani girl goes back to her homeland and the Taliban get around to burning her at the stake and show it on youtube.  The only thing we should be building in the middle east is a concrete dome over it all.

what are you 12 or 60?

So you believe the Taliban will be welcoming her back as a hero then?  Whate are you?  Asleep?

If you think I was referring to the girl and not the giant dome then you are 12.

Ah so you do believe in the continued obstruction and intervention in middle eastern nations as a American policy?  Good to know.


No I am saying it doesnt matter.  If the USA doesnt do another super power will rise up and do or the middle east will rise up and do it to someone else.    Thats how things have worked for a long ass time and will continue to work that way for a long ass time.  Why?  Because no one has invented and asshole gun that only kills assholes and leaves non assholes alone.   Go look through out history its always been the stronger country doing this to weaker countries for their own gain and by their own gain I mean the people on the top end of the stronger country.     Just be glad you are living in the stronger nation and not the weaker one.
 
2014-01-19 07:00:53 PM

Terrible Old Man: Of course, it's also hard to defend any religion who's canon flatly states in plain print it's perfectly fine to murder (or do worse) folks because they don't believe in your particular brand of god. That's quite the problem.


Judaism and Islam fit that. Christianity not so much, if you restrict "canon" to the New Testament and not the ravings of popes and "prophets" and if you leave out the "Old Testament," especially the parts about slaughtering Jebusites et al. and stoning people who say "let's worship other gods."

Now watch, somebody's going to chirp up to call me a "hater" without having any idea that there are several places in the Hebrew Bible and Quran that prescribe such killing. Hint: read the scriptures before you defend them.

And yes I know that according to orthodox Judaism the written Torah is less important than the Talmud, and that in the Quran some verses abrogate others; the problem is that the "bad parts" are still there in the revealed Scripture and that not even every religious scholar in the respective version of the respective religion agrees that Y totally wipes out X in every case (if at all).

It's too bad that cutting out the parts of the Semitic scriptures that offend modern liberal sensitivities and/or "are not meant to be practiced in these times" would make for very short books.

And by the way, in case some n00b wants to jump in, I am not claiming that the New Testament and/or Christianity are in any way "better" than any other scripture or religion.

(Did I leave anything out?)
 
2014-01-19 07:05:24 PM

The One True TheDavid: Terrible Old Man: Of course, it's also hard to defend any religion who's canon flatly states in plain print it's perfectly fine to murder (or do worse) folks because they don't believe in your particular brand of god. That's quite the problem.

Judaism and Islam fit that. Christianity not so much, if you restrict "canon" to the New Testament and not the ravings of popes and "prophets" and if you leave out the "Old Testament," especially the parts about slaughtering Jebusites et al. and stoning people who say "let's worship other gods."

Now watch, somebody's going to chirp up to call me a "hater" without having any idea that there are several places in the Hebrew Bible and Quran that prescribe such killing. Hint: read the scriptures before you defend them.

And yes I know that according to orthodox Judaism the written Torah is less important than the Talmud, and that in the Quran some verses abrogate others; the problem is that the "bad parts" are still there in the revealed Scripture and that not even every religious scholar in the respective version of the respective religion agrees that Y totally wipes out X in every case (if at all).

It's too bad that cutting out the parts of the Semitic scriptures that offend modern liberal sensitivities and/or "are not meant to be practiced in these times" would make for very short books.

And by the way, in case some n00b wants to jump in, I am not claiming that the New Testament and/or Christianity are in any way "better" than any other scripture or religion.

(Did I leave anything out?)


Yes.  Fark you thats why
 
2014-01-19 07:08:35 PM

The One True TheDavid: Christianity not so much, if you restrict "canon" to the New Testament and not the ravings of popes and "prophets" and if you leave out the "Old Testament," especially the parts about slaughtering Jebusites et al. and stoning people who say "let's worship other gods."


The problem with that is that A) Jesus himself says you can't throw out the Old Testament, and B) much of Christian law, such as Paul's condemnation of gay people, is based on the Old Testament.
 
2014-01-19 07:20:26 PM

grumpfuff: The One True TheDavid: Christianity not so much, if you restrict "canon" to the New Testament and not the ravings of popes and "prophets" and if you leave out the "Old Testament," especially the parts about slaughtering Jebusites et al. and stoning people who say "let's worship other gods."

The problem with that is that A) Jesus himself says you can't throw out the Old Testament, and B) much of Christian law, such as Paul's condemnation of gay people, is based on the Old Testament.


But I was trying to be nice to an OPPRESSED MINORITY!!!
 
2014-01-19 07:32:15 PM
They had me right up until this:

"Queen Soraya reigned in Afghanistan with her husband King Amanullah Khan from 1919 to 1929. She would be slut-shamed ..."

Slut-shamed? Right, let's view everything through the trendy lens of 2014 American pop culture. That'll help.

/sarcasm
 
2014-01-19 07:34:55 PM

The One True TheDavid: grumpfuff: The One True TheDavid: Christianity not so much, if you restrict "canon" to the New Testament and not the ravings of popes and "prophets" and if you leave out the "Old Testament," especially the parts about slaughtering Jebusites et al. and stoning people who say "let's worship other gods."

The problem with that is that A) Jesus himself says you can't throw out the Old Testament, and B) much of Christian law, such as Paul's condemnation of gay people, is based on the Old Testament.

But I was trying to be nice to an OPPRESSED MINORITY!!!


I'm not that generous.
 
2014-01-19 07:46:57 PM

hubiestubert: cryinoutloud: hubiestubert: But it is understandable. Like Chris Rock said, "you gotta look at OJ's situation. He's paying $25,000 a month in alimony, got another man driving around in his car and f*cking his wife in a house he's still paying the mortgage on. Now I'm not saying he should have killed her... but I understand."

Don't even post that shiat, hubie, not even as an aside. That quote right there is the reason I farking hate Chris Rock. Somebody understands how a person could kill their ex? That's funny? That's not a joke, not in any goddamn universe anywhere. That's pathetic. She wasn't his wife anymore, she didn't get that kind of money from him, and they were divorced. Whatever she did with her life after that was HER LIFE. Unless, of course, you see things like OJ Simpson did.

My ex said that very thing to me after I left him--"Now I understand how people murder their exes"--and I assure you, it is never a joke.
Now you all carry on with your Afghanistan flamewar, I'm out of here.

Understanding the source of anger is the first step to overcoming it. Justification is built up to give it vent, but you have to understand the source before you can get over that hill and deal with the real issues. Understanding the source of anger isn't justifying it, or accepting the results as justified. We can't afford to NOT understand where the anger comes from in these cases. Not in the Middle East, not in divorce court either. Too often we ignore the sources of folk's feelings of slight, how they feel they've been thwarted, or wronged, and that often leads folks to feel that they have to take matters into their own hands. It makes things worse to not acknowledge where the anger comes from.


Understanding the source is one thing. Using that understanding to justify murder (the action taken) is another.
 
2014-01-19 07:59:39 PM
Education campaigns made the nation what it is, education is what will fix it.
supportdanielboyd.files.wordpress.com
 
2014-01-19 08:36:43 PM
Iran was the exact same way before the Islamists took over. This one is a great movie about that:

t0.gstatic.com
 
2014-01-19 11:01:18 PM

jaybeezey: So it's ok to blow up people who you feel have slighted you? I'm just trying to understand the way the left thinks.


The left? How would I know how the left thinks? I'm so far to the right that I think Reagan and Gingrich are a couple of commie pinkos.

But, to answer your question:
First, it's not a matter of the people in the mid-east "feel" that we have "slighted" them. I won't cover all the relevant history, but we've been robbing, raping, pillaging and plundering the mid-east for a long, long time. The immense suffering we have inflicted on them, without the slightest provocation, cannot be denied by anybody who is even slightly aware of history. And, yes, everybody has a right to defend themselves, in whatever way that they can. Calling people "terrorists" because they won't (can't) fight by the rules that WE set (and set specifically to prevent them from being able to fight back) is disingenuous at best. They are terrorists because they aren't wearing uniforms? Duh... would you be broadcasting your intentions if the situation were reversed? Of course you wouldn't. If a foreign army invaded the US, toppled the government, imposed a military dictatorship, and was on a rampage thru your city, would you take up "terrorism" or would you head down to the nearest uniform shop to buy a uniform, you know, to make the fight "fair?" The popular consensus in the US is that collateral casualties in war are no biggie; the country, as a whole, deserved it. Well, the same can be applied to 9/11. It sucks for those who were killed, but, as a country, we most certainly deserved it.
 
2014-01-19 11:20:46 PM
hubiestubert: We have to engage folks, not just in a tactical fashion, and shoot motherf*ckers, but to help them build more, to forge their own plans, and to help them defend it from the opportunistic bastiches both from the West, and the thugs who see opportunity rising from aid coming in--and the factionalistic bastiches who see opportunity to get some payback for grief years ago.

I understand the drive to just want to level sh*t, because that's easier than the real job.


Sounds good in theory, but there's no way to put it into practice, mainly because almost all of those in the US, from the policy makers to the defense contractors down to the foot soldiers, is in the "yeah, I'm good with this sh*tty situation, because I'mma get paid" camp. And virtually NONE of them are even remotely interested in what the people of the mid-east want.
 
2014-01-19 11:24:04 PM

Tatterdemalian: scroufus: The US liberals can not solve that riddle.

FTFY

/the only options that the US can pursue are to commit genocide or let genocide be committed against us
//all alternatives will be either too unpopular or too unrealistic


Nobody is going to commit genocide against us. We're fighting a bunch of semi-literate peasants whose net worth consists of a few goats and some rusty AK-47s. Any perceived threat is imaginary.
 
2014-01-20 01:25:45 AM

Son of Thunder: Name one time when atheism has been made the official policy of a government, and the outcome has NOT been mass slaughter.


Communist personality cults are not atheistic in nature.  Same mental bug, different exploit.
 
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