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(Brookhaven National Lab)   According to the data gathered, the Universe goes on forever, and the party never stops   (bnl.gov ) divider line
    More: Cool, universe, Sloan Digital Sky Survey, Einstein's General Theory of Relativity, Cosmological Constant, cosmic microwave background, dark matter, Brookhaven National Laboratory, Astronomical Society  
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3553 clicks; posted to Geek » on 18 Jan 2014 at 1:47 PM (2 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-01-18 11:51:20 AM  
Accuracy an Precision. I have to take a minute to remember the difference these days.
 
2014-01-18 12:19:23 PM  
This new evidence can also put a ding in some intelligent design theories.
 
2014-01-18 01:09:41 PM  
According to the data gathered, the Universe goes on forever, and the party never stops   ends

Robert Earl Keen is awesome live.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MJFtDXLKJ3g
 
2014-01-18 01:09:56 PM  
IIRC, infinite expansion means heat death of the universe.
 
2014-01-18 01:29:46 PM  

Torgo_of_Manos: According to the data gathered, the Universe goes on forever, and the party never stops    ends

Robert Earl Keen is awesome live.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MJFtDXLKJ3g


He is one of my favorites, This is the song that got me hooked. http://youtu.be/VN3wDgpuQ-I
 
2014-01-18 01:33:52 PM  

simplicimus: IIRC, infinite expansion means heat death of the universe.


Yeah, but it's a dry heat death.
 
2014-01-18 01:38:06 PM  

bearded clamorer: simplicimus: IIRC, infinite expansion means heat death of the universe.

Yeah, but it's a dry heat death.


So the universe turns into Arizona?
 
2014-01-18 01:53:51 PM  
Send some faxes. Like a boss.

Approve memos. Like a boss.

Measure the universe. LIKE A BOSS!
 
2014-01-18 02:00:02 PM  
wow, a party that never stops.  that would suck.

comedycentral.mtvnimages.com
 
2014-01-18 02:05:42 PM  
Cool because if the universe is infinite then I AM THE CENTER OF THE UNIVERSE, (The center is a point equidistant from the outside edges. If there is no outer edge all points are equidistant to the outside edge..
 
2014-01-18 02:05:52 PM  

antidisestablishmentarianism: Accuracy an Precision. I have to take a minute to remember the difference these days.


Accuracy would be like grouping darts together on any spot on the board. Precision is how close you are to the bullseye.

That's how I remember it.
 
2014-01-18 02:06:34 PM  

antidisestablishmentarianism: This new evidence can also put a ding in some intelligent design theories.


Turtles.
 
2014-01-18 02:09:00 PM  

wildsnowllama: antidisestablishmentarianism: Accuracy an Precision. I have to take a minute to remember the difference these days.

Accuracy would be like grouping darts together on any spot on the board. Precision is how close you are to the bullseye.

That's how I remember it.


And I screwed up. Flip it.
 
2014-01-18 02:10:01 PM  

wildsnowllama: antidisestablishmentarianism: Accuracy an Precision. I have to take a minute to remember the difference these days.

Accuracy would be like grouping darts together on any spot on the board. Precision is how close you are to the bullseye.

That's how I remember it.


Strike that, reverse it.
 
2014-01-18 02:11:16 PM  
Glory be to the Father,
and to the Son,
and to the Holy Spirit,
as it was in the beginning,
is now, and ever shall be,
world without end. Amen.
 
2014-01-18 02:11:49 PM  

antidisestablishmentarianism: This new evidence can also put a ding in some intelligent design theories.


"Ding"? You mean, in the sense that one might put a "ding" in this car?
i18.photobucket.com
 
2014-01-18 02:12:24 PM  

Frederf: wildsnowllama: antidisestablishmentarianism: Accuracy an Precision. I have to take a minute to remember the difference these days.

Accuracy would be like grouping darts together on any spot on the board. Precision is how close you are to the bullseye.

That's how I remember it.

Strike that, reverse it.


Yeah, I noticed. Thanks though.
 
2014-01-18 02:13:37 PM  

alaric3: Cool because if the universe is infinite then I AM THE CENTER OF THE UNIVERSE, (The center is a point equidistant from the outside edges. If there is no outer edge all points are equidistant to the outside edge..


Stop it. You're freakin' me out, man.
 
2014-01-18 02:19:23 PM  
Today the Baryon Oscillation Spectroscopic Survey (BOSS) Collaboration announced that BOSS has measured the scale of the universe to an accuracy of one percent. This and future measures at this precision are the key to determining the nature of dark energy.

Oh no.  It's back!

i162.photobucket.com
 
2014-01-18 02:19:23 PM  

jso2897: antidisestablishmentarianism: This new evidence can also put a ding in some intelligent design theories.

"Ding"? You mean, in the sense that one might put a "ding" in this car?
[i18.photobucket.com image 300x214]


Yeah, ignore my comment. When I finished reading the article this new data doesn't really change anything about the theory.
 
2014-01-18 02:20:52 PM  

Nick Nostril: alaric3: Cool because if the universe is infinite then I AM THE CENTER OF THE UNIVERSE, (The center is a point equidistant from the outside edges. If there is no outer edge all points are equidistant to the outside edge..

Stop it. You're freakin' me out, man.


img.gawkerassets.com
 
2014-01-18 02:24:04 PM  

alaric3: Cool because if the universe is infinite then I AM THE CENTER OF THE UNIVERSE, (The center is a point equidistant from the outside edges. If there is no outer edge all points are equidistant to the outside edge..


If there is no outer edge, then there is no center.
You don't exist.
QED
 
2014-01-18 02:30:15 PM  
Pics or it's a lie!
 
2014-01-18 02:48:46 PM  
I really do not understand how the universe can be infinite.

If it is infinite then how is it expending?

Doesn't an infinite universe disprove the big bang theory where the universe started from a finite point and expended from there? At what time did it go from finite to infinite?
 
2014-01-18 02:50:21 PM  

Torgo_of_Manos: According to the data gathered, the Universe goes on forever, and the party never stops    ends

Robert Earl Keen is awesome live.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MJFtDXLKJ3g


Came to say this.  Thank you , sir.
 
2014-01-18 02:55:30 PM  
There is a difference between whether the universe has an infinite size (extent) or whether it has an infinite amount of matter.

I cannot philosophically believe in an infinite amount of matter though size is ok.
 
2014-01-18 02:59:33 PM  
I've always like the idea of a universe that really isn't the universe until it's occupied by matter. Up until then it doesn't exist. Hard to imagine there's some line, edge, demarcation that's the one side of matter and on the other "side" there's nothing...and then becomes something what the matter expands into it. I can't get my little monkey brain around that.

*side is my word. It doesn't exist. It's the only word in English I could imagine to describe the state that exists...
 
2014-01-18 03:01:30 PM  

talkertopc: I really do not understand how the universe can be infinite.

If it is infinite then how is it expending?

Doesn't an infinite universe disprove the big bang theory where the universe started from a finite point and expended from there? At what time did it go from finite to infinite?


There are levels of infinity we are prepared to accept.

~i72.photobucket.com
 
2014-01-18 03:08:48 PM  
B-double-E-double-R-U-N, beer run?
 
2014-01-18 03:32:38 PM  

antidisestablishmentarianism: Accuracy an Precision. I have to take a minute to remember the difference these days.


Since, like a lot of words and phrases that only hold special meaning to a particular subset of humanity, wanna explain the difference?
 
2014-01-18 03:34:34 PM  

wildsnowllama: Frederf: wildsnowllama: antidisestablishmentarianism: Accuracy an Precision. I have to take a minute to remember the difference these days.

Accuracy would be like grouping darts together on any spot on the board. Precision is how close you are to the bullseye.

That's how I remember it.

Strike that, reverse it.

Yeah, I noticed. Thanks though.


Oh.
 
2014-01-18 03:41:05 PM  

talkertopc: I really do not understand how the universe can be infinite.

If it is infinite then how is it expending?

Doesn't an infinite universe disprove the big bang theory where the universe started from a finite point and expended from there? At what time did it go from finite to infinite?


The observable universe is finite. The unobservable universe beyond that? Who the fark knows, we can't observe it. Based on these results, it hasn't been ruled out as being infinite, but we'll probably never know.

There is a big bubble of space around us that we can see because light has had enough time to reach us. The farther away the light has traveled from, the older the "picture" we get. We can tell what the universe used to look like because we can still see it. The light from the period just after the Big Bang is know as the Cosmic Microwave Background Radiation. We can't see anything from before then because the universe was so dense at that point that it was opaque.

What we can tell is that everything we can currently see (which is also everything we will ever see for reasons I will get to in a moment) was all compressed into a very small space at that earliest visible point.

So then the question is "how can light that originated in a very small area still be coming from opposite ends of an observable universe that has a radius of over13 billion lightyears?" It's because the expansion of the universe isn't an expansion of matter within the universe, it's an expansion of space between matter.

So that point in space, not just the galaxies located there, but the actual point in space, that is 13 billion lightyears away, used to be right next to us. Space expanded at such a rate (and continues to do so today if you look at large enough scales) that what started out as, let's say, a few feet or miles or whatever when light originally left it's source became billions of lightyears by the time that light had finished it's journey.

And because the expansion maintains a constant proportion with distance, once you get past the bounds of the observable universe the rate of expansion is faster than the speed of light (which is allowable because it is the distance between objects that is growing; nothing is actually moving FTL) so the light from anything beyond the observable universe will never reach us.

Thus, everything we can see was once in a very small finite place, and is now in a very large finite space, everything beyond that which we can't see may be infinite but we don't know, and don't know what it used to be like in the past because we can't see it.
 
2014-01-18 03:43:33 PM  

talkertopc: I really do not understand how the universe can be infinite.

If it is infinite then how is it expending?

Doesn't an infinite universe disprove the big bang theory where the universe started from a finite point and expended from there? At what time did it go from finite to infinite?


The way I have always (tried to) understand it is the balloon analogy:

A balloon's surface is 2-dimensional, curved 3-dimensionally, with dots on its surface. As a 2D surface, you can travel 2Dly in any direction infinitely, yes? You just go 'round and 'round on the surface. Now, when you inflate the balloon, expanding it further into the 3rd dimension, the 2D surface is expanding -- it's still 2D, and still infinite 2Dly, but now all those dots are further apart from one another. The 2D "space" itself has gotten bigger.

Ditto the 3D universe. It's "surface" is 3D, curved 4-dimensionally. Which is hard to imagine, as we are only 3D critters; just imagine how hard it would be to explain 3D to a 2D critter and you'll see why you fathoming 4D is gonna be hard -- you have no frame of reference beyond your own 3D world with which to make analogies.

I could be wrong about all this, but it helps keep my head from exploding.
 
2014-01-18 03:46:43 PM  

talkertopc: I really do not understand how the universe can be infinite.

If it is infinite then how is it expending?

Doesn't an infinite universe disprove the big bang theory where the universe started from a finite point and expended from there? At what time did it go from finite to infinite?


Just remember that you're standing on a planet that's evolving
And revolving at nine hundred miles an hour
That's orbiting at nineteen miles a second, so it's reckoned
A sun that is the source of all our power
The sun and you and me and all the stars that we can see
Are moving at a million miles a day
In an outer spiral arm, at forty thousand miles an hour
Of the galaxy we call the 'milky way'
Our galaxy itself contains a hundred billion stars
It's a hundred thousand light years side to side
It bulges in the middle, sixteen thousand light years thick
But out by us, it's just three thousand light years wide
We're thirty thousand light years from galactic central point
We go 'round every two hundred million years
And our galaxy is only one of millions of billions
In this amazing and expanding universe
The universe itself keeps on expanding and expanding
In all of the directions it can whizz
As fast as it can go, the speed of light, you know
Twelve million miles a minute and that's the fastest speed there is
So remember, when you're feeling very small and insecure
How amazingly unlikely is your birth
And pray that there's intelligent life somewhere up in space
'Cause there's bugger all down here on Earth

Simple, really.
 
2014-01-18 03:50:37 PM  

Stone Meadow: talkertopc: I really do not understand how the universe can be infinite.

If it is infinite then how is it expending?

Doesn't an infinite universe disprove the big bang theory where the universe started from a finite point and expended from there? At what time did it go from finite to infinite?

There are levels of infinity we are prepared to accept.

~[i72.photobucket.com image 482x198]


Stereographic projections of a sphere are infinite, even though they describe a finite space. Same with spacetime. The 3 dimensional space projection may be infinite, but the 4D surface is most likely a hypersphere.
 
2014-01-18 03:54:49 PM  
And I was so happy because, man it was a nice thing
 
2014-01-18 04:13:45 PM  

simplicimus: IIRC, infinite expansion means heat death of the universe.


Until Multivac gets its shiat together.
 
2014-01-18 04:46:23 PM  
I would be a lot more comfortable with a pending big crunch. I guess the end coming in near infinite singularity is more comforting than uniformly distributed particles and heat death. Either way, I don't plan on being around for however it ends.
 
2014-01-18 04:59:02 PM  
The universe (space and time) is hyperspherical.  We think of it as infinite the way people 500 years ago thought of the Earth as flat.

Once Alcubierre drives allow for warp travel, we'll figure it out eventually as we fly around in our little ships, arriving in areas we didn't expect to be, allowing for accurate mapping.

We could theoretically start trying to figure this out now, assuming light also bends along the same curve as space.  We could try looking around for galaxies of similar sizes but different distances. If Galaxy A is 3 billion LY away, and Galaxy B is 8 billion LY away, and B looks predictably similar to how A would look after 5 billion years of evolving, then it might actually be the same galaxy being observed from different directions along the 3 dimensional hyperspherical "surface."

My friends used to always want to see me get stoned growing up, but when I finally got around to it, everyone was very disappointed that my brain didn't continue down this kind of track, but instead just got all paranoid and constipated.
 
2014-01-18 05:16:31 PM  

ArcadianRefugee: antidisestablishmentarianism: Accuracy an Precision. I have to take a minute to remember the difference these days.

Since, like a lot of words and phrases that only hold special meaning to a particular subset of humanity, wanna explain the difference?


Nah, I have a wicked headache already and started drinking.
 
2014-01-18 05:50:54 PM  

antidisestablishmentarianism: This new evidence can also put a ding in some intelligent design theories.


Not really.  Proving intelligent design has always been unnecessary to those who believe in it.  What is important is denying any evidence that contradicts their faith.
 
2014-01-18 06:32:41 PM  
img.pandawhale.com
 
2014-01-18 06:43:26 PM  

Delta1212: talkertopc:

...

So then the question is "how can light that originated in a very small area still be coming from opposite ends of an observable universe that has a radius of over13 billion lightyears?" It's because the expansion of the universe isn't an expansion of matter within the universe, it's an expansion of space between matter.


I love everything you're saying, but always get stuck on that part (I'm a chemist).

Is "expansion of space between matter" another way of saying "dispersal of particles in(to) an empty space"? Can it be viewed more or less as a simple explosion into infinite space, with the speed of light being merely a limitation on our ability to analyze it?
 
2014-01-18 06:44:06 PM  

wildsnowllama: Frederf: wildsnowllama: antidisestablishmentarianism: Accuracy an Precision. I have to take a minute to remember the difference these days.

Accuracy would be like grouping darts together on any spot on the board. Precision is how close you are to the bullseye.

That's how I remember it.

Strike that, reverse it.

Yeah, I noticed. Thanks though.


So when I piss on the seat it isn't because I'm imprecise, it's because I'm inaccurate?

/why not both?
 
2014-01-18 07:26:49 PM  

goatleggedfellow: Is "expansion of space between matter" another way of saying "dispersal of particles in(to) an empty space"?


Particles can't disperse into an empty space faster than the speed of light.  But particles can become separated faster than the speed of light.
 
2014-01-18 07:41:30 PM  

madgonad: I would be a lot more comfortable with a pending big crunch. I guess the end coming in near infinite singularity is more comforting than uniformly distributed particles and heat death. Either way, I don't plan on being around for however it ends.


If the Universe ends in heat-death rather than a Big Rip or a Big Crunch than at least it'll be around longer. I've always hoped (in an attempt at self-delusion) that if the Big Crunch did happen, the resulting singularity would be the starting point of another Big Bang. I think there are some at least semi-reputable theories that support this wistful line of though.
 
2014-01-18 08:04:10 PM  

antidisestablishmentarianism: This new evidence can also put a ding in some intelligent design theories.


You obviously haven't talked to a religious fanatic lately. Nothing EVER puts a ding in their intelligent design theories.
 
2014-01-18 08:05:44 PM  

RaisingKane: goatleggedfellow: Is "expansion of space between matter" another way of saying "dispersal of particles in(to) an empty space"?

Particles can't disperse into an empty space faster than the speed of light.  But particles can become separated faster than the speed of light.


I'm toying with the relativistic frames here... Particle A goes north from me at 99% the speed of light. Particle B goes south from me at 99% the speed of light. What's the relative speed of A to B? And that's where relativity drives me crazy. 1c + 1c =/= 2c. Or does it?
 
2014-01-18 08:40:55 PM  

wildcardjack: RaisingKane: goatleggedfellow: Is "expansion of space between matter" another way of saying "dispersal of particles in(to) an empty space"?

Particles can't disperse into an empty space faster than the speed of light.  But particles can become separated faster than the speed of light.

I'm toying with the relativistic frames here... Particle A goes north from me at 99% the speed of light. Particle B goes south from me at 99% the speed of light. What's the relative speed of A to B? And that's where relativity drives me crazy. 1c + 1c =/= 2c. Or does it?


Velocities don't actually add the way we think they do. At very low speeds, it's so close to 2 mph + 2 mph = 4 mph that you really can't tell the difference, but at higher speeds, it makes a very big difference indeed.

Rather than v1+v2, the actual formula is (v1+v2)/(1 + (v1*v2/c^2)).

So it's not c + c, but (c+c)/(1 + (c^2/c^2)) = 2c/2 = c.

/And in answer to your question, A and B would each see the other receding at 99.995% of light speed.
 
2014-01-18 08:46:01 PM  

Parallax: We could theoretically start trying to figure this out now, assuming light also bends along the same curve as space. We could try looking around for galaxies of similar sizes but different distances. If Galaxy A is 3 billion LY away, and Galaxy B is 8 billion LY away, and B looks predictably similar to how A would look after 5 billion years of evolving, then it might actually be the same galaxy being observed from different directions along the 3 dimensional hyperspherical "surface."


Shouldnt you switch A and B?
 
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